Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator Controlled Mini Grid

[Carl Emerson]

Chris,

 

I just wanted to say thanks for coming onto the list and giving more detail
of what you have achieved. I have long believed that with a little more
understanding and thought, PV and a diesel (or gas) derived grid will become
common place, and will eliminate the need for a battery bank on many
systems.

 

Cheers,

 

Carl Emerson.

 

 

 

 

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator Controlled Mini Grid

 

I am connecting a Kohler 12RES to my house, the roof has 3.1KW of PV
connected to a SB3000.

I thought we would have problems so we all knew to turn of the solar before
turning on the generator. One day, we forgot, and it all worked. Since that
I have left the solar on each time we ran the generator. As we are in a
small island, power outages are common.

The Kohler has a problem I cannot get to the bottom of and I'm going to pull
a Generac from inventory and install it, so I will find out if that also
works. My home and office is a test lab, I'll try anything there.

 

On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 8:44 AM, Drake
 wrote:

Chris,

It sounds like you are creating a generator supplied mini grid, if I
understand correctly,  My reading is that your generator is creating the AC
voltage, and the inverter is synchronizing with it, allowing power to be fed
into the system from a PV source. 

This approach could represent a major innovation in solar industry.  I
remember a decade or so ago when it was proposed, on this list, that battery
based inverters could be backfed to charge batteries, and someone tried it.
It worked.  Today AC coupling is standard operating procedure.  

Up to that time, it was only understood that to connect an AC source to the
output of a battery based inverter could damage it.  Maybe the next step is
to AC couple to generator supplied sub panels and allow PV usage during
power outages. 

What inverter and generator are you using?  How many Watts of PV are
connected?

Thank you,

Drake 




At 02:04 PM 2/10/2013, you wrote:



I have a generator and PV system that just works together, despite all the
dire predictions that it won't. from my experience of PV and generators (I
am also a generator tech), the biggest issue is the AVR board and how it
responds to back fed voltage, and the generator controller's over voltage
settings.
I think that it would probably on only require a reprogrammed inverter to
make this work as follows.
The AVR produces excitation voltage to vary the strength of the rotor field
and therefore the induced voltage in the stator. When the PV system back
feeds the generator, the excitation level is reduced to control the voltage.
When there is no load, the inverter keeps raising the voltage to attempt to
push the current to the grid and at some point the generator trips out on
overvoltage. 

 If the inverter was programmed to reduce the production of power in
response to the rise in voltage, it would sync pretty nicely with the
generator. However, this would likely violate the IEEE parameters for a grid
tied inverter. SMA has off-grid mode, I suspect that is the best solution.

In a Sunny Island system, as I understand it, the Sunny Island caries the
frequency to communicate to the inverter to reduce the current output. That
avoid the problem of the inverter raising the voltage.




On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 2:45 PM, Drake <

drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote:

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for the Eigg video.  What a great place.

I didn't see evidence of any AC coupling of inverter produced AC to a
generator produced mini grid.  I understand this is being done in a homebrew
manner by some.

The current wisdom on the issue is that the less the PV contribution to the
generator supplied grid is, the easier.  It would seem that if a grid tie
inverter output could be regulated, using Sunny Island type controls, it
should be possible to have a small inverter generator create a mini grid
that could be fed by PV.

A system featuring this type of technology was linked in a posting on this
list some years ago, The link seems dead now.  In that case a large
generator was feeding a number of houses, and PV was fed into the system.

The reason for this interest is that battery backup systems are much more
expensive than generators.  We need to find a way to utilize PV arrays
during outages without the expense of battery backup systems.

Drake






At 07:42 PM 2/8/2013, you wrote:

Hi Drake,

SMA has very good solutions for this. Does this out of the box without a
bunch of custom control systems. I have put a few systems in like this, but
the renewables not yet online (generator / battery now). If you google Isle
of Eig you will find some info on what they have done there.

http://islandsgoinggreen.org/about/eigg-electric/

Kevin

-Original Message-

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org

[ 
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Drake

Sent: Febr

[RE-wrenches] Mini Grid Controlled Generator (Was: Generator Controlled Mini Grid)

[Mick Abraham]

This is an interesting thread, Wrenches~

May I suggest looking through the opposite end of the telescope? I hasten
to add that I have not had suitable clients to try this suggestion, but:

Instead of using a "synchronous wound" generator (to which grid tie
inverters >might< sync), consider using battery based inverters to
establish the AC parameters, then match in an engine generator which is
intended for grid tie.

Grid-tie engine generators tend to be found in the "combined heat and
power" world which includes jolly features such as heat reclamation and
long life engines. The Marathon Ecopower is worth a look and also the
Freewatt system from ECR...and maybe there are others these days as I
haven't checked up on this for years now. Scaling these "cogeneration"
machines down to modest residential size wattages has been a major hangup,
it seems.

One would need a good way to protect the battery from overcharge, as this
is "AC Coupling" with various Murphy possibilities.

The only other obstacle would be political. One would need to convince the
"grid tie" generator guys to allow use of their machine in a "synthetic
grid" installation. They may be busy enough without having to think about
AC coupling into a battery based inverter system.

Intrepid researchers are encouraged to report back so we can all learn.

Jolliness,

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675
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[RE-wrenches] Seaward Solarlink

[Kirk Herander]

Hello,

 

Can anyone provide user feedback on the Seaward PV test/commissioning
equipment? I'm thinking of making the $2K investment in their Solarlink kit.
Thanks.

 

Kirk Herander

VT Solar, LLC

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM Certified Inaugural Certificant

NYSERDA-eligible Installer

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC wire size

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
John (and other Wrenches),
  I read with great interest this post about Sunny Island breaker
  size. We are about to install a large semi-off grid system for a
  wealthy and eccentric customer. The system has 17kW of PV, and
  four SI5048 inverter/chargers, along with an Outback Radian
  serving as an inverter only to some separate protected circuits.
  The system has utility backup power available as well as a backup
  30kW generator, but for a complicated reason the system can't be
  set to feed back into the grid; the SIs' sell function will be
  disabled.
  
  The four SIs are set up as a pair on each 120V phase, as SMA
  allows. After consultation with SMA tech support, I have designed
  each SI to be on a 125A dc breaker. This is done to keep the total
  protected ampacity of the dc battery cabling and bussing to 850
  amps (125 A x 4 = 500 A, plus 175 A x 2 for the Radian, all
  passing through a common 1,000 A shunt to allow accurate SOC
  metering). It's hard enough to address battery cabling and
  shunting with 850 amps; with 175 A dc breakers the total would be
  1,050 amps, and with 250 A dc breakers the total would be 1,350
  amps. 
  
  Given that the loads supplied are residential, primarily
  electronic and resistive, and thus few if any large surges, and
  given that the inverters on each phase are paralleled, how much
  should I worry about the 125a dc breaker size? Are there SI
  programming settings that I should know about to better protect
  against nuisance tripping?
  
  Thank you,
  Allan
  
  


Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
  NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com


  
  On 2/4/2013 1:29 PM, John Berdner wrote:


  Ryan:
Not sure what is in the manual now but...The lugs in the SI 5048U are dual 2/0.

We had to use parallel AWG #1 because we kind of painted ourselves into a corner.
The breaker in the SI ended up being 250 Amps, the conduit fitting was only 1.5" and the wire bending space was too small for a 3/0.
The only way to get enough Ampacity in a 1.5" conduit and that wire bending space was to go with dual #1's.

The 250 Amp breaker was used just to get enough current for the very short duration surges without tripping the breaker (12kW per SI).
If not for this a 200 A breaker would have been fine.

Note that the actual full power ampacity required for normal operation is 5kW @ 40 Vdc = 125 Amps continuous.
It is the high surge loads that require more current.
I run mine with a single 2/0 and we have never even come close to hitting full power.
Worst case current is typically while charging not when inverting and I set the current limit so that I do not exceed ampacity of 2/0.
In my experience it takes >= 14kW generator to drive a pair of SI's to full power while charging

Best Regards,

John Berdner
General Manager, North America
SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.
3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA  (*Please note of our new address.)
T: 510.498.3200, X 747
M: 530.277.4894



  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Seaward Solarlink

[Bill Hoffer]

Kirk

Good to check out, it is a fair amount of money, but being able to safely
do Isc on a full series string, megging, grounding continuity and DC power,
it is a handy tool to have.
I have been using one for over a year now and have been very happy with
it.  It is relatively quick to use once you get used to it and gives me a
lot of confidence in the final install knowing that the ground continuity
is sound, strings are in good shape ( no bad modules or connections ) and
the array has been safely meg tested ( shorted leads vs , - to Ground and +
to ground).  Make sure you get the PV150 with extra memory and RF
capability with the 200R irradiance and cell temp meter.  Clamp on meter is
good to, with the PV T leads attached will calculate DC power into
Inverter.

I actually like their single phase Solar Power meter too , since it will do
kW AC, makes short work of doing Inverter performance validation.  It also
does PF , Harmonics and will detect phase order for a 3 phase motor.
Pretty nice, seems most power meters are in the $6k range and start at 3
phase, so for $500 bucks I think it is a good value.

Keep in mind that the Seaward is designed for European installs where they
usually have MC4 connectors at each inverter location, so the PV connectors
supplied are MC4 and Sunclips.  I have adapted the sunclips to Banana stlye
connectors so I can use standard off the shelf 20 amp 1000 VDC test leads
and banana clip extensions.  Easy to also use MC4 adapters to any other
standard connectors.  I wish we used MC4's to the inverters, it would speed
up commissioning alot!  Sometimes it is a challenge to adapt combiners or
inverter disconnects to make a spot to use as a test lead when there is no
where to clamp on.  Hopefully as commissioning of larger installs becomes
commoner we will see those manufacturers making a test spot more accessible!

Also beware that the Megger only really works for PV Strings and if you
need to meg wire or motors you will need a standard $500 Megger, I like the
Fluke 1587 because it has other common meter funtions.  Frankly I do not
like megging a PV string using a megger, to me the Seaward is a lot faster
and gives me more useful information all at once ( Voc Isc, Insulation
resistance, irradiance, Cell temp).

I also do training in commissioning testing through Solar Energy
International ( PV351lab)  that allows you to use all the advanced tools
available for commissioning and troubleshooting on live systems in their
lab yard.  Well worth it to get a chance to play with the tools before you
put hard cash down on it.  I also consult independently to train
installation crews in the operation of the Seaward, so you can contact me
off list if you wish to discuss that.


I would not do a larger commercial or utility scale project without the
PV150 as a minimum commissioning tool.  Curve tracing Thermal cameras are
overkill unless you have module failures to track down or Bankability
commissioning requirements for them.  Often they are much more dependent on
conditions than the preliminary Seaward tests.

Highly recommend Seaward as a company and their tool, Great support and
product! Hukseflux recently released a similar tool that just came out for
a little less, but I have not had a chance to evaluate it yet or have I
heard from anyone using it yet.

Good Luck

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Kirk Herander  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> ** **
>
> Can anyone provide user feedback on the Seaward PV test/commissioning
> equipment? I’m thinking of making the $2K investment in their Solarlink
> kit. Thanks.
>
> ** **
>
> Kirk Herander
>
> VT Solar, LLC
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> NABCEPTM Certified Inaugural Certificant
>
> NYSERDA-eligible Installer
>
> VT RE Incentive Program Partner
>
> 802.863.1202
>
> ** **
>
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> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
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-- 
Bill Hoffer PE
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
2504 Columbia Ave NW
East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941
bhof...@sunergyengineeringservices.com Cell:(509)679-6165
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Seaward Solarlink

[Chris Mason]

Yep, I bought one for testing modules and installations. The kit is
designed for European installations where the connection to the inverter is
via MC4 or Sunlink connectors. You can disconnect the inverter, connect the
Seaward, and test the system. Similarly the strings are plugged into the
bottom of the combiner, so you can test each of the strings quickly.

The NEC method requires hard wired connections and conduit, so there is
nowhere to connect the test set. I have suggested Seaward provide 1000V
rated alligators clips so we can test the strings at the fuseholder. I
bought some Fluke test leads with the intention of putting MC4 connectors
on them as an adapter, have not done that yet as I got to like them on my
Fluke!

For string testing, we use a long lead and test at each end of the string
instead of at the combiner.

The set is very useful for testing modules. We have a shipment of used
modules and I wanted to test every unit prior to installation. That is very
quick to do.
The ability measure the irradiance and temperatures and record that with
the module performance to a dataset is useful, and one way to stand out
from the crowd. It makes commissioning very professional. I wish we could
input the bar code at the same time.
The Solar Survey 200R irradiance meter is also a very useful temperature
logger for testing solar thermal installations and for checking module
temperatures.

My only gripe, other than the connection issue, is with module performance.
I really wanted the system to be able to give me the module rating. I would
like to download the data and see the actual module performance, adjusted
for irradiance and ambient/module temperature. As it is, I get the Voc and
Isc.
Nice piece of kit, very useful,  great way to test for ground faults,
ground resistance, Voc and Isc, very quickly and to record the results to
your computer. I think in time we will be required to do this for
certification as the British are.







On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 5:25 PM, Kirk Herander  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> ** **
>
> Can anyone provide user feedback on the Seaward PV test/commissioning
> equipment? I’m thinking of making the $2K investment in their Solarlink
> kit. Thanks.
>
> ** **
>
> Kirk Herander
>
> VT Solar, LLC
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> NABCEPTM Certified Inaugural Certificant
>
> NYSERDA-eligible Installer
>
> VT RE Incentive Program Partner
>
> 802.863.1202
>
> ** **
>
> ___
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>
> Options & settings:
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>


-- 
Chris Mason
President, Comet Systems Ltd
www.cometenergysystems.com
Cell: 264.235.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Seaward Solarlink

[Kirk Herander]

Thanks Bill. It was your excellent HP article which turned me on to Seaward
products, as applied to full-blown evaluation. I am doing larger and more
commercial arrays now and this testing is a logical step up in professional
commissioning. Sure beats the basics using my old Fluke. Now the hand-held
IR thermal imager, at $6K, is a little harder to justify.

 

Kirk Herander

VT Solar, LLC

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM Certified Inaugural Certificant

NYSERDA-eligible Installer

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Hoffer
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 5:03 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Seaward Solarlink

 

Kirk

Good to check out, it is a fair amount of money, but being able to safely do
Isc on a full series string, megging, grounding continuity and DC power, it
is a handy tool to have.  
I have been using one for over a year now and have been very happy with it.
It is relatively quick to use once you get used to it and gives me a lot of
confidence in the final install knowing that the ground continuity is sound,
strings are in good shape ( no bad modules or connections ) and the array
has been safely meg tested ( shorted leads vs , - to Ground and + to
ground).  Make sure you get the PV150 with extra memory and RF capability
with the 200R irradiance and cell temp meter.  Clamp on meter is good to,
with the PV T leads attached will calculate DC power into Inverter. 

I actually like their single phase Solar Power meter too , since it will do
kW AC, makes short work of doing Inverter performance validation.  It also
does PF , Harmonics and will detect phase order for a 3 phase motor.  Pretty
nice, seems most power meters are in the $6k range and start at 3 phase, so
for $500 bucks I think it is a good value.

Keep in mind that the Seaward is designed for European installs where they
usually have MC4 connectors at each inverter location, so the PV connectors
supplied are MC4 and Sunclips.  I have adapted the sunclips to Banana stlye
connectors so I can use standard off the shelf 20 amp 1000 VDC test leads
and banana clip extensions.  Easy to also use MC4 adapters to any other
standard connectors.  I wish we used MC4's to the inverters, it would speed
up commissioning alot!  Sometimes it is a challenge to adapt combiners or
inverter disconnects to make a spot to use as a test lead when there is no
where to clamp on.  Hopefully as commissioning of larger installs becomes
commoner we will see those manufacturers making a test spot more accessible!

Also beware that the Megger only really works for PV Strings and if you need
to meg wire or motors you will need a standard $500 Megger, I like the Fluke
1587 because it has other common meter funtions.  Frankly I do not like
megging a PV string using a megger, to me the Seaward is a lot faster and
gives me more useful information all at once ( Voc Isc, Insulation
resistance, irradiance, Cell temp).

I also do training in commissioning testing through Solar Energy
International ( PV351lab)  that allows you to use all the advanced tools
available for commissioning and troubleshooting on live systems in their lab
yard.  Well worth it to get a chance to play with the tools before you put
hard cash down on it.  I also consult independently to train installation
crews in the operation of the Seaward, so you can contact me off list if you
wish to discuss that.


I would not do a larger commercial or utility scale project without the
PV150 as a minimum commissioning tool.  Curve tracing Thermal cameras are
overkill unless you have module failures to track down or Bankability
commissioning requirements for them.  Often they are much more dependent on
conditions than the preliminary Seaward tests.

Highly recommend Seaward as a company and their tool, Great support and
product! Hukseflux recently released a similar tool that just came out for a
little less, but I have not had a chance to evaluate it yet or have I heard
from anyone using it yet.

Good Luck

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Kirk Herander  wrote:

Hello,

 

Can anyone provide user feedback on the Seaward PV test/commissioning
equipment? I'm thinking of making the $2K investment in their Solarlink kit.
Thanks.

 

Kirk Herander

VT Solar, LLC

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM Certified Inaugural Certificant

NYSERDA-eligible Installer

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202

 


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-- 
Bill Hoffer PE
NABCEP Certified Sola

Re: [RE-wrenches] Seaward Solarlink

[Kirk Herander]

PS - What's of battery life like in the Seaward products, in particular when
using the wireless irradiance meter? I have a Fluke 233 w/ detachable remote
display. It has a range of about 30 ft. Trouble is every time a pull it out
after a couple weeks of being turned off the batteries are always dead..

 

Kirk Herander

VT Solar, LLC

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM Certified Inaugural Certificant

NYSERDA-eligible Installer

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk
Herander
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 5:39 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Seaward Solarlink

 

Thanks Bill. It was your excellent HP article which turned me on to Seaward
products, as applied to full-blown evaluation. I am doing larger and more
commercial arrays now and this testing is a logical step up in professional
commissioning. Sure beats the basics using my old Fluke. Now the hand-held
IR thermal imager, at $6K, is a little harder to justify.

 

Kirk Herander

VT Solar, LLC

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM Certified Inaugural Certificant

NYSERDA-eligible Installer

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Hoffer
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 5:03 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Seaward Solarlink

 

Kirk

Good to check out, it is a fair amount of money, but being able to safely do
Isc on a full series string, megging, grounding continuity and DC power, it
is a handy tool to have.  
I have been using one for over a year now and have been very happy with it.
It is relatively quick to use once you get used to it and gives me a lot of
confidence in the final install knowing that the ground continuity is sound,
strings are in good shape ( no bad modules or connections ) and the array
has been safely meg tested ( shorted leads vs , - to Ground and + to
ground).  Make sure you get the PV150 with extra memory and RF capability
with the 200R irradiance and cell temp meter.  Clamp on meter is good to,
with the PV T leads attached will calculate DC power into Inverter. 

I actually like their single phase Solar Power meter too , since it will do
kW AC, makes short work of doing Inverter performance validation.  It also
does PF , Harmonics and will detect phase order for a 3 phase motor.  Pretty
nice, seems most power meters are in the $6k range and start at 3 phase, so
for $500 bucks I think it is a good value.

Keep in mind that the Seaward is designed for European installs where they
usually have MC4 connectors at each inverter location, so the PV connectors
supplied are MC4 and Sunclips.  I have adapted the sunclips to Banana stlye
connectors so I can use standard off the shelf 20 amp 1000 VDC test leads
and banana clip extensions.  Easy to also use MC4 adapters to any other
standard connectors.  I wish we used MC4's to the inverters, it would speed
up commissioning alot!  Sometimes it is a challenge to adapt combiners or
inverter disconnects to make a spot to use as a test lead when there is no
where to clamp on.  Hopefully as commissioning of larger installs becomes
commoner we will see those manufacturers making a test spot more accessible!

Also beware that the Megger only really works for PV Strings and if you need
to meg wire or motors you will need a standard $500 Megger, I like the Fluke
1587 because it has other common meter funtions.  Frankly I do not like
megging a PV string using a megger, to me the Seaward is a lot faster and
gives me more useful information all at once ( Voc Isc, Insulation
resistance, irradiance, Cell temp).

I also do training in commissioning testing through Solar Energy
International ( PV351lab)  that allows you to use all the advanced tools
available for commissioning and troubleshooting on live systems in their lab
yard.  Well worth it to get a chance to play with the tools before you put
hard cash down on it.  I also consult independently to train installation
crews in the operation of the Seaward, so you can contact me off list if you
wish to discuss that.


I would not do a larger commercial or utility scale project without the
PV150 as a minimum commissioning tool.  Curve tracing Thermal cameras are
overkill unless you have module failures to track down or Bankability
commissioning requirements for them.  Often they are much more dependent on
conditions than the preliminary Seaward tests.

Highly recommend Seaward as a company and their tool, Great support and
product! Hukseflux recently released a similar tool that just came out for a
little less, but I have not had a chance to evaluate it yet or have I heard
from anyone using it yet.

Good Luck

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Kirk Herander  wrote:

Hello,

 

Can anyone provide user feedback on the Seaward PV test/commissioning
equipment? I'm t

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC wire size

[John Berdner]

Alan:

In my experience, the worst case currents occur during battery charging 
following a deep discharge.
(You should see a generator exhaust pipe at night when charging hard - such a 
pretty shade of yellow/orange)

The SI has parameters you can set to limit the maximum charge rates which 
should solve your concern.

This is found in SI Parameter #222.01 under the Battery Settings menu
#222 Battery Charge Mode
No. __Name Description__Value Explanation ___Default value
01__ BatChrgCurMax__Charging current of the battery10 A ... 1200 A__1,200 A

I am not sure if this value is the sum of the SI currents or if this is 
actually the value the inverters read off the external current shunt needed for 
DC coupled systems.
I think the SI uses the current shunt value (if present) but I am not sure - 
Check with SMA Support to find out.
If it is the former then you would need to consider the Radian charge current 
and subtract that off your maximum allowed value then enter that "net" value 
into the SI's.

As I mentioned in my earlier posts the breaker in the SI was selected to match 
the short duration current versus time trip curves.
Since the SI can do very substantial surges (up to 12 kVA per inverter) the 
short duration tripping characteristics were key.
As I recall the breaker was actually 2 internally parallel AMS 125 
(non-standard part from Eaton).
See curve 252 (DC 25x) data on page 8 of the following 
http://www.heinemann-electric.com/acrobat/ams-cata.pdf
Not sure what breaker is used in current SI production but the characteristics 
should be similar to the above.

In normal operation the maximum continuous current will be the inverter rating 
divided by minimum battery voltage.
I ASS U ME this is where the 125 Amp recommendation for a SI5000 comes from 
(5000W/40Vdc).
Never mind that pesky 1.25 * the continuous current NEC thingy.

If you are using an external OCPD be sure to use a L...O...N...G time delay 
type and compare the short duration trip characteristics of your OCPD to that 
of the SI's breaker.
If your OCPD will trip "sooner" than the SI's breaker you may see nuisance  
tripping of your OCPD during high surge events.
There might be a parameter to limit the maximum discharge (surge) current but I 
could not find it in my admittedly quick skim of the SI manual.
If you do not foresee very high surge loads (motor starting) this will not be 
an issue.
48 kVA seems like one heck of a surge but, then again,  I have not seen the 
customer's home :)

Best Regards,

John Berdner
General Manager, North America

[cid:image001.jpg@01CE09F2.47122470]

SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.
3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA  (*Please note of our new address.)
T: 510.498.3200, X 747
M: 530.277.4894

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 1:41 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC wire size

John (and other Wrenches),
I read with great interest this post about Sunny Island breaker size. We are 
about to install a large semi-off grid system for a wealthy and eccentric 
customer. The system has 17kW of PV, and four SI5048 inverter/chargers, along 
with an Outback Radian serving as an inverter only to some separate protected 
circuits. The system has utility backup power available as well as a backup 
30kW generator, but for a complicated reason the system can't be set to feed 
back into the grid; the SIs' sell function will be disabled.

The four SIs are set up as a pair on each 120V phase, as SMA allows. After 
consultation with SMA tech support, I have designed each SI to be on a 125A dc 
breaker. This is done to keep the total protected ampacity of the dc battery 
cabling and bussing to 850 amps (125 A x 4 = 500 A, plus 175 A x 2 for the 
Radian, all passing through a common 1,000 A shunt to allow accurate SOC 
metering). It's hard enough to address battery cabling and shunting with 850 
amps; with 175 A dc breakers the total would be 1,050 amps, and with 250 A dc 
breakers the total would be 1,350 amps.

Given that the loads supplied are residential, primarily electronic and 
resistive, and thus few if any large surges, and given that the inverters on 
each phase are paralleled, how much should I worry about the 125a dc breaker 
size? Are there SI programming settings that I should know about to better 
protect against nuisance tripping?

Thank you,
Allan
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com
On 2/4/2013 1:29 PM, John Berdner wrote:

Ryan:

Not sure what is in the manual now but...The lugs in

[RE-wrenches] MC3-MC4 Connectors

[Jason Szumlanski]

I'm getting an odd number of calls recently from local people who want MC4
connectors. When I tell them a crimping tool is needed, they tell me they
could also use MC3 to MC4 adapters. I'm guessing that somebody dumped a
bunch of old modules with MC3 connectors in the local market to DIY'ers. I
keep trying to probe to see if they need MC3 locking clamshells for
interconnections to meet code, but they have no idea what I'm talking
about, of course.

Anyway, can someone give me a source for adapter cables. My usual sources
have stopped carrying them. Eventually I'll get one of these guys to let
the pros take over. :)

*Jason Szumlanski*

*Fafco Solar
*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] MC3-MC4 Connectors

[jay peltz]

Hi Jason

Contact. PV cables

br...@pv-cables.com
707-923-3000

Jay

Peltz power


Sent from my iPad

On Feb 13, 2013, at 3:55 PM, Jason Szumlanski  wrote:

> I'm getting an odd number of calls recently from local people who want MC4 
> connectors. When I tell them a crimping tool is needed, they tell me they 
> could also use MC3 to MC4 adapters. I'm guessing that somebody dumped a bunch 
> of old modules with MC3 connectors in the local market to DIY'ers. I keep 
> trying to probe to see if they need MC3 locking clamshells for 
> interconnections to meet code, but they have no idea what I'm talking about, 
> of course. 
> 
> Anyway, can someone give me a source for adapter cables. My usual sources 
> have stopped carrying them. Eventually I'll get one of these guys to let the 
> pros take over. :)
> 
> Jason Szumlanski
> Fafco Solar
> 
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[RE-wrenches] PowerOne Micro Inverters-

[James Rudolph]

Wrenchies,
Does anybody out there have any positive feed back on the PowerOne micro
inverters yet? We need to build a few systems with these here on O'ahu due
to the impossibility of finding any M-210 Enphase micros.

Mahalo in advance

-- 
*
James B Rudolph*
*Heleakala Solar* *
*
*Director of Construction*
*NABCEP Certified PV Installer*
*
*
*
*
*

*Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion
to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor
safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could
ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!   -
William McDonough
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Mini Grid Controlled Generator (Was: GeneratorControlled Mini Grid)

[Carl Emerson]

Hi there,

 

Just to mention this research paper on the long term benefits of Diesel/PV
compared to PV/battery systems and Diesel only.

 

This was an experimental setup in using 2.85 kW Solar and a 9.2 kW diesel
generator (No Batteries).

 

http://iopscience.iop.org/1757-899X/29/1/012012/pdf/1757-899X_29_1_012012.pd
f

 

Thanks,

 

Carl Emerson.

 

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[RE-wrenches] PowerOne Micro Inverters-

[Marco Mangelsdorf]

I've got the only operational P1 micro installation in the state here in
Hilo. 

 

It's a solid product.  The monitoring system works pretty well although it's
still something of a work in progress.

 

Allied Building on Sand Island there on O'ahu will be stocking them most
likely sometime in March-April.

 

>From a number of performance perspectives, it appears to be a superior
product to Enphase for any module rated at 225 watts or higher.  As in zero
possibility for clipping if you use the P1 250 for any module up to 250
watts nameplate and P1 300 for any up to 80 cell mod up to 300 watts
nameplate.

 

Contact me off-line and I can provide you with screen shots from the
monitoring program if you'd like.

 

marco

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of James
Rudolph
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 3:36 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] PowerOne Micro Inverters-

 

Wrenchies,
Does anybody out there have any positive feed back on the PowerOne micro
inverters yet? We need to build a few systems with these here on O'ahu due
to the impossibility of finding any M-210 Enphase micros.

Mahalo in advance

-- 

James B Rudolph

Heleakala Solar 

Director of Construction

NABCEP Certified PV Installer

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Mini Grid Controlled Generator (Was:GeneratorControlled Mini Grid)

[Carl Emerson]

Hi there,

 

The following link is to an off grid SMA Diesel/solar hybrid (no batteries)

 

http://www.solarnovus.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6031:
south-african-solar-diesel-hybrid-project-online&catid=41:applications-tech-
news&Itemid=245

 

SMA are clearly investing in this direction and I understand will release
suitable product this year.

 

Cheers,

 

Carl Emerson.

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Seaward Solarlink

[Bill Hoffer]

Kirk

I can't say exactly on battery life, but it seems to hold up pretty well
and I do like using standard off the shelf batteries, I can always carry
spares because if they are going to go dead you know it is when you are in
the middle of no where!  I prefer rechargeables, but someone always seems
to forget to plug it in when you come back from the field!..oops!  I do
wish they had a better indicator of battery life.  I have had problems
connecting the 200R irradiance RF to the PV150 meter during training , and
it is usually the battery being low in the 200R (9V), but not the PV150,
they seem to last a pretty long time .  Pop in a new one and everything is
OK.

Bill

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Kirk Herander  wrote:

> PS – What’s of battery life like in the Seaward products, in particular
> when using the wireless irradiance meter? I have a Fluke 233 w/ detachable
> remote display. It has a range of about 30 ft. Trouble is every time a pull
> it out after a couple weeks of being turned off the batteries are always
> dead……
>
> ** **
>
> Kirk Herander
>
> VT Solar, LLC
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> NABCEPTM Certified Inaugural Certificant
>
> NYSERDA-eligible Installer
>
> VT RE Incentive Program Partner
>
> 802.863.1202
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
> re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kirk Herander
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 13, 2013 5:39 PM
>
> *To:* 'RE-wrenches'
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Seaward Solarlink
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks Bill. It was your excellent HP article which turned me on to
> Seaward products, as applied to full-blown evaluation. I am doing larger
> and more commercial arrays now and this testing is a logical step up in
> professional commissioning. Sure beats the basics using my old Fluke. Now
> the hand-held IR thermal imager, at $6K, is a little harder to justify.***
> *
>
> ** **
>
> Kirk Herander
>
> VT Solar, LLC
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> NABCEPTM Certified Inaugural Certificant
>
> NYSERDA-eligible Installer
>
> VT RE Incentive Program Partner
>
> 802.863.1202
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Bill
> Hoffer
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 13, 2013 5:03 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Seaward Solarlink
>
> ** **
>
> Kirk
>
> Good to check out, it is a fair amount of money, but being able to safely
> do Isc on a full series string, megging, grounding continuity and DC power,
> it is a handy tool to have.
> I have been using one for over a year now and have been very happy with
> it.  It is relatively quick to use once you get used to it and gives me a
> lot of confidence in the final install knowing that the ground continuity
> is sound, strings are in good shape ( no bad modules or connections ) and
> the array has been safely meg tested ( shorted leads vs , - to Ground and +
> to ground).  Make sure you get the PV150 with extra memory and RF
> capability with the 200R irradiance and cell temp meter.  Clamp on meter is
> good to, with the PV T leads attached will calculate DC power into
> Inverter.
>
> I actually like their single phase Solar Power meter too , since it will
> do kW AC, makes short work of doing Inverter performance validation.  It
> also does PF , Harmonics and will detect phase order for a 3 phase motor.
> Pretty nice, seems most power meters are in the $6k range and start at 3
> phase, so for $500 bucks I think it is a good value.
>
> Keep in mind that the Seaward is designed for European installs where they
> usually have MC4 connectors at each inverter location, so the PV connectors
> supplied are MC4 and Sunclips.  I have adapted the sunclips to Banana stlye
> connectors so I can use standard off the shelf 20 amp 1000 VDC test leads
> and banana clip extensions.  Easy to also use MC4 adapters to any other
> standard connectors.  I wish we used MC4's to the inverters, it would speed
> up commissioning alot!  Sometimes it is a challenge to adapt combiners or
> inverter disconnects to make a spot to use as a test lead when there is no
> where to clamp on.  Hopefully as commissioning of larger installs becomes
> commoner we will see those manufacturers making a test spot more accessible!
>
> Also beware that the Megger only really works for PV Strings and if you
> need to meg wire or motors you will need a standard $500 Megger, I like the
> Fluke 1587 because it has other common meter funtions.  Frankly I do not
> like megging a PV string using a megger, to me the Seaward is a lot faster
> and gives me more useful information all at once ( Voc Isc, Insulation
> resistance, irradiance, Cell temp).
>
> I also do training in commissioning testing through Solar Energy
> International ( PV351lab)  that allows you to use all the advanced tools
> available for commissioning and troubleshooti