date:20130927

Re: [RE-wrenches] Energy usage for an electric car

2013-09-27 Thread David Katz

My nissan leaf uses about 25 kW-h to go 70 miles.
David Katz

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 27, 2013, at 1:20 PM, "William Miller" 
mailto:will...@millersolar.com>> wrote:

Friends:

Have any of you researched the energy usage for an electric car?  The car in 
question is a Tesla Sedan.

Thanks in advance.

William

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[RE-wrenches] Generator Waveform noise

2013-09-27 Thread Howie Michaelson

Hi all,

One of my clients looking for a new off-grid generator mentioned that
there are reports that the ecogen has a less clean sine wave then the
Kohler.  Does anyone have any information or direct experience to support
or refute this info.  I'm interested in the ecogen, but don't want to
recommend it if that is the case.

Thanks,
Howie
-- 
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer

Catamount Solar, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar Electric & Hot Water Incentive Partner
http://www.CatamountSolar.com
802-272-0004


On Fri, September 27, 2013 8:28 pm, Ray Walters wrote:
> Please let us all know, as this is important for all.
>
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 9/27/2013 4:23 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
>> Hi Wrenches,
>>
>> I've been looking for a distributor for the Generac Ecogen. The ones I
>> contacted are about $300 higher than paying retail at Lowes. Is there
>> a supplier that sells wholesale or discounts to dealers?
>>
>> Off list answer is fine.
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Larry Crutcher
>> la...@starlightsolar.com 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 15, 2013, at 8:56 PM, Ray Walters > > wrote:
>>
>> What supplier are folks using for the Ecogen?
>>
>> R.Ray Walters
>> CTO, Solarray, Inc
>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
>> Licensed Master Electrician
>> Solar Design Engineer
>> 303 505-8760
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Energy usage for an electric car

2013-09-27 Thread Ray Walters


Did you mean 0.3 to 0.4 kwh/ mile?

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 9/27/2013 5:05 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote:


a good guesstimate is 3 to 4 kWh/mile

todd

On Friday, September 27, 2013 3:05pm, "Ray Walters"  
said:


We did a charging station for a Chevy Volt earlier this year.  We 
actually ran the charger for about a week to come up with the design, 
based on their mileage ,etc.  This also accounted for battery and 
inverter losses.  We added about a 3400 w array (off grid) and they 
drove about 40 miles round trip/ day.  We went with the 120 vac slower 
charger to keep a slower and more efficient discharge rate of the main 
system battery.  I believe that charging at slower rates is almost 
always going to be more efficient due to Puekert's exponent.


R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 
9/27/2013 2:20 PM, William Miller wrote:


Friends:

Have any of you researched the energy usage for an electric car?
The car in question is a Tesla Sedan.

Thanks in advance.

William



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid LP Gen advice

2013-09-27 Thread Ray Walters


Please let us all know, as this is important for all.

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 9/27/2013 4:23 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:

Hi Wrenches,

I've been looking for a distributor for the Generac Ecogen. The ones I 
contacted are about $300 higher than paying retail at Lowes. Is there 
a supplier that sells wholesale or discounts to dealers?


Off list answer is fine.
Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
la...@starlightsolar.com 




On Sep 15, 2013, at 8:56 PM, Ray Walters > wrote:


What supplier are folks using for the Ecogen?

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Energy usage for an electric car

2013-09-27 Thread August Goers

Here's a good place to go to find mileage:



http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=32557



38 kW-hrs/100 mi for the Tesla Model S.



Todd, isn't your estimate below off by a decimal?



Best,



August



*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *
toddc...@finestplanet.com
*Sent:* Friday, September 27, 2013 4:06 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Energy usage for an electric car



a good guesstimate is 3 to 4 kWh/mile



todd







On Friday, September 27, 2013 3:05pm, "Ray Walters"  said:

We did a charging station for a Chevy Volt earlier this year.  We actually
ran the charger for about a week to come up with the design, based on their
mileage ,etc.  This also accounted for battery and inverter losses.  We
added about a 3400 w array (off grid) and they drove about 40 miles round
trip/ day.  We went with the 120 vac slower charger to keep a slower and
more efficient discharge rate of the main system battery.  I believe that
charging at slower rates is almost always going to be more efficient due to
Puekert's exponent.

R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed
Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760

On 9/27/2013 2:20 PM, William Miller wrote:

Friends:

Have any of you researched the energy usage for an electric car?  The car
in question is a Tesla Sedan.

Thanks in advance.

William



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Energy usage for an electric car

2013-09-27 Thread toddcory


a good guesstimate is 3 to 4 kWh/mile
 
todd
 
 
 
On Friday, September 27, 2013 3:05pm, "Ray Walters"  said:



We did a charging station for a Chevy   Volt earlier this year.  We 
actually ran the charger for about a   week to come up with the design, 
based on their mileage ,etc.This also accounted for battery and 
inverter losses.  We added   about a 3400 w array (off grid) and they drove 
about 40 miles   round trip/ day.  We went with the 120 vac slower charger 
to keep   a slower and more efficient discharge rate of the main system 
  battery.  I believe that charging at slower rates is almost always   
going to be more efficient due to Puekert's exponent.


R.Ray WaltersCTO, Solarray, IncNabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master 
ElectricianSolar Design Engineer303 505-8760On 9/27/2013 2:20 PM, William 
Miller wrote:

Friends:
 
Have any of you researched the energy usage for an electric car?
  The car in question is a Tesla Sedan.
 
Thanks in advance.
 
William
 
 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid LP Gen advice

2013-09-27 Thread Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems

Hi Wrenches,

I've been looking for a distributor for the Generac Ecogen. The ones I 
contacted are about $300 higher than paying retail at Lowes. Is there a 
supplier that sells wholesale or discounts to dealers?

Off list answer is fine. 
Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
la...@starlightsolar.com




On Sep 15, 2013, at 8:56 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

What supplier are folks using for the Ecogen?

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Energy usage for an electric car

2013-09-27 Thread Ray Walters

We did a charging station for a Chevy Volt earlier this year.  We 
actually ran the charger for about a week to come up with the design, 
based on their mileage ,etc. This also accounted for battery and 
inverter losses.  We added about a 3400 w array (off grid) and they 
drove about 40 miles round trip/ day.  We went with the 120 vac slower 
charger to keep a slower and more efficient discharge rate of the main 
system battery.  I believe that charging at slower rates is almost 
always going to be more efficient due to Puekert's exponent.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 9/27/2013 2:20 PM, William Miller wrote:


Friends:

Have any of you researched the energy usage for an electric car? The 
car in question is a Tesla Sedan.


Thanks in advance.

William



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[RE-wrenches] Energy usage for an electric car

2013-09-27 Thread William Miller

Friends:

 

Have any of you researched the energy usage for an electric car?  The car in
question is a Tesla Sedan.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

William

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

2013-09-27 Thread August Goers

If you look at the bottom of the Encore spec sheet it has the print legend
including "Type Photovoltaic Wire." 2008 NEC 690.35(D)(3) says "Conductors
listed and identified as Photovoltaic (PV) Wire installed as exposed,
single conductors.

Seems like a match to me. They just wrote out Photovoltaic.

-August

*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kelly Larson
*Sent:* Friday, September 27, 2013 11:03 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

Even though they say "Photovoltaic" in the spec sheet, I am not sure that
this is "PV Wire". I don't see anywhere that it actually uses those exact
words, and that is the designation in the NEC.

Blessings,

Kelly

On Sep 27, 2013, at 10:38 AM, August Goers wrote:

Marco,

Yes, there is single jacketed PV wire. I've attached a spec sheet for some
1000 V wire we've been using. I don't know anything about the actual wiring
construction and why single versus double jacketing may or may not be used.
I just know it needs to be listed for the purpose.

Best, August

*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Marco Mangelsdorf
*Sent:* Friday, September 27, 2013 10:28 AM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

Thanks, August.

OK, so I’ve found “PV wire” that’s double-insulated. (See attached spec
sheet from Falcon wire.)

Is there PV wire out there that’s just got a single insulation layer that
qualifies as per what came from that helpful article below?

marco

USE-2 is a standard wire designated for underground service entrance,
typically used to connect terminals of a variety of service equipment. PV
wire is specifically designated for use in PV module interconnections. Both
cables are rated for 90oC wet or dry. PV wire, however, has thicker
insulation to withstand the harsh environments frequently found in PV
installations. USE-2 carries a 600V rating, whereas PV wire can be rated at
600V, 1000V or 2000V. There are separate ratings with increased insulation
thickness for each cable.

Both USE-2 and PV wire can be used with grounded systems, but only PV wire
may be used with ungrounded systems per NEC 2008. Since USE-2 has typically
been installed underground or in environments where flame is unlikely, it
usually does not require a flame retardant rating.*The PV wire designation
does include a VW-1 flame test requirement.* Both ratings are sunlight
resistant, but the PV wire rating applies a more stringent test requirement
of 720 hours in weatherometer vs. 300 hour weatherometer test for USE-2.

*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
] *On Behalf Of *August Goers
*Sent:* Friday, September 27, 2013 4:18 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

Marco,

My understanding is that PV wire is a separate listing. Exposed DC wiring
with ungrounded non-isolated systems must be PV wire. USE-2 wire is not
necessarily PV wire unless listed and labeled as PV wire. Here's a decent
article:

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2010/11/performancecost-trade-offs-in-pv-systems-wiringcabling-selection

Best, August

*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Marco Mangelsdorf
*Sent:* Friday, September 27, 2013 12:24 AM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

Thanks, Glen.

This brings up the question of what exactly constitutes “PV Wire.” “PV
wire” does not necessarily = double-insulated wire which I thought is
required with ungrounded PV systems on the DC side at least until you hit
an enclosure and enclosed raceway where you can transition to THWN-2 wire.
Is there a clear and unambiguous definition out there of what constitutes
“PV Wire”? To some XLP/USE-2/RHW-2 wire is “PV Wire.”

marco

2008 NEC

690.35 Ungrounded Photovoltaic Power Systems.

Photovoltaic power systems shall be permitted to operate with ungrounded
photovoltaic source and output circuits where the system complies with
690.35(A) through (G).

(A) Disconnects.

(B) Overcurrent Protection.

(D) The photovoltaic source conductors shall consist of the following:

(1) Nonmetallic jacketed multiconductor cables

(2) Conductors installed in raceways, or

(3) Conductors listed and identified as Photovoltaic (PV) Wire
installed as exposed, single conductors.

Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

2013-09-27 Thread August Goers

It has Photovoltaic Wire on the jacket. See attached. -August

*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Marco Mangelsdorf
*Sent:* Friday, September 27, 2013 10:43 AM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

Thanks.

Does this wire have “PV Wire” written on the insulation jacket?

*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
*On Behalf Of *August Goers
*Sent:* Friday, September 27, 2013 7:38 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

Marco,

Best, August

Thanks, August.

OK, so I’ve found “PV wire” that’s double-insulated. (See attached spec
sheet from Falcon wire.)

Is there PV wire out there that’s just got a single insulation layer that
qualifies as per what came from that helpful article below?

marco

Both USE-2 and PV wire can be used with grounded systems, but only PV wire
may be used with ungrounded systems per NEC 2008. Since USE-2 has typically
been installed underground or in environments where flame is unlikely, it
usually does not require a flame retardant rating. *The PV wire designation
does include a VW-1 flame test requirement.* Both ratings are sunlight
resistant, but the PV wire rating applies a more stringent test requirement
of 720 hours in weatherometer vs. 300 hour weatherometer test for USE-2.

*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
*On Behalf Of *August Goers
*Sent:* Friday, September 27, 2013 4:18 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

Marco,

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2010/11/performancecost-trade-offs-in-pv-systems-wiringcabling-selection

Best, August

*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Marco Mangelsdorf
*Sent:* Friday, September 27, 2013 12:24 AM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

Thanks, Glen.

marco

2008 NEC

690.35 Ungrounded Photovoltaic Power Systems.

Photovoltaic power systems shall be permitted to operate with ungrounded
photovoltaic source and output circuits where the system complies with
690.35(A) through (G).

(A) Disconnects.

(B) Overcurrent Protection.

(D) The photovoltaic source conductors shall consist of the following:

(1) Nonmetallic jacketed multiconductor cables

(2) Conductors installed in raceways, or

(3) Conductors listed and identified as Photovoltaic (PV) Wire
installed as exposed, single conductors.

Raceway. An enclosed channel of metal or nonmetallic materials designed
expressly for holding wires, cables, or busbars, with additional functions
as permitted in this Code. Raceways include, but are not limited to, rigid
metal conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, intermediate metal conduit,
liquidtight flexible conduit, flexible metallic tubing, flexible metal
conduit, electrical nonmetallic tubing, electrical metall

Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

2013-09-27 Thread Isaac Opalinsky

Check out the print legend at the bottom of the datasheet; it should always
say "PHOTOVOLTAIC WIRE", and may also have other markings like USE-2 and
RHW-2.   PV Wire should be listed to UL 4703, which is the outline of
investigation for PV Wire:
http://ulstandardsinfonet.ul.com/outscope/outscope.asp?fn=4703.html.

 Isaac Opalinsky
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Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

2013-09-27 Thread Kelly Larson

Even though they say "Photovoltaic" in the spec sheet, I am not sure that this 
is "PV Wire".  I don't see anywhere that it actually uses those exact words, 
and that is the designation in the NEC.

Blessings,
Kelly



On Sep 27, 2013, at 10:38 AM, August Goers wrote:

> Marco,
>  
> Yes, there is single jacketed PV wire. I've attached a spec sheet for some 
> 1000 V wire we've been using. I don't know anything about the actual wiring 
> construction and why single versus double jacketing may or may not be used. I 
> just know it needs to be listed for the purpose.
>  
> Best, August
>  
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco 
> Mangelsdorf
> Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 10:28 AM
> To: 'RE-wrenches'
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors
>  
> Thanks, August.
>  
> OK, so I’ve found “PV wire” that’s double-insulated.  (See attached spec 
> sheet from Falcon wire.)
>  
> Is there PV wire out there that’s just got a single insulation layer that 
> qualifies as per what came from that helpful article below?
>  
> marco
> USE-2 is a standard wire designated for underground service entrance, 
> typically used to connect terminals of a variety of service equipment. PV 
> wire is specifically designated for use in PV module interconnections. Both 
> cables are rated for 90oC wet or dry. PV wire, however, has thicker 
> insulation to withstand the harsh environments frequently found in PV 
> installations. USE-2 carries a 600V rating, whereas PV wire can be rated at 
> 600V, 1000V or 2000V. There are separate ratings with increased insulation 
> thickness for each cable.
> 
> Both USE-2 and PV wire can be used with grounded systems, but only PV wire 
> may be used with ungrounded systems per NEC 2008. Since USE-2 has typically 
> been installed underground or in environments where flame is unlikely, it 
> usually does not require a flame retardant rating.The PV wire designation 
> does include a VW-1 flame test requirement. Both ratings are sunlight 
> resistant, but the PV wire rating applies a more stringent test requirement 
> of 720 hours in weatherometer vs. 300 hour weatherometer test for USE-2.
> 
>  
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
> Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 4:18 AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors
>  
> Marco,
>  
> My understanding is that PV wire is a separate listing. Exposed DC wiring 
> with ungrounded non-isolated systems must be PV wire. USE-2 wire is not 
> necessarily PV wire unless listed and labeled as PV wire. Here's a decent 
> article:
>  
> http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2010/11/performancecost-trade-offs-in-pv-systems-wiringcabling-selection
>  
> Best, August
>  
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco 
> Mangelsdorf
> Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 12:24 AM
> To: 'RE-wrenches'
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors
>  
> Thanks, Glen.
>  
> This brings up the question of what exactly constitutes “PV Wire.”   “PV 
> wire” does not necessarily = double-insulated wire which I thought is 
> required with ungrounded PV systems on the DC side at least until you hit an 
> enclosure and enclosed raceway where you can transition to THWN-2 wire.  Is 
> there a clear and unambiguous definition out there of what constitutes “PV 
> Wire”?  To some XLP/USE-2/RHW-2 wire is “PV Wire.”
>  
> marco
>  
> 2008 NEC
>  
> 690.35 Ungrounded Photovoltaic Power Systems.
> Photovoltaic power systems shall be permitted to operate with ungrounded 
> photovoltaic source and output circuits where the system complies with 
> 690.35(A) through (G).
> (A) Disconnects.
> (B) Overcurrent Protection.
> (C) Ground-Fault Protection.
> (D)  The photovoltaic source conductors shall consist of the following:  
> (1)  Nonmetallic jacketed multiconductor cables 
> (2)  Conductors installed in raceways, or 
> (3)  Conductors listed and identified as Photovoltaic (PV) Wire 
> installed as exposed, single conductors.
>  
> Raceway.  An enclosed channel of metal or nonmetallic materials designed 
> expressly for holding wires, cables, or busbars, with additional functions as 
> permitted in this Code. Raceways include, but are not limited to, rigid metal 
> conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight 
> flexible conduit, flexible metallic tubing, flexible metal conduit, 
> electrical nonmetallic tubing, electrical metallic tubing, underfloor 
> raceways, cellular concrete floor raceways, cellular metal floor raceways, 
> surface raceways, wireways, and busways.
>  
> Reads to me like you can transition to THWN-2 inside a rooftop jbox from the 
> PV wire unde

Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors // PV Wire

2013-09-27 Thread Garrison Riegel

The words "PV Wire" will be printed on the insulation if it is actually "PV
Wire".  The wire itself can have various thermal and electrical
characteristics, and can be single or double insulated (integrally or
non-integrally jacketed, as they say).  The important thing is that it is
listed to UL 4703.

 

http://ulstandardsinfonet.ul.com/outscope/outscope.asp?fn=4703.html

 

Cheers,

Garrison

 

Garrison Riegel

Project Manager |   Solar Service Inc

[p] 847-677-0950 |  
garri...@solarserviceinc.com

 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalT

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco
Mangelsdorf
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 12:43 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

 

Thanks.

 

Does this wire have "PV Wire" written on the insulation jacket?

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 7:38 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

 

Marco,

 

Yes, there is single jacketed PV wire. I've attached a spec sheet for some
1000 V wire we've been using. I don't know anything about the actual wiring
construction and why single versus double jacketing may or may not be used.
I just know it needs to be listed for the purpose.

 

Best, August

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco
Mangelsdorf
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 10:28 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

 

Thanks, August.

 

OK, so I've found "PV wire" that's double-insulated.  (See attached spec
sheet from Falcon wire.)

 

Is there PV wire out there that's just got a single insulation layer that
qualifies as per what came from that helpful article below?

 

marco

USE-2 is a standard wire designated for underground service entrance,
typically used to connect terminals of a variety of service equipment. PV
wire is specifically designated for use in PV module interconnections. Both
cables are rated for 90oC wet or dry. PV wire, however, has thicker
insulation to withstand the harsh environments frequently found in PV
installations. USE-2 carries a 600V rating, whereas PV wire can be rated at
600V, 1000V or 2000V. There are separate ratings with increased insulation
thickness for each cable.

Both USE-2 and PV wire can be used with grounded systems, but only PV wire
may be used with ungrounded systems per NEC 2008. Since USE-2 has typically
been installed underground or in environments where flame is unlikely, it
usually does not require a flame retardant rating. The PV wire designation
does include a VW-1 flame test requirement. Both ratings are sunlight
resistant, but the PV wire rating applies a more stringent test requirement
of 720 hours in weatherometer vs. 300 hour weatherometer test for USE-2.

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 4:18 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

 

Marco,

 

My understanding is that PV wire is a separate listing. Exposed DC wiring
with ungrounded non-isolated systems must be PV wire. USE-2 wire is not
necessarily PV wire unless listed and labeled as PV wire. Here's a decent
article:

 

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2010/11/performancecost
-trade-offs-in-pv-systems-wiringcabling-selection

 

Best, August

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco
Mangelsdorf
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 12:24 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

 

Thanks, Glen.

 

This brings up the question of what exactly constitutes "PV Wire."   "PV
wire" does not necessarily = double-insulated wire which I thought is
required with ungrounded PV systems on the DC side at least until you hit an
enclosure and enclosed raceway where you can transition to THWN-2 wire.  Is
there a clear and unambiguous definition out there of what constitutes "PV
Wire"?  To some XLP/USE-2/RHW-2 wire is "PV Wire."

 

marco

 

2008 NEC

 

690.35 Ungrounded Photovoltaic Power Systems.

Photovoltaic power systems shall be permitted to operate with ungrounded
photovoltaic source and output circuits where the system complies with
690.35(A) through (G).

(A) Disconnects.

(B) Overcurrent Protection. 

(C) Ground-Fault Protection. 

(D)  The photovoltaic source conductors shall consist of the following:   

(1)  Nonmetallic jacketed multiconductor cables  

(2)  Conductors installed in raceways,

Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

2013-09-27 Thread Marco Mangelsdorf

Thanks.

 

Does this wire have "PV Wire" written on the insulation jacket?

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 7:38 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

 

Marco,

 

Yes, there is single jacketed PV wire. I've attached a spec sheet for some
1000 V wire we've been using. I don't know anything about the actual wiring
construction and why single versus double jacketing may or may not be used.
I just know it needs to be listed for the purpose.

 

Best, August

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco
Mangelsdorf
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 10:28 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

 

Thanks, August.

 

OK, so I've found "PV wire" that's double-insulated.  (See attached spec
sheet from Falcon wire.)

 

Is there PV wire out there that's just got a single insulation layer that
qualifies as per what came from that helpful article below?

 

marco

USE-2 is a standard wire designated for underground service entrance,
typically used to connect terminals of a variety of service equipment. PV
wire is specifically designated for use in PV module interconnections. Both
cables are rated for 90oC wet or dry. PV wire, however, has thicker
insulation to withstand the harsh environments frequently found in PV
installations. USE-2 carries a 600V rating, whereas PV wire can be rated at
600V, 1000V or 2000V. There are separate ratings with increased insulation
thickness for each cable.

Both USE-2 and PV wire can be used with grounded systems, but only PV wire
may be used with ungrounded systems per NEC 2008. Since USE-2 has typically
been installed underground or in environments where flame is unlikely, it
usually does not require a flame retardant rating. The PV wire designation
does include a VW-1 flame test requirement. Both ratings are sunlight
resistant, but the PV wire rating applies a more stringent test requirement
of 720 hours in weatherometer vs. 300 hour weatherometer test for USE-2.

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 4:18 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

 

Marco,

 

My understanding is that PV wire is a separate listing. Exposed DC wiring
with ungrounded non-isolated systems must be PV wire. USE-2 wire is not
necessarily PV wire unless listed and labeled as PV wire. Here's a decent
article:

 

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2010/11/performancecost
-trade-offs-in-pv-systems-wiringcabling-selection

 

Best, August

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco
Mangelsdorf
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 12:24 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

 

Thanks, Glen.

 

This brings up the question of what exactly constitutes "PV Wire."   "PV
wire" does not necessarily = double-insulated wire which I thought is
required with ungrounded PV systems on the DC side at least until you hit an
enclosure and enclosed raceway where you can transition to THWN-2 wire.  Is
there a clear and unambiguous definition out there of what constitutes "PV
Wire"?  To some XLP/USE-2/RHW-2 wire is "PV Wire."

 

marco

 

2008 NEC

 

690.35 Ungrounded Photovoltaic Power Systems.

Photovoltaic power systems shall be permitted to operate with ungrounded
photovoltaic source and output circuits where the system complies with
690.35(A) through (G).

(A) Disconnects.

(B) Overcurrent Protection. 

(C) Ground-Fault Protection. 

(D)  The photovoltaic source conductors shall consist of the following:   

(1)  Nonmetallic jacketed multiconductor cables  

(2)  Conductors installed in raceways, or  

(3)  Conductors listed and identified as Photovoltaic (PV) Wire
installed as exposed, single conductors.

 

Raceway.  An enclosed channel of metal or nonmetallic materials designed
expressly for holding wires, cables, or busbars, with additional functions
as permitted in this Code. Raceways include, but are not limited to, rigid
metal conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, intermediate metal conduit,
liquidtight flexible conduit, flexible metallic tubing, flexible metal
conduit, electrical nonmetallic tubing, electrical metallic tubing,
underfloor raceways, cellular concrete floor raceways, cellular metal floor
raceways, surface raceways, wireways, and busways.

 

Reads to me like you can transition to THWN-2 inside a rooftop jbox from the
PV wire under the modules, as long as it is in a raceway.

 

-Glenn Burt 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

2013-09-27 Thread Kelly Larson

Hi Marco,

I am pretty sure that being double insulated is part of the definition of PV 
Wire.

Blessings,
Kelly

On Sep 27, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote:

> Thanks, August.
>  
> OK, so I’ve found “PV wire” that’s double-insulated.  (See attached spec 
> sheet from Falcon wire.)
>  
> Is there PV wire out there that’s just got a single insulation layer that 
> qualifies as per what came from that helpful article below?
>  
> marco
> USE-2 is a standard wire designated for underground service entrance, 
> typically used to connect terminals of a variety of service equipment. PV 
> wire is specifically designated for use in PV module interconnections. Both 
> cables are rated for 90oC wet or dry. PV wire, however, has thicker 
> insulation to withstand the harsh environments frequently found in PV 
> installations. USE-2 carries a 600V rating, whereas PV wire can be rated at 
> 600V, 1000V or 2000V. There are separate ratings with increased insulation 
> thickness for each cable.
> 
> Both USE-2 and PV wire can be used with grounded systems, but only PV wire 
> may be used with ungrounded systems per NEC 2008. Since USE-2 has typically 
> been installed underground or in environments where flame is unlikely, it 
> usually does not require a flame retardant rating.The PV wire designation 
> does include a VW-1 flame test requirement. Both ratings are sunlight 
> resistant, but the PV wire rating applies a more stringent test requirement 
> of 720 hours in weatherometer vs. 300 hour weatherometer test for USE-2.
> 
>  
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
> Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 4:18 AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors
>  
> Marco,
>  
> My understanding is that PV wire is a separate listing. Exposed DC wiring 
> with ungrounded non-isolated systems must be PV wire. USE-2 wire is not 
> necessarily PV wire unless listed and labeled as PV wire. Here's a decent 
> article:
>  
> http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2010/11/performancecost-trade-offs-in-pv-systems-wiringcabling-selection
>  
> Best, August
>  
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco 
> Mangelsdorf
> Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 12:24 AM
> To: 'RE-wrenches'
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors
>  
> Thanks, Glen.
>  
> This brings up the question of what exactly constitutes “PV Wire.”   “PV 
> wire” does not necessarily = double-insulated wire which I thought is 
> required with ungrounded PV systems on the DC side at least until you hit an 
> enclosure and enclosed raceway where you can transition to THWN-2 wire.  Is 
> there a clear and unambiguous definition out there of what constitutes “PV 
> Wire”?  To some XLP/USE-2/RHW-2 wire is “PV Wire.”
>  
> marco
>  
> 2008 NEC
>  
> 690.35 Ungrounded Photovoltaic Power Systems.
> Photovoltaic power systems shall be permitted to operate with ungrounded 
> photovoltaic source and output circuits where the system complies with 
> 690.35(A) through (G).
> (A) Disconnects.
> (B) Overcurrent Protection.
> (C) Ground-Fault Protection.
> (D)  The photovoltaic source conductors shall consist of the following:  
> (1)  Nonmetallic jacketed multiconductor cables 
> (2)  Conductors installed in raceways, or 
> (3)  Conductors listed and identified as Photovoltaic (PV) Wire 
> installed as exposed, single conductors.
>  
> Raceway.  An enclosed channel of metal or nonmetallic materials designed 
> expressly for holding wires, cables, or busbars, with additional functions as 
> permitted in this Code. Raceways include, but are not limited to, rigid metal 
> conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight 
> flexible conduit, flexible metallic tubing, flexible metal conduit, 
> electrical nonmetallic tubing, electrical metallic tubing, underfloor 
> raceways, cellular concrete floor raceways, cellular metal floor raceways, 
> surface raceways, wireways, and busways.
>  
> Reads to me like you can transition to THWN-2 inside a rooftop jbox from the 
> PV wire under the modules, as long as it is in a raceway.
>  
> -Glenn Burt
>  #10.pdf>___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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> Change email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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> List-Archive: 
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> 
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> 
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> 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Using legacy modules on micro-inverters

2013-09-27 Thread Bill Brooks

William,

 

Just to add one more thing. I said that the M215 does not match well, but if
you have them on hand, they would still work. You will probably power limit
in the spring and fall, but the rest of the year you will probably do fine.
The M250 has a higher operating voltage for 72-cell arrangements. The M215
is more suited for 60-cell modules and circuits.

 

Bill.

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 10:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using legacy modules on micro-inverters

 

Friends:

 

I am trying to upgrade a long time off-grid client to a grid-connected
installation.  They have a mix of Siemens PC4JF and Shell SQ-150P modules.
It is my understanding that putting two of the PC4JFs in series is exactly
one SQ-150.  I don't have spec sheets for the PC4JFs but I am told they are
an SP75.  If I use the data for the SP75 and multiply the voltages by two I
get exactly a SQ-150P.

 

Anyway, putting two 36 modules together makes one 72 cell module.  This
would likely work with an Enphase M190 but those are no longer manufactured.
Same with the M215.  Power One makes a micro that meets the predicted
voltage window.

 

I did this a while ago with pairs of SR100s.  It worked great.  Anyone try
this with even older modules, like those cited???

 

Thanks in advance.

 

William Miller

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Using legacy modules on micro-inverters

2013-09-27 Thread Bill Brooks

William,

 

Here is what I would recommend. 

 

1.   Put pairs of SQ-150s in parallel on an M250. 

2.   Put PC4JFs as two in series by two in parallel on M250.

3.   For leftovers-two PC4JFs in series are the same as one SQ-150 so
mix and match to your heart's content.

 

The issue is either getting a paralleling cable for the MC3 connectors or
installing J-boxes with cable glands to parallel the sets. This is child's
play, but it is fun too. These are just mini PV arrays-no mystery here. You
will not overpower the M250 with this arrangement. These modules will have
lost 10-20% of their nameplate rating at STC (30% at real power) so no
problem with an M250. M215 just does not match well at all.

 

Bill.

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 10:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using legacy modules on micro-inverters

 

Friends:

 

I am trying to upgrade a long time off-grid client to a grid-connected
installation.  They have a mix of Siemens PC4JF and Shell SQ-150P modules.
It is my understanding that putting two of the PC4JFs in series is exactly
one SQ-150.  I don't have spec sheets for the PC4JFs but I am told they are
an SP75.  If I use the data for the SP75 and multiply the voltages by two I
get exactly a SQ-150P.

 

Anyway, putting two 36 modules together makes one 72 cell module.  This
would likely work with an Enphase M190 but those are no longer manufactured.
Same with the M215.  Power One makes a micro that meets the predicted
voltage window.

 

I did this a while ago with pairs of SR100s.  It worked great.  Anyone try
this with even older modules, like those cited???

 

Thanks in advance.

 

William Miller

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

2013-09-27 Thread August Goers

Marco,

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2010/11/performancecost-trade-offs-in-pv-systems-wiringcabling-selection

Best, August

*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Marco Mangelsdorf
*Sent:* Friday, September 27, 2013 12:24 AM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

Thanks, Glen.

marco

2008 NEC

690.35 Ungrounded Photovoltaic Power Systems.

Photovoltaic power systems shall be permitted to operate with ungrounded
photovoltaic source and output circuits where the system complies with
690.35(A) through (G).

(A) Disconnects.

(B) Overcurrent Protection.

(D) The photovoltaic source conductors shall consist of the following:

(1) Nonmetallic jacketed multiconductor cables

(2) Conductors installed in raceways, or

(3) Conductors listed and identified as Photovoltaic (PV) Wire
installed as exposed, single conductors.

Reads to me like you can transition to THWN-2 inside a rooftop jbox from
the PV wire under the modules, as long as it is in a raceway.

-Glenn Burt
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Temp Comp calculations

2013-09-27 Thread Dave Click

William, for quick estimates I usually use www.pvselect.com which uses 
high ambient+30C for its VMP calcs.


On 2013/9/27 1:01, William Miller wrote:


Friends:

Do any of you know any good, on-line tools for calculating temperature 
compensated string voltages?  I looked but I can't find one.  I have 
found some good articles on the subject...


Lacking one, I created an Excel spreadsheet.  I am no expert in this 
aspect of design so I am using it cautiously.  If anyone wants to 
check it out, here is a link.   Any feedback is appreciated:


http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Resources/_PV_String_calculator.xls

As always, thanks to all of you for the excellent input.

William Miller



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[RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

2013-09-27 Thread Marco Mangelsdorf

Thanks, Glen.

 

This brings up the question of what exactly constitutes “PV Wire.”   “PV wire” 
does not necessarily = double-insulated wire which I thought is required with 
ungrounded PV systems on the DC side at least until you hit an enclosure and 
enclosed raceway where you can transition to THWN-2 wire.  Is there a clear and 
unambiguous definition out there of what constitutes “PV Wire”?  To some 
XLP/USE-2/RHW-2 wire is “PV Wire.”

 

marco

 

2008 NEC

 

690.35 Ungrounded Photovoltaic Power Systems.

Photovoltaic power systems shall be permitted to operate with ungrounded 
photovoltaic source and output circuits where the system complies with 
690.35(A) through (G).

(A) Disconnects.

(B) Overcurrent Protection. 

(C) Ground-Fault Protection. 

(D)  The photovoltaic source conductors shall consist of the following:   

(1)  Nonmetallic jacketed multiconductor cables  

(2)  Conductors installed in raceways, or  

(3)  Conductors listed and identified as Photovoltaic (PV) Wire 
installed as exposed, single conductors.

 

Raceway.  An enclosed channel of metal or nonmetallic materials designed 
expressly for holding wires, cables, or busbars, with additional functions as 
permitted in this Code. Raceways include, but are not limited to, rigid metal 
conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight 
flexible conduit, flexible metallic tubing, flexible metal conduit, electrical 
nonmetallic tubing, electrical metallic tubing, underfloor raceways, cellular 
concrete floor raceways, cellular metal floor raceways, surface raceways, 
wireways, and busways.

 

Reads to me like you can transition to THWN-2 inside a rooftop jbox from the PV 
wire under the modules, as long as it is in a raceway.

 

-Glenn Burt 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

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Re: [RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

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[RE-wrenches] transformerless inverters and conductor colors

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