Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB
Well I have some but little experiance, I tried flooded batteries, cycleing batteries in float, I have had to many fail in two to 4 years, I have two CD sealed AGM battery sets in float, these are now 9 years old, and they are due for a test, but it apperas they are still going fine. One set has had about 2 grid outages in 9 years, the other maybe 9 grid outages. From my experiance the sealed AGM should be the battery of choice for long float periods. Darryl. From: toddc...@finestplanet.com toddc...@finestplanet.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:22 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB my inquiry is about the health of floating a lead antimony battery bank, in a grid-tie with battery back-up system, where the batteries float 99% of the time... considering (not specifically about any particular brand/manufacturer) i have also heard talk about the necessity to have to work harden a set of deep cycle batteries to get optimal use and capacity. in a battery backup system, the batteries wear our from old age, rather than cycling lifespan. it is common for batteries in these systems to go years with no cycling. if cycling is healthy for a battery. i'd like to know that. i have heard people speculate on it before, but never got a definitive answer from a manufacturer. i respect jamie and his expertise, so that is why i'd like to hear what he has to say about these batteries theories floating out there in wrench land. todd On Wednesday, February 15, 2012 12:52pm, William Miller will...@millersolar.com said: Colleagues: I am no sure if it would be appropriate for a manufacturer to comment in this forum on the relative merits of two competing battery products. Respectfully, William Miller At 12:27 PM 2/15/2012, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: i would LOVE it if jamie surrette would chime in on this comment. todd Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB
Wrenches, Drake, Trojan Premium lineL16RE-A, L16RE-B and L16RE-2V are optimized for renewable energy applications. They offer 1,600 cycles @ 50% DOD @ 77F. For details info, see here: http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/Premium_Trojan_ProductLineSheet.pdf Trojan Signature line L16P and L16H, with historically-proven engineering with T-2 Technology, are recommended for renewable applications, with 1,200 cycles @ 50% DOD @ 77F. For details info, see here: http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/datasheets/L16P_TrojanRE_Data_Sheets.pdf http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/datasheets/L16H_TrojanRE_Data_Sheets.pdf All our Trojan batteries are manufactured in the USA with same standards as always. The Premium Line has thicker plates and a 30% thicker separator (higher quality) than the L16P and L16H, which gives it a longer cycle life, but less Ah capacity. Many renewable energy customers would choose a battery with a longer life and less capacity, over a battery with higher capacity and a shorter life so that the battery bank does not have to be replaced as often. John John F. DeBoever Global Technical Director - Renewable Energy Trojan Battery Company 12380 Clark Street Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670 Tel: +1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139 Cell: +1-845-514-7600 - NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5) Skype: john.f.deboever Fax: +1-562-236-3239 jdeboe...@trojanbattery.commailto:jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com www.trojanbattery.comhttp://www.trojanbattery.com/ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 9:44 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB Hello Wrenches, For small off grid systems, where money is an object, I use Trojan L-16s of the standard capacity. On this list, these have been recommended by many as more durable than the HC. I recently had a customer complain when his worn out HC batteries (five years) were replaced by the standard capacity L-16 batteries. He wasn't satisfied with the capacity. I'm wondering if Trojan has also declined in its quality, or if he is really noticing a very significant difference between the HC and the E battery. (Or could he have new drains on his system he hasn't accounted for?) Do you think the new Trojan L-16 batteries are as good as the old ones? Is it really best to avoid the HC batteries. How much noticeable difference is there between the initial performance of the two? Thanks, Drake At 04:41 AM 2/15/2012, you wrote: I have had horrible experience with Interstate L-16's both the standard and the HC versions. When you have several installs that get 10+ years from the standard Trojan L-16's and you install (or they replace them with) Interstate's and some Deka's and they fail in 3 or so years, it says something. I see no reason that the customers would suddenly change their maintenance habits after years of doing it right! This also happened with a replacement set that I had. I have to blame the batteries, Bob Ellison -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [ mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 12:02 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB No, both golf cart batteries and industrial cells get more cycle life per $. Ray On 2/14/2012 1:18 PM, William Miller wrote: Colleagues: Do any of you have experience with Interstate L-16 batteries? Are they a good value? Thanks in advance, William Miller Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV This e-mail message and any attachments that accompany it may contain information that is confidential, privileged, or protected from disclosure. It is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it was intended to be addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, or you are not the intended recipient, any reading, disclosure, copying or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately advise the sender at their phone number listed above, or by electronic mail, and also permanently delete the original and all copies of this e-mail and any attachments from all locations. Thank you. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB
I agree. With some exception, we use AGMs for GTBB and FLA for Off-Grid. That makes the most sense to me. But you would think after 20 years, inverter manufacturers would make some software similar to generator cycling to handle this cycling issue. We program inverter EQ settings to the Absorb Voltage setting and teach the customer to press the EQ button or menu once a month. We also instruct them to drop the grid once a month to make everything works as planned. No point in having battery backup system if it does not backup under a real outage. Certainly, there is room for improvement on battery care from the inverter guys on GTBB systems. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown BSEET, NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ® President CEO Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. Office: 512-919-4493 Cell:512-460-9825 Sent from an iPhone. On Feb 16, 2012, at 7:35 AM, Darryl Thayer daryl_so...@yahoo.com wrote: Well I have some but little experiance, I tried flooded batteries, cycleing batteries in float, I have had to many fail in two to 4 years, I have two CD sealed AGM battery sets in float, these are now 9 years old, and they are due for a test, but it apperas they are still going fine. One set has had about 2 grid outages in 9 years, the other maybe 9 grid outages. From my experiance the sealed AGM should be the battery of choice for long float periods. Darryl. From: toddc...@finestplanet.com toddc...@finestplanet.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:22 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB my inquiry is about the health of floating a lead antimony battery bank, in a grid-tie with battery back-up system, where the batteries float 99% of the time... considering (not specifically about any particular brand/manufacturer) i have also heard talk about the necessity to have to work harden a set of deep cycle batteries to get optimal use and capacity. in a battery backup system, the batteries wear our from old age, rather than cycling lifespan. it is common for batteries in these systems to go years with no cycling. if cycling is healthy for a battery. i'd like to know that. i have heard people speculate on it before, but never got a definitive answer from a manufacturer. i respect jamie and his expertise, so that is why i'd like to hear what he has to say about these batteries theories floating out there in wrench land. todd On Wednesday, February 15, 2012 12:52pm, William Miller will...@millersolar.com said: Colleagues: I am no sure if it would be appropriate for a manufacturer to comment in this forum on the relative merits of two competing battery products. Respectfully, William Miller At 12:27 PM 2/15/2012, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: i would LOVE it if jamie surrette would chime in on this comment. todd Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB
Wrenches, Todd, Trojan Battery manufactures only true deep-cycling lead-acid batteries, from our 4 factories, based in the USA. Periodic cycling is not a requirement or benefit in achieving longer flooded lead acid deep-cycle battery life. There are some valid reasons to prefer flooded lead-acid deep-cycle lead-acid batteries for some residential semi-cycling / semi-floating applications. Typical floating-only applications do not have to feature a true deep cycle, although our Trojan products will work fine, without requiring periodic cycling. There are some batteries being marketed and labeled Deep Cycle that are not, and these will be affected by any amount of cycling, which is giving the Lead Acid industry a not so good name. John From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of toddc...@finestplanet.com Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 11:23 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB my inquiry is about the health of floating a lead antimony battery bank, in a grid-tie with battery back-up system, where the batteries float 99% of the time... considering (not specifically about any particular brand/manufacturer) i have also heard talk about the necessity to have to work harden a set of deep cycle batteries to get optimal use and capacity. in a battery backup system, the batteries wear our from old age, rather than cycling lifespan. it is common for batteries in these systems to go years with no cycling. if cycling is healthy for a battery. i'd like to know that. i have heard people speculate on it before, but never got a definitive answer from a manufacturer. i respect jamie and his expertise, so that is why i'd like to hear what he has to say about these batteries theories floating out there in wrench land. todd On Wednesday, February 15, 2012 12:52pm, William Miller will...@millersolar.commailto:will...@millersolar.com said: Colleagues: I am no sure if it would be appropriate for a manufacturer to comment in this forum on the relative merits of two competing battery products. Respectfully, William Miller At 12:27 PM 2/15/2012, toddc...@finestplanet.commailto:toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: i would LOVE it if jamie surrette would chime in on this comment. todd Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. This e-mail message and any attachments that accompany it may contain information that is confidential, privileged, or protected from disclosure. It is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it was intended to be addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, or you are not the intended recipient, any reading, disclosure, copying or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately advise the sender at their phone number listed above, or by electronic mail, and also permanently delete the original and all copies of this e-mail and any attachments from all locations. Thank you. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB
John, Are you including your new RE battery as being acceptable for float/standby service without cycling? Since you do not recommend cycling your battery, do you also recommend no equalization charge when in float/standby use? Frankly I question the logic of leaving any deep cycle flooded battery at a constant float voltage for months or years at a time. Do you have test data that will help me overcome my skepticism? Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Feb 16, 2012, at 9:09 AM, John DeBoever wrote: Wrenches, Todd, Trojan Battery manufactures only true deep-cycling lead-acid batteries, from our 4 factories, based in the USA. Periodic cycling is not a requirement or benefit in achieving longer flooded lead acid deep-cycle battery life. There are some valid reasons to prefer flooded lead-acid deep-cycle lead-acid batteries for some residential semi-cycling / semi-floating applications. Typical floating-only applications do not have to feature a true deep cycle, although our Trojan products will work fine, without requiring periodic cycling. There are some batteries being marketed and labeled Deep Cycle that are not, and these will be affected by any amount of cycling, which is giving the Lead Acid industry a not so good name. John ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB
Larry, I understand your point. What I clarified is that periodic cycling is not a requirement or benefit in achieving longer flooded lead acid deep-cycle battery life. Equalization is still required depending application specific, yet at a much lower periodic rate than if the application was true cyclic. I also agree that there are lead acid batteries out there designed just for floating applications. Their design focus on thinner plates for higher current and less cycling. This technology does focus on low self-discharge, high corrosion resistance, not on the various technologies specifics related to deep cycling. Hence they like floating applications that stays in float mode 99% of the time and need to crank power very occasionally. Cycling such batteries will be reducing dramatically their life. In a nut shell: there are benefits to tap in both technologies. Certainly there are UPS applications where floating mode is not looking for deep-cycling. Certainly there are cyclic applications where deep-cycling capability are mandatory. And then you have all in between, which makes all of us excited with different opinions. Ask 10 battery experts and the answers will be it depends. I would say, understanding the loads and the application is a great step towards long life. Next steps are picking the right battery for the application, sizing, installation and maintenance. John John F. DeBoever Global Technical Director - Renewable Energy Trojan Battery Company 12380 Clark Street Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670 Tel: +1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139 Cell: +1-845-514-7600 - NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5) Skype: john.f.deboever Fax: +1-562-236-3239 jdeboe...@trojanbattery.commailto:jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com www.trojanbattery.comhttp://www.trojanbattery.com/ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:30 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB John, Are you including your new RE battery as being acceptable for float/standby service without cycling? Since you do not recommend cycling your battery, do you also recommend no equalization charge when in float/standby use? Frankly I question the logic of leaving any deep cycle flooded battery at a constant float voltage for months or years at a time. Do you have test data that will help me overcome my skepticism? Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Feb 16, 2012, at 9:09 AM, John DeBoever wrote: Wrenches, Todd, Trojan Battery manufactures only true deep-cycling lead-acid batteries, from our 4 factories, based in the USA. Periodic cycling is not a requirement or benefit in achieving longer flooded lead acid deep-cycle battery life. There are some valid reasons to prefer flooded lead-acid deep-cycle lead-acid batteries for some residential semi-cycling / semi-floating applications. Typical floating-only applications do not have to feature a true deep cycle, although our Trojan products will work fine, without requiring periodic cycling. There are some batteries being marketed and labeled Deep Cycle that are not, and these will be affected by any amount of cycling, which is giving the Lead Acid industry a not so good name. John This e-mail message and any attachments that accompany it may contain information that is confidential, privileged, or protected from disclosure. It is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it was intended to be addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, or you are not the intended recipient, any reading, disclosure, copying or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately advise the sender at their phone number listed above, or by electronic mail, and also permanently delete the original and all copies of this e-mail and any attachments from all locations. Thank you. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Quantity of L-16 in a string
Question to the battery wizzs' here and this may have some impact on the current thread.- I was told long ago by a Trojan battery rep. in 1990? that we should not extend beyond [12] L-16s in a bank due to too many connections and to many cells to achieve a really go balance on the cell to cell charge. I have seen this to be a reality over the years though I have no concrete evidence other than observation. The more L-16s in a bank the more imbalance or probability of imbalance due to the greater of cells and interconnects, points of connection, number of strings. At [12] L-16s I have seen the longest life at 8-9 years and any # of batteries beyond it drops off to the 5-7 year range. This is all, off grid observations as I have not seen any L-16 wet lead acid in grid tie applications. Manufacturers could you chime in and wrenches what is your experience? Thanks Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc E - d...@solarwork.com V - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 web - www.solarwork.com Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of john Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 9:18 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB William, Back to the original question you posed. I have had good luck with Interstate L-16 batteries (so far). My first ones were installed in 2005 so I am just at the 7 year mark. I just looked some today and they are now failing at 7 years... one string of 4 real strong and the other 3 strings showing a weak battery in each. This system has been heavily abused with deep cycling due to generator problems and undersized PV array (and large loads). This was the system installed in a shed to power construction of a modest house that turned into a 3 story 5000 sf house and 3000 sf barn with 1200 watts of PV. I added another 1600 watts and now will be adding more along with new batteries. I have had lots of problems with the Trojan L16 HC's. Virtually all that I sold (may 5 or 6 systems) had premature failures. (1 to 3 years). I have seen comparable results with the Interstate L16 and the standard Trojan L16, but the interstates were considerably less expensive. I also have an Interstate supplier one block from my shop so convenience is part of the plus. I have had a few with leaking cell tops but was able to get instant replacements at no charge. On the question of grid tie, I had a set of 24 Trojan L16's last 12 years with one cycle per month performed by the owner. Off grid, however, around 7 years seems to be the norm. John -Original Message- From: William Miller will...@millersolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Tue, Feb 14, 2012 3:45 pm Subject: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB Colleagues: Do any of you have experience with Interstate L-16 batteries? Are they a good value? Thanks in advance, William Miller Miller Solar Voice :805-438-5600 email: will...@millersolar.com http://millersolar.com http://millersolar.com/ License No. C-10-773985 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Quantity of L-16 in a string
Wrenches, Dana, Battery banks can be configured with parallel strings, each string consisting of the number of units to meet the 12V, 24V or 48V battery bank voltage required by the design. The recommended maximum number of strings in parallel is 4. The lesser number of string in parallel will reduce the chance of dealing with cells unbalances, which inevitably occur over time, for the reasons you mentioned. I tend to limit the number of strings in parallel to 1 to 3 max whenever possible and especially in large battery banks. When push comes to shore, for very large Ah capacity applications it is recommended to have separate battery banks, each with their own independent charger, then parallel the battery banks and use blocking diodes. John John F. DeBoever Global Technical Director - Renewable Energy Trojan Battery Company 12380 Clark Street Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670 Tel: +1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139 Cell: +1-845-514-7600 - NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5) Skype: john.f.deboever Fax: +1-562-236-3239 jdeboe...@trojanbattery.commailto:jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com www.trojanbattery.comhttp://www.trojanbattery.com/ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:30 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Quantity of L-16 in a string Question to the battery wizzs' here and this may have some impact on the current thread.- I was told long ago by a Trojan battery rep. in 1990? that we should not extend beyond [12] L-16s in a bank due to too many connections and to many cells to achieve a really go balance on the cell to cell charge. I have seen this to be a reality over the years though I have no concrete evidence other than observation. The more L-16s in a bank the more imbalance or probability of imbalance due to the greater of cells and interconnects, points of connection, number of strings. At [12] L-16s I have seen the longest life at 8-9 years and any # of batteries beyond it drops off to the 5-7 year range. This is all, off grid observations as I have not seen any L-16 wet lead acid in grid tie applications. Manufacturers could you chime in and wrenches what is your experience? Thanks Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc E - d...@solarwork.commailto:d...@solarwork.com V - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 web - www.solarwork.comhttp://www.solarwork.com Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of john Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 9:18 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB William, Back to the original question you posed. I have had good luck with Interstate L-16 batteries (so far). My first ones were installed in 2005 so I am just at the 7 year mark. I just looked some today and they are now failing at 7 years... one string of 4 real strong and the other 3 strings showing a weak battery in each. This system has been heavily abused with deep cycling due to generator problems and undersized PV array (and large loads). This was the system installed in a shed to power construction of a modest house that turned into a 3 story 5000 sf house and 3000 sf barn with 1200 watts of PV. I added another 1600 watts and now will be adding more along with new batteries. I have had lots of problems with the Trojan L16 HC's. Virtually all that I sold (may 5 or 6 systems) had premature failures. (1 to 3 years). I have seen comparable results with the Interstate L16 and the standard Trojan L16, but the interstates were considerably less expensive. I also have an Interstate supplier one block from my shop so convenience is part of the plus. I have had a few with leaking cell tops but was able to get instant replacements at no charge. On the question of grid tie, I had a set of 24 Trojan L16's last 12 years with one cycle per month performed by the owner. Off grid, however, around 7 years seems to be the norm. John -Original Message- From: William Miller will...@millersolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Tue, Feb 14, 2012 3:45 pm Subject: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB Colleagues: Do any of you have experience with Interstate L-16 batteries? Are they a good value? Thanks in advance, William Miller Miller Solar Voice :805-438-5600 email: will...@millersolar.commailto:will...@millersolar.com http://millersolar.comhttp://millersolar.com/ License No. C-10-773985 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive:
Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB
this confirms what i have also been told by jamie surrette, namely that cycling is NOT necessary for flooded lead- antinimony batteries. while slightly more expensive, flooded lead-calcium is THE battery designed for this kind of use... plus they last longer, and use next to no water. monthly equalizing is a good idea to prevent stratification of the electrolyte. todd On Thursday, February 16, 2012 8:29am, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com said: John, Are you including your new RE battery as being acceptable for float/standby service without cycling? Since you do not recommend cycling your battery, do you also recommend no equalization charge when in float/standby use? Frankly I question the logic of leaving any deep cycle flooded battery at a constant float voltage for months or years at a time. Do you have test data that will help me overcome my skepticism? Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Feb 16, 2012, at 9:09 AM, John DeBoever wrote: Wrenches, Todd, Trojan Battery manufactures only true deep-cycling lead-acid batteries, from our 4 factories, based in the USA. Periodic cycling is not a requirement or benefit in achieving longer flooded lead acid deep-cycle battery life. There are some valid reasons to prefer flooded lead-acid deep-cycle lead-acid batteries for some residential semi-cycling / semi-floating applications. Typical floating-only applications do not have to feature a true deep cycle, although our Trojan products will work fine, without requiring periodic cycling. There are some batteries being marketed and labeled Deep Cycle that are not, and these will be affected by any amount of cycling, which is giving the Lead Acid industry a not so good name. John Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Absolyte recovery
Wrenches, We have inherited a Telecomm system in which the batteries have had a very hard life. -- Mac Lewis * Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates * ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB
I've heard that Lead-calcium batteries do not need Equalization, I think because the electrolyte does not contain sulfates so the lead plates cannot get sulfated. Although maybe electrolyte stratification is still an issue. Can anyone confirm that this info is correct ? Carl, On 2/16/2012 1:32 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: this confirms what i have also been told by jamie surrette, namely that cycling is NOT necessary for flooded lead- antinimony batteries. while slightly more expensive, flooded lead-calcium is THE battery designed for this kind of use... plus they last longer, and use next to no water. monthly equalizing is a good idea to prevent stratification of the electrolyte. todd On Thursday, February 16, 2012 8:29am, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com said: John, Are you including your new RE battery as being acceptable for float/standby service without cycling? Since you do not recommend cycling your battery, do you also recommend no equalization charge when in float/standby use? Frankly I question the logic of leaving any deep cycle flooded battery at a constant float voltage for months or years at a time. Do you have test data that will help me overcome my skepticism? Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Feb 16, 2012, at 9:09 AM, John DeBoever wrote: Wrenches, Todd, Trojan Battery manufactures only true deep-cycling lead-acid batteries, from our 4 factories, based in the USA. Periodic cycling isnota requirement or benefit in achieving longer flooded lead acid deep-cycle battery life. There are some valid reasons to prefer flooded lead-acid deep-cycle lead-acid batteries for some residential semi-cycling / semi-floating applications. Typical floating-only applications do not have to feature a true deep cycle, although our Trojan products will work fine, without requiring periodic cycling. There are some batteriesbeing marketed and labeled Deep Cycle that are not, and these will be affected by any amount of cycling, which is giving the Lead Acid industry a not so good name. John * * Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Absolyte recovery
Hi Mac, We had a cell failure on an Absolyte system we inherited and contacted; Jeff Lambert Product Support and Warranty East Penn Mfg. Co., Inc. - Unigy Battery Division ( Office: (610) 682 6361 ext. 2848 | ÈCell: (484) 955 2899 | ÇPage: 888-797-8039 (If no answer on Cell) | * Email: mailto:jlamb...@eastpennunigy.com jlamb...@eastpennunigy.com Jeff was very helpful. I do wonder if your charge controllers are getting the array power out to the battery bank, was there any damage to them too? Is the Apollo 4048 inverter/charger doing its job, is it undersized for the size of battery bank? Sincerely, Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Phone: 530-582-4503 Fax: 530-582-4603 http://www.solarwindworks.com/ www.solarwindworks.com mailto:ch...@solarwindworks.com ch...@solarwindworks.com Proven Energy Solutions From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of mac Lewis Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 12:43 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Absolyte recovery Wrenches, We have inherited a Telecomm system in which the batteries have had a very hard life. A lighting strike knocked the system off line for about 5 months, and ground fault dragged the batteries way down about a month ago. Now, we are seeing about 10h of generator run time/day indicating to me that the batteries are not holding voltage at all. I am uncertain of the exact specs at this moment, but it is a 24 Absolyte IIP batteries (5 years old), with a 5 kW array, two Apollo T80HV charge controllers and an Apollo 4048 inverter charger. I don't have experience with these batteries. Is there any way to try to recover these batteries? Any good contacts with GNB would be useful. Thanks Wrenches, We have inherited a Telecomm system in which the batteries have had a very hard life. -- Mac Lewis Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates -- Mac Lewis Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB
Carl, I've got two sets of Surette lead-calcium in an off-grid test system. The electrolyte is H2S04 .. sulfuric acid. The internal construction of these batteries is more open than I've seen in other L16 style cells (more space between the plates), which may (or may not) lend itself to lessening of stratification issues. Dan --- On Thu, 2/16/12, Carl Hansen solar...@cybermesa.com wrote: From: Carl Hansen solar...@cybermesa.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Thursday, February 16, 2012, 3:12 PM I've heard that Lead-calcium batteries do not need Equalization, I think because the electrolyte does not contain sulfates so the lead plates cannot get sulfated. Although maybe electrolyte stratification is still an issue. Can anyone confirm that this info is correct ? Carl, ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB
Hi John; Over 1000 cycles at 80% DOD out of a golf cart battery or L16 is almost double the average competition. I may have to give the RE Trojans a try. The 2 V L16 would especially be useful at over 1000 AH per unit. That would be good for old 12 v systems where we wanted to add capacity without over paralleling or breaking the off grid spinster budget. Ray Walters On 2/16/2012 6:39 AM, John DeBoever wrote: Wrenches, Drake, Trojan Premium lineL16RE-A, L16RE-B and L16RE-2V are optimized for renewable energy applications. They offer 1,600 cycles @ 50% DOD @ 77F. For details info, see here: http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/Premium_Trojan_ProductLineSheet.pdf Trojan Signature line L16P and L16H, with historically-proven engineering with T-2 Technology, are recommended for renewable applications, with 1,200 cycles @ 50% DOD @ 77F. For details info, see here: http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/datasheets/L16P_TrojanRE_Data_Sheets.pdf http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/datasheets/L16H_TrojanRE_Data_Sheets.pdf All our Trojan batteries are manufactured in the USA with same standards as always. The Premium Line has thicker plates and a 30% thicker separator (higher quality) than the L16P and L16H, which gives it a longer cycle life, but less Ah capacity. Many renewable energy customers would choose a battery with a longer life and less capacity, over a battery with higher capacity and a shorter life so that the battery bank does not have to be replaced as often. John John F. DeBoever Global Technical Director -- Renewable Energy *Trojan Battery Company* 12380 Clark Street Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670 Tel: +1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139 *Cell: +1-845-514-7600 -- NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5)* Skype: john.f.deboever Fax: +1-562-236-3239 jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com mailto:jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com www.trojanbattery.com http://www.trojanbattery.com/ *From:*re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Drake *Sent:* Wednesday, February 15, 2012 9:44 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB Hello Wrenches, For small off grid systems, where money is an object, I use Trojan L-16s of the standard capacity. On this list, these have been recommended by many as more durable than the HC. I recently had a customer complain when his worn out HC batteries (five years) were replaced by the standard capacity L-16 batteries. He wasn't satisfied with the capacity. I'm wondering if Trojan has also declined in its quality, or if he is really noticing a very significant difference between the HC and the E battery. (Or could he have new drains on his system he hasn't accounted for?) Do you think the new Trojan L-16 batteries are as good as the old ones? Is it really best to avoid the HC batteries. How much noticeable difference is there between the initial performance of the two? Thanks, Drake At 04:41 AM 2/15/2012, you wrote: I have had horrible experience with Interstate L-16's both the standard and the HC versions. When you have several installs that get 10+ years from the standard Trojan L-16's and you install (or they replace them with) Interstate's and some Deka's and they fail in 3 or so years, it says something. I see no reason that the customers would suddenly change their maintenance habits after years of doing it right! This also happened with a replacement set that I had. I have to blame the batteries, Bob Ellison -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 12:02 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB No, both golf cart batteries and industrial cells get more cycle life per $. Ray On 2/14/2012 1:18 PM, William Miller wrote: Colleagues: Do any of you have experience with Interstate L-16 batteries? Are they a good value? Thanks in advance, William Miller Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV This e-mail message and any attachments that accompany it may contain information that is confidential, privileged, or protected from disclosure. It is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it was intended to be addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, or you are not the intended recipient, any reading, disclosure, copying or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately advise the sender at their phone number listed above, or by electronic mail, and also permanently delete the original and all copies of this e-mail and any attachments from all locations. Thank you. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address:
