Re: [RE-wrenches] Point of Connection 705.12D2 Exception
Jeremy: You are welcome, but credit belongs to Kent Osterberg. wm At 09:02 PM 12/30/2012, you wrote: William, They are using the 2011 code, so we should be good. 705.12D2 exception is a little confusing at first, but I got it. Jeremy Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.455 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/5496 - Release Date: 12/29/12 18:42:00 Miller Solar Voice :805-438-5600 email: will...@millersolar.com http://millersolar.com License No. C-10-773985 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Point of Connection 705.12D2 Exception
William, They are using the 2011 code, so we should be good. 705.12D2 exception is a little confusing at first, but I got it. Jeremy Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Point of Connection 705.12D2 Exception
Jeremy: Bingo! You have discovered the hard truth of grid tie with battery point of connection compliance (GTWB POC). Your inverter will through-transfer up to 60 Amps (A), so to use all of that capability, you should feed it with 60A. However, you are not allowed to feed the inverter with greater than 40A dedicated over-current protection (OCPD). The arithmetic is: Buss rating: 200A Allowed total buss feed: 200A X 120% = 240A Main breaker: 200A Allowed PV feed: 240A-200A= 40A* If you can downgrade the main breaker to 150A you can back feed up to 90A. The arithmetic then is: Buss rating: 200A Allowed total buss feed: 200A X 120% = 240A Main breaker: 150A Allowed PV feed: 240A-150A= 90A Downgrading the main breaker is not easy. Most meter/main/combos (MMCs) will not allow the downgrade-- there is not a 150A breaker made that is designed and listed to fit in the 200 A panel. I have contacted various manufacturers and requested that 200 (MMCs) be made that will readily accept a 150A main breaker, but large corporations do not seem to care about the needs of a small part of the market.. I had found a 200 A MMC that I could downgrade the main breaker to 150 A, but not easily. The fit was not perfect -- I had to modify the hold down bracket, but it passed inspection. Technically I suppose the MMC was no longer compliant with the listing once I modified it, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. Good Luck. William Miller * PS: I believe the 2011 NEC has an exception that applies, but I do not believe any jurisdictions are using that code. I have convinced my local building officials to pre-adopt certain future code sections. Maybe you can make the case to your local inspectors. Meet with them, explain the limitations of the XW as far as intertie amperage and maybe they will allow use of a 60A breaker. Wm At 04:27 PM 12/30/2012, you wrote: I'm concerned that the inspector will not allow a 60A back fed breaker in the 200A main panel as it exceeds the 120% rule Jeremy Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand! ___ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Point of Connection 705.12D2 Exception
Kent: I do not have that document handy at this moment. Can you send the citation, please? Thanks, William Miller At 04:56 PM 12/30/2012, you wrote: If you are using the 2011 NEC, 705.12(D)(2) has an exception to the 120% rule for inverters with energy storage to allow for operation of loads. Kent Osterberg ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Point of Connection 705.12D2 Exception
If you are using the 2011 NEC, 705.12(D)(2) has an exception to the 120% rule for inverters with energy storage to allow for operation of loads. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com t: 541-568-4882 On 12/30/2012 4:27 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez- All Solar Inc. wrote: I'm concerned that the inspector will not allow a 60A back fed breaker in the 200A main panel as it exceeds the 120% rule Jeremy Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Point of Connection 705.12D2 Exception
I'm concerned that the inspector will not allow a 60A back fed breaker in the 200A main panel as it exceeds the 120% rule Jeremy Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Point of Connection 705.12D2 Exception
Jeremy: The XW-6048 spec for maximum AC Input Current (maximum 75% imbalance between L1-N, L2-N) is: L-N: 41.2 AL-L: 27.5 A So, with a Line to Neutral current of 41.2A x 1.25 = 51.5A or rounds up to 60A 2-pole breaker. This condition could occur in a grid-tied configuration when the inverter is in AC BYPASS mode and the batteries are being charged from the grid. Regards, Gary Willett On 12/30/2012 4:48 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez- All Solar Inc. wrote: Ok, so 35A min., but what about maximum? A 200A mains panels allows 120% max back feed correct? Confused. Jeremy All Solar Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand! -Original Message- From: John Berdner Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 23:54:17 To: allso...@scswifi.net; RE-wrenches Subject: RE: [RE-wrenches] Point of Connection 705.12D2 Exception Jeremy: 31.25 is the minimum allowable Ampacity (25 Amps continuous) so a 35 Amp breaker would be the minimum size per Code. The inverter may have a higher "pass through rating" to support the loads and so is likely the reason a 60 Amp breaker is specified. The pass through rating is typically based on the size of the isolation relay and is usually higher than the inverter's continuous power rating. Best Regards, John Berdner General Manager, North America 3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA (*Please note of our new address.) T: 510.498.3201 ext 747 M: 530.277.4894 -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez- All Solar Inc. Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:35 AM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Point of Connection 705.12D2 Exception Wrenches, Since the XW6048 calls for a 60A breaker to feed the inverter input and we are connecting back to the load side of a 200A panel is this correct. 6000÷240=25X1.25=31.25A. We cannot exceed a 30A breaker? Help me understand this. Jeremy All Solar Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and its attachments are intended only for the use of the individual or entity who is the intended recipient and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure or any type of use under applicable law. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, or the employee, agent, or representative responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please reply immediately to the sender. P Please think of the environment before printing this email ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Point of Connection 705.12D2 Exception
Ok, so 35A min., but what about maximum? A 200A mains panels allows 120% max back feed correct? Confused. Jeremy All Solar Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand! -Original Message- From: John Berdner Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 23:54:17 To: allso...@scswifi.net; RE-wrenches Subject: RE: [RE-wrenches] Point of Connection 705.12D2 Exception Jeremy: 31.25 is the minimum allowable Ampacity (25 Amps continuous) so a 35 Amp breaker would be the minimum size per Code. The inverter may have a higher "pass through rating" to support the loads and so is likely the reason a 60 Amp breaker is specified. The pass through rating is typically based on the size of the isolation relay and is usually higher than the inverter's continuous power rating. Best Regards, John Berdner General Manager, North America 3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA (*Please note of our new address.) T: 510.498.3201 ext 747 M: 530.277.4894 -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez- All Solar Inc. Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:35 AM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Point of Connection 705.12D2 Exception Wrenches, Since the XW6048 calls for a 60A breaker to feed the inverter input and we are connecting back to the load side of a 200A panel is this correct. 6000÷240=25X1.25=31.25A. We cannot exceed a 30A breaker? Help me understand this. Jeremy All Solar Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and its attachments are intended only for the use of the individual or entity who is the intended recipient and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure or any type of use under applicable law. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, or the employee, agent, or representative responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please reply immediately to the sender. P Please think of the environment before printing this email ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Point of Connection 705.12D2 Exception
Jeremy: 31.25 is the minimum allowable Ampacity (25 Amps continuous) so a 35 Amp breaker would be the minimum size per Code. The inverter may have a higher "pass through rating" to support the loads and so is likely the reason a 60 Amp breaker is specified. The pass through rating is typically based on the size of the isolation relay and is usually higher than the inverter's continuous power rating. Best Regards, John Berdner General Manager, North America 3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA (*Please note of our new address.) T: 510.498.3201 ext 747 M: 530.277.4894 -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez- All Solar Inc. Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:35 AM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Point of Connection 705.12D2 Exception Wrenches, Since the XW6048 calls for a 60A breaker to feed the inverter input and we are connecting back to the load side of a 200A panel is this correct. 6000÷240=25X1.25=31.25A. We cannot exceed a 30A breaker? Help me understand this. Jeremy All Solar Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and its attachments are intended only for the use of the individual or entity who is the intended recipient and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure or any type of use under applicable law. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, or the employee, agent, or representative responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please reply immediately to the sender. P Please think of the environment before printing this email ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Point of Connection 705.12D2 Exception
Wrenches, Since the XW6048 calls for a 60A breaker to feed the inverter input and we are connecting back to the load side of a 200A panel is this correct. 6000÷240=25X1.25=31.25A. We cannot exceed a 30A breaker? Help me understand this. Jeremy All Solar Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
