Re: [RE-wrenches] high insolation value and inverter undersizing

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Nick,

You said "the microinverter only draws enough current..." Could you explain how 
this works? I primarily work with battery based systems and the charge 
controllers that perform current limiting do so by shunting the excess current 
as heat. How are you leaving current "in the module"?

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems





On Jan 28, 2013, at 4:35 PM, Nick Soleil wrote:

Hi John,

It's important to clarify that the "clipped" power does not turn into heat 
within the microinverter. The microinverter only draws enough current to 
achieve it's max output rating, and the remaining current is "left in the 
module", so to speak. So, the heat generated at peak times is the same, whether 
using a 260W module or a 280W module. 

Many string inverters actually work similarly. What's different for them, 
however, is their overall thermal situation. The primary thermal driver for a 
string inverter is the amount of heat generated by their electronics, and the 
ability of their "fans & fins" to expel that heat.

For example, a 5kW string inverter generates ~200W of heat at peak, and it has 
fans and fins sized accordingly.  But, the effectiveness of the fans and fins 
depends on the ambient temperature (and on elevation/air mass), and if your 
inverter was operating at max power during hot weather (which would require 
significant oversizing due to the modules' temperature derates), it could 
exceed the capability of the fans and fins. This would then require the 
inverter to ramp-down output.  (Actually, some string inverters can respond 
improperly--depending on whether their fan is continuous, load-controlled or 
thermally-controlled--and actually fry the electronics.)

But, the thermal environment of a microinverter is very different. 

The main thermal driver in our situation is actually the external environment, 
not the electronics. Regardless of sizing ratio, an M215 generates less than 10 
watts of heat at peak, whereas the heat radiated from the module at peak times 
will be substantially greater than that. Consequently, we've already 
over-engineered the microinverter for extreme heat management, and the thermal 
effects of sizing ratio are simply a drop in the bucket compared to the other 
factors.

For that reason, we don't put limits in our warranty with regard to sizing 
ratio (which contrasts with at least some string inverter warranties), and we 
would not expect to see any microinverter ramp-down behaviors driven by sizing 
ratio.




On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 11:06 AM, John Berdner  
wrote:
Jason:

 

Be careful of drawing false comparisons.  There is no free lunch.

Beyond the energy yield issues there are some reliability issues.

 

You should also consider that running an inverter flat out all the time will 
shorten it’s life (due to the Arrhenius effect).   
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrhenius_equation

 

Think of the inverter temperature in the same way you would the power output 
curve (the two are closely related).  Moving the whole power curve up “more on 
the shoulders” also moves the whole temperature curve up as well.

The average lifetime (all this stuff is only probabilities) was projected with 
certain assumptions about how many hours at what temperature.  As module sizes 
increase a given inverter will spend more time at a higher power level, i.e. 
runs hotter longer, which non-linearly reduces the life of the product.

 

Just my $0.02… With the high labor cost of replacement it might be better to 
undersize the module relative to the power electronics or vice versa.   This 
may or may not increase the installed system cost depending on the products you 
choose. Running everything flat out all the time is probably not the greatest 
idea. 

 

Best Regards,

 

John Berdner

General Manager, North America

 



 

SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.

3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA  (*Please note of our new address.)
T: 510.498.3200, X 747

M: 530.277.4894

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 5:30 AM


To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] high insolation value and inverter undersizing

 

I found the latest module "rightsizing" paper by Enphase pretty interesting. It 
does stand to reason that there are a lot of hours in the day where the 
inverter is producing less than rated power, so increasing the module size 
makes sense. Obviously there is an optimum point in every system where clipping 
exceeds gains, but that's virtually impossible to nail down due to so many 
factors being involved. I think the point would be that PV mods are coming down 
in price so much that "rightsizing" is basically equivalent to "upsizing," 
within reason, of course. Spending an extra 25% on PV might increase the 
installed system cost by 5-10%.

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar

 

On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf  wro

Re: [RE-wrenches] high insolation value and inverter undersizing

[David Brearley]

I assume the device just operates the module away its MPP. That would reduce 
its power output. 


On Jan 29, 2013, at 8:48 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
wrote:

> Nick,
> 
> You said "the microinverter only draws enough current..." Could you explain 
> how this works? I primarily work with battery based systems and the charge 
> controllers that perform current limiting do so by shunting the excess 
> current as heat. How are you leaving current "in the module"?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jan 28, 2013, at 4:35 PM, Nick Soleil wrote:
> 
> Hi John,
> 
> It's important to clarify that the "clipped" power does not turn into heat 
> within the microinverter. The microinverter only draws enough current to 
> achieve it's max output rating, and the remaining current is "left in the 
> module", so to speak. So, the heat generated at peak times is the same, 
> whether using a 260W module or a 280W module. 
> 
> Many string inverters actually work similarly. What's different for them, 
> however, is their overall thermal situation. The primary thermal driver for a 
> string inverter is the amount of heat generated by their electronics, and the 
> ability of their "fans & fins" to expel that heat.
> 
> For example, a 5kW string inverter generates ~200W of heat at peak, and it 
> has fans and fins sized accordingly.  But, the effectiveness of the fans and 
> fins depends on the ambient temperature (and on elevation/air mass), and if 
> your inverter was operating at max power during hot weather (which would 
> require significant oversizing due to the modules' temperature derates), it 
> could exceed the capability of the fans and fins. This would then require the 
> inverter to ramp-down output.  (Actually, some string inverters can respond 
> improperly--depending on whether their fan is continuous, load-controlled or 
> thermally-controlled--and actually fry the electronics.)
> 
> But, the thermal environment of a microinverter is very different. 
> 
> The main thermal driver in our situation is actually the external 
> environment, not the electronics. Regardless of sizing ratio, an M215 
> generates less than 10 watts of heat at peak, whereas the heat radiated from 
> the module at peak times will be substantially greater than that. 
> Consequently, we've already over-engineered the microinverter for extreme 
> heat management, and the thermal effects of sizing ratio are simply a drop in 
> the bucket compared to the other factors.
> 
> For that reason, we don't put limits in our warranty with regard to sizing 
> ratio (which contrasts with at least some string inverter warranties), and we 
> would not expect to see any microinverter ramp-down behaviors driven by 
> sizing ratio.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 11:06 AM, John Berdner  
> wrote:
> Jason:
> 
>  
> 
> Be careful of drawing false comparisons.  There is no free lunch.
> 
> Beyond the energy yield issues there are some reliability issues.
> 
>  
> 
> You should also consider that running an inverter flat out all the time will 
> shorten it’s life (due to the Arrhenius effect).   
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrhenius_equation
> 
>  
> 
> Think of the inverter temperature in the same way you would the power output 
> curve (the two are closely related).  Moving the whole power curve up “more 
> on the shoulders” also moves the whole temperature curve up as well.
> 
> The average lifetime (all this stuff is only probabilities) was projected 
> with certain assumptions about how many hours at what temperature.  As module 
> sizes increase a given inverter will spend more time at a higher power level, 
> i.e. runs hotter longer, which non-linearly reduces the life of the product.
> 
>  
> 
> Just my $0.02… With the high labor cost of replacement it might be better to 
> undersize the module relative to the power electronics or vice versa.   This 
> may or may not increase the installed system cost depending on the products 
> you choose. Running everything flat out all the time is probably not the 
> greatest idea. 
> 
>  
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
>  
> 
> John Berdner
> 
> General Manager, North America
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.
> 
> 3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA  (*Please note of our new 
> address.)
> T: 510.498.3200, X 747
> 
> M: 530.277.4894
> 
>  
> 
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason 
> Szumlanski
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 5:30 AM
> 
> 
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] high insolation value and inverter undersizing
> 
>  
> 
> I found the latest module "rightsizing" paper by Enphase pretty interesting. 
> It does stand to reason that there are a lot of hours in the day where the 
> inverter is producing less than rated power, so increasing the module size 
> makes sense. Obviously there is an optimum point in ev

Re: [RE-wrenches] high insolation value and inverter undersizing (John Berdner)

[Great Northern Solar]

Just to add another $.02: 

I agree with Mr. Berdner, wearing out the electronics is a significant cost in 
that scenario.

Energetically,
Christopher LaForge
Great Northern Solar
77480 Evergreen Road, Suite #1
Port Wing, WI 54865
715 774 3374

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[RE-wrenches] Dc Power Supply on Microinverter input

[Mark Frye]

Folks,

Anyone have an idea of what would happen if I connected a bench top DC 
power supply with adjustable voltage and current to the pv inputs of a 
microinverter that is also connected on the Ac side? Would something bad 
happen as the inverter tries to run it's mppt on the ps?


Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Dc Power Supply on Microinverter input

[John Berdner]

Mark:

Depends on the supply and the micro.
One or the other has to have isolation or bad things can happen.
Check with the manufacturers to see if the devices are isolated.
You could also use an isolation transformer ahead of the DC supply and be ok.
You might also need to float the ground on the supply (be careful).

Lastly the control loops in the mico and the supply probably won't play well 
together.
You can end up getting weird oscillations between the control loops in the MPPT 
and the CV/CI control of the supply.
You might need to add some resistance and typically some inductance between the 
supply and the inverter to get it to track right.

Best Regards,

John Berdner
General Manager, North America

SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.
3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA  (*Please note of our new address.)
T: 510.498.3200, X 747
M: 530.277.4894


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 11:32 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dc Power Supply on Microinverter input

Folks,

Anyone have an idea of what would happen if I connected a bench top DC power 
supply with adjustable voltage and current to the pv inputs of a microinverter 
that is also connected on the Ac side? Would something bad happen as the 
inverter tries to run it's mppt on the ps?

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Husqvarna 5500 and VFX3524 Compatibility question

[Greg Egan]

Todd, Dan & Ray and all,

Thanks for the answers on my question.  Sorry for my slowness getting back.

The generator has a 30 amp 240 V twist lock connection we're using for 
power to the inverter - first through a PSX 240 xfmr.  I've spoken to 
the customer about adjusting the charging amperage down and seeing if 
that makes a difference.  I also gave him an electric heater (120 v) 
that has a low 900W and high 1300 W setting.  I'm hoping that by adding 
the resistive load while battery charging the genny will be able to run 
with a larger charging load and he won't have to run it as long.


Normally I don't recommend adding electric heat to an off grid home but 
he only uses his genny in the winter.  In the spring he gets enough sun 
that the PV can stay ahead of the load until mid fall. Thankfully when I 
brought up this idea he said he'd be happy to have some extra heat - 
we're having a REAL winter this year.


I told him to call me if he still has problems and I'll come out (he's a 
ways out of town).  If I do I'll bring the Fluke 87 and see if I can 
learn anything from it.


Dan, that's the first I've heard of a Honda 3000i not working with an 
Outback inverter.  I hope it was a fluke (no pun intended). Anyone else 
had issues with the Honda i line of gensets and inverters?


Thanks again,
--
Untitled Document

Greg Egan


ph (907)457-4299
fx (907)457-4290
www.remotepowerinc.com 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] high insolation value and inverter undersizing

[boB]

On 1/29/2013 7:20 AM, David Brearley wrote:
I assume the device just operates the module away its MPP. That would 
reduce its power output.



That's exactly how it works.   Picture this...   When you disconnect the 
PV completely,
it is at its open circuit Voc voltage and there is no current or power 
coming from

the module.  So current limiting happens at a voltage somewhere between
Mpp V and Voc PV voltages.

boB







On Jan 29, 2013, at 8:48 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power 
Systems wrote:



Nick,

You said "the microinverter only draws enough current..." Could you 
explain how this works? I primarily work with battery based systems 
and the charge controllers that perform current limiting do so by 
shunting the excess current as heat. How are you leaving current "in 
the module"?


Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems





On Jan 28, 2013, at 4:35 PM, Nick Soleil wrote:

Hi John,

It's important to clarify that the "clipped" power does not turn into 
heat within the microinverter. The microinverter only draws enough 
current to achieve it's max output rating, and the remaining current 
is "left in the module", so to speak. So, the heat generated at peak 
times is the same, whether using a 260W module or a 280W module.


Many string inverters actually work similarly. What's different for 
them, however, is their overall thermal situation. The primary 
thermal driver for a string inverter is the amount of heat generated 
by their electronics, and the ability of their "fans & fins" to expel 
that heat.


For example, a 5kW string inverter generates ~200W of heat at peak, 
and it has fans and fins sized accordingly.  But, the effectiveness 
of the fans and fins depends on the ambient temperature (and on 
elevation/air mass), and if your inverter was operating at max power 
during hot weather (which would require significant oversizing due to 
the modules' temperature derates), it could exceed the capability of 
the fans and fins. This would then require the inverter to ramp-down 
output.  (Actually, some string inverters can respond 
improperly--depending on whether their fan is continuous, 
load-controlled or thermally-controlled--and actually fry the 
electronics.)


But, the thermal environment of a microinverter is very different.

The main thermal driver in our situation is actually the external 
environment, not the electronics. Regardless of sizing ratio, an M215 
generates less than 10 watts of heat at peak, whereas the heat 
radiated from the module at peak times will be substantially greater 
than that. Consequently, we've already over-engineered the 
microinverter for extreme heat management, and the thermal effects of 
sizing ratio are simply a drop in the bucket compared to the other 
factors.


For that reason, we don't put limits in our warranty with regard to 
sizing ratio (which contrasts with at least some string inverter 
warranties), and we would not expect to see any microinverter 
ramp-down behaviors driven by sizing ratio.





On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 11:06 AM, John Berdner 
mailto:john.berd...@solaredge.com>> wrote:


Jason:

Be careful of drawing false comparisons. There is no free lunch.

Beyond the energy yield issues there are some reliability issues.

You should also consider that running an inverter flat out all
the time will shorten it's life (due to the Arrhenius effect).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrhenius_equation

Think of the inverter temperature in the same way you would the
power output curve (the two are closely related).  Moving the
whole power curve up "more on the shoulders" also moves the whole
temperature curve up as well.

The average lifetime (all this stuff is only probabilities) was
projected with certain assumptions about how many hours at what
temperature.  As module sizes increase a given inverter will
spend more time at a higher power level, i.e. runs hotter longer,
which non-linearly reduces the life of the product.

Just my $0.02... With the high labor cost of replacement it might
be better to undersize the module relative to the power
electronics or vice versa.   This may or may not increase the
installed system cost depending on the products you choose.
Running everything flat out all the time is probably not the
greatest idea.

Best Regards,

John Berdner

General Manager, North America

SmallBannerPictEngnew

SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.

3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA */(*Please note of
our new address.)/*
T: 510.498.3200, X 747 

M: 530.277.4894 

*From:*re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org

[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
] *On Behalf Of
*Jason Szumlanski
*Sent:* Monday, January 28, 2013 5:30 AM


*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:*

Re: [RE-wrenches] high insolation value and inverter undersizing (John Berdner)

[Chris Mason]

The idea of the electronics "wearing out"is a strange one. The inverters
are only at full capacity for a small amount of the time, at peak hours
which is only 2 to 4 hours a day, and only for part of that time if you
have clouds, and who doesn't?
Pushing them a little harder should not "wear them out". So one question
would be, what is the rated duty cycle of the inverters?

Let's remember, we are not proposing to increase the operating voltage,
just to provide more current when needed. It's the inverter that chooses to
use the available current.


On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 2:21 PM, Great Northern Solar
wrote:

> Just to add another $.02:
>
> I agree with Mr. Berdner, wearing out the electronics is a significant
> cost in that scenario.
>
> Energetically,
> Christopher LaForge
> Great Northern Solar
> 77480 Evergreen Road, Suite #1
> Port Wing, WI 54865
> 715 774 3374
>
>
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-- 
Chris Mason
President, Comet Systems Ltd
www.cometenergysystems.com
Cell: 264.235.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Husqvarna 5500 and VFX3524 Compatibility question

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
This is going back several years...
  
  The Outback VFX series lacks the tight input current regulation of
  the SW series, so the max AC amps in is really just a suggestion.
  In many cases (and especially with these small generators) we want
  to set the max amps in as high as possible to minimize charging
  time and maximize C/rate. Yet a surge load can momentarily exceed
  the max amps setting. 
  
  I have observed that the Honda inverter/generators have a quite
  sensitive AC output breaker, that will sometimes trip if a surge
  load (such as a refrigerator) comes on during a charge cycle set
  close to the generator's capacity. This incident was specific to a
  Honda 3000i. In contrast, Yamaha's EF3000iSE will lug when
  overloaded - not good for the generator, but also not likely to
  trip the output breaker.
  
  This is a different issue than was being discussed, but fits your
  question.
  Allan
  
  


Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
  NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com



 
  On 1/29/2013 3:42 PM, Greg Egan wrote:


  
  
  Dan, that's the first I've heard of a Honda 3000i not working with
  an Outback inverter.  I hope it was a fluke (no pun intended). 
  Anyone else had issues with the Honda i line of gensets and
  inverters?
  
  Thanks again,
  -- 
  

Untitled Document

 Greg Egan
  ph (907)457-4299
  fx (907)457-4290
  www.remotepowerinc.com

  
  
  
  
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[RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[toddcory]

wrenches,


i am working on a design for an off grid camp. they need a new generator as the 
one they have is a total pos. 
i am interested in suggestions for a commercial grade, 10 to 15 kW propane 
fueled unit. are kohler and onan still the best thing going or am i living in 
the past?
thanks,


todd


Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.


Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[Jeremy Rodriguez- All Solar Inc.]

Check out Gillette Generators
Made in Indiana
Jeremy
All Solar
Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand!

-Original Message-
From: toddc...@finestplanet.com
Sender: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgDate: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 
19:39:43 
To: RE-wrenches
Reply-To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Husqvarna 5500 and VFX3524 Compatibility question

[William Miller]

Allan:

Could it be that the SW systems are protecting the generator with Generator 
Support, and the Outback inverters are not?


William Miller



At 07:18 PM 1/29/2013, you wrote:

This is going back several years...

The Outback VFX series lacks the tight input current regulation of the SW 
series, so the max AC amps in is really just a suggestion. In many cases 
(and especially with these small generators) we want to set the max amps 
in as high as possible to minimize charging time and maximize C/rate. Yet 
a surge load can momentarily exceed the max amps setting.


I have observed that the Honda inverter/generators have a quite sensitive 
AC output breaker, that will sometimes trip if a surge load (such as a 
refrigerator) comes on during a charge cycle set close to the generator's 
capacity. This incident was specific to a Honda 3000i. In contrast, 
Yamaha's EF3000iSE will lug when overloaded - not good for the generator, 
but also not likely to trip the output breaker.


This is a different issue than was being discussed, but fits your question.
Allan
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[Ray Walters]

Those look interesting, especially the 20 Kw unit that is 1800 rpm.  
How's auto start, is it two wire?
Does it have a no load draw for its electronics like the other newer 
standby generators?

And finally does the warranty still apply for off grid use?

Thanks,

Ray Walters


What On 1/29/2013 9:22 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez- All Solar Inc. wrote:

Check out Gillette Generators
Made in Indiana
Jeremy
All Solar
Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand!

-Original Message-
From: toddc...@finestplanet.com
Sender: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgDate: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 19:39:43
To: RE-wrenches
Reply-To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[Ray Walters]

I just found Generac's Off grid model 6 Kw.  I know I've heard nothing 
but $%& about Generac, but this unit appears to actually be designed 
specifically for off grid, and has a special oil cooling system and  
runs at 2600 rpm.  Anybody dare try one?


Ray Walters
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