Re: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries

[Starlight Solar, Larry Crutcher]

Benn,

First off, there is never a reason to add acid. The acid/water mixture is very 
specific and should not be changed.

>From the moment a battery has been activated (electrolyte added), it is in a 
>discharge mode. The sulfuric acid in the electrolyte starts to be absorbed 
>into the plates (electrochemical process) creating lead sulfate. All new 
>batteries need to be initially charged to reverse this. Only then can you get 
>an accurate SG base reading to record in the log book.

New flooded battery charging process:
Start by charging the new battery at a relatively high voltage, about 2.47vpc @ 
77 degrees, until the current drops to about 0.5 amps per 100AH capacity. As 
long as the plates are covered, you do not need to add any water during this 
process. Turn the voltage up to about 2.6 volts per cell for at least a couple 
hours. You will notice heavy gassing so make sure they are vented well. Let 
batteries rest a while and take your SG reading. Only if necessary, add water 
to the proper level. Long battery life note: Do not discharge new batteries 
very deep until they have been cycled about 10 to 15 times.

About battery manufacture dates: 
Too often we have received batteries that have set for many months after 
manufacturing. We return these because the amorphous lead sulfate ions may have 
formed bonds to the plate that are (or may be) irreversible. This same effect 
is caused by undercharging a battery for long periods and it usually leads to 
premature failure. Any flooded battery setting for over 30 days should be fully 
recharged.

To answer your question about liquid volume, the plates are absorbent. They 
absorb acid while discharging and the acid is recombined with water when 
charging. So the level is in constant flux. That is why you should not add 
water to a discharged battery except to cover the plates; charge it first.

Much more than 2 cents but that's just me.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
www.starlightsolar.com
928-342-9103

  - Original Message - 
  From: benn kilburn 
  To: Wrenches 
  Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 11:12 AM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries


  Mick n' Nick,
  Thanks guys.  I shoulda mentioned that the date code says they were mfgrd the 
7th week of 2011 and the one exception, the 8th week.  So they haven't been 
sitting too long.


  I have been in contact with the mfgr, and of course i will take their advice 
over anyone else's (gotta keep the warranty valid), but you cannot deny the 
value of the hands-on experience and insight from this list.  They said to add 
distilled water after the initial charge, which is why i was only "considering" 
adding acid.  I have asked about adding acid rather than water.  Waiting for 
reply.


  Mick, you mentioned that the electrolyte levels may level once all batteries 
are at equal SOC.  Can you elaborate?  Do the plates become more or less 
'absorbent' or does the chemical reaction change the volume of the liquid.  I 
will watch this closely.


  cheers,
  benn

  DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. 
  b...@daystarsolar.ca
  780-906-7807 
  HAVE A SUNNY DAY ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries

[dan]

We got one shipment of thick plate 2V that apparently had been mistakenly shipped with the wrong electrolyte mix.. the Battery folks were pretty good about ponying up.. they sent me everything I needed to get things straightened out.. (Including $$ for the hassle).. Basically they had me set the Charge Controllers a Little Hot to burn off Water, then charge the snot out of them (like on EQ all week end). after the return amps dropped below like 3-5% of the normal charge rate, we'd let things rest for a while and then check SG (temp compensated).. My take away was the notion that the batteries were designed to be "fully charged" when the regulated charge rate dropped below 3-5% and the SG averaged 1.28.. The Tech guy also told me that they used a constant current of like 80A for days for their commissioning charge... The biggest problem I've been having is getting folks head around the scale of the difference between thick plate technology and their old UL16s.. They sure can take a whole lot more to charge when they're down... Good Luck.. dbDan BrownFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.comNABCEP #092907-44


 Original Message 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries
From: "Dana" 
Date: Thu, March 24, 2011 1:34 pm
To: "'RE-wrenches'" 

HUP Solar One batteries recommend topping off the electrolyte and doing an initial EQ cycle prior to use. We always check SG and voltage/cell on arrival and to date never had any discrepancy on either. Additionally we unbolt all connections, polish with a copper pipe wire brush all connecting surfaces [with a respirator on] re-bolt, check voltage & SG, then coat with Vaseline all connecting surfaces. So, total we check volt per cell and SG twice. Considering that this bank will be in place for 16-20 years it is a good place to start. Do it once and do it correctly. This serves as a good baseline.  I have mentioned this before but we only use a refractometer for checking specific gravity anymore the accuracy is dead on and not subject to sticking floats and curvature of the electrolyte in the hydrometer.  Refractometers are $85-$100 each from a good plumbing wholesale house. Dana OrzelGreat Solar Works, IncE - d...@solarwork.comV - 970.626.5253F - 970.626.4140C - 970.209.4076web - www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"Do not ever believe anything, but seriously trust through action. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Nick SoleilSent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 11:20 AMTo: RE-wrenchesSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries Hi Benn:    Perhaps those batteries have just been sitting a little while, and need a recharge.  Generally speaking, if you find that the batteries test reading are a little low, they are probably just a little discharged.  After recharging the batteries, test them again.  If those readings are low, then contact the manufacturer with the data.  I have had great luck with battery manufacturers warranting their defective batteries in warranty. Nick SoleilProject ManagerAdvanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLCPO Box 657Petaluma, CA 94953Cell: 707-321-2937Office: 707-789-9537Fax: 707-769-9037  From: benn kilburn To: Wrenches Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 9:43:20 AMSubject: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteriesI'm curious of others experiences with testing "new" batteries right from the mfgr, before putting them into service.  I'm not talking about load testing, i mean just basics...voltage, specific gravity and electrolyte level. I recently received some batteries (24 x 2V) and before putting them to work i tested all the voltages, SG's and levels.  Voltages were all with-in 0.016 V (2.1-2.084).  The SG's were within 0.037 (1.281-1.244).  Yes, the one with the lowest SG also had the lowest V.   What concerns me a bit more than the few cells with lower SG is the consistent low levels of electrolyte.  All cells were between 3/4" and 1-1/2" below full, which is 1/4" below the bottom of the vent well tube with one exception that was bang-on full.  Interestingly, the one full battery was the only one with a different date code than the rest.  Should the various levels of electrolyte mentioned be acceptable when a battery is brand new, straight from the mfgr?  How bout the SG's? I'm considering adding electrolyte from a local battery shop instead of distilled water to top up all the batteries.  Comments? Very thankful for the wealth of knowledge and experience on this list,bennDayStar Renewable Energy Inc. b...@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 HAVE A SUNNY DAY    ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries

[Rob Shappell]

Hey Dana, it's EQ then top off.

 

Rob

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 1:35 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries

 

HUP Solar One batteries recommend topping off the electrolyte and doing an
initial EQ cycle prior to use. We always check SG and voltage/cell on
arrival and to date never had any discrepancy on either.

 

Additionally we unbolt all connections, polish with a copper pipe wire brush
all connecting surfaces [with a respirator on] re-bolt, check voltage & SG,
then coat with Vaseline all connecting surfaces.

 

So, total we check volt per cell and SG twice. Considering that this bank
will be in place for 16-20 years it is a good place to start. Do it once and
do it correctly. This serves as a good baseline. 

 

I have mentioned this before but we only use a refractometer for checking
specific gravity anymore the accuracy is dead on and not subject to sticking
floats and curvature of the electrolyte in the hydrometer.  Refractometers
are $85-$100 each from a good plumbing wholesale house.

 

Dana Orzel

Great Solar Works, Inc

E - d...@solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

web - www.solarwork.com

 

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"

Do not ever believe anything, but seriously trust through action.

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Nick Soleil
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 11:20 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries

 

Hi Benn:
Perhaps those batteries have just been sitting a little while, and need
a recharge.  Generally speaking, if you find that the batteries test reading
are a little low, they are probably just a little discharged.  After
recharging the batteries, test them again.  If those readings are low, then
contact the manufacturer with the data.  I have had great luck with battery
manufacturers warranting their defective batteries in warranty.

 

Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037

 

 

  _  

From: benn kilburn 
To: Wrenches 
Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 9:43:20 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries

I'm curious of others experiences with testing "new" batteries right from
the mfgr, before putting them into service.  I'm not talking about load
testing, i mean just basics...voltage, specific gravity and electrolyte
level.

 

I recently received some batteries (24 x 2V) and before putting them to work
i tested all the voltages, SG's and levels.  Voltages were all with-in 0.016
V (2.1-2.084).  The SG's were within 0.037 (1.281-1.244).  Yes, the one with
the lowest SG also had the lowest V.  

 

What concerns me a bit more than the few cells with lower SG is the
consistent low levels of electrolyte.  All cells were between 3/4" and
1-1/2" below full, which is 1/4" below the bottom of the vent well tube
with one exception that was bang-on full.  Interestingly, the one full
battery was the only one with a different date code than the rest. 

 

Should the various levels of electrolyte mentioned be acceptable when a
battery is brand new, straight from the mfgr?  How bout the SG's?

 

I'm considering adding electrolyte from a local battery shop instead of
distilled water to top up all the batteries.  Comments?

 

Very thankful for the wealth of knowledge and experience on this list,

benn

DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. 

b...@daystarsolar.ca

780-906-7807 

HAVE A SUNNY DAY 

 

 

 

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[RE-wrenches] Looking for 1st generation OB inverter bypass setup

[Dana]

Hey all - 

 

I am looking for a 1st generation Outback Eng. Inverter
bypass setup. Please contact off list.

 

Thanks,

 

Dana Orzel

Great Solar Works, Inc

E - d...@solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

web - www.solarwork.com

 

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"

Do not ever believe anything, but seriously trust through
action.

 

___
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[RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries

[Dana]

HUP Solar One batteries recommend topping off the
electrolyte and doing an initial EQ cycle prior to use. We
always check SG and voltage/cell on arrival and to date
never had any discrepancy on either.

 

Additionally we unbolt all connections, polish with a copper
pipe wire brush all connecting surfaces [with a respirator
on] re-bolt, check voltage & SG, then coat with Vaseline all
connecting surfaces.

 

So, total we check volt per cell and SG twice. Considering
that this bank will be in place for 16-20 years it is a good
place to start. Do it once and do it correctly. This serves
as a good baseline. 

 

I have mentioned this before but we only use a refractometer
for checking specific gravity anymore the accuracy is dead
on and not subject to sticking floats and curvature of the
electrolyte in the hydrometer.  Refractometers are $85-$100
each from a good plumbing wholesale house.

 

Dana Orzel

Great Solar Works, Inc

E - d...@solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

web - www.solarwork.com

 

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"

Do not ever believe anything, but seriously trust through
action.

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf
Of Nick Soleil
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 11:20 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries

 

Hi Benn:
Perhaps those batteries have just been sitting a little
while, and need a recharge.  Generally speaking, if you find
that the batteries test reading are a little low, they are
probably just a little discharged.  After recharging the
batteries, test them again.  If those readings are low, then
contact the manufacturer with the data.  I have had great
luck with battery manufacturers warranting their defective
batteries in warranty.

 

Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037

 

 

  _  

From: benn kilburn 
To: Wrenches 
Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 9:43:20 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries

I'm curious of others experiences with testing "new"
batteries right from the mfgr, before putting them into
service.  I'm not talking about load testing, i mean just
basics...voltage, specific gravity and electrolyte level.

 

I recently received some batteries (24 x 2V) and before
putting them to work i tested all the voltages, SG's and
levels.  Voltages were all with-in 0.016 V (2.1-2.084).  The
SG's were within 0.037 (1.281-1.244).  Yes, the one with the
lowest SG also had the lowest V.  

 

What concerns me a bit more than the few cells with lower SG
is the consistent low levels of electrolyte.  All cells were
between 3/4" and 1-1/2" below full, which is 1/4" below the
bottom of the vent well tube with one exception that was
bang-on full.  Interestingly, the one full battery was the
only one with a different date code than the rest. 

 

Should the various levels of electrolyte mentioned be
acceptable when a battery is brand new, straight from the
mfgr?  How bout the SG's?

 

I'm considering adding electrolyte from a local battery shop
instead of distilled water to top up all the batteries.
Comments?

 

Very thankful for the wealth of knowledge and experience on
this list,

benn

DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. 

b...@daystarsolar.ca

780-906-7807 

HAVE A SUNNY DAY 

 

 

 

___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
I just spoke with Derek at IBE, having just taken delivery of two
sets of 2V industrial cells, one for a customer and the other for my
own home. On the customer's set, installed yesterday, I measured one
cell as .01V lower and .022 SG lower, before hooking up to any
charging source, and asked him whether to be concerned. His advice:

Before any testing and comparing of cells, EQ the bank to conteract
self-discharge. Ignore differences until this has been done.

Don't add acid, as doing so will upset the concentration. After
initial EQ charge, test SG again. Adjust SG to even out the cells by
transferring modest amounts of electrolyte from the cells with the
highest SG to those with lower SG. This will tend to even out acid
concentration. Acid concentration thus takes priority over
electrolyte level in each cell. Later addition of distilled water
will tend to dilute the cells with stronger SG from which
electrolyte was removed.


  
  
  Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
  Installer
  NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
  New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
  Positive Energy, Inc.
  3201 Calle Marie
  Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
  505 424-1112
  www.positiveenergysolar.com
  
  
  
   

On 3/24/2011 12:12 PM, benn kilburn wrote:

  
  Mick n' Nick,
  Thanks guys.  I shoulda mentioned that the date code says
they were mfgrd the 7th week of 2011 and the one exception, the
8th week.  So they haven't been sitting too long.
  
  
  I have been in contact with the mfgr, and of course i will
take their advice over anyone else's (gotta keep the warranty
valid), but you cannot deny the value of the hands-on experience
and insight from this list.  They said to add distilled water
after the initial charge, which is why i was only "considering"
adding acid.  I have asked about adding acid rather than water.
 Waiting for reply.
  
  
  Mick, you mentioned that the electrolyte levels may level
once all batteries are at equal SOC.  Can you elaborate?  Do the
plates become more or less 'absorbent' or does the chemical
reaction change the volume of the liquid.  I will watch this
closely.
  
  
  cheers,
  benn

DayStar Renewable Energy
Inc. 

  b...@daystarsolar.ca
  780-906-7807 
  HAVE A SUNNY DAY

  
  





From: m...@abrahamsolar.com
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:27:36 -0600
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries

Benn~ If the company that built those batteries is a major brand
name, I advise that you add neither water nor acid to the new
cells. Check with the mfr, but most of the serious mfrs are
using robotic fill equipment that is very precise. 

If some of the cells are older stock they may have self
discharged a bit and the electrolyte level rises & falls
like the tide based on state of charge. I'll bet if you can EQ
the batts to reach equal state of charge, you also will find the
electrolyte level to equalize. 

Jolliness, 

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675


On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:20 AM,
  Nick Soleil 
  wrote:
  

  Hi Benn:
    Perhaps those batteries have just been sitting a
little while, and need a recharge.  Generally speaking,
if you find that the batteries test reading are a little
low, they are probably just a little discharged.  After
recharging the batteries, test them again.  If those
readings are low, then contact the manufacturer with the
data.  I have had great luck with battery manufacturers
warranting their defective batteries in warranty.
 
Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037



  
  
  From:
  benn kilburn 
  To:
  Wrenches 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries

[Mick Abraham]

Hi, Benn~

When the batteries are chemically discharged, the plates absorb some of the
volume of the electrolyte...and that "lowers the tide". Upon recharge the
chemicals that had been absorbed into the plates are driven back into
solution...and that "raises the tide".

This is why one should never top up the levels on a battery which is
electrically discharged. The problem with that is if/when the battery
receives a good charge, the electrolyte level will rise, maybe enough to
overflow through the cell caps.

Jolliness,

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675


On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 12:12 PM, benn kilburn  wrote:

>  Mick n' Nick,
> Thanks guys.  I shoulda mentioned that the date code says they were mfgrd
> the 7th week of 2011 and the one exception, the 8th week.  So they haven't
> been sitting too long.
>
> I have been in contact with the mfgr, and of course i will take their
> advice over anyone else's (gotta keep the warranty valid), but you cannot
> deny the value of the hands-on experience and insight from this list.  They
> said to add distilled water after the initial charge, which is why i was
> only "considering" adding acid.  I have asked about adding acid rather than
> water.  Waiting for reply.
>
> Mick, you mentioned that the electrolyte levels may level once all
> batteries are at equal SOC.  Can you elaborate?  Do the plates become more
> or less 'absorbent' or does the chemical reaction change the volume of the
> liquid.  I will watch this closely.
>
> cheers,
> benn
>
> DayStar Renewable Energy Inc.
> b...@daystarsolar.ca
> 780-906-7807
> HAVE A SUNNY DAY
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> From: m...@abrahamsolar.com
> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:27:36 -0600
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries
>
>
> Benn~ If the company that built those batteries is a major brand name, I
> advise that you add neither water nor acid to the new cells. Check with the
> mfr, but most of the serious mfrs are using robotic fill equipment that is
> very precise.
>
> If some of the cells are older stock they may have self discharged a bit
> and the electrolyte level rises & falls like the tide based on state of
> charge. I'll bet if you can EQ the batts to reach equal state of charge, you
> also will find the electrolyte level to equalize.
>
> Jolliness,
>
> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
> www.abrahamsolar.com
>
> Voice: 970-731-4675
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Nick Soleil 
> wrote:
>
> Hi Benn:
> Perhaps those batteries have just been sitting a little while, and need
> a recharge.  Generally speaking, if you find that the batteries test reading
> are a little low, they are probably just a little discharged.  After
> recharging the batteries, test them again.  If those readings are low, then
> contact the manufacturer with the data.  I have had great luck with battery
> manufacturers warranting their defective batteries in warranty.
>
> Nick Soleil
> Project Manager
> Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
> PO Box 657
> Petaluma, CA 94953
> Cell: 707-321-2937
> Office: 707-789-9537
> Fax: 707-769-9037
>
>
> --
> *From:* benn kilburn 
> *To:* Wrenches 
> *Sent:* Thu, March 24, 2011 9:43:20 AM
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries
>
> I'm curious of others experiences with testing "new" batteries right from
> the mfgr, before putting them into service.  I'm not talking about load
> testing, i mean just basics...voltage, specific gravity and electrolyte
> level.
>
> I recently received some batteries (24 x 2V) and before putting them to
> work i tested all the voltages, SG's and levels.  Voltages were all with-in
> 0.016 V (2.1-2.084).  The SG's were within 0.037 (1.281-1.244).  Yes, the
> one with the lowest SG also had the lowest V.
>
> What concerns me a bit more than the few cells with lower SG is the
> consistent low levels of electrolyte.  All cells were between 3/4" and
> 1-1/2" below full, which is 1/4" below the bottom of the vent well tube
> with one exception that was bang-on full.  Interestingly, the one full
> battery was the only one with a different date code than the rest.
>
> Should the various levels of electrolyte mentioned be acceptable when a
> battery is brand new, straight from the mfgr?  How bout the SG's?
>
> I'm considering adding electrolyte from a local battery shop instead of
> distilled water to top up all the batteries.  Comments?
>
> Very thankful for the wealth of knowledge and experience on this list,
> benn
>
> DayStar Renewable Energy Inc.
> b...@daystarsolar.ca
> 780-906-7807
> HAVE A SUNNY DAY
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
>

Re: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries

[benn kilburn]

Mick n' Nick,Thanks guys.  I shoulda mentioned that the date code says they 
were mfgrd the 7th week of 2011 and the one exception, the 8th week.  So they 
haven't been sitting too long.
I have been in contact with the mfgr, and of course i will take their advice 
over anyone else's (gotta keep the warranty valid), but you cannot deny the 
value of the hands-on experience and insight from this list.  They said to add 
distilled water after the initial charge, which is why i was only "considering" 
adding acid.  I have asked about adding acid rather than water.  Waiting for 
reply.
Mick, you mentioned that the electrolyte levels may level once all batteries 
are at equal SOC.  Can you elaborate?  Do the plates become more or less 
'absorbent' or does the chemical reaction change the volume of the liquid.  I 
will watch this closely.
cheers,benn

DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. benn@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 HAVE A SUNNY DAY







From: m...@abrahamsolar.com
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:27:36 -0600
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries

Benn~ If the company that built those batteries is a major brand name, I advise 
that you add neither water nor acid to the new cells. Check with the mfr, but 
most of the serious mfrs are using robotic fill equipment that is very precise. 



If some of the cells are older stock they may have self discharged a bit and 
the electrolyte level rises & falls like the tide based on state of charge. 
I'll bet if you can EQ the batts to reach equal state of charge, you also will 
find the electrolyte level to equalize. 



Jolliness, 
Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675



On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Nick Soleil  wrote:


Hi Benn:
Perhaps those batteries have just been sitting a little while, and need a 
recharge.  Generally speaking, if you find that the batteries test reading are 
a little low, they are probably just a little discharged.  After recharging the 
batteries, test them again.  If those readings are low, then contact the 
manufacturer with the data.  I have had great luck with battery manufacturers 
warranting their defective batteries in warranty.


 Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell:   707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax:707-769-9037



From: benn kilburn 


To: Wrenches 
Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 9:43:20 AM


Subject: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries





I'm curious of others experiences with testing "new" batteries right from the 
mfgr, before putting them into service.  I'm not talking about load testing, i 
mean just basics...voltage, specific gravity and electrolyte level.


I recently received some batteries (24 x 2V) and before putting them to work i 
tested all the voltages, SG's and levels.  Voltages were all with-in 0.016 V 
(2.1-2.084).  The SG's were within 0.037 (1.281-1.244).  Yes, the one with the 
lowest SG also had the lowest V.  


What concerns me a bit more than the few cells with lower SG is the consistent 
low levels of electrolyte.  All cells were between 3/4" and 1-1/2" below full, 
which is 1/4" below the bottom of the vent well tube with one exception 
that was bang-on full.  Interestingly, the one full battery was the only one 
with a different date code than the rest. 


Should the
 various levels of electrolyte mentioned be acceptable when a battery is brand 
new, straight from the mfgr?  How bout the SG's?
I'm considering adding electrolyte from a local battery shop instead of 
distilled water to top up all the batteries.  Comments?


Very thankful for the wealth of knowledge and experience on this list,benn

DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. 

benn@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 

HAVE A SUNNY DAY





  









  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries

[Mick Abraham]

Benn~ If the company that built those batteries is a major brand name, I
advise that you add neither water nor acid to the new cells. Check with the
mfr, but most of the serious mfrs are using robotic fill equipment that is
very precise.

If some of the cells are older stock they may have self discharged a bit and
the electrolyte level rises & falls like the tide based on state of charge.
I'll bet if you can EQ the batts to reach equal state of charge, you also
will find the electrolyte level to equalize.

Jolliness,

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675


On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Nick Soleil wrote:

> Hi Benn:
> Perhaps those batteries have just been sitting a little while, and need
> a recharge.  Generally speaking, if you find that the batteries test reading
> are a little low, they are probably just a little discharged.  After
> recharging the batteries, test them again.  If those readings are low, then
> contact the manufacturer with the data.  I have had great luck with battery
> manufacturers warranting their defective batteries in warranty.
>
> Nick Soleil
> Project Manager
> Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
> PO Box 657
> Petaluma, CA 94953
> Cell: 707-321-2937
> Office: 707-789-9537
> Fax: 707-769-9037
>
>
> --
> *From:* benn kilburn 
> *To:* Wrenches 
> *Sent:* Thu, March 24, 2011 9:43:20 AM
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries
>
> I'm curious of others experiences with testing "new" batteries right from
> the mfgr, before putting them into service.  I'm not talking about load
> testing, i mean just basics...voltage, specific gravity and electrolyte
> level.
>
> I recently received some batteries (24 x 2V) and before putting them to
> work i tested all the voltages, SG's and levels.  Voltages were all with-in
> 0.016 V (2.1-2.084).  The SG's were within 0.037 (1.281-1.244).  Yes, the
> one with the lowest SG also had the lowest V.
>
> What concerns me a bit more than the few cells with lower SG is the
> consistent low levels of electrolyte.  All cells were between 3/4" and
> 1-1/2" below full, which is 1/4" below the bottom of the vent well tube
> with one exception that was bang-on full.  Interestingly, the one full
> battery was the only one with a different date code than the rest.
>
> Should the various levels of electrolyte mentioned be acceptable when a
> battery is brand new, straight from the mfgr?  How bout the SG's?
>
> I'm considering adding electrolyte from a local battery shop instead of
> distilled water to top up all the batteries.  Comments?
>
> Very thankful for the wealth of knowledge and experience on this list,
> benn
>
> DayStar Renewable Energy Inc.
> b...@daystarsolar.ca
> 780-906-7807
> HAVE A SUNNY DAY
>
>
>
>
>
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> www.members.re-wrenches.org
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>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries

[Nick Soleil]

Hi Benn:
Perhaps those batteries have just been sitting a little while, and need a 
recharge.  Generally speaking, if you find that the batteries test reading are 
a 
little low, they are probably just a little discharged.  After recharging the 
batteries, test them again.  If those readings are low, then contact the 
manufacturer with the data.  I have had great luck with battery manufacturers 
warranting their defective batteries in warranty.

 Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell:   707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax:707-769-9037





From: benn kilburn 
To: Wrenches 
Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 9:43:20 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries

  I'm curious of others experiences with testing "new" batteries right from the 
mfgr, before putting them into service.  I'm not talking about load testing, i 
mean just basics...voltage, specific gravity and electrolyte level.

I recently received some batteries (24 x 2V) and before putting them to work i 
tested all the voltages, SG's and levels.  Voltages were all with-in 0.016 V 
(2.1-2.084).  The SG's were within 0.037 (1.281-1.244).  Yes, the one with the 
lowest SG also had the lowest V.  

What concerns me a bit more than the few cells with lower SG is the consistent 
low levels of electrolyte.  All cells were between 3/4" and 1-1/2" below full, 
which is 1/4" below the bottom of the vent well tube with one exception 
that 
was bang-on full.  Interestingly, the one full battery was the only one with a 
different date code than the rest. 

Should the various levels of electrolyte mentioned be acceptable when a battery 
is brand new, straight from the mfgr?  How bout the SG's?

I'm considering adding electrolyte from a local battery shop instead of 
distilled water to top up all the batteries.  Comments?

Very thankful for the wealth of knowledge and experience on this list,
benn

DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. 
b...@daystarsolar.ca
780-906-7807 
HAVE A SUNNY DAY 


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[RE-wrenches] Testing new batteries

[benn kilburn]

I'm curious of others experiences with testing "new" batteries right from the 
mfgr, before putting them into service.  I'm not talking about load testing, i 
mean just basics...voltage, specific gravity and electrolyte level.
I recently received some batteries (24 x 2V) and before putting them to work i 
tested all the voltages, SG's and levels.  Voltages were all with-in 0.016 V 
(2.1-2.084).  The SG's were within 0.037 (1.281-1.244).  Yes, the one with the 
lowest SG also had the lowest V.  
What concerns me a bit more than the few cells with lower SG is the consistent 
low levels of electrolyte.  All cells were between 3/4" and 1-1/2" below full, 
which is 1/4" below the bottom of the vent well tube with one exception 
that was bang-on full.  Interestingly, the one full battery was the only one 
with a different date code than the rest. 
Should the various levels of electrolyte mentioned be acceptable when a battery 
is brand new, straight from the mfgr?  How bout the SG's?
I'm considering adding electrolyte from a local battery shop instead of 
distilled water to top up all the batteries.  Comments?
Very thankful for the wealth of knowledge and experience on this list,benn

DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. benn@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 HAVE A SUNNY DAY





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Re: [RE-wrenches] wrenches] Value of PV system to a home

[Jason Szumlanski]

That opens up a whole other discussion: why do people think solar is so 
troublesome to get installed. Is it the perceived cost? Selecting a contractor? 
Learning the basics? If we’re listening to the anecdotal evidence, the value 
seems to be from having someone else deal with the _hassle_ of getting solar 
installed. That’s not good!

 

It’s hard to strike a balance between telling people that installing solar is 
easy, but then telling them that you can’t trust any Johnny-come-lately to 
install it.

 

Anyway, it’s good to hear that homes are selling faster with solar. I see it 
pop up in MLS listing all the time around here, so it must be important to 
someone. Now, back to how to put a value on it and get banks and realtors to 
agree!

 

Jason Szumlanski

Fafco Solar 

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of john
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 10:44 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] wrenches] Value of PV system to a home

 

Same story here in Vermont.  One of my customers (PV and SHW) decided to sell 
after his wife died of cancer.  Needed a new start, new place.  He listed his 
house at the going price + cost of systems plus $25,000, planning on it taking 
awhile to sell.  It sold in 3 weeks!  A young couple bought it because they 
wanted solar and liked the idea of not having to go to all the trouble to get 
it installed.  One mortgage payment... all done. 

 

John Blittersdorf 

Central Vermont Solar & Wind LLC

104 River Street

Rutland, VT 05701

 

-Original Message-
From: Solar Energy Solutions 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:24 pm
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Value of PV system to a home

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Value of PV system to a home

[Jason Szumlanski]

You hit a nail on the head. We hear very often older customers saying
that they want to a) make sure their presumed future widow is taken care
of, or b) want to leave a self-sustaining home to their kids. I think
these are very valid and intriguing reasons to go solar.

 

Jason Szumlanski

Fafco Solar 

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel
Davidson
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 1:22 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Value of PV system to a home

 

Consider not moving or selling your PV powered home. Making your PV
powered home your retirement home is a better investment than a savings
CD and definitely a hedge against increased grid electricity prices for
retired people on a fixed income. Plant some roots and lead your
neighborhood by example.

 

Joel Davidson

 

- Original Message - 

From: Kirpal Khalsa   

To: RE-wrenches   

Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 9:33 PM

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Value of PV system to a home

 

What I have been putting forth to our customers and potential
customers, is that a PV system when looked at like an appliance is
simply equal to the value of the energy it produces over a given
periodfor straight grid tied systems I have used what I think is a
conservative number of 20 years and then I multiply that by today's
energy costs...so if a system is installed in Oregon and electricity
is $.09/kWh and the system is expected to produce 4500kWh per year then
that system would add 4500kWh x $.09 x 20 years = $8100 in value to
their property.in Oregon..
Certainly you could add average utility price increases over
time to the value of the energy produced, as well as reductions in
system output overtime as equipment degrades.additionally if a party
is buying a house equipped with a PV system they may not want to
calculate a full 20 years into that formula if the system was installed
years earlier...I prefer to use conservative numbers in my formula
inputs, however the argument could be made stating that the 20 year time
span is too short and if the lifetime is potentially double that the
value of the system also doubles. 
In my mind an off grid system can be more directly tied to the
cost of the equipment as the grid is not an alternative to the power
that is supplied.
Finally, we have never had a customer disagree with this basic
approach, however it still falls flat on its face if the customer is not
planning on moving or selling their property!

-- 
Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Value of PV system to a home

[Joel Davidson]

Consider not moving or selling your PV powered home. Making your PV powered 
home your retirement home is a better investment than a savings CD and 
definitely a hedge against increased grid electricity prices for retired people 
on a fixed income. Plant some roots and lead your neighborhood by example.

Joel Davidson

  - Original Message - 
  From: Kirpal Khalsa 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 9:33 PM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Value of PV system to a home


  What I have been putting forth to our customers and potential customers, is 
that a PV system when looked at like an appliance is simply equal to the value 
of the energy it produces over a given periodfor straight grid tied systems 
I have used what I think is a conservative number of 20 years and then I 
multiply that by today's energy costs...so if a system is installed in 
Oregon and electricity is $.09/kWh and the system is expected to produce 
4500kWh per year then that system would add 4500kWh x $.09 x 20 years = $8100 
in value to their property.in Oregon..
  Certainly you could add average utility price increases over time to the 
value of the energy produced, as well as reductions in system output overtime 
as equipment degrades.additionally if a party is buying a house equipped 
with a PV system they may not want to calculate a full 20 years into that 
formula if the system was installed years earlier...I prefer to use 
conservative numbers in my formula inputs, however the argument could be made 
stating that the 20 year time span is too short and if the lifetime is 
potentially double that the value of the system also doubles. 
  In my mind an off grid system can be more directly tied to the cost of the 
equipment as the grid is not an alternative to the power that is supplied.
  Finally, we have never had a customer disagree with this basic approach, 
however it still falls flat on its face if the customer is not planning on 
moving or selling their property!

  -- 
  Sunny Regards,
  Kirpal Khalsa
  NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
  Renewable Energy Systems
  www.oregonsolarworks.com
  541-218-0201 m
  541-592-3958 o


  On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 7:44 PM, Exeltech  wrote:

  I spoke last October with the Appraisal Journal, and specifically 
with Rick Nevin,
  author of the referenced articles.

  Mr. Nevin stated a recent review conducted by the Appraisal Journal 
confirmed
  the information in the reports is as applicable today as it was when 
the study
  was conducted, and even more so given the increased cost of energy 
that's
  occurred since the study was published.

  Dan

  --- On Tue, 3/22/11, Jamie Johnson  wrote:


From: Jamie Johnson 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Value of PV system to a home
To: "Keith Cronin" , "RE-wrenches" 
, "Joel Davidson" 

Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2011, 5:01 PM


Keith & Joel,

The old metric was $20 in value for each $1 saved in energy, 
however the Appraisal Institute has not supported that valuation metric for 
some time now and neither has Fannie, Freddie or FHA.

Using the gross sales price that the customer paid for PV as a 
valuation number was also shot down.

And unfortunately most regional MLS databases don't provide a 
category for solar electric, solar hot water or solar pool heaters, so that 
makes it difficult for an appraiser to use the sales comparison approach.

A year ago I began developing a valuation model for PV for the 
Appraisal Institutes Educational Committee and they are now incorporating parts 
of it into their training programs on "valuation of sustainable buildings" for 
appraisers.  Earlier this year DOE awarded a grant to Sandia Natl Lab to 
essentially do the same thing for the Solar America Cities program (soon to be 
the Solar America Communities program) and they have since picked up my work on 
the valuation model.

A proof of concept spreadsheet (which takes all of the fun out of 
it) and pdf explanation of the valuation model should be released this summer.  
I will provide the download link to the list when it is available.  

It's important to note that any valuation model for PV needs to be 
accepted by Fannie, Freddie and FHA before it is relied on and quoted by the PV 
industry.  There are currently ongoing discussions between FF&F, AI and DOE on 
PV valuations and hopefully they will resolve the PV valuation issues for loan 
transactions soon. 

Jamie Johnson
NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional PVTS012911-44
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer 031310-118

General Manager
SOLAR POWER ELECTRIC






   Original Message 
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] Value of PV system to a home
  From: K

Re: [RE-wrenches] racks

[Bob-O Schultze]

DP&W has a similar thing, but it's a clamp which grips the module frame from 
underneath.
Bob-O

On Mar 24, 2011, at 7:30 AM, jay peltz wrote:

I wanted to add to the rack discussion that Unirac has a clip ( bottom mount 
clips) that allow you to use their rails but mount via the module mounting 
holes.
Very slick design, I've used it a bunch.
Very secure and of course you work from the bottom.

Jay 

peltz power


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[RE-wrenches] racks

[jay peltz]

I wanted to add to the rack discussion that Unirac has a clip ( bottom mount 
clips) that allow you to use their rails but mount via the module mounting 
holes.
Very slick design, I've used it a bunch.
Very secure and of course you work from the bottom.

Jay 

peltz power


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[RE-wrenches] Chinese roof mounting system...

[North Texas Renewable Energy Inc]

Wrenches
have any wrenches used the Grace Solar mounting rail/clamp assembly? The
clamps are drop-in, like T-head bolts but clamp against both edges of the
rail. The rail allows the same clamps to attach on either the top edge or
side. Their www site didn't list any US distributors.

http://www.gracesolar.com/UploadFile/pdf/15201174911PM-PitchedRoofRackingSys
tem.pdf

Jim Duncan
North Texas Renewable Energy
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
Installer No.031310-57
TECL 27398
nt...@1scom.net
817.917.0527
www.ntrei.com
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