Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant
Magnum with the standard control. Have yet to have a end user mess it up that can't be fixed with a phone call. In fact with over 8 systems out there only one customer that has had any problems at all. -- Pine Ridge Products LLC 1646 East Highwood Rd Belt, MT 59412 www.pineridgeproducts.com www.chinookturbines.com On Monday, October 17, 2011 at 10:23 -Oct 17, William Miller wrote: Mark: The XW SCP is no picnic either. Are there any off-grid inverters with a decent user control panel? William At 08:25 PM 10/17/2011, you wrote: I am in full agreement. The Outback remote darn near needs a college degree to operate. The sensitive parameters you mentioned should be in the password protected area. Mark ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org (mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org) Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm (http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm) Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org (http://www.members.re-wrenches.org) ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant
I second your rant. The charge control setting has been an issue for me, too. It's especially hard to diagnose remotely when there is solar charging the batteries and the voltage is coming up. You may make the false assumption that the generator is charging the batteries. The MATE 3 is a bit nicer, because you can see charging kW at a glance, but even that is not foolproof. I wouldn't care about the manual so much if the interface was easy to understand. Did you read the manual for your iPhone? Of course not... not necessary... Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:49 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant Friends: I just returned home from a long drive to troubleshoot a problem with an Outback FX system. I found that the customer, in the process of using a remote Mate to start the generator, had inadvertently turned the global charge control setting to off. This causes a problem that is very serious but hard to detect: The generator will run but it will not charge the batteries. No one can know how long ago this was done, but in the meantime the customers batteries were chronically undercharged. Just a month ago I found another Outback system where the customer (or someone from another solar company) had selected the drop setting from the use menu. Similar results to the previous case, but in this situation the customer had to use the bypass breakers to get power to the house while the batteries did not charge. To my mind, this is one of the big problems with all manufacturers of technical equipment: Poor user interface. Who, in their right mind, would put controls to disable critical functions in the same menu tree as the control to do a common place, frequently used function such as starting a generator remotely? And the screens are all almost identical. This is extremely poor design. On a similar subject, all off-grid inverter manuals are written very poorly. For example, why put the installation instructions in the front of the manual? You install a system once, but you operate it every day. The installation instructions should be in the back and the operating instructions in the front (or better yet, in separate books). Why are we trying to use the same manual for the installer as for the user? A majority of users need a 4 page manual that includes: 1. how to turn the system on and off, 2. how to read and interpret a few critical meter functions, 3. how (and why) to equalize batteries and 4. what to do when your power goes out. That's it. For the few users that want to know more, they can wade through the installation / technical manual. We provide our own checklists to all of our customers to perform the limited functions described above. For a sample, see: file:///D:/William/Web/Dreamweaver/Miller%20Solar/MillerSolar/Services/S upport/_support.htmll file:///D:\William\Web\Dreamweaver\Miller%2520Solar\MillerSolar\Service s\Support\_support.htmll We provide these instruction sets to our install clients and sell them to others, including other installers (off list, if you are interested). I am volunteering to be on a peer review panel to critique users manuals for off-grid inverter manufacturer's. Maybe if a few of us grey beards look over these manuals before they are printed, we can get them straightened out. Anyone else on board? Rant off. William Miller PS: Any manual not pre-punched for a three hole binder is not worth the paper it is printed on. Wm William Miller Miller Solar Voice :805-438-5600 email: will...@millersolar.com http://millersolar.com http://millersolar.com/ License No. C-10-773985 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant
The setup and control for the Victrons is pretty friendly, although it runs on a PC.You can get a cheap notebook for the price of the Outback remote. Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant From: William Miller will...@millersolar.com Date: Tue, October 18, 2011 12:23 am To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Mark: The XW SCP is no picnic either. Are there any off-grid inverters with a decent user control panel? William At 08:25 PM 10/17/2011, you wrote: I am in full agreement. The Outback remote darn near needs a college degree to operate. The sensitive parameters you mentioned should be in the password protected area. Mark ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant
Comment on manuals in general -If you need to read the manual, it's just not designed friendly enough. Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant From: "Jason Szumlanski" ja...@fafcosolar.com Date: Tue, October 18, 2011 7:58 am To: "RE-wrenches" re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org I second your rant. The charge control setting has been an issue for me, too. It’s especially hard to diagnose remotely when there is solar charging the batteries and the voltage is coming up. You may make the false assumption that the generator is charging the batteries. The MATE 3 is a bit nicer, because you can see charging kW at a glance, but even that is not foolproof. I wouldn’t care about the manual so much if the interface was easy to understand. Did you read the manual for your iPhone? Of course not… not necessary…Jason SzumlanskiFafco SolarFrom: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William MillerSent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:49 PMTo: RE-wrenchesSubject: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rantFriends:I just returned home from a long drive to troubleshoot a problem with an Outback FX system. I found that the customer, in the process of using a remote Mate to start the generator, had inadvertently turned the global charge control setting to "off". This causes a problem that is very serious but hard to detect: The generator will run but it will not charge the batteries. No one can know how long ago this was done, but in the meantime the customers batteries were chronically undercharged.Just a month ago I found another Outback system where the customer (or someone from another "solar" company) had selected the "drop" setting from the "use" menu. Similar results to the previous case, but in this situation the customer had to use the bypass breakers to get power to the house while the batteries did not charge.To my mind, this is one of the big problems with all manufacturers of technical equipment: Poor user interface. Who, in their right mind, would put controls to disable critical functions in the same menu tree as the control to do a common place, frequently used function such as starting a generator remotely? And the screens are all almost identical. This is extremely poor design.On a similar subject, all off-grid inverter manuals are written very poorly. For example, why put the installation instructions in the front of the manual? You install a system once, but you operate it every day. The installation instructions should be in the back and the operating instructions in the front (or better yet, in separate books). Why are we trying to use the same manual for the installer as for the user? A majority of users need a 4 page manual that includes: 1. how to turn the system on and off, 2. how to read and interpret a few critical meter functions, 3. how (and why) to equalize batteries and 4. what to do when your power goes out. That's it. For the few users that want to know more, they can wade through the installation / technical manual.We provide our own checklists to all of our customers to perform the limited functions described above. For a sample, see: file:///D:/William/Web/Dreamweaver/Miller%20Solar/MillerSolar/Services/Support/_support.htmllWe provide these instruction sets to our install clients and sell them to others, including other installers (off list, if you are interested).I am volunteering to be on a peer review panel to critique users manuals for off-grid inverter manufacturer's. Maybe if a few of us grey beards look over these manuals before they are printed, we can get them straightened out. Anyone else on board?Rant off.William MillerPS: Any manual not pre-punched for a three hole binder is not worth the paper it is printed on.WmWilliam Miller Miller SolarVoice :805-438-5600email: will...@millersolar.comhttp://millersolar.comLicense No. C-10-773985___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant
Ray, without a Mate how do your clients initiate an equalize charge via generator ? Do you just set the Bulk Charge volts at an equalize V level ? Carl, solar...@cybermesa.com On 10/17/2011 10:09 PM, R Ray Walters wrote: For this and cost reasons ($295!) I almost never offer a MATE on my Outback systems. We just keep one on the truck adjust everything, and then pull it. I've waited for close to 10 years now for the computer interface, so you could pull everything up in a Windows screen, click on the particular parameter for more info and adjustment. The Pentametric does that, and its nice except for the old serial connection. William, I'd be interested in being on the manual review board. Do we get paid anything or is it sort of like all that unofficial product beta testing we've done.. R. Walters r...@solarray.com mailto:r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Oct 17, 2011, at 10:25 PM, m...@hurshtown.com mailto:m...@hurshtown.com m...@hurshtown.com mailto:m...@hurshtown.com wrote: I am in full agreement. The Outback remote darn near needs a college degree to operate. The sensitive parameters you mentioned should be in the password protected area. Mark Original Message Subject: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant From: William Miller will...@millersolar.com mailto:will...@millersolar.com Date: Mon, October 17, 2011 7:49 pm To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Friends: I just returned home from a long drive to troubleshoot a problem with an Outback FX system. I found that the customer, in the process of using a remote Mate to start the generator, had inadvertently turned the global charge control setting to off. This causes a problem that is very serious but hard to detect: The generator will run but it will not charge the batteries. No one can know how long ago this was done, but in the meantime the customers batteries were chronically undercharged. Just a month ago I found another Outback system where the customer (or someone from another solar company) had selected the drop setting from the use menu. Similar results to the previous case, but in this situation the customer had to use the bypass breakers to get power to the house while the batteries did not charge. To my mind, this is one of the big problems with all manufacturers of technical equipment: Poor user interface. Who, in their right mind, would put controls to disable critical functions in the same menu tree as the control to do a common place, frequently used function such as starting a generator remotely? And the screens are all almost identical. This is extremely poor design. On a similar subject, all off-grid inverter manuals are written very poorly. For example, why put the installation instructions in the front of the manual? You install a system once, but you operate it every day. The installation instructions should be in the back and the operating instructions in the front (or better yet, in separate books). Why are we trying to use the same manual for the installer as for the user? A majority of users need a 4 page manual that includes: 1. how to turn the system on and off, 2. how to read and interpret a few critical meter functions, 3. how (and why) to equalize batteries and 4. what to do when your power goes out. That's it. For the few users that want to know more, they can wade through the installation / technical manual. We provide our own checklists to all of our customers to perform the limited functions described above. For a sample, see: file:///D:/William/Web/Dreamweaver/Miller%20Solar/MillerSolar/Services/Support/_support.htmll file://D/William/Web/Dreamweaver/Miller%2520Solar/MillerSolar/Services/Support/_support.htmll We provide these instruction sets to our install clients and sell them to others, including other installers (off list, if you are interested). I am volunteering to be on a peer review panel to critique users manuals for off-grid inverter manufacturer's. Maybe if a few of us grey beards look over these manuals before they are printed, we can get them straightened out. Anyone else on board? Rant off. William Miller PS: Any manual not pre-punched for a three hole binder is not worth the paper it is printed on. Wm William Miller Miller Solar Voice :805-438-5600 email: will...@millersolar.com mailto:will...@millersolar.com http://millersolar.com http://millersolar.com/License No. C-10-773985 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings:
Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant
I second the vote for Magnum Energy remotes. When combined with the BMK battery monitor and AGS, there is simply nothing better on the market as far as function and ease of use. The new ME-ARC offers very advanced control for off grid or grid connected systems. And Made in USA makes me a huge fan. In our early years we only sold Outback for off grid use. Although reliable, the configuration, programing and customer use has created much frustration and cost. When your customer is 6 hours drive into Mexico, I want things to be easy for the customer to understand. After the FM controllers were released, we had several failures that soured my opinion on Outback. It would of helped if they covered my cost but no compensation was given. Now we only install Magnum products for off grid systems and high end mobile installs. I'm not disssing Outback as I think they are much better than the any of the other Made in China products. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 18, 2011, at 3:16 AM, PRP wrote: Magnum with the standard control. Have yet to have a end user mess it up that can't be fixed with a phone call. In fact with over 8 systems out there only one customer that has had any problems at all. -- Pine Ridge Products LLC 1646 East Highwood Rd Belt, MT 59412 www.pineridgeproducts.com www.chinookturbines.com On Monday, October 17, 2011 at 10:23 -Oct 17, William Miller wrote: Mark: The XW SCP is no picnic either. Are there any off-grid inverters with a decent user control panel? William ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant
I just installed a Magnum system with control and the customer was impressed with the ease of operation. They have nothing to compare against, but they seem very pleased. The comment about the IPhone not needing a manual is great! Jesse Sent from my iPhone On Oct 18, 2011, at 9:11 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systemsla...@starlightsolar.com wrote: I second the vote for Magnum Energy remotes. When combined with the BMK battery monitor and AGS, there is simply nothing better on the market as far as function and ease of use. The new ME-ARC offers very advanced control for off grid or grid connected systems. And Made in USA makes me a huge fan. In our early years we only sold Outback for off grid use. Although reliable, the configuration, programing and customer use has created much frustration and cost. When your customer is 6 hours drive into Mexico, I want things to be easy for the customer to understand. After the FM controllers were released, we had several failures that soured my opinion on Outback. It would of helped if they covered my cost but no compensation was given. Now we only install Magnum products for off grid systems and high end mobile installs. I'm not disssing Outback as I think they are much better than the any of the other Made in China products. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 18, 2011, at 3:16 AM, PRP wrote: Magnum with the standard control. Have yet to have a end user mess it up that can't be fixed with a phone call. In fact with over 8 systems out there only one customer that has had any problems at all. -- Pine Ridge Products LLC 1646 East Highwood Rd Belt, MT 59412 www.pineridgeproducts.com www.chinookturbines.com On Monday, October 17, 2011 at 10:23 -Oct 17, William Miller wrote: Mark: The XW SCP is no picnic either. Are there any off-grid inverters with a decent user control panel? William ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
