[RE-wrenches] lithium batteries

[jay peltz]

HI All,

Is there a rough voltage range ( high/low nominal) for the lithium family of 
batteries?

I'm curious if our current range of inverters can work with these batteries, at 
least on the load side, probably not on the charging side.

thanks,

jay

peltz power
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[RE-wrenches] Blue Sky V Outback

[William Miller]

Friends:

If you are accustomed to using an Outback CC and not the Blue Sky, there is 
an important difference:  The Blue Sky requires that the PV negative 
current be routed through the device.


William Miller

Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985

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Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

True, the 2512iX-HV model is for 12 volt systems only. The 1524iX will operate 
with 12 or 24 volt and can handle up to 57Voc. However, in the manual it 
recommends no more than 45.6 Voc for 24 volt operation with 33 to 37 volt 
modules. I'm guessing the conversion efficiency suffers outside that range.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Jan 24, 2013, at 3:07 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

Larry,
Yes, but isn't it 12V-only output? When I called Rick Cullen to ask if he had 
anything to work with 60-cell modules, he told me only in 12V output, which we 
seldom encounter any more.
Thanks,
Allan

Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com



On 1/24/2013 2:01 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
> Blue Sky Energy just came out with a MPPT controller for 60 cell modules 
> called the 2512iX-HV. It can handle up to 270 Watts input/60 cells and 340 
> Watts input with 36 cell modules.
> 
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jan 24, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Jay Peltz wrote:
> 
> Hi guys
> 
> I've buying the new 6" cell x 72 cell from Trina from a few suppliers. 
> Big yea, but same 44voc  so it's an easy add to existing systems. 
> 
> A huge relief. 
> 
> Jay
> 
> Peltz power
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jan 24, 2013, at 12:11 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:
> 
>> Hi Allan;
>> 
>> I've been in the same conundrum lately.  I found that AEE and others have 12 
>> v modules (Solartech), but the price per watt is double or triple.  My take 
>> is that somewhere around 200 to 400 watts, its more cost effective to go to 
>> the GT modules with an MPPT controller.  Blue Sky makes the 1524, and 3024 
>> that can take up to 57 Voc, so those would work at still fairly low cost.  
>> Unfortunately many of the other low cost MPPT controllers won't work with 
>> the 60 cell modules.  At some point, it may actually be cost effective to 
>> just use 60 cell modules with non MPPT controllers, and just forget about 
>> the extra 24 cells.  (I know that sounds crazy, but PV less than $1/ watt is 
>> crazy too)
>> 
>> I'm trying to add modules to an existing array of 8 Siemens 12 v modules, 
>> and it just doesn't work out, except with separate controllers. 
>> Also, its amazing how much PV you can throw at an off grid project these 
>> days for $10k.
>> It almost makes messing around with the old modules a waste of time.
>> Perhaps the solution might be to remove old arrays for customers wanting to 
>> really up size, and then reuse the old modules for small systems?
>> 
>> Ray
>> 
>> On 1/24/2013 12:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
>>> Wrenches,
>>> We have years of installing 36-cell (12V) and 72-cell (24V) modules for 
>>> battery-based customers. Most of our systems are 24V or 48V nominal. Over 
>>> the last few years, sources of conventionally-sized 72-cell modules have 
>>> dried up - as cells have increased in size, most modules and most newer 
>>> factory production lines have either gone to 60-cell (20V) modules, or 72 
>>> cells in 300+ watt ranges. It seems that the formerly common 72 cell, 24V 
>>> modules in the 150-190 watt range, which are well-suited to integrating 
>>> into existing systems, are no longer available.
>>> 
>>> 60-cell modules in the common 220-250 watt range can't be added to an 
>>> existing system unless run through a dedicated MPPT charge controller that 
>>> can convert voltage, such as an FM, XW60, Classic or TriStar; the added 
>>> cost of any of these controllers cancels out the low prices of the modules.
>>> 
>>> Who continues to manufacture 72-cell modules? Which distributors carry them?
>>> I am aware of three options - are there more?
>>> - Sunpower makes one module in the 245 watt range that can be used 
>>> negative ground, but it's very high efficiency (and with high Voc/Vmp as 
>>> well) and very pricey;
>>> - Sanyo/Panasonic has 225-240 watt modules, but also quite premium and 
>>> pricey;
>>> - Ameresco bought the rights to manufacture many former BP modules, and 
>>> I think they make some. But we had to replace lots of failed BP modules in 
>>> that size range, and are hesitant to use their technology, fearing that the 
>>> problems may persist in the continued line.
>>> 
>>> Thank you for any discussion and recommendations.
>>> Allan
>>> -- 
>>> Allan Sindelar
>>> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
>>> NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
>>> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
>>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
>>> Founder and Chief Technology Officer
>>> Positive Energy, Inc.
>>> 3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
>>> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
>>> 505 424-1112
>>> www.positiveenergysolar.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>

Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query

[Ray Walters]

  
  
Hi John;
  
  Would we not need an MPPT controller, just a regular PWM type,
  then?  That might be a solution for these democracy arrays.
  
  Ray
  
  On 1/24/2013 3:16 PM, John Berdner wrote:


  
  
  
  
  
  

  Alan:
   
  You
  can also use one of our Optimizers with IndOp.
  This
  will buck of boost the module voltage to match the battery
  voltage.
  Still
  would need some form of charge control to protect the
  battery but this would provide an easy way to add new 60
  cell modules to an existing 72 cell array.
  Feel
  free to contact me if you have any questions.
   
  
Best
Regards,
 
John
Berdner
General
Manager, North America
 

 
SolarEdge
Technologies, Inc.
3347
Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA  (*Please
note of our new address.)
T: 510.498.3200, X 747
M:
530.277.4894 
  
   
  

  From:
  re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
  [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Allan Sindelar
  Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 11:35 AM
  To: RE-wrenches
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query

  
   
  Wrenches,
We have years of installing 36-cell (12V) and 72-cell (24V)
modules for battery-based customers. Most of our systems are
24V or 48V nominal. Over the last few years, sources of
conventionally-sized 72-cell modules have dried up - as
cells have increased in size, most modules and most newer
factory production lines have either gone to 60-cell (20V)
modules, or 72 cells in 300+ watt ranges. It seems that the
formerly common 72 cell, 24V modules in the 150-190 watt
range, which are well-suited to integrating into existing
systems, are no longer available.

60-cell modules in the common 220-250 watt range can't be
added to an existing system unless run through a dedicated
MPPT charge controller that can convert voltage, such as an
FM, XW60, Classic or TriStar; the added cost of any of these
controllers cancels out the low prices of the modules.

Who continues to manufacture 72-cell modules? Which
distributors carry them?
    I am aware of three options - are there more?
    - Sunpower makes one module in the 245 watt range that
can be used negative ground, but it's very high efficiency
(and with high Voc/Vmp as well) and very pricey;
    - Sanyo/Panasonic has 225-240 watt modules, but also
quite premium and pricey;
    - Ameresco bought the rights to manufacture many former
BP modules, and I think they make some. But we had to
replace lots of failed BP modules in that size range, and
are hesitant to use their technology, fearing that the
problems may persist in the continued line.

Thank you for any discussion and recommendations.
Allan
  
-- 
  Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
  NABCEP Certified
Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com
  
 
 
  

  
  
CONFIDENTIALITY
  NOTICE: This e-mail and its attachments are intended only
  for the use of the individual or entity who is the
  intended recipient and may contain information that is
  privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure or any
  type of use under applicable law. If the reader of this
  e-mail is not the intended recipient, or the employee,
  agent, or representative responsible for delivering the
  e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
  that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other
  use of this 

Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query

[Ray Walters]

Blue Sky's 1524 and 3024 work with 60 cell mods, and have 12 or 24 v 
output.  I have a several 3048s that have been in service for over 12 
years, no problems.



Ray
On 1/24/2013 3:07 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

Larry,
Yes, but isn't it 12V-only output? When I called Rick Cullen to ask if 
he had anything to work with 60-cell modules, he told me only in 12V 
output, which we seldom encounter any more.

Thanks,
Allan

*Allan Sindelar*
_Allan@positiveenergysolar.com_ 
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
*Positive Energy, Inc.*
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
*505 424-1112*
_www.positiveenergysolar.com_ 

*
*


On 1/24/2013 2:01 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
Blue Sky Energy just came out with a MPPT controller for 60 cell 
modules called the 2512iX-HV. It can handle up to 270 Watts input/60 
cells and 340 Watts input with 36 cell modules.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Jan 24, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Jay Peltz wrote:

Hi guys

I've buying the new 6" cell x 72 cell from Trina from a few suppliers.
Big yea, but same 44voc  so it's an easy add to existing systems.

A huge relief.

Jay

Peltz power

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 24, 2013, at 12:11 PM, Ray Walters > wrote:



Hi Allan;

I've been in the same conundrum lately.  I found that AEE and others 
have 12 v modules (Solartech), but the price per watt is double or 
triple.  My take is that somewhere around 200 to 400 watts, its more 
cost effective to go to the GT modules with an MPPT controller.  
Blue Sky makes the 1524, and 3024 that can take up to 57 Voc, so 
those would work at still fairly low cost.  Unfortunately many of 
the other low cost MPPT controllers won't work with the 60 cell 
modules.  At some point, it may actually be cost effective to just 
use 60 cell modules with non MPPT controllers, and just forget about 
the extra 24 cells.  (I know that sounds crazy, but PV less than $1/ 
watt is crazy too)


I'm trying to add modules to an existing array of 8 Siemens 12 v 
modules, and it just doesn't work out, except with separate 
controllers.
Also, its amazing how much PV you can throw at an off grid project 
these days for $10k.

It almost makes messing around with the old modules a waste of time.
Perhaps the solution might be to remove old arrays for customers 
wanting to really up size, and then reuse the old modules for small 
systems?


Ray

On 1/24/2013 12:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

Wrenches,
We have years of installing 36-cell (12V) and 72-cell (24V) modules 
for battery-based customers. Most of our systems are 24V or 48V 
nominal. Over the last few years, sources of conventionally-sized 
72-cell modules have dried up - as cells have increased in size, 
most modules and most newer factory production lines have either 
gone to 60-cell (20V) modules, or 72 cells in 300+ watt ranges. It 
seems that the formerly common 72 cell, 24V modules in the 150-190 
watt range, which are well-suited to integrating into existing 
systems, are no longer available.


60-cell modules in the common 220-250 watt range can't be added to 
an existing system unless run through a dedicated MPPT charge 
controller that can convert voltage, such as an FM, XW60, Classic 
or TriStar; the added cost of any of these controllers cancels out 
the low prices of the modules.


Who continues to manufacture 72-cell modules? Which distributors 
carry them?

I am aware of three options - are there more?
- Sunpower makes one module in the 245 watt range that can be 
used negative ground, but it's very high efficiency (and with high 
Voc/Vmp as well) and very pricey;
- Sanyo/Panasonic has 225-240 watt modules, but also quite 
premium and pricey;
- Ameresco bought the rights to manufacture many former BP 
modules, and I think they make some. But we had to replace lots of 
failed BP modules in that size range, and are hesitant to use their 
technology, fearing that the problems may persist in the continued 
line.


Thank you for any discussion and recommendations.
Allan
--
*Allan Sindelar*
_Allan@positiveenergysolar.com_ 
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
*Positive Energy, Inc.*
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
*505 424-1112*
_www.positiveenergysolar.com_ 

*
*




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Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query

[John Berdner]

Alan:

You can also use one of our Optimizers with IndOp.
This will buck of boost the module voltage to match the battery voltage.
Still would need some form of charge control to protect the battery but this 
would provide an easy way to add new 60 cell modules to an existing 72 cell 
array.
Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

Best Regards,

John Berdner
General Manager, North America

[cid:image001.jpg@01CDFA39.F671DEB0]

SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.
3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA  (*Please note of our new address.)
T: 510.498.3200, X 747
M: 530.277.4894

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 11:35 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query

Wrenches,
We have years of installing 36-cell (12V) and 72-cell (24V) modules for 
battery-based customers. Most of our systems are 24V or 48V nominal. Over the 
last few years, sources of conventionally-sized 72-cell modules have dried up - 
as cells have increased in size, most modules and most newer factory production 
lines have either gone to 60-cell (20V) modules, or 72 cells in 300+ watt 
ranges. It seems that the formerly common 72 cell, 24V modules in the 150-190 
watt range, which are well-suited to integrating into existing systems, are no 
longer available.

60-cell modules in the common 220-250 watt range can't be added to an existing 
system unless run through a dedicated MPPT charge controller that can convert 
voltage, such as an FM, XW60, Classic or TriStar; the added cost of any of 
these controllers cancels out the low prices of the modules.

Who continues to manufacture 72-cell modules? Which distributors carry them?
I am aware of three options - are there more?
- Sunpower makes one module in the 245 watt range that can be used negative 
ground, but it's very high efficiency (and with high Voc/Vmp as well) and very 
pricey;
- Sanyo/Panasonic has 225-240 watt modules, but also quite premium and 
pricey;
- Ameresco bought the rights to manufacture many former BP modules, and I 
think they make some. But we had to replace lots of failed BP modules in that 
size range, and are hesitant to use their technology, fearing that the problems 
may persist in the continued line.

Thank you for any discussion and recommendations.
Allan
--
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com


CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and its attachments are intended only for 
the use of the individual or entity who is the intended recipient and may 
contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure 
or any type of use under applicable law. If the reader of this e-mail is not 
the intended recipient, or the employee, agent, or representative responsible 
for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified 
that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this e-mail is 
strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please reply 
immediately to the sender.
P  Please think of the environment before printing this email
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Equipment Rating vs. Terminal/Lug Rating

[John Berdner]

Chris/August:


1)  The terminal temperatures in a piece of equipment should have been 
evaluated as part of the Listing process.  The manufacturer should specify the 
temperature rating of the terminals and the wire temperature and type, e.g.  
(Al/Cu).  The NRTL will do temperature measurements on the minimum specified 
wire and terminals at max power and max specified ambient.  If all the 
temperatures are ok then the product would be approved for 90C wire even if the 
temperature rating of that terminal was lower.  This is because a Listed 
terminal is approved for general use and no temperature tests will be run in 
the field.



This issue also ties into the minimum and maximum wire sizes allowed and the 
wire bending space inside the product.  For Example: A product might be 
designed for copper wire only due to wire bending.  The wire bending space 
required for the larger Al wire might be greater than available space in the 
product (this is typically a significant cost driver). The use of Al wire would 
be precluded even if the Al wire would fit in the terminal and the terminal 
were rated from Al/Cu.  In our case we specify 90C copper wire only and test 
for that at the minimum wire size allowed by NEC to carry the design current 
and at max power / max ambient we specify.  Min and max torques must also be 
specified.  All of this should be on the unit rating label or in the manual.



What happens on the other end of the wire is a separate issue and you need to 
make sure the terminal at the other end also meets NEC requirement at the 
conditions specified by the manufacturer of that equipment.

Best Regards,

John Berdner
General Manager, North America

[cid:image001.jpg@01CDFA3C.9E6DCC30]

SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.
3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA  (*Please note of our new address.)
T: 510.498.3200, X 747
M: 530.277.4894

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 11:59 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Equipment Rating vs. Terminal/Lug Rating

Hi Chris,

Here are my thoughts on your questions/notes below. Please note that I'm in no 
way an expert in this field, I've only had to deal with it from time to time 
through our workings with various situations and AHJs.


1.   I believe terminal and equipment ratings can vary within one piece of 
equipment. Even a typical breaker might have a 70°C rated terminal but is only 
rated at 40°C max operating temperature. I would think that this is the 
manufacturer's decision on what rating to apply to their overall equipment - 
and it might very well be driven by a UL type test but I don't know. I've 
called inverter manufacturers a few times to try to figure out what their 
terminal and or equipment temperature ratings are. Most of the time they don't 
know. More recently I've been told 75°C but wasn't given any documentation to 
prove it. I just saw a recent SunPower branded PowerOne inverter manual which 
stated it has 90°C terminal ratings.

2.   NEC 110.14(C) addresses this a bit. My understanding is that the 
current standard for equipment rated over 100 A is 75°C (and 60 °C for less 
than 100 A) but that older equipment, say 40 years + old, was 60°C. This is 
what our inspectors in San Francisco have told me and seems to be consistent to 
what I see on the equipment labels (we take digital photos of equipment labels 
for each project) for existing equipment. Once again, this is only a rough rule 
of thumb and I'm sure that there are other temp ratings for certain types of 
equipment. For example, I'm looking at a Murray LC008DF residential load center 
which states "Size wire only to 60°C or 75°C ampacity limits.  Size wire in 
accordance with breaker markings and wire bending space requirements." The 
breaker then in turn says "CU-AL 60/75°C WIRE."

3.   Good question.

4.   I guess that would be specified in the equipment manual or maybe be 
some internal manufacturer documentation. Or maybe once again a UL-driven type 
requirement?

5.   Most modern load centers, panel boards, disconnect switches that I've 
seen are all 60/75 °C rated. I'm looking at the device label on a Square D 
DU324 disconnect and it says "Lugs suitable for 75°C CU - AL conductors."

Anyway, this might provide some info for you. Do you have a particular issue in 
mind that you're trying to solve for?

Best, August

From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
 On Behalf Of Chris Anderson
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 6:52 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment Rating vs. Terminal/Lug Rating

How to properly size conductors based on insulation and termination temperature 
ratings is an often discussed topic among PV designers. Those discus

Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Larry,
  Yes, but isn't it 12V-only output? When I called Rick Cullen to
  ask if he had anything to work with 60-cell modules, he told me
  only in 12V output, which we seldom encounter any more.
  Thanks,
  Allan
  
  


Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
  NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com



 
  On 1/24/2013 2:01 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power
  Systems wrote:

Blue Sky Energy just came out with a MPPT controller
  for 60 cell modules called the 2512iX-HV. It can handle up to 270
  Watts input/60 cells and 340 Watts input with 36 cell modules.
  
  
  
  
  

  
Larry Crutcher
  Starlight Solar Power Systems

  


  




  

  
  
  
On Jan 24, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Jay Peltz wrote:



  Hi guys
  
  
  I've buying the new 6" cell x 72 cell from Trina from a
few suppliers. 
  Big yea, but same 44voc  so it's an easy add to existing
systems. 
  
  
  A huge relief. 
  
  
  Jay
  
  
  Peltz power
  
Sent from my iPhone
  
On Jan 24, 2013, at 12:11 PM, Ray Walters 
wrote:

  
  

  
  Hi Allan;

I've been in the same conundrum lately.  I found that
AEE and others have 12 v modules (Solartech), but the
price per watt is double or triple.  My take is that
somewhere around 200 to 400 watts, its more cost
effective to go to the GT modules with an MPPT
controller.  Blue Sky makes the 1524, and 3024 that can
take up to 57 Voc, so those would work at still fairly
low cost.  Unfortunately many of the other low cost MPPT
controllers won't work with the 60 cell modules.  At
some point, it may actually be cost effective to just
use 60 cell modules with non MPPT controllers, and just
forget about the extra 24 cells.  (I know that sounds
crazy, but PV less than $1/ watt is crazy too)

I'm trying to add modules to an existing array of 8
Siemens 12 v modules, and it just doesn't work out,
except with separate controllers. 
Also, its amazing how much PV you can throw at an off
grid project these days for $10k.
It almost makes messing around with the old modules a
waste of time.
Perhaps the solution might be to remove old arrays for
customers wanting to really up size, and then reuse the
old modules for small systems?

Ray

On 1/24/2013 12:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
  
  

Wrenches,
We have years of installing 36-cell (12V) and 72-cell
(24V) modules for battery-based customers. Most of our
systems are 24V or 48V nominal. Over the last few years,
sources of conventionally-sized 72-cell modules have
dried up - as cells have increased in size, most modules
and most newer factory production lines have either gone
to 60-cell (20V) modules, or 72 cells in 300+ watt
ranges. It seems that the formerly common 72 cell, 24V
modules in the 150-190 watt range, which are well-suited
to integrating into existing systems, are no longer
available.

60-cell modules in the common 220-250 watt range can't
be added to an existing system unless run through a
dedicated MPPT charge controller that can convert
voltage, such as an FM, 

Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
(off list) What brand and model are
  they, Larry?
  Allan
  
  


Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
  NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com



 
  On 1/24/2013 2:16 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power
  Systems wrote:

Sorry, the 155 Watt modules have MC4's, not Tyco.
  

  
  
  
  

  
  
  Larry 

  





  
  
  
On Jan 24, 2013, at 12:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:


 Wrenches,
  We have years of installing 36-cell (12V) and 72-cell (24V)
  modules for battery-based customers. Most of our systems are
  24V or 48V nominal. Over the last few years, sources of
  conventionally-sized 72-cell modules have dried up - as cells
  have increased in size, most modules and most newer factory
  production lines have either gone to 60-cell (20V) modules, or
  72 cells in 300+ watt ranges. It seems that the formerly
  common 72 cell, 24V modules in the 150-190 watt range, which
  are well-suited to integrating into existing systems, are no
  longer available.
  
  60-cell modules in the common 220-250 watt range can't be
  added to an existing system unless run through a dedicated
  MPPT charge controller that can convert voltage, such as an
  FM, XW60, Classic or TriStar; the added cost of any of these
  controllers cancels out the low prices of the modules.
  
  Who continues to manufacture 72-cell modules? Which
  distributors carry them?
      I am aware of three options - are there more?
      - Sunpower makes one module in the 245 watt range that can
  be used negative ground, but it's very high efficiency (and
  with high Voc/Vmp as well) and very pricey;
      - Sanyo/Panasonic has 225-240 watt modules, but also quite
  premium and pricey;
      - Ameresco bought the rights to manufacture many former BP
  modules, and I think they make some. But we had to replace
  lots of failed BP modules in that size range, and are hesitant
  to use their technology, fearing that the problems may persist
  in the continued line.
  
  Thank you for any discussion and recommendations.
  Allan
  -- 


Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
  NABCEP Certified
Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com



 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query

[William Miller]

Friends:

Again, welcome to the world of PV design.

I suggest one become accomplished at analyzing IV curves for various PV 
strings.  I created a spreadsheet that helps me analyze these values.  You 
can then see if you can mix and match modules to find workable solutions.


I recently was asked to upgrade a system with a bunch of Arco modules.  I 
found that if I mixed strings of I believe 3 or 4 Arco modules with strings 
of 1 or 2 Solar World modules (exact quantities escape me), I had a pretty 
good match.  We connected these to an MX60.  After install, we tested MPP 
parameters and charging rates of each string individually and the strings 
combined and we found the system worked pretty well.


Good luck,

William Miller

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Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Sorry, the 155 Watt modules have MC4's, not Tyco.

Larry 


On Jan 24, 2013, at 12:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

Wrenches,
We have years of installing 36-cell (12V) and 72-cell (24V) modules for 
battery-based customers. Most of our systems are 24V or 48V nominal. Over the 
last few years, sources of conventionally-sized 72-cell modules have dried up - 
as cells have increased in size, most modules and most newer factory production 
lines have either gone to 60-cell (20V) modules, or 72 cells in 300+ watt 
ranges. It seems that the formerly common 72 cell, 24V modules in the 150-190 
watt range, which are well-suited to integrating into existing systems, are no 
longer available.

60-cell modules in the common 220-250 watt range can't be added to an existing 
system unless run through a dedicated MPPT charge controller that can convert 
voltage, such as an FM, XW60, Classic or TriStar; the added cost of any of 
these controllers cancels out the low prices of the modules.

Who continues to manufacture 72-cell modules? Which distributors carry them?
I am aware of three options - are there more?
- Sunpower makes one module in the 245 watt range that can be used negative 
ground, but it's very high efficiency (and with high Voc/Vmp as well) and very 
pricey;
- Sanyo/Panasonic has 225-240 watt modules, but also quite premium and 
pricey;
- Ameresco bought the rights to manufacture many former BP modules, and I 
think they make some. But we had to replace lots of failed BP modules in that 
size range, and are hesitant to use their technology, fearing that the problems 
may persist in the continued line.

Thank you for any discussion and recommendations.
Allan
-- 
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com



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[RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Blue Sky Energy just came out with a MPPT controller for 60 cell modules called 
the 2512iX-HV. It can handle up to 270 Watts input/60 cells and 340 Watts input 
with 36 cell modules.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Jan 24, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Jay Peltz wrote:

Hi guys

I've buying the new 6" cell x 72 cell from Trina from a few suppliers. 
Big yea, but same 44voc  so it's an easy add to existing systems. 

A huge relief. 

Jay

Peltz power

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 24, 2013, at 12:11 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

> Hi Allan;
> 
> I've been in the same conundrum lately.  I found that AEE and others have 12 
> v modules (Solartech), but the price per watt is double or triple.  My take 
> is that somewhere around 200 to 400 watts, its more cost effective to go to 
> the GT modules with an MPPT controller.  Blue Sky makes the 1524, and 3024 
> that can take up to 57 Voc, so those would work at still fairly low cost.  
> Unfortunately many of the other low cost MPPT controllers won't work with the 
> 60 cell modules.  At some point, it may actually be cost effective to just 
> use 60 cell modules with non MPPT controllers, and just forget about the 
> extra 24 cells.  (I know that sounds crazy, but PV less than $1/ watt is 
> crazy too)
> 
> I'm trying to add modules to an existing array of 8 Siemens 12 v modules, and 
> it just doesn't work out, except with separate controllers. 
> Also, its amazing how much PV you can throw at an off grid project these days 
> for $10k.
> It almost makes messing around with the old modules a waste of time.
> Perhaps the solution might be to remove old arrays for customers wanting to 
> really up size, and then reuse the old modules for small systems?
> 
> Ray
> 
> On 1/24/2013 12:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
>> Wrenches,
>> We have years of installing 36-cell (12V) and 72-cell (24V) modules for 
>> battery-based customers. Most of our systems are 24V or 48V nominal. Over 
>> the last few years, sources of conventionally-sized 72-cell modules have 
>> dried up - as cells have increased in size, most modules and most newer 
>> factory production lines have either gone to 60-cell (20V) modules, or 72 
>> cells in 300+ watt ranges. It seems that the formerly common 72 cell, 24V 
>> modules in the 150-190 watt range, which are well-suited to integrating into 
>> existing systems, are no longer available.
>> 
>> 60-cell modules in the common 220-250 watt range can't be added to an 
>> existing system unless run through a dedicated MPPT charge controller that 
>> can convert voltage, such as an FM, XW60, Classic or TriStar; the added cost 
>> of any of these controllers cancels out the low prices of the modules.
>> 
>> Who continues to manufacture 72-cell modules? Which distributors carry them?
>> I am aware of three options - are there more?
>> - Sunpower makes one module in the 245 watt range that can be used 
>> negative ground, but it's very high efficiency (and with high Voc/Vmp as 
>> well) and very pricey;
>> - Sanyo/Panasonic has 225-240 watt modules, but also quite premium and 
>> pricey;
>> - Ameresco bought the rights to manufacture many former BP modules, and 
>> I think they make some. But we had to replace lots of failed BP modules in 
>> that size range, and are hesitant to use their technology, fearing that the 
>> problems may persist in the continued line.
>> 
>> Thank you for any discussion and recommendations.
>> Allan
>> -- 
>> Allan Sindelar
>> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
>> NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
>> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
>> Founder and Chief Technology Officer
>> Positive Energy, Inc.
>> 3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
>> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
>> 505 424-1112
>> www.positiveenergysolar.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

One other thingI have been selling 155 watt PV modules, mono with very low 
temp. coefficient of -0.23%/°C,  that are 17.5 Vmp and 21.6 Voc. These are very 
good performance modules and efficient too. 26.5" x 58.3" and Tyco connectors 
attached.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Jan 24, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Jay Peltz wrote:

Hi guys

I've buying the new 6" cell x 72 cell from Trina from a few suppliers. 
Big yea, but same 44voc  so it's an easy add to existing systems. 

A huge relief. 

Jay

Peltz power

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 24, 2013, at 12:11 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

> Hi Allan;
> 
> I've been in the same conundrum lately.  I found that AEE and others have 12 
> v modules (Solartech), but the price per watt is double or triple.  My take 
> is that somewhere around 200 to 400 watts, its more cost effective to go to 
> the GT modules with an MPPT controller.  Blue Sky makes the 1524, and 3024 
> that can take up to 57 Voc, so those would work at still fairly low cost.  
> Unfortunately many of the other low cost MPPT controllers won't work with the 
> 60 cell modules.  At some point, it may actually be cost effective to just 
> use 60 cell modules with non MPPT controllers, and just forget about the 
> extra 24 cells.  (I know that sounds crazy, but PV less than $1/ watt is 
> crazy too)
> 
> I'm trying to add modules to an existing array of 8 Siemens 12 v modules, and 
> it just doesn't work out, except with separate controllers. 
> Also, its amazing how much PV you can throw at an off grid project these days 
> for $10k.
> It almost makes messing around with the old modules a waste of time.
> Perhaps the solution might be to remove old arrays for customers wanting to 
> really up size, and then reuse the old modules for small systems?
> 
> Ray
> 
> On 1/24/2013 12:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
>> Wrenches,
>> We have years of installing 36-cell (12V) and 72-cell (24V) modules for 
>> battery-based customers. Most of our systems are 24V or 48V nominal. Over 
>> the last few years, sources of conventionally-sized 72-cell modules have 
>> dried up - as cells have increased in size, most modules and most newer 
>> factory production lines have either gone to 60-cell (20V) modules, or 72 
>> cells in 300+ watt ranges. It seems that the formerly common 72 cell, 24V 
>> modules in the 150-190 watt range, which are well-suited to integrating into 
>> existing systems, are no longer available.
>> 
>> 60-cell modules in the common 220-250 watt range can't be added to an 
>> existing system unless run through a dedicated MPPT charge controller that 
>> can convert voltage, such as an FM, XW60, Classic or TriStar; the added cost 
>> of any of these controllers cancels out the low prices of the modules.
>> 
>> Who continues to manufacture 72-cell modules? Which distributors carry them?
>> I am aware of three options - are there more?
>> - Sunpower makes one module in the 245 watt range that can be used 
>> negative ground, but it's very high efficiency (and with high Voc/Vmp as 
>> well) and very pricey;
>> - Sanyo/Panasonic has 225-240 watt modules, but also quite premium and 
>> pricey;
>> - Ameresco bought the rights to manufacture many former BP modules, and 
>> I think they make some. But we had to replace lots of failed BP modules in 
>> that size range, and are hesitant to use their technology, fearing that the 
>> problems may persist in the continued line.
>> 
>> Thank you for any discussion and recommendations.
>> Allan
>> -- 
>> Allan Sindelar
>> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
>> NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
>> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
>> Founder and Chief Technology Officer
>> Positive Energy, Inc.
>> 3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
>> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
>> 505 424-1112
>> www.positiveenergysolar.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Op

Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query

[Jason Szumlanski]

I'm not sure that AC coupling would work with the old SW inverters.
Assuming they are stacked for 240V, I don't see why it couldn't work. I
would actually like to know because I have dual SW5548's on my farm in the
Caribbean and I am considering adding more PV. Adding PV on the DC side
would be a bit difficult in this case. Since most of the load there is
during the day, I would rather avoid the losses through the batteries and
just add PV on the AC side of the off-grid inverter.

I was making more of a general statement. AC coupling would offset the
impact from reducing the DC PV rating if you lose modules and have to
reconfigure strings. It might not be the cheapest solution, but it might
make the best long-term sense. Every situation is going to be different...

*Jason Szumlanski*

*Fafco Solar*

On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 3:49 PM, Allan Sindelar <
al...@positiveenergysolar.com> wrote:

>  Jason,
> How do you AC couple some microinverters to cover the decrease in
> performance in an off grid system, especially with older equipment, such as
> an SW4024?
> Thanks, Allan
>
>
>  *Allan Sindelar*
> *al...@positiveenergysolar.com* 
> NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder and Chief Technology Officer
> *Positive Energy, Inc.*
> 3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
> *505 424-1112*
> *www.positiveenergysolar.com* 
>
> *
> *
>
>  On 1/24/2013 1:38 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>
> I totally agree - old mods are usually not worth messing with at today's
> PV prices. In some cases it might be best to downsize the system and then
> AC couple some microinverters to cover the decrease in performance, or just
> replace the entire array if there are enough problems. There is a used
> market for smaller PV mods on Craigslist.
>
>  Back when I was installing Astropower 110W modules on single voltage
> Xantrex C40's, I never thought we'd be using anything but 12V nominal PV
> mods. Little did I know... Off-grid is really tough in these retrofit
> situations, but this applies to failed/broken mods on grid-tie systems as
> well. That's where I can make a good case for microinverters.
>
>   *Jason Szumlanski** *
>
> * Fafco Solar
> *
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:
>
>>  Hi Allan;
>>
>> I've been in the same conundrum lately.  I found that AEE and others have
>> 12 v modules (Solartech), but the price per watt is double or triple.  My
>> take is that somewhere around 200 to 400 watts, its more cost effective to
>> go to the GT modules with an MPPT controller.  Blue Sky makes the 1524, and
>> 3024 that can take up to 57 Voc, so those would work at still fairly low
>> cost.  Unfortunately many of the other low cost MPPT controllers won't work
>> with the 60 cell modules.  At some point, it may actually be cost effective
>> to just use 60 cell modules with non MPPT controllers, and just forget
>> about the extra 24 cells.  (I know that sounds crazy, but PV less than $1/
>> watt is crazy too)
>>
>> I'm trying to add modules to an existing array of 8 Siemens 12 v modules,
>> and it just doesn't work out, except with separate controllers.
>> Also, its amazing how much PV you can throw at an off grid project these
>> days for $10k.
>> It almost makes messing around with the old modules a waste of time.
>> Perhaps the solution might be to remove old arrays for customers wanting
>> to really up size, and then reuse the old modules for small systems?
>>
>> Ray
>>
>>
>> On 1/24/2013 12:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
>>
>>  Wrenches,
>> We have years of installing 36-cell (12V) and 72-cell (24V) modules for
>> battery-based customers. Most of our systems are 24V or 48V nominal. Over
>> the last few years, sources of conventionally-sized 72-cell modules have
>> dried up - as cells have increased in size, most modules and most newer
>> factory production lines have either gone to 60-cell (20V) modules, or 72
>> cells in 300+ watt ranges. It seems that the formerly common 72 cell, 24V
>> modules in the 150-190 watt range, which are well-suited to integrating
>> into existing systems, are no longer available.
>>
>> 60-cell modules in the common 220-250 watt range can't be added to an
>> existing system unless run through a dedicated MPPT charge controller that
>> can convert voltage, such as an FM, XW60, Classic or TriStar; the added
>> cost of any of these controllers cancels out the low prices of the modules.
>>
>> Who continues to manufacture 72-cell modules? Which distributors carry
>> them?
>> I am aware of three options - are there more?
>> - Sunpower makes one module in the 245 watt range that can be used
>> negative ground, but it's very high efficiency (and with high Voc/Vmp as
>> well) and very pricey;
>> - Sanyo/Panasonic has 225-240 watt modules, but also quite premium
>> and pricey;
>> - Ameresco bought the

Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Blue Sky Energy just came out with a MPPT controller for 60 cell modules called 
the 2512iX-HV. It can handle up to 270 Watts input/60 cells and 340 Watts input 
with 36 cell modules.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Jan 24, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Jay Peltz wrote:

Hi guys

I've buying the new 6" cell x 72 cell from Trina from a few suppliers. 
Big yea, but same 44voc  so it's an easy add to existing systems. 

A huge relief. 

Jay

Peltz power

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 24, 2013, at 12:11 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

> Hi Allan;
> 
> I've been in the same conundrum lately.  I found that AEE and others have 12 
> v modules (Solartech), but the price per watt is double or triple.  My take 
> is that somewhere around 200 to 400 watts, its more cost effective to go to 
> the GT modules with an MPPT controller.  Blue Sky makes the 1524, and 3024 
> that can take up to 57 Voc, so those would work at still fairly low cost.  
> Unfortunately many of the other low cost MPPT controllers won't work with the 
> 60 cell modules.  At some point, it may actually be cost effective to just 
> use 60 cell modules with non MPPT controllers, and just forget about the 
> extra 24 cells.  (I know that sounds crazy, but PV less than $1/ watt is 
> crazy too)
> 
> I'm trying to add modules to an existing array of 8 Siemens 12 v modules, and 
> it just doesn't work out, except with separate controllers. 
> Also, its amazing how much PV you can throw at an off grid project these days 
> for $10k.
> It almost makes messing around with the old modules a waste of time.
> Perhaps the solution might be to remove old arrays for customers wanting to 
> really up size, and then reuse the old modules for small systems?
> 
> Ray
> 
> On 1/24/2013 12:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
>> Wrenches,
>> We have years of installing 36-cell (12V) and 72-cell (24V) modules for 
>> battery-based customers. Most of our systems are 24V or 48V nominal. Over 
>> the last few years, sources of conventionally-sized 72-cell modules have 
>> dried up - as cells have increased in size, most modules and most newer 
>> factory production lines have either gone to 60-cell (20V) modules, or 72 
>> cells in 300+ watt ranges. It seems that the formerly common 72 cell, 24V 
>> modules in the 150-190 watt range, which are well-suited to integrating into 
>> existing systems, are no longer available.
>> 
>> 60-cell modules in the common 220-250 watt range can't be added to an 
>> existing system unless run through a dedicated MPPT charge controller that 
>> can convert voltage, such as an FM, XW60, Classic or TriStar; the added cost 
>> of any of these controllers cancels out the low prices of the modules.
>> 
>> Who continues to manufacture 72-cell modules? Which distributors carry them?
>> I am aware of three options - are there more?
>> - Sunpower makes one module in the 245 watt range that can be used 
>> negative ground, but it's very high efficiency (and with high Voc/Vmp as 
>> well) and very pricey;
>> - Sanyo/Panasonic has 225-240 watt modules, but also quite premium and 
>> pricey;
>> - Ameresco bought the rights to manufacture many former BP modules, and 
>> I think they make some. But we had to replace lots of failed BP modules in 
>> that size range, and are hesitant to use their technology, fearing that the 
>> problems may persist in the continued line.
>> 
>> Thank you for any discussion and recommendations.
>> Allan
>> -- 
>> Allan Sindelar
>> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
>> NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
>> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
>> Founder and Chief Technology Officer
>> Positive Energy, Inc.
>> 3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
>> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
>> 505 424-1112
>> www.positiveenergysolar.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query

[All Solar, Inc.]

Suntech 295's...  Biggin!
Thats about it!
We did get some 72 cell mods from  Oasis Montana (dealer)

We are in the same boat. 14 years of off grid installs!

Jeremy
All Solar
  - Original Message - 
  From: Allan Sindelar 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 12:35 PM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query


  Wrenches,
  We have years of installing 36-cell (12V) and 72-cell (24V) modules for 
battery-based customers. Most of our systems are 24V or 48V nominal. Over the 
last few years, sources of conventionally-sized 72-cell modules have dried up - 
as cells have increased in size, most modules and most newer factory production 
lines have either gone to 60-cell (20V) modules, or 72 cells in 300+ watt 
ranges. It seems that the formerly common 72 cell, 24V modules in the 150-190 
watt range, which are well-suited to integrating into existing systems, are no 
longer available.

  60-cell modules in the common 220-250 watt range can't be added to an 
existing system unless run through a dedicated MPPT charge controller that can 
convert voltage, such as an FM, XW60, Classic or TriStar; the added cost of any 
of these controllers cancels out the low prices of the modules.

  Who continues to manufacture 72-cell modules? Which distributors carry them?
  I am aware of three options - are there more?
  - Sunpower makes one module in the 245 watt range that can be used 
negative ground, but it's very high efficiency (and with high Voc/Vmp as well) 
and very pricey;
  - Sanyo/Panasonic has 225-240 watt modules, but also quite premium and 
pricey;
  - Ameresco bought the rights to manufacture many former BP modules, and I 
think they make some. But we had to replace lots of failed BP modules in that 
size range, and are hesitant to use their technology, fearing that the problems 
may persist in the continued line.

  Thank you for any discussion and recommendations.
  Allan

  -- 
  Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
  NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
  NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
  New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
  Founder and Chief Technology Officer
  Positive Energy, Inc.
  3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
  Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
  505 424-1112
  www.positiveenergysolar.com 







--


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Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query

[SunHarvest]

Upgrading to a versatile Midnite or Outback cc seems to me a better investment. 
Sometimes you can match newer 72 cells with older mods...For example, one new 
Canadian 280 (35.6Vmp, 44.2Voc) matches up nicely with 2 old Kyo 120's 
(33.8Vmp, 43Voc)

Eric
SunHarvest

- Original Message - 
  From: Jason Szumlanski 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 12:38 PM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query


  I totally agree - old mods are usually not worth messing with at today's PV 
prices. In some cases it might be best to downsize the system and then AC 
couple some microinverters to cover the decrease in performance, or just 
replace the entire array if there are enough problems. There is a used market 
for smaller PV mods on Craigslist. 


  Back when I was installing Astropower 110W modules on single voltage Xantrex 
C40's, I never thought we'd be using anything but 12V nominal PV mods. Little 
did I know... Off-grid is really tough in these retrofit situations, but this 
applies to failed/broken mods on grid-tie systems as well. That's where I can 
make a good case for microinverters.


  Jason Szumlanski 

  Fafco Solar






  On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

Hi Allan;

I've been in the same conundrum lately.  I found that AEE and others have 
12 v modules (Solartech), but the price per watt is double or triple.  My take 
is that somewhere around 200 to 400 watts, its more cost effective to go to the 
GT modules with an MPPT controller.  Blue Sky makes the 1524, and 3024 that can 
take up to 57 Voc, so those would work at still fairly low cost.  Unfortunately 
many of the other low cost MPPT controllers won't work with the 60 cell 
modules.  At some point, it may actually be cost effective to just use 60 cell 
modules with non MPPT controllers, and just forget about the extra 24 cells.  
(I know that sounds crazy, but PV less than $1/ watt is crazy too)

I'm trying to add modules to an existing array of 8 Siemens 12 v modules, 
and it just doesn't work out, except with separate controllers. 
Also, its amazing how much PV you can throw at an off grid project these 
days for $10k.
It almost makes messing around with the old modules a waste of time.
Perhaps the solution might be to remove old arrays for customers wanting to 
really up size, and then reuse the old modules for small systems?

Ray


On 1/24/2013 12:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

  Wrenches,
  We have years of installing 36-cell (12V) and 72-cell (24V) modules for 
battery-based customers. Most of our systems are 24V or 48V nominal. Over the 
last few years, sources of conventionally-sized 72-cell modules have dried up - 
as cells have increased in size, most modules and most newer factory production 
lines have either gone to 60-cell (20V) modules, or 72 cells in 300+ watt 
ranges. It seems that the formerly common 72 cell, 24V modules in the 150-190 
watt range, which are well-suited to integrating into existing systems, are no 
longer available.

  60-cell modules in the common 220-250 watt range can't be added to an 
existing system unless run through a dedicated MPPT charge controller that can 
convert voltage, such as an FM, XW60, Classic or TriStar; the added cost of any 
of these controllers cancels out the low prices of the modules.

  Who continues to manufacture 72-cell modules? Which distributors carry 
them?
  I am aware of three options - are there more?
  - Sunpower makes one module in the 245 watt range that can be used 
negative ground, but it's very high efficiency (and with high Voc/Vmp as well) 
and very pricey;
  - Sanyo/Panasonic has 225-240 watt modules, but also quite premium 
and pricey;
  - Ameresco bought the rights to manufacture many former BP modules, 
and I think they make some. But we had to replace lots of failed BP modules in 
that size range, and are hesitant to use their technology, fearing that the 
problems may persist in the continued line.

  Thank you for any discussion and recommendations.
  Allan

  -- 
  Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
  NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
  NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
  New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
  Founder and Chief Technology Officer
  Positive Energy, Inc.
  3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
  Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
  505 424-1112
  www.positiveenergysolar.com 











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Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Jason,
  How do you AC couple some microinverters to cover the decrease in
  performance in an off grid system, especially with older
  equipment, such as an SW4024?
  Thanks, Allan
  
  


Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
  NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com



 
  On 1/24/2013 1:38 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:


  I totally agree - old mods are usually not worth
messing with at today's PV prices. In some cases it might be
best to downsize the system and then AC couple some
microinverters to cover the decrease in performance, or just
replace the entire array if there are enough problems. There is
a used market for smaller PV mods on Craigslist. 

  

Back when I was installing Astropower 110W modules on
  single voltage Xantrex C40's, I never thought we'd be using
  anything but 12V nominal PV mods. Little did I know...
  Off-grid is really tough in these retrofit situations, but
  this applies to failed/broken mods on grid-tie systems as
  well. That's where I can make a good case for microinverters.
  


  

  Jason
Szumlanski 
  
Fafco Solar
  
  

  


  
  On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 3:11 PM,
Ray Walters 
wrote:

  
Hi Allan;
  
  I've been in the same conundrum lately.  I found
  that AEE and others have 12 v modules (Solartech),
  but the price per watt is double or triple.  My
  take is that somewhere around 200 to 400 watts,
  its more cost effective to go to the GT modules
  with an MPPT controller.  Blue Sky makes the 1524,
  and 3024 that can take up to 57 Voc, so those
  would work at still fairly low cost. 
  Unfortunately many of the other low cost MPPT
  controllers won't work with the 60 cell modules. 
  At some point, it may actually be cost effective
  to just use 60 cell modules with non MPPT
  controllers, and just forget about the extra 24
  cells.  (I know that sounds crazy, but PV less
  than $1/ watt is crazy too)
  
  I'm trying to add modules to an existing array of
  8 Siemens 12 v modules, and it just doesn't work
  out, except with separate controllers. 
  Also, its amazing how much PV you can throw at an
  off grid project these days for $10k.
  It almost makes messing around with the old
  modules a waste of time.
  Perhaps the solution might be to remove old arrays
  for customers wanting to really up size, and then
  reuse the old modules for small systems?
  
  Ray
  

  
  On 1/24/2013 12:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

  


  
 Wrenches,
  We have years of installing 36-cell (12V) and
  72-cell (24V) modules for battery-based
  customers. Most of our systems are 24V or 48V
  nominal. Over the last few years, sources of
  conventionally-sized 72-cell modules have
  dried up - as cells have increased in size,
  most modules and most newer factory production
  lines have either gone to 60-cell (20V)
  modules, or 72 cells in 300+ watt ranges. It
  seems that the formerly common 72 cell, 24V
  modules in the 150-190 watt range, which are
  well-suited to integra

Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query

[Jason Szumlanski]

I totally agree - old mods are usually not worth messing with at today's PV
prices. In some cases it might be best to downsize the system and then AC
couple some microinverters to cover the decrease in performance, or just
replace the entire array if there are enough problems. There is a used
market for smaller PV mods on Craigslist.

Back when I was installing Astropower 110W modules on single voltage
Xantrex C40's, I never thought we'd be using anything but 12V nominal PV
mods. Little did I know... Off-grid is really tough in these retrofit
situations, but this applies to failed/broken mods on grid-tie systems as
well. That's where I can make a good case for microinverters.

*Jason Szumlanski** *

* Fafco Solar
*


On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

>  Hi Allan;
>
> I've been in the same conundrum lately.  I found that AEE and others have
> 12 v modules (Solartech), but the price per watt is double or triple.  My
> take is that somewhere around 200 to 400 watts, its more cost effective to
> go to the GT modules with an MPPT controller.  Blue Sky makes the 1524, and
> 3024 that can take up to 57 Voc, so those would work at still fairly low
> cost.  Unfortunately many of the other low cost MPPT controllers won't work
> with the 60 cell modules.  At some point, it may actually be cost effective
> to just use 60 cell modules with non MPPT controllers, and just forget
> about the extra 24 cells.  (I know that sounds crazy, but PV less than $1/
> watt is crazy too)
>
> I'm trying to add modules to an existing array of 8 Siemens 12 v modules,
> and it just doesn't work out, except with separate controllers.
> Also, its amazing how much PV you can throw at an off grid project these
> days for $10k.
> It almost makes messing around with the old modules a waste of time.
> Perhaps the solution might be to remove old arrays for customers wanting
> to really up size, and then reuse the old modules for small systems?
>
> Ray
>
>
> On 1/24/2013 12:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
>
> Wrenches,
> We have years of installing 36-cell (12V) and 72-cell (24V) modules for
> battery-based customers. Most of our systems are 24V or 48V nominal. Over
> the last few years, sources of conventionally-sized 72-cell modules have
> dried up - as cells have increased in size, most modules and most newer
> factory production lines have either gone to 60-cell (20V) modules, or 72
> cells in 300+ watt ranges. It seems that the formerly common 72 cell, 24V
> modules in the 150-190 watt range, which are well-suited to integrating
> into existing systems, are no longer available.
>
> 60-cell modules in the common 220-250 watt range can't be added to an
> existing system unless run through a dedicated MPPT charge controller that
> can convert voltage, such as an FM, XW60, Classic or TriStar; the added
> cost of any of these controllers cancels out the low prices of the modules.
>
> Who continues to manufacture 72-cell modules? Which distributors carry
> them?
> I am aware of three options - are there more?
> - Sunpower makes one module in the 245 watt range that can be used
> negative ground, but it's very high efficiency (and with high Voc/Vmp as
> well) and very pricey;
> - Sanyo/Panasonic has 225-240 watt modules, but also quite premium and
> pricey;
> - Ameresco bought the rights to manufacture many former BP modules,
> and I think they make some. But we had to replace lots of failed BP modules
> in that size range, and are hesitant to use their technology, fearing that
> the problems may persist in the continued line.
>
> Thank you for any discussion and recommendations.
> Allan
> --
> *Allan Sindelar*
> *al...@positiveenergysolar.com* 
> NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder and Chief Technology Officer
> *Positive Energy, Inc.*
> 3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
> *505 424-1112*
> *www.positiveenergysolar.com* 
>
> *
> *
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query

[Jay Peltz]

Hi guys

I've buying the new 6" cell x 72 cell from Trina from a few suppliers. 
Big yea, but same 44voc  so it's an easy add to existing systems. 

A huge relief. 

Jay

Peltz power

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 24, 2013, at 12:11 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

> Hi Allan;
> 
> I've been in the same conundrum lately.  I found that AEE and others have 12 
> v modules (Solartech), but the price per watt is double or triple.  My take 
> is that somewhere around 200 to 400 watts, its more cost effective to go to 
> the GT modules with an MPPT controller.  Blue Sky makes the 1524, and 3024 
> that can take up to 57 Voc, so those would work at still fairly low cost.  
> Unfortunately many of the other low cost MPPT controllers won't work with the 
> 60 cell modules.  At some point, it may actually be cost effective to just 
> use 60 cell modules with non MPPT controllers, and just forget about the 
> extra 24 cells.  (I know that sounds crazy, but PV less than $1/ watt is 
> crazy too)
> 
> I'm trying to add modules to an existing array of 8 Siemens 12 v modules, and 
> it just doesn't work out, except with separate controllers. 
> Also, its amazing how much PV you can throw at an off grid project these days 
> for $10k.
> It almost makes messing around with the old modules a waste of time.
> Perhaps the solution might be to remove old arrays for customers wanting to 
> really up size, and then reuse the old modules for small systems?
> 
> Ray
> 
> On 1/24/2013 12:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
>> Wrenches,
>> We have years of installing 36-cell (12V) and 72-cell (24V) modules for 
>> battery-based customers. Most of our systems are 24V or 48V nominal. Over 
>> the last few years, sources of conventionally-sized 72-cell modules have 
>> dried up - as cells have increased in size, most modules and most newer 
>> factory production lines have either gone to 60-cell (20V) modules, or 72 
>> cells in 300+ watt ranges. It seems that the formerly common 72 cell, 24V 
>> modules in the 150-190 watt range, which are well-suited to integrating into 
>> existing systems, are no longer available.
>> 
>> 60-cell modules in the common 220-250 watt range can't be added to an 
>> existing system unless run through a dedicated MPPT charge controller that 
>> can convert voltage, such as an FM, XW60, Classic or TriStar; the added cost 
>> of any of these controllers cancels out the low prices of the modules.
>> 
>> Who continues to manufacture 72-cell modules? Which distributors carry them?
>> I am aware of three options - are there more?
>> - Sunpower makes one module in the 245 watt range that can be used 
>> negative ground, but it's very high efficiency (and with high Voc/Vmp as 
>> well) and very pricey;
>> - Sanyo/Panasonic has 225-240 watt modules, but also quite premium and 
>> pricey;
>> - Ameresco bought the rights to manufacture many former BP modules, and 
>> I think they make some. But we had to replace lots of failed BP modules in 
>> that size range, and are hesitant to use their technology, fearing that the 
>> problems may persist in the continued line.
>> 
>> Thank you for any discussion and recommendations.
>> Allan
>> -- 
>> Allan Sindelar
>> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
>> NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
>> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
>> Founder and Chief Technology Officer
>> Positive Energy, Inc.
>> 3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
>> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
>> 505 424-1112
>> www.positiveenergysolar.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query

[Ray Walters]

Hi Allan;

I've been in the same conundrum lately.  I found that AEE and others 
have 12 v modules (Solartech), but the price per watt is double or 
triple.  My take is that somewhere around 200 to 400 watts, its more 
cost effective to go to the GT modules with an MPPT controller.  Blue 
Sky makes the 1524, and 3024 that can take up to 57 Voc, so those would 
work at still fairly low cost. Unfortunately many of the other low cost 
MPPT controllers won't work with the 60 cell modules.  At some point, it 
may actually be cost effective to just use 60 cell modules with non MPPT 
controllers, and just forget about the extra 24 cells.  (I know that 
sounds crazy, but PV less than $1/ watt is crazy too)


I'm trying to add modules to an existing array of 8 Siemens 12 v 
modules, and it just doesn't work out, except with separate controllers.
Also, its amazing how much PV you can throw at an off grid project these 
days for $10k.

It almost makes messing around with the old modules a waste of time.
Perhaps the solution might be to remove old arrays for customers wanting 
to really up size, and then reuse the old modules for small systems?


Ray

On 1/24/2013 12:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

Wrenches,
We have years of installing 36-cell (12V) and 72-cell (24V) modules 
for battery-based customers. Most of our systems are 24V or 48V 
nominal. Over the last few years, sources of conventionally-sized 
72-cell modules have dried up - as cells have increased in size, most 
modules and most newer factory production lines have either gone to 
60-cell (20V) modules, or 72 cells in 300+ watt ranges. It seems that 
the formerly common 72 cell, 24V modules in the 150-190 watt range, 
which are well-suited to integrating into existing systems, are no 
longer available.


60-cell modules in the common 220-250 watt range can't be added to an 
existing system unless run through a dedicated MPPT charge controller 
that can convert voltage, such as an FM, XW60, Classic or TriStar; the 
added cost of any of these controllers cancels out the low prices of 
the modules.


Who continues to manufacture 72-cell modules? Which distributors carry 
them?

I am aware of three options - are there more?
- Sunpower makes one module in the 245 watt range that can be used 
negative ground, but it's very high efficiency (and with high Voc/Vmp 
as well) and very pricey;
- Sanyo/Panasonic has 225-240 watt modules, but also quite premium 
and pricey;
- Ameresco bought the rights to manufacture many former BP 
modules, and I think they make some. But we had to replace lots of 
failed BP modules in that size range, and are hesitant to use their 
technology, fearing that the problems may persist in the continued line.


Thank you for any discussion and recommendations.
Allan
--
*Allan Sindelar*
_Allan@positiveenergysolar.com_ 
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
*Positive Energy, Inc.*
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
*505 424-1112*
_www.positiveenergysolar.com_ 

*
*




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[RE-wrenches] Charge controller query

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Wrenches,
When adding a modern charge controller to an existing off grid
system as part of an array upgrade, we often have to mix charge
controllers and their widely differing control algorithms. A common
combination is to add a new array with a FM60 or Classic to an older
system with a C40 or a Solar Boost SB50. Typically, the new array is
larger than the original array, but not always.

How do you adjust controllers when the bulk/absorption/float
transitions vary widely? Typically we set to the same voltages,
figuring that the controllers will determine their own respective
dominance - that is, which unit drops out first in absorption), and
it should have little effect on finishing a charge cycle. But can
you describe (and defend) any particular ways of setting up
unmatched combinations, such as I have described? For example, the
C40 has a fixed two-hour absorption, and the FM and Classic have
minimum and maximum times (the FM just max, along with absorb end
amps). Typically the more expensive and more efficient controller
will be on the larger array. How would you set up this combination,
and other common situations?

Thank you in advance for the collective wisdom, as usual. 
Allan
-- 
  
  
  Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
  Installer
  NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
  New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
  Founder and Chief Technology Officer
  Positive Energy, Inc.
  3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
  Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
  505 424-1112
  www.positiveenergysolar.com
  
  
  
   
  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Equipment Rating vs. Terminal/Lug Rating

[August Goers]

Hi Chris,



Here are my thoughts on your questions/notes below. Please note that I'm in
no way an expert in this field, I've only had to deal with it from time to
time through our workings with various situations and AHJs.



1.   I believe terminal and equipment ratings can vary within one piece
of equipment. Even a typical breaker might have a 70°C rated terminal but
is only rated at 40°C max operating temperature. I would think that this is
the manufacturer's decision on what rating to apply to their overall
equipment - and it might very well be driven by a UL type test but I don't
know. I've called inverter manufacturers a few times to try to figure out
what their terminal and or equipment temperature ratings are. Most of the
time they don't know. More recently I've been told 75°C but wasn't given
any documentation to prove it. I just saw a recent SunPower branded
PowerOne inverter manual which stated it has 90°C terminal ratings.

2.   NEC 110.14(C) addresses this a bit. My understanding is that the
current standard for equipment rated over 100 A is 75°C (and 60 °C for less
than 100 A) but that older equipment, say 40 years + old, was 60°C. This is
what our inspectors in San Francisco have told me and seems to be
consistent to what I see on the equipment labels (we take digital photos of
equipment labels for each project) for existing equipment. Once again, this
is only a rough rule of thumb and I'm sure that there are other temp
ratings for certain types of equipment. For example, I'm looking at a
Murray LC008DF residential load center which states "Size wire only to 60°C
or 75°C ampacity limits.  Size wire in accordance with breaker markings and
wire bending space requirements." The breaker then in turn says "CU-AL
60/75°C WIRE."

3.   Good question.

4.   I guess that would be specified in the equipment manual or maybe
be some internal manufacturer documentation. Or maybe once again a
UL-driven type requirement?

5.   Most modern load centers, panel boards, disconnect switches that
I've seen are all 60/75 °C rated. I'm looking at the device label on a
Square D DU324 disconnect and it says "Lugs suitable for 75°C CU - AL
conductors."



Anyway, this might provide some info for you. Do you have a particular
issue in mind that you're trying to solve for?



Best, August



*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris Anderson
*Sent:* Thursday, January 24, 2013 6:52 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Equipment Rating vs. Terminal/Lug Rating



How to properly size conductors based on insulation and termination
temperature ratings is an often discussed topic among PV designers. Those
discussion have provided clarity and understanding of the issue but
determining equipment rating, as opposed to termination rating, is still
unclear. See below for questions and discussion.

According to Square D documentation on terminations (Bulletin No.
0110DB9901R2/02, March 2002):

The Underwriters Laboratories® General Information on Electrical Equipment
Directory states the following about terminations: “A 75 °C or 90 °C
temperature marking on a terminal (e.g., AL7, CU7AL, AL7CU or AL9, CU9AL,
AL9CU) does not in itself indicate that a 75 °C or 90 °C insulated wire can
be used unless the equipment in which the terminals are installed is marked
for 75 °C or 90 °C.”



Questions are as follows:

1. If a piece of equipment contains any individual components that are
rated for 75deg is it still possible to for the overall rating to be 90deg?
Presumably, relative location/distance of 75deg-rated components may allow
for sufficient heat dissipation between components.

2. If a piece of equipment does not have a temperature explicitly
marked on it's exterior is there an implied rating? 75deg? 60deg?

3. Are ratings determined by a specific UL test or are they
manufacturer specified?

4. Is there a specific distance of separation required between two
differently rated pieces of equipment and/or terminations? Certain
equipment manufacturers have stated that an extended terminal protruding
from a 75deg-rated component would allow for a 90deg-rated lug and 90deg
conductor sizing.

5. Square D documentation indicates that *all* 600 V equipment is
either 60 or 75deg-rated. Is this true? Referenced documentation is 11
years old. Perhaps this has changed?

1. Pertinent excerpt: For electrical equipment rated for 600 V and
less, terminations are typically rated at 60 °C, 75 °C or 60/75 °C. No
distribution or utilization equipment is listed and identified for the use
of 90 °C wire at its 90 °C ampacity.

Thanks for any input or advice,



-- 



Regards,



Chris Anderson + Ben Walter

Borrego Solar Systems

Lowell, MA  01851
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[RE-wrenches] 24V Module Query

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Wrenches,
We have years of installing 36-cell (12V) and 72-cell (24V) modules
for battery-based customers. Most of our systems are 24V or 48V
nominal. Over the last few years, sources of conventionally-sized
72-cell modules have dried up - as cells have increased in size,
most modules and most newer factory production lines have either
gone to 60-cell (20V) modules, or 72 cells in 300+ watt ranges. It
seems that the formerly common 72 cell, 24V modules in the 150-190
watt range, which are well-suited to integrating into existing
systems, are no longer available.

60-cell modules in the common 220-250 watt range can't be added to
an existing system unless run through a dedicated MPPT charge
controller that can convert voltage, such as an FM, XW60, Classic or
TriStar; the added cost of any of these controllers cancels out the
low prices of the modules.

Who continues to manufacture 72-cell modules? Which distributors
carry them?
    I am aware of three options - are there more?
    - Sunpower makes one module in the 245 watt range that can be
used negative ground, but it's very high efficiency (and with high
Voc/Vmp as well) and very pricey;
    - Sanyo/Panasonic has 225-240 watt modules, but also quite
premium and pricey;
    - Ameresco bought the rights to manufacture many former BP
modules, and I think they make some. But we had to replace lots of
failed BP modules in that size range, and are hesitant to use their
technology, fearing that the problems may persist in the continued
line.

Thank you for any discussion and recommendations.
Allan
-- 
  
  
  Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
  Installer
  NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
  New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
  Founder and Chief Technology Officer
  Positive Energy, Inc.
  3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
  Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
  505 424-1112
  www.positiveenergysolar.com
  
  
  
   
  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Bonding bushings?

[August Goers]

Jesse,

Any metallic raceway that has a GEC running through it needs bonding. So,
if you've got the Enphase DC-GEC running through it then, yes, it would
need bonding fittings. At least that's my take on it.

Check out NEC 250.64(E) towards the second half of the paragraph. 2011 NEC
has a nice clarification point and directs you to 250.92(B)(2) through
(B)(4).

Best,

August


August Goers

Luminalt Energy Corporation
1320 Potrero Avenue
San Francisco, CA 94110
m: 415.559.1525
o: 415.641.4000
aug...@luminalt.com

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jesse Dahl
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 8:45 AM
To: Wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bonding bushings?

If you are using micro inverters and terminating them in an AC combiner
panel, does the feed for the AC combiner panel (125A) need to have bonding
bushings for the ground wire?  In other words is this ground wire a
GEC/Equipment ground like might be used if running an inverter output to a
panel?  The raceway is already in and is EMT.

Thanks!

Jesse

Sent from my iPhone
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[RE-wrenches] Bonding bushings?

[Jesse Dahl]

If you are using micro inverters and terminating them in an AC combiner panel, 
does the feed for the AC combiner panel (125A) need to have bonding bushings 
for the ground wire?  In other words is this ground wire a GEC/Equipment ground 
like might be used if running an inverter output to a panel?  The raceway is 
already in and is EMT. 

Thanks!

Jesse

Sent from my iPhone
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[RE-wrenches] Equipment Rating vs. Terminal/Lug Rating

[Chris Anderson]

How to properly size conductors based on insulation and termination
temperature ratings is an often discussed topic among PV designers. Those
discussion have provided clarity and understanding of the issue but
determining equipment rating, as opposed to termination rating, is still
unclear. See below for questions and discussion.

According to Square D documentation on terminations (Bulletin No.
0110DB9901R2/02, March 2002):

The Underwriters Laboratories® General Information on Electrical Equipment
> Directory states the following about terminations: “A 75 °C or 90 °C
> temperature marking on a terminal (e.g., AL7, CU7AL, AL7CU or AL9, CU9AL,
> AL9CU) does not in itself indicate that a 75 °C or 90 °C insulated wire can
> be used unless the equipment in which the terminals are installed is marked
> for 75 °C or 90 °C.”


Questions are as follows:

   1. If a piece of equipment contains any individual components that are
   rated for 75deg is it still possible to for the overall rating to be 90deg?
   Presumably, relative location/distance of 75deg-rated components may allow
   for sufficient heat dissipation between components.
   2. If a piece of equipment does not have a temperature explicitly marked
   on it's exterior is there an implied rating? 75deg? 60deg?
   3. Are ratings determined by a specific UL test or are they manufacturer
   specified?
   4. Is there a specific distance of separation required between two
   differently rated pieces of equipment and/or terminations? Certain
   equipment manufacturers have stated that an extended terminal protruding
   from a 75deg-rated component would allow for a 90deg-rated lug and 90deg
   conductor sizing.
   5. Square D documentation indicates that *all* 600 V equipment is either
   60 or 75deg-rated. Is this true? Referenced documentation is 11 years old.
   Perhaps this has changed?
   1. Pertinent excerpt: For electrical equipment rated for 600 V and less,
  terminations are typically rated at 60 °C, 75 °C or 60/75 °C. No
  distribution or utilization equipment is listed and identified
for the use
  of 90 °C wire at its 90 °C ampacity.

Thanks for any input or advice,

-- 

Regards,

Chris Anderson + Ben Walter
Borrego Solar Systems
Lowell, MA  01851
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