Re: [RE-wrenches] Diversion load for AC coupled system

2011-11-30 Thread Hugh

At 18:38 -0800 29/11/11, jay peltz wrote:

Hi Kent,

You can't parallel them.
They each must have their own load.


But you can connect two Tristars to the same battery, each with its 
own load and this is normal recommended practice.


The two controllers may not agree exactly about when to move to the 
float stage, but when you think it through that doesn't actually 
matter at all.


At 18:30 -0800 29/11/11, Kent Osterberg wrote:
The Tristar 60 manual says to keep diversion loads below 45 amps (or 
somewhere close to that).


Load sizing is very confusing, but no, you can use any resistive load 
that will not exceed 60 amps (at EQ voltage).  The 40 amps is the 
maximum renewables input (source current) if you are going to conform 
to the NEC requirement that the dump load must be sized to 150% of 
the maximum rated current of the solar, wind and hydro sources 
combined.


In short you can use a 40 amps source provided that you have the 
capacity to dump 60 amps, and this depends on finding a suitable 
load.  (In reality a load that dumps 60 amps at 60 volts will only 
dump 54 amps at 54 volts float so you are down to a 36 amp source 
current but this may be built into the safety margin already, who 
knows?.)


I normally choose a big wire-wound resistor.  In this case one ohm 
4kW would be suitable.  In reality this would be built from several 
1kW or whatever I could find.  For example 4 resistors at 1 ohm and 1 
kW, configured in two pairs series/parallel.


More about the subject here. http://scoraigwind.co.uk/?page_id=637

Best wishes,
--
Hugh Piggott

Scoraig
http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk
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[RE-wrenches] module storage

2011-11-30 Thread jay peltz
Hi All,

I've got a project coming up that might need 2 modules just to fill in some 
space but not be electrically used.

So how best to install them 

VOC 
or 
ISC

thanks,

jay

peltz power

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Re: [RE-wrenches] calculating low string voltage

2011-11-30 Thread David Brearley
Here¹s a link to an Excel version of our c-Si PV module specifications
table:

https://solarprofessional.com/webexclusive/

It includes coefficients for Voc, Pmp and Isc. For Vmp calculations, use the
coefficient of Pmp, which is primarily voltage driven. (Temperature
coefficients of current are VERY small, as seem in the Isc values.)

David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor
SolarPro magazine 
NABCEP Certified PV Installer 
david.brear...@solarprofessional.com
Direct: 541.261.6545


On 11/30/11 12:18 AM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote:

I pulled the voltage temp coefficient off of an article from Solar Pro
 Magazine. It is indeed listed for Voc.  I have never seen a separate
 coefficient for Vmpp. Maybe we should use the Power mpp coefficient and then
 factor the slight rise in current by temp (which would make Vmpp even worse).
 My Solar world example shows a Pmpp coeff. of -0.47, while the current coeff.
 (short circuit though) is positive 0.04
  so correcting just for voltage, that would be at or slightly worse than
 Bill's suggested  -0.5 coefficient for Vmpp.  Which would pull the Vmpp from
 35 to 28 in my example, not 30.4 v. The degradation and mismatch Bill points
 out make sense, but is it really another 15% combined?   Would it be fair to
 say different modules and manufacturers would degrade at different rates?
 Finally, the ambient temp I picked was the opposite of the NEC suggested
 ASHRAE low temp. Is that really the best number for calculating this? Or is
 that too extreme a temperature, that wouldn't occur most of the time?
  
  Now I have to correct that coefficient for my next class..but that's why
 I asked for everybody to look it over.
  
  Thanks Everyone,
  
  Ray
  
  
  On 11/29/2011 8:08 PM, Doug Wells wrote:
 Ray, 
 
  
  
 I agree with what you have calculated, but the temp. coef. listed is for a
 Voc.  For voltage sag, the temp. value would be a Vmp value and I don't know
 how much of a difference that makes.   I have seen some manufacturers offer a
 temp. coefficient for Vmp as well as Voc.  Not sure what the difference would
 be, but if it gets down to a few volts with the PE, it is would be worth
 checking.  
  
 
  
   
  
  
 Doug Wells
  
 The Solar Specialists
  
 Morrisville, VT 05661
  
 (p) 802-223-7014
  
 (c) 802-498-5856
  
 www.thesolarspecialists.com http://www.thesolarspecialists.com
  
  
   
  
  
  
 On Nov 29, 2011, at 5:55 PM, Ray Walters wrote:
  
   
  I'm prepping for a class on this very subject tonight, so I'll just wrap up
 everybody's good points:
  V min = Vmpp x (1- temp diff x Temp coefficient)
  
  So first, I'd take your ambient temp from ASHRAE Extreme Annual Mean
 Maximum, then add Scott's adder (ie roof mount off 6  = +30C) so let's say
 the ASHRAE # is 35C, then you have 30 + 35 = 65C cell temp
  then, 65C - 25C(STC) = a differential of 40 deg C from standard test
 conditions
  
  The Aug/ Sept 2010 edition of Solar Pro shows the coefficients for numerous
 modules, 
  Solar world for example is -0.33 %/degC
  
  With a 40 degC differential then, the voltage would change by 40 x .33, or
 13.2%
  
  So just assuming Vmpp =  35v, the adjustment would be 35v x (100%-13.2%), or
 86.8% of 35v, 
  which gives a Volt min of 30.4 v
  
  Somebody please correct my math if I got that wrong.
  Also probably more interesting is the actual Power coefficient, which shows
 the total power losses from higher temperatures, not just voltage. The
 calculation would be similar.
  
  Ray
  
  On 11/29/2011 2:07 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote:
  
  
 I am on road so I have no texts with me, but the same formula applies about
 0.4% per degree (less voltage) or use the module label  voltage coefficent.
 However you must use the MPPT voltage and the temperature = (temperature
 ambient (2% high) plus roof temperature warming)  The roof temperature is
 hard to find good values because it depends upon spacing between roof and
 module.  I add 15 deg C for most situations.
  
  
  
 Best I can do from memory.
  
 DT
  
 
  
  
  
   From: Kirk Herander k...@vtsolar.com mailto:k...@vtsolar.com
  To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
  Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 1:48 PM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] calculating low string voltage
   
  
   
  
  
 I am in debate with a PE over calculation of low voltage of a series string
 on a hot day. He insists that an arbitrary high cell temp is factored in,
 not just ambient temperature. Could someone please give an accepted formula
 for this calculation? Thanks. I cannot find a clear reference to low voltage
 calculation on a hot day (but every reference material is clear on how to
 calculate high voltage on a cold day).
  
   
  
 Kirk Herander
  
 VT Solar, LLC
  
 dba Vermont Solar Engineering
  
 NABCEPTM Certified installer Charter Member
  
 NYSERDA-eligible  Installer
  
 VT RE Incentive Program Partner
  
   
  
  
  
  
  

Re: [RE-wrenches] calculating low string voltage

2011-11-30 Thread Kirk Herander
Thanks for all the good response. Speaking of monkey wrenches, these are
Sanyo HIT Double panels, mounted on a rack which is 5 ½ feet  above the roof
surface. They will absorb reflected light on the backside, so I assume the
cells will operate at a higher temp. But they are elevated enough to
simulate a pole-mount, thus lowering operating cell temp. So what operating
temp to use? If I use 25 C as the operating temp, the low voltage calc comes
out to 301 vdc (inverter min is 300 – using SMA US8000). If I use 15 C the
calc is 308 vdc. This is for a 6 panel string. Unfortunately I really don’t
want to use 7 panel strings due to the layout. If I used a US7000 it would
work since min vdc in is 250. However the inverters are part of a SunnyTower
and I can’t swap a 7000 for an 8000 without voiding the Tower UL listing.

 

Kirk Herander

VT Solar, LLC

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM Certified installer Charter Member

NYSERDA-eligible Installer

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
b...@midnitesolar.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:03 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] calculating low string voltage

 



If you really want to throw a monkey wrench into the mix, bring up partial
shading...

Or, maybe that's just not allowed in that debate ??Just a thought.

boB







On 11/29/2011 8:39 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: 

Kirk,

You've got some good feedback on this from Ray and Bill. I'll try to add a
little more. Most module datasheets show a normal operating cell
temperature, NOCT, value that's typically 47.5°C. That's 20°C ambient
temperature, 800 W/sq m, and calm wind and nothing blocking the airflow on
the back of the module. That 27.5°C temperature rise should be pretty close
to the temperature rise that occurs for a pole-top mount. It's common to see
people use 25°C for modules on a pole and 30°C or 35°C on a roof and there
are data that support these typical values. With 1000 W/sq irradiance, the
temperature rise can obviously be more too. Between the intensity of the
sun, the direction of the sun, the color of the roof, the spacing off the
roof, and the wind speed there is a lot that is different from one system to
the next or even one day to the next.

Most PV module spec sheets don't give you a temperature coefficient for Vmp.
I've seen people use the the Voc coefficient, usually expressed as a
percentage, for both Voc and Vmp. Big mistake. Data from NREL indicates as
Bill said, the temperature coefficient for Vmp is higher than that the
temperature coefficient for Voc. That's particularly true when the
coefficient is expressed as a percentage per °C. Since there are very few
manufacturer's that give both temperature coefficients, I'll use a value
from an old Evergreen module for an example. The Evergreen ES-195 datasheet
shows Voc = 30.5 volts with a coefficient of -0.34%/°C and Vmp = 27.1 volts
with a coefficient of -0.47%/°C. Since one shouldn't add volts and percents,
I'll put the temperature coefficients in volts/°C: Voc = 30.5 V - 0.10 V/°C
and Vmp = 27.1 V - 0.13V/°C. So Vmp is moving faster than Voc, but not a lot
faster. That's generically true for c-Si or poly-Si.



Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com
t: 541-568-4882


On 11/29/2011 11:48 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: 

I am in debate with a PE over calculation of low voltage of a series string
on a hot day. He insists that an arbitrary high cell temp is factored in,
not just ambient temperature. Could someone please give an accepted formula
for this calculation? Thanks. I cannot find a clear reference to low voltage
calculation on a hot day (but every reference material is clear on how to
calculate high voltage on a cold day).

 

Kirk Herander

VT Solar, LLC

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM Certified installer Charter Member

NYSERDA-eligible Installer

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

 










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Re: [RE-wrenches] Diversion load for AC coupled system

2011-11-30 Thread Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems
Thanks Kent, Kirpal, Jay, Hugh, Et al,

At 3.8kW, each TS-60 will divert up to 34 amps @ 56 volts, well under 75%. I 
will have isolated loads for each controller. Kent, what am I overestimating?

One concern about two controllers is that if one has a lower turn on voltage 
than the other, the total load might be applied to it until voltage rise causes 
the second controller to to divert power. Without a way to limit controller 
current, I think this could be a problem. Over-current failure of one 
controller would cascade to the second then cause battery over-voltage until 
the Magnum shifted frequency to stop the grid inverter. Has anyone done 
diversion with two controllers?

Another thought I had is to use a single controller for relay control of a 120 
or 240 volt load. I'm thinking this will be easier but I'd sure like some input 
if you have done this.

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Nov 29, 2011, at 7:30 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote:

 Larry,
 
 I think Magnum's recommendation is more about proper battery charging than 
 safety.
 
 I'll second Kirpal's and Jeremy's recommendations for loads. The Tristar is 
 probably the best choice for this job, but you are overestimating what you 
 can do with it and paralleling two may have some coordination issues. The 
 Tristar 60 manual says to keep diversion loads below 45 amps (or somewhere 
 close to that). I think its a reliability issue so with a secondary shut down 
 method, you might be okay pushing it a bit. I'm not sure how you get two of 
 them to work together.
 
 Kent Osterberg
 Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
 www.bluemountainsolar.com
 t: 541-568-4882
 
 
 On 11/29/2011 5:35 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
 Hello Wrenches,
 
 I would like some advice on diversion load control of 3800 watts of PV 
 solar. The battery bank is 48 volts and the battery inverter is the 
 MS4448PAE. This will AC couple with a grid tied inverter during an outage. 
 Magnum Energy recommends the addition of a dump load for safe battery 
 voltage control.  The customer may leave the home unattended for weeks so I 
 am looking for reliability here. Quality, as well.
 
 A pair of Tristar 60's should be suitable for the 3.8kW output but I haven't 
 been able to find a load that is sized for this job. I welcome any advice on 
 this subject.  Thanks in advance.
 
 Larry Crutcher
 Starlight Solar Power Systems
 
 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Diversion load for AC coupled system

2011-11-30 Thread Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems
David,
Ah..I think I see what you are saying. But, don't you mean .2 volts lower than 
the diversion load? That way there will only be limited current left for the 
diversion controller to handle. If it is the other way, what stops full current 
from flowing through the diversion controller if the .2 volts is not reached? 
Or is .2 volts two close to worry about that?

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Nov 29, 2011, at 8:51 PM, David Katz wrote:

 Larry,
 If you need a bigger diversion than a Tristar can handle, you can use a relay 
 controlled by the auxiliary output of a charge control or inverter and have 
 the relay close when the voltage is 0.2 volts higher than the diversion 
 voltage.  You can switch on a load that is 50 to 75 % of the diversion load 
 and let the diversion controller do the fine tuning.  Let me know if that 
 does not make sense. 
 David Katz
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
 [mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com]
 Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 05:35 PM
 To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Diversion load for AC coupled system
 
 Hello Wrenches,
 
 I would like some advice on diversion load control of 3800 watts of PV solar. 
 The battery bank is 48 volts and the battery inverter is the MS4448PAE. This 
 will AC couple with a grid tied inverter during an outage. Magnum Energy 
 recommends the addition of a dump load for safe battery voltage control.  The 
 customer may leave the home unattended for weeks so I am looking for 
 reliability here. Quality, as well. 
 
 A pair of Tristar 60's should be suitable for the 3.8kW output but I haven't 
 been able to find a load that is sized for this job. I welcome any advice on 
 this subject.  Thanks in advance.
 
 Larry Crutcher
 Starlight Solar Power Systems
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Re: [RE-wrenches] module storage

2011-11-30 Thread Bill Brooks
Open circuit. If something comes apart internally at short circuit you have
a possible arc.

Bill.

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 7:07 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] module storage

Hi All,

I've got a project coming up that might need 2 modules just to fill in some
space but not be electrically used.

So how best to install them 

VOC 
or 
ISC

thanks,

jay

peltz power

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Diversion load for AC coupled system

2011-11-30 Thread David Katz
Larry,
I think you want the PWM controller to start first so the turn on will be 
smooth.  If the current capacity of the diversion controller is exceeded then 
you want the relay to switch in the big load.  At that point the diversion 
controller will back off and pickup the difference.  That is why I suggested 
the the relay controlled load be 50 to 75% of the pwm diversion load, so that 
whenever it turns on the pwm controller will be working, too.
David

David Katz
CTO  Founder
AEE Solar Inc
P: 707 825-1200
F: 707 825-1202
dk...@aeesolar.com
www.aeesolar.com
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Crutcher, 
Starlight Solar Power Systems
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:49 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Diversion load for AC coupled system

David,
Ah..I think I see what you are saying. But, don't you mean .2 volts lower than 
the diversion load? That way there will only be limited current left for the 
diversion controller to handle. If it is the other way, what stops full current 
from flowing through the diversion controller if the .2 volts is not reached? 
Or is .2 volts two close to worry about that?

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Recycling failed modules

2011-11-30 Thread Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems
Take them to Quartzsite, AZ in January. You'll sell them in a day. Recycle that 
junk into cash! 
Seriously, we often get calls from desert rats (picture some occupy wall street 
types with wiry hair and leathery, dust covered skin from dwelling in the 
desert too long) looking for used or busted modules. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems





On Nov 30, 2011, at 10:17 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

 Wrenches,
 Over the years we have gathered a collection of failed and shattered modules 
 of various brands. It's a collection because we haven't wanted them to go 
 into our landfill. It's time to get them out of here as our space needs 
 increase.
 
 What's the sustainable and responsible way to deal with them? I'd be willing 
 to remove the aluminum frames where possible and ship the rest to a center 
 that would be equipped to responsibly recycle the materials, but I don't know 
 where to begin. 
 
 I suspect we're not the only ones facing this, and solutions are out there. 
 All suggestions appreciated, thank you.
 Allan
 -- 
 Allan Sindelar
 al...@positiveenergysolar.com
 NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
 NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
 New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
 Positive Energy, Inc.
 3201 Calle Marie
 Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
 505 424-1112

 www.positiveenergysolar.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Recycling failed modules

2011-11-30 Thread Ray Walters
I pulled the Al off, and recycled the framing with our cans ( Al scrap 
is over 50 cents/lb).  The glass/ silicon I took to a computer/ 
electronics recycling drop off.  Did I do the right thing? Never know, 
but shipping them seems more environmentally damaging than the land 
fill.  Many places recycle electronics, I saw a drop off at Best Buy the 
other day.


Ray

On 11/30/2011 11:32 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
wrote:
Take them to Quartzsite, AZ in January. You'll sell them in a day. 
Recycle that junk into cash!
Seriously, we often get calls from desert rats (picture some occupy 
wall street types with wiry hair and leathery, dust covered skin from 
dwelling in the desert too long) looking for used or busted modules.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems





On Nov 30, 2011, at 10:17 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote:


Wrenches,
Over the years we have gathered a collection of failed and shattered 
modules of various brands. It's a collection because we haven't 
wanted them to go into our landfill. It's time to get them out of 
here as our space needs increase.


What's the sustainable and responsible way to deal with them? I'd be 
willing to remove the aluminum frames where possible and ship the 
rest to a center that would be equipped to responsibly recycle the 
materials, but I don't know where to begin.


I suspect we're not the only ones facing this, and solutions are out 
there. All suggestions appreciated, thank you.

Allan
--
*Allan Sindelar*
_Allan@positiveenergysolar.com_ mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
*Positive Energy, Inc.*
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
*505 424-1112*



_www.positiveenergysolar.com http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/_




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Diversion load for AC coupled system

2011-11-30 Thread Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems
If the current capacity of the diversion controller is exceeded then you want 
the relay to switch in the big load.

A few questions.
How do I turn on the big load based on current? The controller does not have a 
current detector, only voltage. Controller on first could still allow 
over-current if the voltage does not rise another .2 volts. Correct?

Here's a scenario: Sun is up and voltage rises slowly to the diversion 
controller set point. PWM starts and maintains the voltage. Current continues 
to increase but the load is keeping the voltage constant until the controller 
is overloaded. 

It looks like the big load comes on only if power is high enough to overcome 
the response time of the PWM circuit in the diversion controller thus allowing 
the voltage pass the .2 volt offset. Also, my thoughts are the hysteresis in 
the SS relay needs to be broad enough to keep the big load on so it drops out 
last.

Sorry that I'm not seeing your whole picture yet, David. The operation must be 
bullet proof. Can you elaborate more?

Larry 


On Nov 30, 2011, at 11:05 AM, David Katz wrote:

 Larry,
 I think you want the PWM controller to start first so the turn on will be 
 smooth.  If the current capacity of the diversion controller is exceeded then 
 you want the relay to switch in the big load.  At that point the diversion 
 controller will back off and pickup the difference.  That is why I suggested 
 the the relay controlled load be 50 to 75% of the pwm diversion load, so that 
 whenever it turns on the pwm controller will be working, too.
 David
  
 David Katz
 CTO  Founder
 AEE Solar Inc
 P: 707 825-1200
 F: 707 825-1202
 dk...@aeesolar.com
 www.aeesolar.com
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry 
 Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems
 Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:49 AM
 To: RE-wrenches
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Diversion load for AC coupled system
  
 David,
 Ah..I think I see what you are saying. But, don't you mean .2 volts lower 
 than the diversion load? That way there will only be limited current left for 
 the diversion controller to handle. If it is the other way, what stops full 
 current from flowing through the diversion controller if the .2 volts is not 
 reached? Or is .2 volts two close to worry about that?
 
 Larry Crutcher
 Starlight Solar Power Systems
  
  

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