Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe batteries

[toddcory]

supposed to be horribly inefficient (like less than 50%) but last forever.
 
todd
 
 
 
On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 3:02pm, "bob ellison"  said:




Watch the Chinese ones, lots of problems there.
 
Bob Ellison
 


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Mandelkorn
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 4:52 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe batteries
 
Jon, Iron Edison in Colorado is the only supplier I know of.  I am thinking 
about these as well. I know of a guy that has an Edison battery in his shop for 
many years with no complaints. 

 

Their contact info is: 

The Iron Edison Battery Company, LLC 

10171 W. 9th Dr. 

Lakewood, CO 80215 

720-432-6433

[http://ironedison.com/] http://ironedison.com/

 

Good luck,

 














Aaron Mandelkorn 

NABCEP Certified PV Installer 

Renewable Energy Outfitters 

Box 65 Salida, CO. 81201 

(970)596-3744 












[mailto:reoso...@gmail.com] reoso...@gmail.com 

[http://www.reosolar.com] www.reosolar.com 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


On Sep 25, 2012, at 11:19 AM, Jonathan Hill wrote:




Anyone know anything about Nickel-Iron Batteries? We sold some many years ago 
but our supplier stopped carrying them. I have a client with a fairly large 
bank of Hawker industrial batteries; 2100ah @ 48v. He is asking about replacing 
them with Ni-Fe as he has heard that they will last virtually forever, or at 
least longer than he might. Any thoughts on this? Also, any suggestions of good 
suppliers? Thanks.

 











Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder 












Sierra Solar Systems

563C Idaho Maryland Road

Grass Valley, CA 95945

Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!

tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754 

order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760

e-mail:  <[mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com] mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com>

world wide web:  <[http://www.sierrasolar.com/] http://www.sierrasolar.com>
 



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Independent vs common trip breakers

[William Miller]

August:

I suspect that the handle tie that allows only one pole to trip is not 
working as designed.  There are handle ties that are retrofitted that do 
not trip both poles reliably.


William Miller


At 04:26 PM 9/25/2012, you wrote:

William,

Good points. Keep in mind that both of these breakers have handle ties
(both are two pole), it's just that one can trip independently and the
other forces both to trip. What is the correct solution for 240 V solar
inverters? It seems like common trip is the best way to go but I've not
been able to find any direct reference to this in a brief internet search.

 I'm a CA certified general electrician but the test didn't go into this
kind of detail.

-August


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe batteries

[Jonathan Hill]

David-
I know that. I bought them from you then.
Jonny Hill

Sierra Solar Systems


On Sep 25, 2012, at 4:32 PM, David Katz  wrote:

> The biggest problems with nickel-iron batteries is their terrible 
> inefficiency, around 65% and the tremendous amount of distilled water 
> required.  The use a lit of water and if you run out, they will explode.  AEE 
> sold them in the late 90s.
> David Katz
> 
> Sent from my HTC smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!
> 
> 
> - Reply message -
> From: "Jonathan Hill" 
> To: "RE-wrenches RE-wrenches" 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe batteries
> Date: Tue, Sep 25, 2012 10:18 am
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone know anything about Nickel-Iron Batteries? We sold some many years ago 
> but our supplier stopped carrying them. I have a client with a fairly large 
> bank of Hawker industrial batteries; 2100ah @ 48v. He is asking about 
> replacing them with Ni-Fe as he has heard that they will last virtually 
> forever, or at least longer than he might. Any thoughts on this? Also, any 
> suggestions of good suppliers? Thanks.
> 
> Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder
> Sierra Solar Systems
> 563C Idaho Maryland Road
> Grass Valley, CA 95945
> Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!
> tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754 
> order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760
> e-mail:  
> world wide web:  
> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe batteries

[David Katz]

The biggest problems with nickel-iron batteries is their terrible inefficiency, 
around 65% and the tremendous amount of distilled water required.  The use a 
lit of water and if you run out, they will explode.  AEE sold them in the late 
90s.
David Katz

Sent from my HTC smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!


- Reply message -
From: "Jonathan Hill" 
To: "RE-wrenches RE-wrenches" 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe batteries
Date: Tue, Sep 25, 2012 10:18 am



Anyone know anything about Nickel-Iron Batteries? We sold some many years ago 
but our supplier stopped carrying them. I have a client with a fairly large 
bank of Hawker industrial batteries; 2100ah @ 48v. He is asking about replacing 
them with Ni-Fe as he has heard that they will last virtually forever, or at 
least longer than he might. Any thoughts on this? Also, any suggestions of good 
suppliers? Thanks.

Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder
Sierra Solar Systems
563C Idaho Maryland Road
Grass Valley, CA 95945
Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!
tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754
order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760
e-mail:  
world wide web:  


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Independent vs common trip breakers

[August Goers]

William,

Good points. Keep in mind that both of these breakers have handle ties
(both are two pole), it's just that one can trip independently and the
other forces both to trip. What is the correct solution for 240 V solar
inverters? It seems like common trip is the best way to go but I've not
been able to find any direct reference to this in a brief internet search.

 I'm a CA certified general electrician but the test didn't go into this
kind of detail.

-August

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 4:03 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Independent vs common trip breakers

August:

It's all about safety:  If one has a 230V circuit and you are incorrectly
using non-handle-tied breakers, when an overcurrent event occurs on only
one phase, only one breaker trips.  The circuit stops working but the
appliance is still energized with the other phase of AC.  A repair person
may inadvertently assume the circuit is off based on the non-operational
status of the appliance and, during repair, come in contact with
conductors or equipment energized by the breaker that is still on.

In a correct installation (handle-tied) an overcurrent on one phase
de-energizes both phases.

A similar scenario applies in situations with a "multi-wire branch
circuit," aka a shared neutral.  It is less likely that a dangerous
situation will occur because one circuit will still work.  Opening the
neutral can result in over-voltaging one circuit (been there, bought that
replacement cash register).  I am not a house electrician, but I think
dishwasher / garbage disposal multi-wire circuits require handle ties.
Anyone else want to clarify this point?

This is a subtle but important point.  This is an example of knowledge
that a non-licensed or under-experienced electrician may not posses, hence
the desirability of requiring meaningful licensure.

Sincerely,

William Miller



At 03:06 PM 9/25/2012, you wrote:
>Hi Wrenches,
>
>Do any of you know the reason why we might use an independent trip
>versus a common trip two pole breaker for a solar inverter? My
>understanding is that the independent trip will only trip the
>individual line effected by the overcurrent condition compared to the
>common trip which will trip both poles. Both are tied together by a
>handle tie and both lines must be flipped on at the same time. Cutler
>hammer is a good example of a company who makes both types.
>
>It seems like supply houses sell both types willy nilly.
>
>Best,
>
>August
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>18:34:00

Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Independent vs common trip breakers

[William Miller]

August:

It's all about safety:  If one has a 230V circuit and you are incorrectly 
using non-handle-tied breakers, when an overcurrent event occurs on only 
one phase, only one breaker trips.  The circuit stops working but the 
appliance is still energized with the other phase of AC.  A repair person 
may inadvertently assume the circuit is off based on the non-operational 
status of the appliance and, during repair, come in contact with conductors 
or equipment energized by the breaker that is still on.


In a correct installation (handle-tied) an overcurrent on one phase 
de-energizes both phases.


A similar scenario applies in situations with a "multi-wire branch 
circuit," aka a shared neutral.  It is less likely that a dangerous 
situation will occur because one circuit will still work.  Opening the 
neutral can result in over-voltaging one circuit (been there, bought that 
replacement cash register).  I am not a house electrician, but I think 
dishwasher / garbage disposal multi-wire circuits require handle 
ties.  Anyone else want to clarify this point?


This is a subtle but important point.  This is an example of knowledge that 
a non-licensed or under-experienced electrician may not posses, hence the 
desirability of requiring meaningful licensure.


Sincerely,

William Miller



At 03:06 PM 9/25/2012, you wrote:

Hi Wrenches,

Do any of you know the reason why we might use an independent trip versus 
a common trip two pole breaker for a solar inverter? My understanding is 
that the independent trip will only trip the individual line effected by 
the overcurrent condition compared to the common trip which will trip both 
poles. Both are tied together by a handle tie and both lines must be 
flipped on at the same time. Cutler hammer is a good example of a company 
who makes both types.


It seems like supply houses sell both types willy nilly.

Best,

August
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Internal Virus Database is out of date.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.455 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/5272 - Release Date: 09/16/12 
18:34:00


Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe batteries

[Dan Fink]

>
> We do discuss NiFe (Edison) battery banks with the students in all our
> off-grid classes. I would only recommend them (at this time) for
> experienced off-grid experts, DIY or professional. I would not touch a NiFe
> install with a 10-foot pole for any typical off-grid consulting customer of
> ours.
>
> Be sure to look into the disadvantages of NiFe cell, before plunking down
> a bunch of money:
> ~extremely low efficiency on both charge and discharge;
> ~very expensive;
> ~very high self-discharge rate;
> ~only source is China (we used to be able to get Hungarian ones, no
> longer), we hear of problems with the Chinese cells;
> ~non-typical charge cycle performance, and only the Midnite Solar Classic
> controller has a setting for NiFe that we know of. Get it wrong, and they
> will behave bizarrely and dangerously ;
> ~We do not know of any modern inverter/charger that can properly charge
> and maintain NiFe cells via a backup generator.
>
~ controller / charger settings for NiCad will be CLOSE to correct for
NiFe, but not exactly right

>
> What is the chance that *MY* next battery bank will be NiFe? (Currently I
> am using typical lead-antimony batteries, L-16s) Very high chance, if i can
> get a decent deal. But at this time, you had better be an experienced
> off-grid expert to want to fiddle with these things. "Turn-key system" is
> not in the lexicon right now for off-grid NiFe battery banks. Great old
> technology -- but there are a whole lot of darned good reasons it is not
> common now. **
>
> --
> Dan Fink,
> Executive Director;
> Otherpower
> Buckville Energy Consulting
> Buckville Publications LLC
> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
> 970.672.4342 (voicemail)
>
>


> 
>
> Anyone know anything about Nickel-Iron Batteries? We sold some many years
> ago but our supplier stopped carrying them. I have a client with a fairly
> large bank of Hawker industrial batteries; 2100ah @ 48v. He is asking about
> replacing them with Ni-Fe as he has heard that they will last virtually
> forever, or at least longer than he might. Any thoughts on this? Also, any
> suggestions of good suppliers? Thanks.
>
>
>
>
>
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[RE-wrenches] Independent vs common trip breakers

[August Goers]

Hi Wrenches,



Do any of you know the reason why we might use an independent trip versus a
common trip two pole breaker for a solar inverter? My understanding is that
the independent trip will only trip the individual line effected by the
overcurrent condition compared to the common trip which will trip both
poles. Both are tied together by a handle tie and both lines must be
flipped on at the same time. Cutler hammer is a good example of a company
who makes both types.



It seems like supply houses sell both types willy nilly.



Best,



August
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe batteries

[bob ellison]

Watch the Chinese ones, lots of problems there.

 

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Aaron
Mandelkorn
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 4:52 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe batteries

 

Jon, Iron Edison in Colorado is the only supplier I know of.  I am thinking
about these as well. I know of a guy that has an Edison battery in his shop
for many years with no complaints.   

 

Their contact info is: 

The Iron Edison Battery Company, LLC 

10171 W. 9th Dr. 

Lakewood, CO 80215  

720-432-6433

http://ironedison.com/

 

Good luck,

 

Aaron Mandelkorn

NABCEP Certified PV Installer

Renewable Energy Outfitters

Box 65 Salida, CO. 81201

(970)596-3744

reoso...@gmail.com

www.reosolar.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Sep 25, 2012, at 11:19 AM, Jonathan Hill wrote:





Anyone know anything about Nickel-Iron Batteries? We sold some many years
ago but our supplier stopped carrying them. I have a client with a fairly
large bank of Hawker industrial batteries; 2100ah @ 48v. He is asking about
replacing them with Ni-Fe as he has heard that they will last virtually
forever, or at least longer than he might. Any thoughts on this? Also, any
suggestions of good suppliers? Thanks.

 

Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder

Sierra Solar Systems

563C Idaho Maryland Road

Grass Valley, CA 95945

Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!

tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754 

order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760

e-mail:  

world wide web:   >

 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase data interference

[William Miller]

Larry:

Thanks very much.  I am gong to do what you recommend.  By the way, the 
interference is said to be at about 144kHz.  Do these cap values seem to be 
relevant at that frequency?


WM

At 01:31 PM 9/25/2012, you wrote:

Hello William,

Since you have identified the cause, look to filtering the RFI at the 
source, it will be easier than trying to keep it out of your Envoy. I 
would start with AC line capacitors. Solder a 0.1uF ceramic cap from 
leg~leg and leg~ground as close to the motor as you can, keeping leads 
short. Do the same at the AC input and output to the motor controller if 
it has one. Make sure the motor frame has a good ground. If possible, make 
sure that your PV system, monitor and the pond motor are at the same 
ground potential.


Note: If a line voltage surge occurs, these caps will likely burn or 
explode (small scale) so, with this in mind, be aware of placement.


I can tell you from many years experience as an amateur radio weak signal 
operator, detection and reducing RFI issues are a mix of science and art. 
You may want to contact your local Ham Radio club and see if they can 
recommend someone that is willing to help.  Good luck!


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Sep 24, 2012, at 5:47 PM, William Miller wrote:

Friends:

Just a heads up for those of you installing Enphase systems:

After installing over a dozen systems we came up with a job where we have 
been unable to resolve interference issues.  The problem is receiving data 
from the inverters into the Envoy.  We have tried relocating every 
component, using multiples of the ferrite beads, various models of X10 
filter modules, etc.


Enphase has been trying their best, remotely, to help resolve the problem 
but without success.  The interference is being caused by an expensive 
pond pump (or we would have a new one by now).  We are awaiting an AC 
filter module from Digi-key.  I will let you all know how it turns out.


In the meantime, I have added the following paragraph to my contracts:

Data systems: Some new inverter systems transmit data over your 
power lines.  On rare occasion interference from your appliances will 
occur that block this data transmission.  We can resolve these problems 
but there may be extra charge for our time and materials.


My profit from this job has evaporated.  I am writing this because I don't 
want to see any of you in this situation unknowingly.


More later,

William Miller

Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985
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Internal Virus Database is out of date.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.455 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/5272 - Release Date: 09/16/12 
18:34:00


Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase data interference

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hello William,

Since you have identified the cause, look to filtering the RFI at the source, 
it will be easier than trying to keep it out of your Envoy. I would start with 
AC line capacitors. Solder a 0.1uF ceramic cap from leg~leg and leg~ground as 
close to the motor as you can, keeping leads short. Do the same at the AC input 
and output to the motor controller if it has one. Make sure the motor frame has 
a good ground. If possible, make sure that your PV system, monitor and the pond 
motor are at the same ground potential.

Note: If a line voltage surge occurs, these caps will likely burn or explode 
(small scale) so, with this in mind, be aware of placement.

I can tell you from many years experience as an amateur radio weak signal 
operator, detection and reducing RFI issues are a mix of science and art. You 
may want to contact your local Ham Radio club and see if they can recommend 
someone that is willing to help.  Good luck!

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Sep 24, 2012, at 5:47 PM, William Miller wrote:

Friends:

Just a heads up for those of you installing Enphase systems:

After installing over a dozen systems we came up with a job where we have been 
unable to resolve interference issues.  The problem is receiving data from the 
inverters into the Envoy.  We have tried relocating every component, using 
multiples of the ferrite beads, various models of X10 filter modules, etc.

Enphase has been trying their best, remotely, to help resolve the problem but 
without success.  The interference is being caused by an expensive pond pump 
(or we would have a new one by now).  We are awaiting an AC filter module from 
Digi-key.  I will let you all know how it turns out.

In the meantime, I have added the following paragraph to my contracts:

Data systems: Some new inverter systems transmit data over your power 
lines.  On rare occasion interference from your appliances will occur that 
block this data transmission.  We can resolve these problems but there may be 
extra charge for our time and materials.

My profit from this job has evaporated.  I am writing this because I don't want 
to see any of you in this situation unknowingly.

More later,

William Miller
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe batteries

[Aaron Mandelkorn]

Jon, Iron Edison in Colorado is the only supplier I know of.  I am thinking 
about these as well. I know of a guy that has an Edison battery in his shop for 
many years with no complaints.   

Their contact info is: 
The Iron Edison Battery Company, LLC 
10171 W. 9th Dr. 
Lakewood, CO 80215  
720-432-6433
http://ironedison.com/

Good luck,

Aaron Mandelkorn
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Renewable Energy Outfitters
Box 65 Salida, CO. 81201
(970)596-3744
reoso...@gmail.com
www.reosolar.com















On Sep 25, 2012, at 11:19 AM, Jonathan Hill wrote:

> Anyone know anything about Nickel-Iron Batteries? We sold some many years ago 
> but our supplier stopped carrying them. I have a client with a fairly large 
> bank of Hawker industrial batteries; 2100ah @ 48v. He is asking about 
> replacing them with Ni-Fe as he has heard that they will last virtually 
> forever, or at least longer than he might. Any thoughts on this? Also, any 
> suggestions of good suppliers? Thanks.
> 
> Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder
> Sierra Solar Systems
> 563C Idaho Maryland Road
> Grass Valley, CA 95945
> Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!
> tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754 
> order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760
> e-mail:  
> world wide web:  
> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe batteries

[Jonathan Hill]

Anyone know anything about Nickel-Iron Batteries? We sold some many years ago 
but our supplier stopped carrying them. I have a client with a fairly large 
bank of Hawker industrial batteries; 2100ah @ 48v. He is asking about replacing 
them with Ni-Fe as he has heard that they will last virtually forever, or at 
least longer than he might. Any thoughts on this? Also, any suggestions of good 
suppliers? Thanks.

Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder
Sierra Solar Systems
563C Idaho Maryland Road
Grass Valley, CA 95945
Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!
tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754 
order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760
e-mail:  
world wide web:  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase M210

[Jason Szumlanski]

Uh oh I guess that means no more SunPower E18/230 with Enphase. That
sucks - it was a good premium product offering for us. Anyone know if the
SMA or other microinverters are compatible with SunPower?

*Jason Szumlanski*

*Fafco Solar*

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 6:51 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote:

>  Uh oh….I just learned that our Enphase friends are no longer making the
> M210s.
>
> ** **
>
> I need (50) of ‘em @ 240V.
>
> ** **
>
> Anyone have any leads on that many, please?  Please contact me off-list.**
> **
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks,
>
> marco
>
> ** **
>
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