Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter temperature (was Electrolytic Caps vs. Thin Film Caps)

[Steve Jefferson]

Morning Wrenches,

I will try to find the ticket. Maybe The installer built a small shelter to 
fully insulate the inverter, let me look into it.
It will be a couple of days though, as we are moving to a new office building.

SMA had special circumstances to bring the cold weather units to Canada. The 
FIT program there was starting and they needed the temp rating for our 
inverters.
Also, the UL/CSA certifications were much simpler and quicker to do for having 
them just be in Canada for the moment.
We will be bringing these units to the states, I believe it will be when we 
have the next round of FW listed. Not sure of an exact date though.

One thing to note for you Windy Boy users, these units have the polynomial 
curve programming in them, way more advanced than the current 3 point power 
curve.

Thanks

SMA America, LLC
Steve Jefferson
Sr. Technical Service Specialist, Sunny Family
6020 West Oaks Blvd, Suite 300
Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714
U.S.A.
Tel:  +1 916 625 0870
Fax: +1 916 624-2445
Service Line +1 877 697 6283 (Toll Free)
Email: steve.jeffer...@sma-america.com
www.SMA-America.com

This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC 
confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended 
recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any 
attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the 
intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently 
delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. 
Thank you.

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 7:48 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter temperature (was Electrolytic Caps vs. Thin 
Film Caps)

Steve,
My understanding is that wind chill by definition only affects living things. 
From Wikipedia: "The rate of heat loss by a surface through convection depends 
on the wind speed above that surface: the faster the wind speed, the more 
readily the surface cools. For inanimate objects, the effect of wind chill is 
to reduce any warmer objects to the ambient temperature more quickly. It 
cannot, however, reduce the temperature of these objects below the ambient 
temperature, no matter how great the wind velocity."

So in a high wind an inverter will cool more quickly until it reaches ambient 
temperature, but it won't be any warmer inside a enclosure. If the inverter is 
producing enough internal heat through inefficiency, an enclosure could slow 
the rate of heat loss enough to warm surrounding internal components a bit 
more. But this wouldn't have any effect on the inverter in your New Jersey 
example, as the inverter can't produce heat until it's in operation.

Could there be another explanation?
Thanks,
Allan
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com



On 1/19/2012 4:01 PM, Steve Jefferson wrote:
Afternoon Wrenches,
All SMA models in the US are rated for -25C (-13F). Canadian models are rated 
for both -25C and -40C.

I highly recommend if installing in areas with any extreme temperatures, to 
build an enclosure around the units. Sometimes with the wind chill factor temps 
can be quite more than just the ambient temp. Installing in a conditioned 
building is always ideal though.

I talked with an installer in New Jersey who had a system that was not turning 
on until late morning. He went out with in early morning with and took the 
temperature from one of the caps and it was about -30 F. We figured out that 
this extreme cold was caused by the north to south wind hitting the inverter, 
mounted on the backside of the ground mount. He built a little wall to protect 
from the wind, and the problem was solved.

SMA America, LLC
Steve Jefferson
Sr. Technical Service Specialist, Sunny Family
6020 West Oaks Blvd, Suite 300
Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714
U.S.A.
Tel:  +1 916 625 0870
Fax: +1 916 624-2445
Service Line +1 877 697 6283 (Toll Free)
Email: steve.jeffer...@sma-america.com
www.SMA-America.com
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] best way to connect 12v fans directly to panels with a higher voltage?

[James Rudolph]

Dearest Wrenchies,

So here is the situation,  we have a customer with a passively heated kiln
for drying lumber. Basically it is a greenhouse. There is no supplemental
heat, or power at the site where it is. When it begins to be heated
moisture will be driven from the lumber, which needs to be exhausted by
fans. We need PV because there is no power there, and because we want to be
completely solar. Rather than set up a charger controller and batteries,
along with humidity controls for the fans, I thought it would be simplest
to get some panels and wire them directly to the fans. That way, when the
sun is shining and the kiln is being heated, the fans will be on to exhaust
the moisture, and when the sun is not they are off. With that said the
customer has alredy bought the 4,12v/18a  fans from grainger and has some
ASW 240w 37V panels. I was wondering( since my work is always grid-tie
applications) what would be the best code compliant way to hook up all this
together.
Many thanks in advance for the help.

Sunny Regards,


*James B Rudolph
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Certified Californian Journeyman

*
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] best way to connect 12v fans directly to panels with a higher voltage?

[Jay Peltz]

> Hi James


I suggest you use Snap Fans. These are DC fans. And super efficient. They come 
in a few sizes/CFM rates.



Check out Greenwired.net they carry them. 

Jay

Peltz Power


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] Maximum array-to-inverter Run?

[Tom DeBates]

hello Wrenches,
    Has anyone done a system with array-to-inverter (DC) run of 900 feet or 
more? If so, any special considerations..besides voltage drop?
thanks,
tom 

Tom DeBates

Habi-Tek

524 Summit St.

Geneva,IL. 60134

630-262-8193

fax 630-262-1343___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Maximum array-to-inverter Run?

[Gary Willett]

TOM:

I've not worked on a project with an array-to-inverter cable run of that 
length. I am assuming the wiring will be underground.


I would consider using DC surge arrestors on both ends of the PV Output 
Circuit(s).


Also, make sure you have a good grounding scheme for the array.

Regards,

Gary Willett, PE

g...@icarus-engineering.com


On 1/20/2012 14:27, Tom DeBates wrote:

hello Wrenches,
Has anyone done a system with array-to-inverter (DC) run of 900 
feet or more? If so, any special considerations..besides voltage drop?

thanks,
tom

Tom DeBates
Habi-Tek
524 Summit St.
Geneva,IL. 60134
630-262-8193
fax 630-262-1343



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options&  settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules&  etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] best way to connect 12v fans directly to panels with a higher voltage?

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi James,



I second Jay's SNAP-Fan recommendation. They are the highest quality DC fans 
that I've seen. Here's their website:



http://www.snap-fan.com/index.html



You might be able to use those Grainer fans on direct PV, but you will have to 
find out what the fan's motor specs are. Many "12VDC" motors can't handle 
voltages above about 15VDC, making them unsuitable for direct PV applications. 
If that is the case, you will have to add batteries (and a charge controller) 
to the system. You will also need to control the fans with a thermostat or 
timer; otherwise the fans will just run constantly until the battery is 
drained. This adds cost and complexity to what could otherwise be a very simple 
set-up.



The motors on the SNAP-Fans are rated up to 40VDC, so they can run PV-direct on 
12V nominal (36-cell) or 24V nominal (72-cell) modules. At 24VDC nominal 
(operating at about 35VDC) they will draw almost three times the amperage 
(meaning 5-6 times the wattage), and develop almost twice the RPM as they do on 
a 12V nominal module (operating at about 17.5VDC). They will also move 2-3 
times the CFM at 24V nominal as they do at 12V nominal.



You can also run the SNAP-Fans with 60-cell modules of course, and that will 
likely be the cheapest way to go. The fans will operate at around 30VDC on a 
typical 60-cell module. I'm not familiar with the ASW modules, but as long as 
they have 72 or fewer cells, you'll be fine with the SNAP-Fans



See the installation manual on the SNAP-Fan website for some great operating 
charts, and how to wire multiple fans in series-parallel arrangements with PV 
(you can wire two 12VDC fans in series and power them at 24V and the fans will 
run at their 12V speed). Unfortunately, the charts only show performance at 
12V, 18V, and 24V, and not at 30 or 35V, but I'll bet the manufacturer has 
those figures too.



Of course, the faster you run the fans, the shorter the brush life will be, so 
take that into consideration.



One more point about running motors PV-direct: the larger the PV array is, the 
more hours per day the motor will run at full speed. A motor that draws 100W, 
powered by a 100W module, will only run at full speed at noon each day. 
However, a 200W module will develop 100W in half the amount of sunlight, so the 
fan will run at full speed for many more hours per day, and even on cloudy 
days. A 100W motor will draw only 100W even with a 1000W PV array, but will run 
at full speed in 10% sunlight (this is a little oversimplified, as a 100W motor 
would barely load down a 1kW PV array, so the motor will operate at a higher 
voltage, drawing more power).



As far as "Code compliant" hookup, that should be easy...or hard. I doubt that 
any of the DC fans are Listed, so that's a problem right there. Otherwise just 
use good wiring methods and you'll be fine. If you size the wire to 156% of the 
max PV amps, you don't even need overcurrent protection, although you should 
have a PV disconnect. I'd use a MidNite Big Baby box and 150VDC breakers.



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar



__


> Hi James





I suggest you use Snap Fans. These are DC fans. And super efficient. They come 
in a few sizes/CFM rates.







Check out Greenwired.net they carry them.



Jay



Peltz Power

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of James Rudolph
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 8:03 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] best way to connect 12v fans directly to panels with a 
higher voltage?

Dearest Wrenchies,

So here is the situation,  we have a customer with a passively heated kiln for 
drying lumber. Basically it is a greenhouse. There is no supplemental heat, or 
power at the site where it is. When it begins to be heated moisture will be 
driven from the lumber, which needs to be exhausted by fans. We need PV because 
there is no power there, and because we want to be completely solar. Rather 
than set up a charger controller and batteries, along with humidity controls 
for the fans, I thought it would be simplest to get some panels and wire them 
directly to the fans. That way, when the sun is shining and the kiln is being 
heated, the fans will be on to exhaust the moisture, and when the sun is not 
they are off. With that said the customer has alredy bought the 4,12v/18a  fans 
from grainger and has some ASW 240w 37V panels. I was wondering( since my work 
is always grid-tie applications) what would be the best code compliant way to 
hook up all this together.
Many thanks in advance for the help.

Sunny Regards,


James B Rudolph
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Certified Californian Journeyman

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.

Re: [RE-wrenches] best way to connect 12v fans directly to panels with a higher voltage?

[holtek]

If budget allows, you might check out www.atticbreeze.net

Check out the new controller - let's you set temp and humidity parameters for 
operation.

Holt E. Kelly
Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
500 Jewell Dr.
Waco TX. 76712
254-751-9111
www.holteksolar.com

  - Original Message - 
  From: Brian Teitelbaum 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 4:01 PM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] best way to connect 12v fans directly to panels 
with a higher voltage?


  Hi James,

   

  I second Jay's SNAP-Fan recommendation. They are the highest quality DC fans 
that I've seen. Here's their website:

   

  http://www.snap-fan.com/index.html

   

  You might be able to use those Grainer fans on direct PV, but you will have 
to find out what the fan's motor specs are. Many "12VDC" motors can't handle 
voltages above about 15VDC, making them unsuitable for direct PV applications. 
If that is the case, you will have to add batteries (and a charge controller) 
to the system. You will also need to control the fans with a thermostat or 
timer; otherwise the fans will just run constantly until the battery is 
drained. This adds cost and complexity to what could otherwise be a very simple 
set-up.

   

  The motors on the SNAP-Fans are rated up to 40VDC, so they can run PV-direct 
on 12V nominal (36-cell) or 24V nominal (72-cell) modules. At 24VDC nominal 
(operating at about 35VDC) they will draw almost three times the amperage 
(meaning 5-6 times the wattage), and develop almost twice the RPM as they do on 
a 12V nominal module (operating at about 17.5VDC). They will also move 2-3 
times the CFM at 24V nominal as they do at 12V nominal.

   

  You can also run the SNAP-Fans with 60-cell modules of course, and that will 
likely be the cheapest way to go. The fans will operate at around 30VDC on a 
typical 60-cell module. I'm not familiar with the ASW modules, but as long as 
they have 72 or fewer cells, you'll be fine with the SNAP-Fans

   

  See the installation manual on the SNAP-Fan website for some great operating 
charts, and how to wire multiple fans in series-parallel arrangements with PV 
(you can wire two 12VDC fans in series and power them at 24V and the fans will 
run at their 12V speed). Unfortunately, the charts only show performance at 
12V, 18V, and 24V, and not at 30 or 35V, but I'll bet the manufacturer has 
those figures too. 

   

  Of course, the faster you run the fans, the shorter the brush life will be, 
so take that into consideration.

   

  One more point about running motors PV-direct: the larger the PV array is, 
the more hours per day the motor will run at full speed. A motor that draws 
100W, powered by a 100W module, will only run at full speed at noon each day. 
However, a 200W module will develop 100W in half the amount of sunlight, so the 
fan will run at full speed for many more hours per day, and even on cloudy 
days. A 100W motor will draw only 100W even with a 1000W PV array, but will run 
at full speed in 10% sunlight (this is a little oversimplified, as a 100W motor 
would barely load down a 1kW PV array, so the motor will operate at a higher 
voltage, drawing more power).

   

  As far as "Code compliant" hookup, that should be easy.or hard. I doubt that 
any of the DC fans are Listed, so that's a problem right there. Otherwise just 
use good wiring methods and you'll be fine. If you size the wire to 156% of the 
max PV amps, you don't even need overcurrent protection, although you should 
have a PV disconnect. I'd use a MidNite Big Baby box and 150VDC breakers.

   

  Brian Teitelbaum

  AEE Solar

   

  
__
 

   

  > Hi James

   

   

  I suggest you use Snap Fans. These are DC fans. And super efficient. They 
come in a few sizes/CFM rates.

   

   

   

  Check out Greenwired.net they carry them. 

   

  Jay

   

  Peltz Power

   

  From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of James Rudolph
  Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 8:03 AM
  To: RE-wrenches
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] best way to connect 12v fans directly to panels with a 
higher voltage?

   

  Dearest Wrenchies,

  So here is the situation,  we have a customer with a passively heated kiln 
for drying lumber. Basically it is a greenhouse. There is no supplemental heat, 
or power at the site where it is. When it begins to be heated moisture will be 
driven from the lumber, which needs to be exhausted by fans. We need PV because 
there is no power there, and because we want to be completely solar. Rather 
than set up a charger controller and batteries, along with humidity controls 
for the fans, I thought it would be simplest to get some panels and wire them 
directly to the fans. That way, when the sun is shining and the kiln is being 
heated, the fans will be on to exhaust the moisture, and when the sun i