Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters
I would advise against using CAT-5 cabling for any RS-485 data communications, it is not an appropriate tool for the job. This is a common poor practice in the solar industry. 4 conductor shielded, 24AWG jacketed cable is what SMA recommends, and is appropriate for this purpose. Glenn Burt (many years of data comms experience B4 solar) From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of mac Lewis Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 9:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters Hi Kirk, I would consider the Sunny Island option. Everything integrates nicely. You can use the smartformer to get 240Vac if you need it at the critical loads. This would give the Sunny Island Frequency control over the Sunny Boy (assuming you can run Cat 5 to the Sunny Boy). Good Luck. On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Kirk Herander k...@vtsolar.com wrote: I have AC-coupled an Outback quad-stack with multiple SunnyBoy 6000US inverters and its been running fine for 4 years. I used the off-grid version of Outbacks. Now I have an application where a customer wants to add battery backup to an existing SunnyBoy 5000US system. And expand his array by a couple KW. So Im thinking of using a GT Outback w/ batteries to handle the critical loads and feed the extra 2kw of PV (charging the batteries through an MX60) to the grid. And Id like to AC-couple the SunnyBoy so the original 5 kw array can also charge the batteries, BUT I remember, at least I think so, that the GT inverter cannot be AC-coupled, only the off-grid version. Is this correct? Thanks. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Certified installer Charter Member NYSERDA-eligible Installer VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters
I am leaning towards the SunnyIsland. I assume it backs off the SunnyBoy via RS485 communications and the factory 240 xformer is a plus. The Outback setup might be a little less expensive, but as you say a bit of a kludge. I guess I still need the charge controller for the new PV, as the SunnyIsland doesn't regulate that. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Certified installer Charter Member NYSERDA-eligible Installer VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Katz Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 2:11 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters Hi Kirk, All of the Outback inverters will work AC coupled (GT and FX) as will any bi-directional H-bridge type inverter. I have used old Trace SW's, SunnyIsland, Apollo TSW, Magnum AE and now I am using an Outback Radian to do exactly what you are talking about. I have 6 kW of grid tie inverter and an additional 4kw of modules running through a Xantrex 600 volt charge controller to the batteries that the Radian runs on. It all works flawless as long as you have a provision for protecting the batteries when the gid is down and the grid-tie PV system is making more power than the loads are using. If the customer has SMA inverters, I would recommend using a SunnyIsland because the battery control when the grid goes down is so elegant. Everything else is a bit of a kludge. David Katz CTO Founder AEE Solar Inc P: 707 825-1200 F: 707 825-1202 dk...@aeesolar.com www.aeesolar.com From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 2:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters I have AC-coupled an Outback quad-stack with multiple SunnyBoy 6000US inverters and it's been running fine for 4 years. I used the off-grid version of Outbacks. Now I have an application where a customer wants to add battery backup to an existing SunnyBoy 5000US system. And expand his array by a couple KW. So I'm thinking of using a GT Outback w/ batteries to handle the critical loads and feed the extra 2kw of PV (charging the batteries through an MX60) to the grid. And I'd like to AC-couple the SunnyBoy so the original 5 kw array can also charge the batteries, BUT I remember, at least I think so, that the GT inverter cannot be AC-coupled, only the off-grid version. Is this correct? Thanks. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Certified installer Charter Member NYSERDA-eligible Installer VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SunnyIsland - was AC coupling and Outback inverters
One Question: Output of the SunnyBoy is 240vac. So this is fed to the critical load panel, of which the SunnyIsland 120 vac output is fed to. So we need a 120/240 step up transformer between the SunnyIsland and the critical load panel to fully take advantage of the Sunnyboy array for battery charging, correct?. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Certified installer Charter Member NYSERDA-eligible Installer VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Katz Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 2:11 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters Hi Kirk, All of the Outback inverters will work AC coupled (GT and FX) as will any bi-directional H-bridge type inverter. I have used old Trace SW's, SunnyIsland, Apollo TSW, Magnum AE and now I am using an Outback Radian to do exactly what you are talking about. I have 6 kW of grid tie inverter and an additional 4kw of modules running through a Xantrex 600 volt charge controller to the batteries that the Radian runs on. It all works flawless as long as you have a provision for protecting the batteries when the gid is down and the grid-tie PV system is making more power than the loads are using. If the customer has SMA inverters, I would recommend using a SunnyIsland because the battery control when the grid goes down is so elegant. Everything else is a bit of a kludge. David Katz CTO Founder AEE Solar Inc P: 707 825-1200 F: 707 825-1202 dk...@aeesolar.com www.aeesolar.com From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 2:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters I have AC-coupled an Outback quad-stack with multiple SunnyBoy 6000US inverters and it's been running fine for 4 years. I used the off-grid version of Outbacks. Now I have an application where a customer wants to add battery backup to an existing SunnyBoy 5000US system. And expand his array by a couple KW. So I'm thinking of using a GT Outback w/ batteries to handle the critical loads and feed the extra 2kw of PV (charging the batteries through an MX60) to the grid. And I'd like to AC-couple the SunnyBoy so the original 5 kw array can also charge the batteries, BUT I remember, at least I think so, that the GT inverter cannot be AC-coupled, only the off-grid version. Is this correct? Thanks. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Certified installer Charter Member NYSERDA-eligible Installer VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SunnyIsland - was AC coupling and Outback inverters
Check out the new SMA Smartformer, though I'm not sure whether it's actually shipping yet. I'm thinking about this for my house eventually (SB5000US). http://www.sma-america.com/en_US/products/off-grid-and-back-up-solutions/smartformer-for-sunny-island.html Alternatively, the new SMA TL inverters (at least the 3, 4, and 5kW units according to the press release) have an Emergency Power Supply function that can provide backup power (12A?) during the day when the grid is down. This may meet your customer's requirements. No batteries required, though since the TLs require ungrounded arrays, you may need to rewire the existing array to be compliant with 690.35 (PV Wire or raceway). On 2012/10/5 8:41, Kirk Herander wrote: One Question: Output of the SunnyBoy is 240vac. So this is fed to the critical load panel, of which the SunnyIsland 120 vac output is fed to. So we need a 120/240 step up transformer between the SunnyIsland and the critical load panel to fully take advantage of the Sunnyboy array for battery charging, correct?. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEP^TM Certified installer Charter Member NYSERDA-eligible Installer VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 *From:*re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *David Katz *Sent:* Friday, October 05, 2012 2:11 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters Hi Kirk, All of the Outback inverters will work AC coupled (GT and FX) as will any bi-directional H-bridge type inverter. I have used old Trace SW’s, SunnyIsland, Apollo TSW, Magnum AE and now I am using an Outback Radian to do exactly what you are talking about. I have 6 kW of grid tie inverter and an additional 4kw of modules running through a Xantrex 600 volt charge controller to the batteries that the Radian runs on. It all works flawless as long as you have a provision for protecting the batteries when the gid is down and the grid-tie PV system is making more power than the loads are using. If the customer has SMA inverters, I would recommend using a SunnyIsland because the battery control when the grid goes down is so elegant. Everything else is a bit of a kludge. David Katz CTO Founder AEE Solar Inc P: 707 825-1200 F: 707 825-1202 dk...@aeesolar.com mailto:dk...@aeesolar.com www.aeesolar.com http://www.aeesolar.com *From:*re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] mailto:[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kirk Herander *Sent:* Thursday, October 04, 2012 2:11 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters I have AC-coupled an Outback quad-stack with multiple SunnyBoy 6000US inverters and it’s been running fine for 4 years. I used the off-grid version of Outbacks. Now I have an application where a customer wants to add battery backup to an existing SunnyBoy 5000US system. And expand his array by a couple KW. So I’m thinking of using a GT Outback w/ batteries to handle the critical loads and feed the extra 2kw of PV (charging the batteries through an MX60) to the grid. And I’d like to AC-couple the SunnyBoy so the original 5 kw array can also charge the batteries, BUT I remember, at least I think so, that the GT inverter cannot be AC-coupled, only the off-grid version. Is this correct? Thanks. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEP^TM Certified installer Charter Member NYSERDA-eligible Installer VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SunnyIsland - was AC coupling and Outback inverters
We've had problems with the Outback auto transformer when used with Sunny Islands. The internal resistance of the transformer bumped the voltage up too high on a couple of systems and we were getting over voltage errors in the inverter. We switched to a larger transformer and that fixed the problem. __ Will White Regional Field Operations Manager - New England Real Goods Solar 64 Main St. Montpelier, VT 05602 Tel: (802) 223-7804 Cell: (802) 234-3167 www.realgoodssolar.com -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 11:14 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SunnyIsland - was AC coupling and Outback inverters I'm looking forward to checking out the SMA Smartformer. We're sending one of our guys to SMA training later this month to learn more about it is depth. Up to date, we used the Outback PSX-240 like the one found here to 120/240 step up: http://www.altestore.com/store/Enclosures-Electrical-Safety/Miscellaneous- Electrical-Parts/Transformers/Outback-PSX-240-Autotransformer-with-Fan/p40 89/ My experience with a handful of Sunny Island backup systems has been really good. The Sunny Island is a very solid piece of equipment and is easy to program if the plan is properly thought through and everything is wired properly. Good luck with your project! -August -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Click Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 6:01 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SunnyIsland - was AC coupling and Outback inverters Check out the new SMA Smartformer, though I'm not sure whether it's actually shipping yet. I'm thinking about this for my house eventually (SB5000US). http://www.sma-america.com/en_US/products/off-grid-and-back-up-solutions/s martformer-for-sunny-island.html Alternatively, the new SMA TL inverters (at least the 3, 4, and 5kW units according to the press release) have an Emergency Power Supply function that can provide backup power (12A?) during the day when the grid is down. This may meet your customer's requirements. No batteries required, though since the TLs require ungrounded arrays, you may need to rewire the existing array to be compliant with 690.35 (PV Wire or raceway). On 2012/10/5 8:41, Kirk Herander wrote: One Question: Output of the SunnyBoy is 240vac. So this is fed to the critical load panel, of which the SunnyIsland 120 vac output is fed to. So we need a 120/240 step up transformer between the SunnyIsland and the critical load panel to fully take advantage of the Sunnyboy array for battery charging, correct?. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEP^TM Certified installer Charter Member NYSERDA-eligible Installer VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 *From:*re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *David Katz *Sent:* Friday, October 05, 2012 2:11 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters Hi Kirk, All of the Outback inverters will work AC coupled (GT and FX) as will any bi-directional H-bridge type inverter. I have used old Trace SW's, SunnyIsland, Apollo TSW, Magnum AE and now I am using an Outback Radian to do exactly what you are talking about. I have 6 kW of grid tie inverter and an additional 4kw of modules running through a Xantrex 600 volt charge controller to the batteries that the Radian runs on. It all works flawless as long as you have a provision for protecting the batteries when the gid is down and the grid-tie PV system is making more power than the loads are using. If the customer has SMA inverters, I would recommend using a SunnyIsland because the battery control when the grid goes down is so elegant. Everything else is a bit of a kludge. David Katz CTO Founder AEE Solar Inc P: 707 825-1200 F: 707 825-1202 dk...@aeesolar.com mailto:dk...@aeesolar.com www.aeesolar.com http://www.aeesolar.com *From:*re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] mailto:[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kirk Herander *Sent:* Thursday, October 04, 2012 2:11 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters I have AC-coupled an Outback quad-stack with multiple SunnyBoy 6000US inverters and it's been running fine for 4 years. I used the off-grid version of Outbacks. Now I have an application where a customer wants to add battery backup to an existing SunnyBoy 5000US system. And expand his array by a couple KW. So I'm
Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters
You customer might consider using two Sunnyislands instead of a transformer. I used the Sunnyislands without 485 and it still backed of the grid tie inverters. 485 let's the SI put the grid tie inverters in off grid mode, making them less sensative to the UL parameters. David Sent from my HTC smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint! - Reply message - From: Kirk Herander k...@vtsolar.com To: apos;RE-wrenchesapos; re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters Date: Fri, Oct 5, 2012 5:08 am I am leaning towards the SunnyIsland. I assume it backs off the SunnyBoy via RS485 communications and the factory 240 xformer is a plus. The Outback setup might be a little less expensive, but as you say a bit of a kludge. I guess I still need the charge controller for the new PV, as the SunnyIsland doesn’t regulate that. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Certified installer Charter Member NYSERDA-eligible Installer VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Katz Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 2:11 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters Hi Kirk, All of the Outback inverters will work AC coupled (GT and FX) as will any bi-directional H-bridge type inverter. I have used old Trace SW’s, SunnyIsland, Apollo TSW, Magnum AE and now I am using an Outback Radian to do exactly what you are talking about. I have 6 kW of grid tie inverter and an additional 4kw of modules running through a Xantrex 600 volt charge controller to the batteries that the Radian runs on. It all works flawless as long as you have a provision for protecting the batteries when the gid is down and the grid-tie PV system is making more power than the loads are using. If the customer has SMA inverters, I would recommend using a SunnyIsland because the battery control when the grid goes down is so elegant. Everything else is a bit of a kludge. David Katz CTO Founder AEE Solar Inc P: 707 825-1200 F: 707 825-1202 dk...@aeesolar.commailto:dk...@aeesolar.com www.aeesolar.comhttp://www.aeesolar.com From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]mailto:[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 2:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters I have AC-coupled an Outback quad-stack with multiple SunnyBoy 6000US inverters and it’s been running fine for 4 years. I used the off-grid version of Outbacks. Now I have an application where a customer wants to add battery backup to an existing SunnyBoy 5000US system. And expand his array by a couple KW. So I’m thinking of using a GT Outback w/ batteries to handle the critical loads and feed the extra 2kw of PV (charging the batteries through an MX60) to the grid. And I’d like to AC-couple the SunnyBoy so the original 5 kw array can also charge the batteries, BUT I remember, at least I think so, that the GT inverter cannot be AC-coupled, only the off-grid version. Is this correct? Thanks. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Certified installer Charter Member NYSERDA-eligible Installer VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Sunny Control software on Windows 7?
Friends: Can I run the Sunny control Software, circa early 2000s on Windows 7? Thanks in advance... William Miller Miller Solar Voice :805-438-5600 email: will...@millersolar.com http://millersolar.com License No. C-10-773985 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Control software on Windows 7?
I am using SunnyControl on my Windows 7 machine. David Katz Sent from my HTC smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint! - Reply message - From: William Miller will...@millersolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Control software on Windows 7? Date: Fri, Oct 5, 2012 9:14 am Friends: Can I run the Sunny control Software, circa early 2000s on Windows 7? Thanks in advance... William Miller Miller Solar Voice :805-438-5600 email: will...@millersolar.com http://millersolar.com License No. C-10-773985 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmhttp://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.orghttp://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
