[RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival

[benn kilburn]

Wrenches,I have been asked about sizing PV systems for a couple different music 
festivals that have been run solely off of generators in the past.  The problem 
i'm having is determining the energy consumption of music/stage (amps, 
speakers, lights, etc...?) loads as well as concession.  The organizers have 
never considered the kwh of electricity used and it has never been metered.  I 
believe the attendance of one festival is expected to be in the range of 5000 
and the other closer to 15000 over the course of a weekend.
Do any of you have any experiences in this area?  How were the loads determined?
No doubt that generator back-up will still be needed, to what extent, will be 
determined.  So what we're looking at would be a temporary off-grid PV system 
with generator back-up...
Any suggestions on how to proceed with this one?
benn

DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. benn@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 HAVE A SUNNY DAY





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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival

[boB Gudgel]

On 4/27/2011 3:51 PM, benn kilburn wrote:

Wrenches,
I have been asked about sizing PV systems for a couple different music 
festivals that have been run solely off of generators in the past. 
 The problem i'm having is determining the energy consumption of 
music/stage (amps, speakers, lights, etc...?) loads as well as 
concession.  The organizers have never considered the kwh of 
electricity used and it has never been metered.  I believe the 
attendance of one festival is expected to be in the range of 5000 and 
the other closer to 15000 over the course of a weekend.


Do any of you have any experiences in this area?  How were the loads 
determined?


No doubt that generator back-up will still be needed, to what extent, 
will be determined.  So what we're looking at would be a temporary 
off-grid PV system with generator back-up...


Any suggestions on how to proceed with this one?

benn



You might want to check the guys out from this article from a year or 
two ago.

I think it's just the kind of thing you're looking for.


http://www.prosoundweb.com/photos/category/C17/


Four (4) pacific northwest companies  made some of the products for this 
tour including the mixer board.


boB







DayStar Renewable Energy Inc.
b...@daystarsolar.ca
780-906-7807
HAVE A SUNNY DAY




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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival

[Starlight Solar, Larry Crutcher]

Benn,

I've had requests like this in the past and have found in EVERY case the 
customer has no idea that it will take a $$$multi-tens-of-thousands to replace 
the generator power. If you have the estimating experience, throw out a very 
large ballpark number to see if their eyes get wide. You may find that they 
say, "Really? ...That much?"And then you're done.

Best Regards,

Larry Crutcher
General Manager
Starlight Solar Power Systems
11881 S Fortuna Road, #210
Yuma, AZ 85367

Phone
(928) 342-9103 

powered by STARLIGHTT

  - Original Message - 
  From: benn kilburn 
  To: Wrenches 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 3:51 PM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival


  Wrenches,
  I have been asked about sizing PV systems for a couple different music 
festivals that have been run solely off of generators in the past.  The problem 
i'm having is determining the energy consumption of music/stage (amps, 
speakers, lights, etc...?) loads as well as concession.  The organizers have 
never considered the kwh of electricity used and it has never been metered.  I 
believe the attendance of one festival is expected to be in the range of 5000 
and the other closer to 15000 over the course of a weekend.


  Do any of you have any experiences in this area?  How were the loads 
determined?


  No doubt that generator back-up will still be needed, to what extent, will be 
determined.  So what we're looking at would be a temporary off-grid PV system 
with generator back-up...


  Any suggestions on how to proceed with this one?


  benn

  DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. 
  b...@daystarsolar.ca
  780-906-7807 
  HAVE A SUNNY DAY 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival

[boB Gudgel]

On 4/27/2011 4:50 PM, Starlight Solar, Larry Crutcher wrote:

Benn,
I've had requests like this in the past and have found in EVERY case 
the customer has no idea that it will take a 
$$$multi-tens-of-thousands to replace the generator power. If you have 
the estimating experience, throw out a very large ballpark number to 
see if their eyes get wide. You may find that they say, "Really? 
...That much?"And then you're done.


Best Regards,

Larry Crutcher



This is probably true, but just in case, doesn't hurt to ask I suppose.

Also,  I believe it was Aur Beck ataessolar.com/  had a lot to do 
with running

alternative energy for a super bowl half time show concert (or some
big football thang as I remember) a couple of years ago.

He might also have some info, if nothing more than to say to run away
from this.

That other link I sent didn't have anything like 5000 people I have a 
feeling.


boB








General Manager
Starlight Solar Power Systems 
11881 S Fortuna Road, #210
Yuma, AZ 85367

Phone
(928) 342-9103

/powered by *STARLIGHT*/^(TM)

- Original Message -
*From:* benn kilburn 
*To:* Wrenches 
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 27, 2011 3:51 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival

Wrenches,
I have been asked about sizing PV systems for a couple different
music festivals that have been run solely off of generators in the
past.  The problem i'm having is determining the energy
consumption of music/stage (amps, speakers, lights, etc...?) loads
as well as concession.  The organizers have never considered the
kwh of electricity used and it has never been metered.  I believe
the attendance of one festival is expected to be in the range of
5000 and the other closer to 15000 over the course of a weekend.

Do any of you have any experiences in this area?  How were the
loads determined?

No doubt that generator back-up will still be needed, to what
extent, will be determined.  So what we're looking at would be a
temporary off-grid PV system with generator back-up...

Any suggestions on how to proceed with this one?

benn

DayStar Renewable Energy Inc.
b...@daystarsolar.ca
780-906-7807
HAVE A SUNNY DAY


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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival

[wirewiz]

Ask SolarFest in Vermont how they did it. 

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: boB Gudgel 
Sender: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgDate: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 
16:56:53 
To: RE-wrenches
Reply-To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival

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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival

[Rich Nicol]

I think its CV Solar that does the Solarfest system. http://www.cvsolar.com/
Thanks
Rich

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
wire...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 8:06 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival

Ask SolarFest in Vermont how they did it. 

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: boB Gudgel 
Sender: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgDate: Wed, 27 Apr 2011
16:56:53 
To: RE-wrenches
Reply-To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival

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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival

[R Ray Walters]

Solarfest in Taos had a solar powered stage for years, so it definitely can be 
done. I've been into sound stuff lately, and I can say the loads are extremely 
variable.
I have a 600 watt rated amp, (class D design) that I peaked at 270 watts input 
and averaged about 150 watts while I was testing with a very low frequency 
signal.
I used a Kill-a-watt meter for the test, and the amp's clip light came on. 
I also tested a class A amp (much less efficient) but I found the same thing: I 
never could get the input watts even to half the rated output of the amp.
No load draw was about 20 watts.

I'd start at having enough inverter surge power to meet all the amps cont. 
rated output. You'll also want enough battery to hit the surges on the bass 
notes. (pretend its a well pump)
Car audio guys know that more battery = more boom.
You should be able to get some idea of the loads from the generator size that 
worked before, also.
Find out how many bands will play each day, and approx how long their sets will 
be to get KwH/ day.

Sinewave is mandatory, although the Taos Solarfest used a pair of Trace SW4024s 
as I recall.
The rest of the system was 8 L16s, an 8000 watt generator, and about 1000 watt 
array (again based on my foggy memory)
This wasn't for the main stage, but a secondary stage that worked well for 
maybe 5000 people.(their bass was a bit wimpy though. Might want to go with 
more battery)
I also recall that this was a trailer mounted rental unit from Sacred Power in 
Albuquerque, so they may consider some kind of leasing/ rent to own arrangement.

R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Apr 27, 2011, at 5:15 PM, boB Gudgel wrote:

> On 4/27/2011 3:51 PM, benn kilburn wrote:
>> 
>> Wrenches,
>> I have been asked about sizing PV systems for a couple different music 
>> festivals that have been run solely off of generators in the past.  The 
>> problem i'm having is determining the energy consumption of music/stage 
>> (amps, speakers, lights, etc...?) loads as well as concession.  The 
>> organizers have never considered the kwh of electricity used and it has 
>> never been metered.  I believe the attendance of one festival is expected to 
>> be in the range of 5000 and the other closer to 15000 over the course of a 
>> weekend.
>> 
>> Do any of you have any experiences in this area?  How were the loads 
>> determined?
>> 
>> No doubt that generator back-up will still be needed, to what extent, will 
>> be determined.  So what we're looking at would be a temporary off-grid PV 
>> system with generator back-up...
>> 
>> Any suggestions on how to proceed with this one?
>> 
>> benn
> 
> 
> You might want to check the guys out from this article from a year or two ago.
> I think it's just the kind of thing you're looking for.
> 
> 
> http://www.prosoundweb.com/photos/category/C17/
> 
> 
> Four (4) pacific northwest companies  made some of the products for this tour 
> including the mixer board.
> 
> boB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. 
>> b...@daystarsolar.ca
>> 780-906-7807 
>> HAVE A SUNNY DAY
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> Options & settings:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival

[dan]

It's the lights that will get you. JB should chime in here soon, but as I recall SF in Vt maxed at around 15-20kw for sound and in the neighborhood of 50k for lights.Dan BrownFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.comNABCEP #092907-44


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival
From: R Ray Walters 
Date: Wed, April 27, 2011 9:04 pm
To: RE-wrenches 

Solarfest in Taos had a solar powered stage for years, so it definitely can be done. I've been into sound stuff lately, and I can say the loads are extremely variable.I have a 600 watt rated amp, (class D design) that I peaked at 270 watts input and averaged about 150 watts while I was testing with a very low frequency signal.I used a Kill-a-watt meter for the test, and the amp's clip light came on. I also tested a class A amp (much less efficient) but I found the same thing: I never could get the input watts even to half the rated output of the amp.No load draw was about 20 watts.I'd start at having enough inverter surge power to meet all the amps cont. rated output. You'll also want enough battery to hit the surges on the bass notes. (pretend its a well pump)Car audio guys know that more battery = more boom.You should be able to get some idea of the loads from the generator size that worked before, also.Find out how many bands will play each day, and approx how long their sets will be to get KwH/ day.Sinewave is mandatory, although the Taos Solarfest used a pair of Trace SW4024s as I recall.The rest of the system was 8 L16s, an 8000 watt generator, and about 1000 watt array (again based on my foggy memory)This wasn't for the main stage, but a secondary stage that worked well for maybe 5000 people.(their bass was a bit wimpy though. Might want to go with more battery)I also recall that this was a trailer mounted rental unit from Sacred Power in Albuquerque, so they may consider some kind of leasing/ rent to own arrangement. R. Waltersr...@solarray.comSolar Engineer  On Apr 27, 2011, at 5:15 PM, boB Gudgel wrote:  On 4/27/2011 3:51 PM, benn kilburn wrote:   Wrenches, I have been asked about sizing PV systems for a couple different music festivals that have been run solely off of generators in the past.  The problem i'm having is determining the energy consumption of music/stage (amps, speakers, lights, etc...?) loads as well as concession.  The organizers have never considered the kwh of electricity used and it has never been metered.  I believe the attendance of one festival is expected to be in the range of 5000 and the other closer to 15000 over the course of a weekend.   Do any of you have any experiences in this area?  How were the loads determined?   No doubt that generator back-up will still be needed, to what extent, will be determined.  So what we're looking at would be a temporary off-grid PV system with generator back-up...   Any suggestions on how to proceed with this one?   benn You might want to check the guys out from this article from a year or two ago. I think it's just the kind of thing you're looking for.   http://www.prosoundweb.com/photos/category/C17/   Four (4) pacific northwest companies  made some of the products for this tour including the mixer board.  boBDayStar Renewable Energy Inc.   b...@daystarsolar.ca 780-906-7807  HAVE A SUNNY DAY
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L

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Benn,

I have a little experience from about a decade ago. Don't know how useful it 
will be though.

AEE and DC Power used to team up to supply power for a three-day outdoor music 
festival in Mendocino Co, CA in the mid 90's and early 2000's. Music from 5-8PM 
on Friday, and from 11AM-10PM on Sat and Sun.  I don't know how big the crowd 
was  - 5-6000 I would guess.

We would bring a rack-mounted 12kW Exeltech MX inverter set-up (24V and not 
even N+1 redundant) and 5-6kW of PV (a lot of 120W modules). DC Power would 
bring two big tractor-trailer loads of industrial wet-cell batteries (I have no 
idea what the total amp-hours were, but a hell of a lot).

The sound crew would show up each year with a bigger set-up, even though we 
warned them that the power supply was limited. Stage lighting was left on 
generators running biodiesel.

The last year that we did it, the sound guys showed up with a sound system 
rated at 14kW. It drew 6kW just being on with no sound. Not even a hint of buzz 
or hum from the inverter power. The MX is good stuff.

I nervously watched that Exeltech all weekend as the bar graphs on each power 
module stayed in the red over-load range for most of each band's set. When the 
drummers or bass players would go nuts it was all red lights. We were measuring 
up to 600A of current flowing through the four pairs of 4/0 cables coming from 
the batteries, and a good bit of voltage drop as the cables were at least 30' 
long. The inverter was seeing less than 24VDC most of the time. The cooling 
fans on the MX modules would run for 20-30 seconds, and shut off for a minute 
or two and then come on again. This is with temps in the upper 90's, and the 
inverter sitting on the ground under the stage. Even with all this torture, the 
Exeltech never even hiccupped, which was quite impressive. The sound engineer 
was hollering at us that the inverter was clipping off the high notes, but 
neither I, nor the audience ever noticed. All I could do was shrug and tell him 
that he was warned about limited power availability. The music was great.

By the end of the weekend, those batteries were pretty drained, so it's hard to 
actually say that the show was "solar powered". Sitting around with a few beers 
afterwards, we all agreed that the ranch owners could install a 2kW grid-tie 
system on a tracker at the concert site and that system would produce all the 
energy needed for the show in a year's time, likely including the energy use 
for the lighting and by the vendors. This would have required that utility 
power be brought to the site, which would have been a rather expensive deal, 
but would have made more sense, and would have made it a more truly 
solar-powered event.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of benn kilburn
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 3:51 PM
To: Wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival

Wrenches,
I have been asked about sizing PV systems for a couple different music 
festivals that have been run solely off of generators in the past.  The problem 
i'm having is determining the energy consumption of music/stage (amps, 
speakers, lights, etc...?) loads as well as concession.  The organizers have 
never considered the kwh of electricity used and it has never been metered.  I 
believe the attendance of one festival is expected to be in the range of 5000 
and the other closer to 15000 over the course of a weekend.

Do any of you have any experiences in this area?  How were the loads determined?

No doubt that generator back-up will still be needed, to what extent, will be 
determined.  So what we're looking at would be a temporary off-grid PV system 
with generator back-up...

Any suggestions on how to proceed with this one?

benn

DayStar Renewable Energy Inc.
b...@daystarsolar.ca
780-906-7807
HAVE A SUNNY DAY


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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival

[jay peltz]

HI Brian,

I would add that remember we had to take out the400 amp class T fuses because 
they kept blowing!

jay

peltz power
On Apr 27, 2011, at 6:13 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:

> Benn,
>  
> I have a little experience from about a decade ago. Don’t know how useful it 
> will be though.
>  
> AEE and DC Power used to team up to supply power for a three-day outdoor 
> music festival in Mendocino Co, CA in the mid 90’s and early 2000’s. Music 
> from 5-8PM on Friday, and from 11AM-10PM on Sat and Sun.  I don’t know how 
> big the crowd was  - 5-6000 I would guess.
>  
> We would bring a rack-mounted 12kW Exeltech MX inverter set-up (24V and not 
> even N+1 redundant) and 5-6kW of PV (a lot of 120W modules). DC Power would 
> bring two big tractor-trailer loads of industrial wet-cell batteries (I have 
> no idea what the total amp-hours were, but a hell of a lot).
>  
> The sound crew would show up each year with a bigger set-up, even though we 
> warned them that the power supply was limited. Stage lighting was left on 
> generators running biodiesel.
>  
> The last year that we did it, the sound guys showed up with a sound system 
> rated at 14kW. It drew 6kW just being on with no sound. Not even a hint of 
> buzz or hum from the inverter power. The MX is good stuff.
>  
> I nervously watched that Exeltech all weekend as the bar graphs on each power 
> module stayed in the red over-load range for most of each band’s set. When 
> the drummers or bass players would go nuts it was all red lights. We were 
> measuring up to 600A of current flowing through the four pairs of 4/0 cables 
> coming from the batteries, and a good bit of voltage drop as the cables were 
> at least 30’ long. The inverter was seeing less than 24VDC most of the time. 
> The cooling fans on the MX modules would run for 20-30 seconds, and shut off 
> for a minute or two and then come on again. This is with temps in the upper 
> 90’s, and the inverter sitting on the ground under the stage. Even with all 
> this torture, the Exeltech never even hiccupped, which was quite impressive. 
> The sound engineer was hollering at us that the inverter was clipping off the 
> high notes, but neither I, nor the audience ever noticed. All I could do was 
> shrug and tell him that he was warned about limited power availability. The 
> music was great.
>  
> By the end of the weekend, those batteries were pretty drained, so it’s hard 
> to actually say that the show was “solar powered”. Sitting around with a few 
> beers afterwards, we all agreed that the ranch owners could install a 2kW 
> grid-tie system on a tracker at the concert site and that system would 
> produce all the energy needed for the show in a year’s time, likely including 
> the energy use for the lighting and by the vendors. This would have required 
> that utility power be brought to the site, which would have been a rather 
> expensive deal, but would have made more sense, and would have made it a more 
> truly solar-powered event.
>  
> Brian Teitelbaum
> AEE Solar
>  
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of benn kilburn
> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 3:51 PM
> To: Wrenches
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival
>  
> Wrenches,
> I have been asked about sizing PV systems for a couple different music 
> festivals that have been run solely off of generators in the past.  The 
> problem i'm having is determining the energy consumption of music/stage 
> (amps, speakers, lights, etc...?) loads as well as concession.  The 
> organizers have never considered the kwh of electricity used and it has never 
> been metered.  I believe the attendance of one festival is expected to be in 
> the range of 5000 and the other closer to 15000 over the course of a weekend.
>  
> Do any of you have any experiences in this area?  How were the loads 
> determined?
>  
> No doubt that generator back-up will still be needed, to what extent, will be 
> determined.  So what we're looking at would be a temporary off-grid PV system 
> with generator back-up...
>  
> Any suggestions on how to proceed with this one?
>  
> benn
> 
> DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. 
> b...@daystarsolar.ca
> 780-906-7807 
> HAVE A SUNNY DAY
>  
>  
> 
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival

[Jason Szumlanski]

Yep- lighting can be a killer, especially if not LED. I have experience with 
mobile solar and stage power. Email me directly for more info. I can tell you 
that I just did an Earth Day concert (3 years running) with a mobile solar 
trailer for 3000 people and they did not make a Magnum 4048 groan. Admittedly, 
it is a small stage setup. It really depends on the event. 

Stage people and performers love to tell you, "I need three 15A outlets and one 
20A outlet," and then they draw a MAX of 5,000W and well under 10kwh for a 4 
hour concert. They have no idea what they really need in terms of RE power. 

Hint: bring a big battery and big inverter- you'll be fine. 

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar

On Apr 27, 2011, at 9:19 PM, "d...@foxfire-energy.com" 
 wrote:

> It's the lights that will get you. JB should chime in here soon, but as I 
> recall SF in Vt maxed at around 15-20kw for sound and in the neighborhood of 
> 50k for lights.
> 
> 
> Dan Brown
> Foxfire Energy Corp.
> Renewable Energy Systems
> (802)-483-2564
> www.Foxfire-Energy.com
> NABCEP #092907-44
> 
> 
>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival
> From: R Ray Walters 
> Date: Wed, April 27, 2011 9:04 pm
> To: RE-wrenches 
> 
> Solarfest in Taos had a solar powered stage for years, so it definitely can 
> be done. I've been into sound stuff lately, and I can say the loads are 
> extremely variable.
> I have a 600 watt rated amp, (class D design) that I peaked at 270 watts 
> input and averaged about 150 watts while I was testing with a very low 
> frequency signal.
> I used a Kill-a-watt meter for the test, and the amp's clip light came on. 
> I also tested a class A amp (much less efficient) but I found the same thing: 
> I never could get the input watts even to half the rated output of the amp.
> No load draw was about 20 watts.
> 
> I'd start at having enough inverter surge power to meet all the amps cont. 
> rated output. You'll also want enough battery to hit the surges on the bass 
> notes. (pretend its a well pump)
> Car audio guys know that more battery = more boom.
> You should be able to get some idea of the loads from the generator size that 
> worked before, also.
> Find out how many bands will play each day, and approx how long their sets 
> will be to get KwH/ day.
> 
> Sinewave is mandatory, although the Taos Solarfest used a pair of Trace 
> SW4024s as I recall.
> The rest of the system was 8 L16s, an 8000 watt generator, and about 1000 
> watt array (again based on my foggy memory)
> This wasn't for the main stage, but a secondary stage that worked well for 
> maybe 5000 people.(their bass was a bit wimpy though. Might want to go with 
> more battery)
> I also recall that this was a trailer mounted rental unit from Sacred Power 
> in Albuquerque, so they may consider some kind of leasing/ rent to own 
> arrangement.
> 
> R. Walters
> r...@solarray.com
> Solar Engineer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 27, 2011, at 5:15 PM, boB Gudgel wrote:
> 
>> On 4/27/2011 3:51 PM, benn kilburn wrote:
>>> 
>>> Wrenches,
>>> I have been asked about sizing PV systems for a couple different music 
>>> festivals that have been run solely off of generators in the past.  The 
>>> problem i'm having is determining the energy consumption of music/stage 
>>> (amps, speakers, lights, etc...?) loads as well as concession.  The 
>>> organizers have never considered the kwh of electricity used and it has 
>>> never been metered.  I believe the attendance of one festival is expected 
>>> to be in the range of 5000 and the other closer to 15000 over the course of 
>>> a weekend.
>>> 
>>> Do any of you have any experiences in this area?  How were the loads 
>>> determined?
>>> 
>>> No doubt that generator back-up will still be needed, to what extent, will 
>>> be determined.  So what we're looking at would be a temporary off-grid PV 
>>> system with generator back-up...
>>> 
>>> Any suggestions on how to proceed with this one?
>>> 
>>> benn
>> 
>> 
>> You might want to check the guys out from this article from a year or two 
>> ago.
>> I think it's just the kind of thing you're looking for.
>> 
>> 
>> http://www.prosoundweb.com/photos/category/C17/
>> 
>> 
>> Four (4) pacific northwest companies  made some of the products for this 
>> tour including the mixer board.
>> 
>> boB
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. 
>>> b...@daystarsolar.ca
>>> 780-906-7807 
>>> HAVE A SUNNY DAY
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
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>> 
>> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival

[Exeltech]

Benn,

I totally agree with everything Brian and Jason said, especially the aspect of 
the chronic and *significant* UNDER-estimation of the power needs by the sound 
equipment crew.

Earlier comments in this thread from Larry (Starlight Solar), Ray Walters, 
Jason (Fafco Solar) are also spot on.  They all clearly know of what they speak.

I also absolutely want to reinforce Brian's recommendation that you use a 
*quality* sine wave inverter -- one that's capable of reacting fast enough for 
the wild swings in power demand placed on it by large audio amplifiers.  As 
Brian mentioned, the Exeltech MX will do this.  I've been using MX inverters to 
provide power for Grammy award winning bands.  I have feedback from every audio 
engineer who's ever used solar power from the Shuttle -- and they all agree 
(yes, 100% of them) .. the power from the MX is cleaner than any power they've 
ever used, including at their recording studios.  Keep in mind .. just because 
an inverter has sine wave output doesn't mean it's capable of reacting quickly 
to keep the output voltage stable.

Brian .. by the way .. don't worry about running the MX in the red.  This is an 
indication of the inverter being called on to deliver its max power, not an 
overload condition.  The MX are rated to run in the red at 100% of their rated 
power 24/7, and they'll do it for as long as your DC source holds out.  The 
inverter wasn't clipping the AC waveform in the red, even at less than 24Vdc 
input.  What the sound guy heard was distortion in either the amplifier(s), 
speakers, or both.  This could have been caused if their extension cords from 
the MX inverter were too light for the load current .. but wasn't the MX 
inverter.  It'll deliver a sine wave down to less than 22 volts, and will turn 
off due to DC undervoltage before the sine wave begins to clip.  Since it 
continued to operate .. you were getting a clean sine wave the entire time.

Benn .. I've been powering outdoor events for more than 10 years.  Here's a 
link to a PDF on my solar trailer (the "Solar Shuttle"):

http://www.txses.org/NTREG/dnld/SolarShuttleInfo_2010.pdf

If you wish to see photos of the Shuttle under construction, here's a link:

http://www.txses.org/NTREG/projects.htm


The Shuttle has 2150 watts in PV, dual Blue Sky Energy MPPT charge controllers, 
20 kWh in battery, and 12 kW in Exeltech MX sine wave inverters.  It's all been 
flawless, including operation at over 100F.  Full specs are on the last page in 
the PDF.

The trailer will power events for up to 15,000 people (+/-) depending on a 
number of variables.  The largest event it's ever powered had 18,000 attendees.

Things to avoid at all cost:

Incandescent stage lamps.  Period.  (Dan from FoxFire and Jason from Fafco are 
100% on target on this.)

* Tube amplifiers of any kind.
* Class 'A' amplifiers (tube or solid state - doesn't matter).
  Most sound people and musicians are clueless about this aspect
  of their equipment. You'll have to either get the make and model of
  the amps and talk with the respective manufacturers .. or go to a lot
  of trouble to measure idle power for each.

* Events at night.  For events after dark, you're running totally on battery.
  This can be a pain.  For significant power draw at the event, you'll need
  very *BIG* batteries.


As Brian mentioned, amplifier "idle power" can be a killer.  I provided power 
for a soundstage last Saturday for a small Earth Day type event that ran for 10 
hours, and attracted 5,000 people.  The stage had 7 kW in audio amplifiers, 
plus mixers, monitor amplifiers, and other electronics.  They frequently hit 10 
kW+ on audio peaks, and consumed 1.8 kW just sitting there.  Thankfully, we had 
pretty good sun and the PV was able to keep up much of the day.  This was a 
*small* sound stage.  Brian T. and Dave Katz have handled some monster stages 
by comparison.

Remember too .. headliner bands tend to be the loudest and most power-hungry of 
the groups.  They're generally the last ones on stage, just when the batteries 
are really getting tired.

Jay's comment about blowing fuses also merits a comment.  Fuses are appropriate 
in many applications.  I don't feel that applies here.  I used DC-rated 
magnetic hydraulic breakers with appropriate amperage and AIC ratings in the 
Solar Shuttle systems.  They're very expensive but aren't affected by 
temperature (as are fuses and ordinary breakers).  Breakers aren't as fast as 
fuses during an over-current protective event, but they can be turned off .. or 
re-set.

Powering events can be a lot of fun yet nerve-wracking all at the same time.  
One excellent benefit .. you get a front-row seat for the music.  You also sit 
there and hope the batteries hold out -- you're a front-and-center target for 
the music fans if they don't.

If you want to discuss the Shuttle in detail, and/or powering events in 
general, contact me off list and I'll be happy to cover whatever info I can.


Dan


--- On Wed,

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival

[boB Gudgel]

Just as an aside, today's inverters are pretty much a Class D audio 
amplifier anyway.


An inverter  ~could~ actually be used for a subwoofer amplifer in some 
cases.


I've always wanted to have an inverter with an audio jack on it just for 
that and actually

did try that back a Trace Engineering in the lab.  It worked !

Hey Dan, maybe you guys could do that !Great Solar Shuttle info BTW !

boB

May I tweet you to a woofer ?




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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival

[R Ray Walters]

Dan;

Your system sounds great. I'd love to hear it sometime.
Just one question: how come no tube amps?
You're going to have some guitar players screaming; most of the best guitar 
amps are all tube these days.
I know they waste a lot of power, but they're usually small compared to the PA 
system.
I've measured a few with a no load draw in the 20 to 40 watt range, maybe 
peaking at 100 watts. (Marshall 100w head)
I would think the Exeltech would make it sound better than they've ever heard.
Have you had problems?

R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer



> 
> Things to avoid at all cost:
> 
> Incandescent stage lamps.  Period.  (Dan from FoxFire and Jason from Fafco 
> are 100% on target on this.)
> 
> * Tube amplifiers of any kind.
> * Class 'A' amplifiers (tube or solid state - doesn't matter).
>   Most sound people and musicians are clueless about this aspect
>   of their equipment. You'll have to either get the make and model of
>   the amps and talk with the respective manufacturers .. or go to a lot
>   of trouble to measure idle power for each.
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> -
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery charging, more details

[Hugh]

At 22:38 -0500 26/4/11, William Dorsett wrote:


OK, I can see how you could input the amphr capacity of a given set 
of new batteries, but would someone explain how a controller which 
counts amps can adjust as the battery bank ages? As the capacity of 
the bank drops over time, and this varies by different 
manufacturers, it still seems that a controller which measures 
voltage would track the SOC of the bank better than current counting.




Keeping track of SOC by counting Ah is a challenge in itself, but the 
battery manufacturers' instructions don't require this.  Fullriver 
and Surrette require the you make a transition between Absorption and 
Float charge regimes/stages at a certain point where the charging 
current drops to a given level (although the Rolls FAQ is puzzling in 
its wording there - suggesting that you can charge at 0.25 x C20 
indefinitely!).  Most stand alone RE system controllers do not 
possess the ability to monitor the battery current, so they cannot 
follow these instructions.  This is my concern.


At 10:54 -0700 26/4/11, Rick Cullen - Blue Sky Energy, Inc. wrote:
There has been some discussion in the past few days regarding AGM 
batteries and charge control switching to Float based on net battery 
charge current matched to battery size and that our IPN-ProRemote 
product can provide this.


Rick's Blue Sky product fits the bill but it seems expensive in the 
context of very small systems.  Phil Smith of Barden Batteries in the 
UK has told me that a correctly programmed Tristar controller will do 
a good job even though it does not 'know' the battery current.  This 
is good news.


I am still deeply puzzled about sealed batteries as I learn that you 
must not make them gas but you have to be sure to charge them well 
(like any other lead acid battery) or they will fail prematurely. 
That's why I would like to be able to fit controllers that monitor 
the battery current and use this to determine the transition to a 
float charge.


Maybe it would help if somebody told me what sort of charging would 
actually damage a sealed battery.  Then I would simply charge them as 
hard as the wind/sun allows while avoiding doing that.

--
Hugh Piggott

Scoraig
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