Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island battery OCP

[william]

Jay:

 

It is meant for installation immediately adjacent to the inverters.  I
believe we need to be installing OCP adjacent to the batteries.

 

Wm

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 6:56 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island battery OCP

 

HI William,

 

I agree with your choices below, but I"m  curious why you decided against
the midnite Epanel for the SI?

 

thanks

 

jay

 

peltz power

 

 

On Feb 10, 2014, at 9:33 PM,  wrote:





Friends:

 

Thanks for all of the replies.  Here is what I have learned so far

 

1.   The SMA fuse blocks are not UL listed for installation in the
USofA.

2.   The Square D switches are not high enough in amperage for battery
circuits.

3.   The bolt-switch idea is great if you want fuses and a pullout.  Not
for me.

4.   Our solution will be an Outback FX 1000 with three 250 amp
breakers.

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] From the Sunny Island manual

[william]

Allan:

 

Thanks for that interpretation.  I know some German high school students.  I
may see if they can interpret the original for me.  Seems pretty cryptic.

 

William

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 8:17 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] From the Sunny Island manual

 

William,
Before I read your interpretation, mine was quite different, and I think
simpler. I read it as saying simply that if the Sunny Island sees AC, it can
take current from that source if it needs it for charging. A fuse, if blown,
is no different than having no external AC source from which to charge. 
Nothing else meant by this sectin.
Allan

Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder, Positive Energy, Inc.

A Certified B CorporationTM
3209 Richards Lane
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell
www.positiveenergysolar.com  

On 2/11/2014 9:04 PM, will...@millersolar.com wrote:

Friends:

 

Below is a quote from the Sunny Island manual.  I am interested if anyone
can interpret this for me, please.

 

If there are no additional fuses installed between the generator or utility
grid and the Sunny Island, the Sunny Island knows whether it has a
connection to the utility grid/to the generator. The Sunny Island can then
draw current from the utility grid/from the generator.

 

If there are additional fuses or switches installed between the Sunny Island
and the utility grid/ the generator, the Sunny Island cannot determine
whether fuses or switches are separated or whether there is no voltage
available from the utility grid/the generator. In either case the Sunny
Island cannot charge its battery and the loads that are in operation will
discharge the Sunny Island battery. Check the additional fuses and switches
regularly in order that the Sunny Island battery only discharges when there
is no voltage available from the utility grid/the generator.

 

Here is what I think it means:  if there is additional power distribution
connected to the Sunny Island AC input, those loads may be powered by
inversion, inadvertently depleting the batteries.  What is unusual here is
that with a standard off-grind inverter, loads connected to the input side
can never be powered by the batteries, but they can be with an AC coupled
inverter?  Is this correct?

 

Also, I have not found it in the manual although I have looked:  Can the
Sunny Island provide generator support (sync to and provide additional power
to loads that exceed the capability of the generator?

 

Thank you all very much.

 

William Miller

 






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[RE-wrenches] Lead-selenium tubular plate batteries

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Has anyone tried these? This is my first awareness of them.
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/companies/sbs-battery/products/stt-opzs-series-flooded-tubular-batteries

Description: 
20 year Lead-Selenium Tubular Plate Batteries:
  12V 55-165Ah, 6V 220-330Ah, 2V 110-3585Ah
Best to ask here first!
  Thank you,
  Allan

-- 
  
  
  
  
  
  

  

  



  Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV
  Installation Professional
  NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
  New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
  Founder, Positive Energy, Inc.
  A
  Certified B CorporationTM
  3209
  Richards Lane
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
  505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell
  www.positiveenergysolar.com
   

  
  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] From the Sunny Island manual

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
William,
  Before I read your interpretation, mine was quite different, and I
  think simpler. I read it as saying simply that if the Sunny Island
  sees AC, it can take current from that source if it needs it for
  charging. A fuse, if blown, is no different than having no
  external AC source from which to charge. 
  Nothing else meant by this sectin.
  Allan
  
  






  

  

  
  
  
Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
  NABCEP Certified PV
Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder, Positive Energy, Inc.
A
Certified B CorporationTM
3209
Richards Lane
  Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell
www.positiveenergysolar.com
 
  

  On 2/11/2014 9:04 PM, will...@millersolar.com wrote:


  
  
  
  
Friends:
 
Below is a quote from the Sunny Island
  manual.  I am interested if anyone can interpret this for me,
  please.
 
If there
  are no additional fuses installed between the generator or
  utility grid and the Sunny Island, the Sunny Island knows
  whether it has a connection to the utility grid/to the
  generator. The Sunny Island can then draw current from the
  utility grid/from the generator.
 
If there
  are additional fuses or switches installed between the
  Sunny Island and the utility grid/ the generator, the
  Sunny Island cannot determine whether fuses or switches
  are separated or whether there is no voltage available
  from the utility grid/the generator. In either case the
  Sunny Island cannot charge its battery and the loads that
  are in operation will discharge the Sunny Island battery.
  Check the additional fuses and switches regularly in order
  that the Sunny Island battery only discharges when there
  is no voltage available from the utility grid/the
  generator.
 
Here is what
I think it means:  if there is additional power distribution
connected to the Sunny Island AC input, those loads may be
powered by inversion, inadvertently depleting the
batteries.  What is unusual here is that with a standard
off-grind inverter, loads connected to the input side can
never be powered by the batteries, but they can be with an
AC coupled inverter?  Is this correct?
 
Also, I have
not found it in the manual although I have looked:  Can the
Sunny Island provide generator support (sync to and provide
additional power to loads that exceed the capability of the
generator?
 
Thank you
all very much.
 
William
Miller
 
  
  
  
  
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[RE-wrenches] From the Sunny Island manual

[william]

Friends:

 

Below is a quote from the Sunny Island manual.  I am interested if anyone
can interpret this for me, please.

 

If there are no additional fuses installed between the generator or utility
grid and the Sunny Island, the Sunny Island knows whether it has a
connection to the utility grid/to the generator. The Sunny Island can then
draw current from the utility grid/from the generator.

 

If there are additional fuses or switches installed between the Sunny Island
and the utility grid/ the generator, the Sunny Island cannot determine
whether fuses or switches are separated or whether there is no voltage
available from the utility grid/the generator. In either case the Sunny
Island cannot charge its battery and the loads that are in operation will
discharge the Sunny Island battery. Check the additional fuses and switches
regularly in order that the Sunny Island battery only discharges when there
is no voltage available from the utility grid/the generator.

 

Here is what I think it means:  if there is additional power distribution
connected to the Sunny Island AC input, those loads may be powered by
inversion, inadvertently depleting the batteries.  What is unusual here is
that with a standard off-grind inverter, loads connected to the input side
can never be powered by the batteries, but they can be with an AC coupled
inverter?  Is this correct?

 

Also, I have not found it in the manual although I have looked:  Can the
Sunny Island provide generator support (sync to and provide additional power
to loads that exceed the capability of the generator?

 

Thank you all very much.

 

William Miller

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Long transmission line inductance and LED light flicker

[Troy Harvey]

Richard,

The system configuration is:
Approx 24.7kW of modules connected to:
2 x 9kW Sunnyboys
1 x 5kW Sunnyboys
Plus
4 x 6kW sunnyislands, with
2 Parallel 48V Strings of (12 x 4V Surrettes ) using 350MCM cable

Wire
The wire is about 1000 feet long 350 MCM in a "twisted" bundle to this 
outbuilding

Conditions
The conditions were during the day with full sun, so during the test there is 
approx. 47kW of available inverter pointed at only >15 amps (120V) of load(!).
The steady state conditions was a few LED lights, maybe 60 watts worth, plus a 
handful of vampire loads, maybe 100-200 watts total. When a pure resistance 
load, like a 1000W curling iron was turned on the lights would flicker.

Since the lights flickered from a resistive load, but didn't stay dim, I 
assumed it was from a reactive-phase issues due to the transient  turn-on - 
screwing with the LED dimmer circuits which are already doing a bit of magic to 
turn TRIAC waveforms into a DC constant current.


thanks,

Troy Harvey
-
Principal Engineer
Heliocentric
801-453-9434
tahar...@heliocentric.org



On Feb 3, 2014, at 8:33 AM, Richard L Ratico  
wrote:

> Hi Troy,
> 
> I'm assuming this is off grid. Could you please provide details for the system
> (inverters, batteries, etc.). 
> A single, sudden, 20 amp load is not necessarily small relative to the size of
> the system. Is the load 120V or 240 V?
> 
> Dick Ratico
> Solarwind Electric
> 
> 
> --- You wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Troy Harvey wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> We've got a PV system that has long lines from the inverters to the house
>> (1000 ft or so). While the wires are properly sized (2x350MCMs), it
>> inherently has a lot of inductance due to the line-length. What We are
>> noticing is that dimmable LED lights flicker anytime a new load turned on,
>> even if that load is purely resistive and the overall current draw is small
>> (20 amps or so). What I "think" is happening is the LED dimmer circuits get
>> their cue from phase delays, and that the inductance of the line length
>> causes some phase jitter everytime a load is applied - thus causing flicker.
>> 
>> Has anyone dealt with this issue successfully (other than switching
>> to incandescent lights)? Would a static capacitor bank at the house do the
>> trick, or do we need some type of active PFC? And if static did you have
>> any issues with constant power draw from the capacitors?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Troy Harvey
>> -
>> Heliocentric
>> 
> --- end of quote ---
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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Solenoid Coil Current

[frank]

Depending on load current. You may want to consider using a low on 
resistance N mos fet as the switching element.

There is almost no stand operating current.

Frank Lewon


On 2/11/2014 6:43 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

We're preparing to offer Lithium batteries to some of our customers as 
a replacement to lead acid in recreational vehicles. RV batteries can 
have multiple charge sources simultaneously so I have worked out 
protective circuitry to interface with a EMS computer. To insure 
failsafe operation, I need to install 2 solenoids that will be active 
24/7, opening only when fault conditions are met.


The solenoids I have looked at (200 amp) have a coil current of about 
1 ampere each which equates to 600Wh daily consumption. I'de like to 
reduce that BUT the computer only provides a +12v or 0 volt state.


  * Does anyone know of a latching solenoid that will work with a 12v
hi/lo voltage state,
  * OR an interface or circuit for hi/lo to control latching relay
  * OR a solenoid with a very low quiescent current when on?


Many thanks in advance,

Larry Crutcher







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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Solenoid Coil Current

[Exeltech]

Larry,

A latching relay isn't suitable for fail-safe applications.
 
Look into the "Kilovac Czonka III EV200HAANA".  This series has a coil 
"economizer" that reduces coil current (and thus power consumption) after 
pull-in.  Rated coil power is less than 2 watts.  Models are good to 900Vdc and 
up to 500A.
 
Coil inrush current on one model I found is spec'd at 3.8 A for a 130 
milliseconds, so you'd need an external transistor to drive it from the 
computer.  If power consumption is a critical aspect, use a suitable MOSFET.  
If you don't mind wasting another watt or two, a bipolar NPN will also work.  
The coil current throttles back to less than 100 mA at 12Vdc after contact 
closure.  Because a specialized electronic power supply is driving the coil, 
Kilovac rates the DC input to the coil driver at anything from 9Vdc to 36Vdc.
 
Here's the Allied page: 
http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70062411
 
Not cheap .. but excellent quality.  If you're a registered reseller with 
Allied, the $ is less.
 
 
Dan


On Tue, 2/11/14, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
 wrote:

Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Solenoid Coil Current
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Date: Tuesday, February 11, 2014, 6:43 PM
 
Hello Wrenches,
 
We're preparing to offer Lithium batteries to some of our customers as a 
replacement to lead acid in recreational vehicles. RV batteries can have 
multiple charge sources simultaneously so I have worked out protective 
circuitry to interface with a EMS computer. To insure failsafe operation, I 
need to install 2 solenoids that will be active 24/7, opening only when fault 
conditions are met.
 
The solenoids I have looked at (200 amp) have a coil current of about 1 ampere 
each which equates to 600Wh daily consumption. I'de like to reduce that BUT the 
computer only provides a +12v or 0 volt state. 

  *  Does anyone know of a latching solenoid that will work with a 12v hi/lo 
voltage state,
  *  OR an interface or circuit for hi/lo to control latching relay
  *  OR a solenoid with a very low quiescent current when on? 

Many thanks in advance, 

Larry Crutcher


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[RE-wrenches] DC Solenoid Coil Current

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hello Wrenches,

We're preparing to offer Lithium batteries to some of our customers as a 
replacement to lead acid in recreational vehicles. RV batteries can have 
multiple charge sources simultaneously so I have worked out protective 
circuitry to interface with a EMS computer. To insure failsafe operation, I 
need to install 2 solenoids that will be active 24/7, opening only when fault 
conditions are met.

The solenoids I have looked at (200 amp) have a coil current of about 1 ampere 
each which equates to 600Wh daily consumption. I'de like to reduce that BUT the 
computer only provides a +12v or 0 volt state. 

Does anyone know of a latching solenoid that will work with a 12v hi/lo voltage 
state,
OR an interface or circuit for hi/lo to control latching relay
OR a solenoid with a very low quiescent current when on? 

Many thanks in advance, 

Larry Crutcher





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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Fusing/Breakers for Battery Circuits

[Ray Walters]

Boltswitch used to make pullout discos for the smaller R fuses too.  You 
can use them, but they are a time delay fuse, so you need to look at 
trip curves for sizing (don't just substitute the same amp rated RK5 for 
a T)
The R fuses are physically much larger, and are rated to 300 vdc, class 
T to 160 vdc.  The AIC ratings seem to be similar 20,000 amps, though.


I would favor the Boltswitch pullout with T fuses for these reasons:
1) its lower cost
2) It will trip faster than any breaker or RK5 in an actual fault.
3) It takes up much less space than 3 breakers in their own enclosure.
4)  It disconnects 3 strings with one move.
5) The fuses and holder would handle corrosion better than the 
complicated internal workings of a breaker

(my opinion: not proven fact)

I should also add that I'm normally a big fan of breakers, and would 
still have inverter disconnect breakers in the system as well.  I'm only 
advocating the class T Bolt switch solution for fusing separate parallel 
battery strings, close to the battery box.




R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 2/11/2014 11:32 AM, August Goers wrote:


Hi Wrenches,

I've seen a lot of posts lately all mentioning Class T for battery 
fusing. Does anyone know if Class R is acceptable for battery fusing? 
I looked back at an old John Wiles doc and it seems like RK5 is fine, 
but would like to hear your opinion.


http://www.nmsu.edu/~tdi/pdf-resources/cc67.pdf 



-August

*From:*August Goers [mailto:aug...@luminalt.com 
]

*Sent:* Friday, February 07, 2014 4:36 PM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] DC Fusing/Breakers for Battery Circuits

Hi All,

Correction: Another Wrench member contacted me off-list and noticed 
that we have a class RK5 in one photo and a T in the other photo. This 
opens up the question of whether one or both are correct or incorrect. 
I think both are rated for 20k AIC for DC voltage but I'll have to 
look through my order records to be certain. The R is slow acting and 
the T is fast acting.


Best,

August

*From:*August Goers [mailto:aug...@luminalt.com]
*Sent:* Friday, February 07, 2014 3:32 PM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] DC Fusing/Breakers for Battery Circuits

Hi Dan,

I've been wondering the same think. We've been fusing with a class T 
in the battery box and grounding the negative side of the batteries. 
See attached pics. Do you feel that the fuses should be outside of the 
battery box?


Best,

August

Luminalt Energy

*From:*re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dan Fink

*Sent:* Friday, February 07, 2014 9:27 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Fusing/Breakers for Battery Circuits

Does anyone have any elegant solutions to this? It's really time 
consuming and ugly to run big parallel battery string wires *out* of 
the battery enclosure to class T fuses, then back into the battery 
box. It looks very ugly and DIY, and in conduit adds a few hundred to 
the install cost just for labor. The Class T fuses and blocks 
themselves are not particularly expensive.


I have been recommending parallel fusing on battery banks of 2x8 L16s 
and over now, after a nearly tragic incident with a bad cell that 
shorted. The (perfectly legal) wooden battery box made the fire much 
worse. A pet peeve of mine.



Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island battery OCP

[penobscotsolar]

Hi William,
   I wonder as well. About two months ago we installed a 20 kW off grid
system using two SI6048's with Midnite Solar's BOS and while it made
for an extremely heavy (two piece) powerpanel, it has performed very
wel and seems that Midnite has done the homework for us in providing
excellent OCP. They are definitely worth a look.

Daryl



> HI William,
>
> I agree with your choices below, but I"m  curious why you decided against
> the midnite Epanel for the SI?
>
> thanks
>
> jay
>
> peltz power
>
>
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 9:33 PM,  wrote:
>
>> Friends:
>>
>> Thanks for all of the replies.  Here is what I have learned so far
>>
>> 1.   The SMA fuse blocks are not UL listed for installation in the
>> USofA.
>> 2.   The Square D switches are not high enough in amperage for
>> battery circuits.
>> 3.   The bolt-switch idea is great if you want fuses and a pullout.
>> Not for me.
>> 4.   Our solution will be an Outback FX 1000 with three 250 amp
>> breakers.
>>
>> I am not that thrilled with the lack of information or BOS on the Sunny
>> Island line.  SMA was very vague about recommended OCP value and wire
>> gauge.  This is not in the spirit I am use to.  I understand a
>> disclaimer, but please, give it up with a rule of thumb to get us
>> started.  I finally received a broad hint that for the SI4548 or the SI
>> 6048 the recommendation is for 250 amp breakers and 4/0 wire within
>> reasonable distances.
>>
>> William
>>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers

[Kevin Pegg]

Back when this issue was first discovered, 2007, we did a very in-depth 
analysis, led by an electronics engineer. We could not find any combination of 
band-aids that would provide the customer with a satisfactory solution - ie a 
power system that will run any load, regardless of generator operation. 

A detailed report of the issue was sent to Outback techs. We thought they would 
be appreciative and use to solve. Their response was basically "ya, we know and 
don't care because people shouldn't be using generators anyway". We were all 
really shocked at the response, not what we were expecting. 

I will dig through archives and see if I can locate a copy of that report. 

Glad I stuck with the decision to not use this product, sounds like it's saved 
many headaches. 

Kevin

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of
m...@solar-energy-solutions.com
Sent: February 10, 2014 4:09 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers


Wrenches,

Based on Kevin's comments about Outback Chargers in the HUP thread I am
hopeful that some of you well-versed in the off grid world can assist. 
Particularly I am curious if others can confirm deficiencies with Outback
chargers and suggest strategies for overcoming these deficiencies.

I currently have an off grid site with significant charging difficulty. 
The site has been online around eight years with a quad VFX3648 stack. 
Around six months ago the client began experiencing more generator issues
(he had certainly had occasional problems before but engine overruns
became almost a weekly occurrence which, considering the client is only
there on the weekends except during hunting season, is not good).  The
client decided to buy a new generator based on a comment from Outback.
They suggested his old 15 kW Briggs with mechanical governor should have
the governor replaced with an electronic governor.  This couldn't be done
so he bought a new GE 20 kW with electronic governor.  The GE does not
work with the Outback chargers at all (sounds like immediate overrun) but
will run the home just fine (and pass-thru Outback with chargers off).

I am about at the point of asking the client to buy Iotas.  However, we
have a Honda 6500 that has worked as a backup generator for this system
and that has worked for other Outback systems we have installed.  The
Honda no longer works well with this Outback system (routinely disconnects
after a few minutes charging and won't charge more than a few amps per
port).  Something has obviously changed for the Honda to no longer work
well and I am beginning to think that maybe I am missing something else. 
We have checked grounding and switched around inverters to run off dual
stacks without any noticeable difference.  The client has tried three
separate generators at this point and none work very well.  After eight
years the batteries aren't in great shape but they hold a charge and
should be capable of more years of service (Surrette YS).  Outback tech
support seems willing to listen and empathize but incapable of helping me
identify the issue.

Any advice is welcome.

Thanks,

Matt



Matthew Partymiller
Solar Energy Solutions LLC
(859) 312-7456
m...@solar-energy-solutions.com

> "Has anybody scoped ac line to VFX's under full charge load? I'm curious
> about harmonics possibly being the culprit "
>
> Yes, it's pretty nasty. This is why we stopped using Outback products for
> off-grid sites with significant use of generator charging. Not only are
> the chargers really wimpy, we found all manner of harmonics caused by the
> charger circuit. Loads ran fine on inverter; fine on generator but would
> not run at all or reliably with gen running in charge mode.
>
> It took some time to figure this out. Ended up having to tear out several
> new outback systems & replace with another brand to keep customers happy.
>
> What we have done successfully for sites where the customer doesn't want
> to replace the Outback is install a bank of external battery chargers, ie
> the Iota DLS series and use those for gen charging purposes only.
> Sub-optimal in a lot of respects but that's what happens when a client
> buys hardware and says "make it all work". A DC genset would be way more
> efficient.
>
> Another thought have you tried another breaker on the gen? Weak breakers
> do happen, have seen that on brand new gensets.
>
> Kevin
>




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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Fusing/Breakers for Battery Circuits

[August Goers]

Hi Wrenches,



I've seen a lot of posts lately all mentioning Class T for battery fusing.
Does anyone know if Class R is acceptable for battery fusing? I looked back
at an old John Wiles doc and it seems like RK5 is fine, but would like to
hear your opinion.



http://www.nmsu.edu/~tdi/pdf-resources/cc67.pdf



-August



*From:* August Goers [mailto:aug...@luminalt.com]
*Sent:* Friday, February 07, 2014 4:36 PM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] DC Fusing/Breakers for Battery Circuits



Hi All,



Correction: Another Wrench member contacted me off-list and noticed that we
have a class RK5 in one photo and a T in the other photo. This opens up the
question of whether one or both are correct or incorrect. I think both are
rated for 20k AIC for DC voltage but I'll have to look through my order
records to be certain. The R is slow acting and the T is fast acting.



Best,



August



*From:* August Goers [mailto:aug...@luminalt.com ]
*Sent:* Friday, February 07, 2014 3:32 PM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] DC Fusing/Breakers for Battery Circuits



Hi Dan,



I've been wondering the same think. We've been fusing with a class T in the
battery box and grounding the negative side of the batteries. See attached
pics. Do you feel that the fuses should be outside of the battery box?



Best,



August



Luminalt Energy



*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
*On Behalf Of *Dan Fink
*Sent:* Friday, February 07, 2014 9:27 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Fusing/Breakers for Battery Circuits



Does anyone have any elegant solutions to this? It's really time consuming
and ugly to run big parallel battery string wires *out* of the battery
enclosure to class T fuses, then back into the battery box. It looks very
ugly and DIY, and in conduit adds a few hundred to the install cost just
for labor. The Class T fuses and blocks themselves are not particularly
expensive.

I have been recommending parallel fusing on battery banks of 2x8 L16s and
over now, after a nearly tragic incident with a bad cell that shorted. The
(perfectly legal) wooden battery box made the fire much worse. A pet peeve
of mine.




Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers

[bruce]

Good Heads Up Dan! Thank you. Good excuse for me to get dialed in on a scope meter. I will make an analysis of the lines and submit my findings to Outback before installing the caps and potentially creating warranty issues...Bruce 


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers
From: Exeltech 
Date: Mon, February 10, 2014 9:37 pm
To: RE-wrenches 

Bruce,

The capacitors may or may not help, and could make things worse.  If you've already encountered and solved this exact issue on other identical systems .. carry on.

If not ... 

Switching power supplies have a double-whammy of being non-linear AND reactive.  The reactive component is almost always a capacitive "front end" in the power supply.  If the predominent issue happens to be harmonics .. then power-factor correction capacitors MAY help by filtering out some of the higher frequency aspects.  If the predominent issue is the reactive front end of the power supply .. caps could make the situation worse.

As a side-note, PF correction caps connected across the output of an inverter can cause the inverter's voltage control loop to go unstable, and blow the inverter.  Not a guaranteed failure .. but an enhanced possibility.


Dan


On Mon, 2/10/14, br...@willpowerelect.com  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers
 To: "RE-wrenches" 
 Date: Monday, February 10, 2014, 10:43 PM
 
Matt,

I don't have a lot of experience with undersized generators for the application, but I will share some thoughts about my recent experience.
Having 3 VFX 3648 on a 12 kw Kohler, the math said I shouldn't have difficulty getting 7 kw total charge current which would put 135 amps into the battery.

My experience said the imbalanced load of 2 VFX on one leg and 1 on the other may cause problems. To address that issue I installed an autoformer.

The best compromise/solution so far is one VFX on each leg dialed back to 15 amps maximum charge current. This gives 3.6kw total charge current or about 70 amps ~52 volts. The third VFX (master) is programmed at 0 charge but maximum ac. It's only job is to invert or pass through. The two slaves don't have to worry about adjusting for loads, just charging.

Why can't we get more power? Switching power supplies in the chargers that create harmonics not readable by your standard amp meter, and that inherently, chargers seem to use only a portion of the sine wave presented to them. Harmonics of several orders induce current into the line and the windings of a generator. Some breakers are also susceptible.

In my case, a 70 amp breaker is tripping after a period of time with less than 8kw of charger. I have not yet scoped the line but I suspect the other 50-60% of load is harmonics.

Possible solution: I have found some power correction capacitors (600 Kvar @ 480, should give me 300 Kvar @ 240) that I'm going to put in a box and hang on the wall next to the VFX's. The VFX's will get scared and stop doing that! No, seriously, I'll wire the capacitor bank to the ac input busses of the FW 500 and they'll soak up a lot of the ripples that are trying to get back to the generator.
It may take a week or so to get back up there, but I'll let you know how it works.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers

[toddcory]

this is good advice, but beware: if you set the time too low, the inverter will 
never go to sleep. this is an issue with grid tie units where you do not want 
the inverter wasting power, running all night long.
 
todd
 
 
 
On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 7:03am, "Doug Wells" 
 said:



> Kevin,
> 
> I am curious about what you are seeing on the Outbacks as well.
> Have dozens of these out in the field.  They have been pretty reliable for me.
> The biggest issue that I have had with them is when the inverters are 
> transferring
> from generator charging back to inversion.
> If you leave this at the factory default, 1 s, you will see light flicker, and
> sensitive electronics will go into error.
> This transfer rate can be adjusted down and has cured most of the power 
> quality
> issues with the battery charging.
> A different issue than harmonics under load, but it might help.
> 
> Doug Wells
> The Solar Specialists
> Morrisville, VT 05661
> (p) 802-223-7014
> (c) 802-498-5856
> www.thesolarspecialists.com
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers

[Steve Higgins]

Hey guys,

The FX's have always been rough to generator waveforms, back some 9-10 years 
ago there was a case in Alaska that identified that they (FX's) don't play well 
with capacitive coupled regulators.  We brought in several generators and the 
guys in engineering worked on a fix but never found one other than a $500.00 
dollar tank circuit filter that most of the time didn't work.

At that point anything with a capacitive coupled regulator would have to be 
backed way off, and would cause a really nasty flicker of the Lights/loads when 
the inverter was charging the battery bank.

Electronically regulated regulators work better, but the way the inverter 
measures ac input amperage can also be way off.  I've seen the metering display 
7 amps when indeed the actual current pull was closer to 10-11 amps.   This is 
most often the cause of the mystery breaker tripping.

One of the things I always did that worked pretty well was.

Turn the charge rates down to zero.
Start the Genset, wait till connection.
Edge the charge rates up 1 amp at a time to see how much the genset can handle.

I've usually found that at about 60-70% of the rated current is where the sweet 
spot is.

Another issue that I've seen come up affect multiple stacks of inverters 
regardless of their manufacture.  Most inverter/chargers in this market are 
Voltage Controlled chargers.  This means that current follows voltage, if 
voltage is low then current is high... once voltage get to say Absorb voltage 
the combination of the inverter seeing the absorb voltage and the battery no 
longer is accepting max current the amount of current flowing drastically 
drops.   This tends to drive customers/installers crazy on how to maximize the 
amount of current flowing into the battery.  Remember, once you get past the 
Bulk Charging stage you cannot force current into a battery, it's only going to 
accept what it can.

A secondary issue to this is when you have multiple chargers connected to the 
same battery bank. Very often if you have a quad stack of Outback's you will 
see on or two inverters charging while the rest of the inverters are sleeping, 
this is normal as nobody's products to my knowledge share charging information 
that will equally divide charging current between the sources.

Just something else to chew on Altitude will also affect how well the 
generator operates, as the higher you go the thinner the air the less 
efficiently the fuel burns.


Steve Higgins
Technical Services Manager
P: 800.681.9914
M: 206.790.5840
F: 902.597.8447
Surrette Battery Company

http://www.rollsbattery.com

Steve Higgins
Technical Services Manager
M: +1.206.790.5840
F: +1.902.597.8447
Surrette Battery Company
Exclusive manufacturer of


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] on behalf of Doug Wells 
[dwe...@thesolarspecialists.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 11:03 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers

Kevin,

I am curious about what you are seeing on the Outbacks as well.
Have dozens of these out in the field.  They have been pretty reliable for me.
The biggest issue that I have had with them is when the inverters are 
transferring from generator charging back to inversion.
If you leave this at the factory default, 1 s, you will see light flicker, and 
sensitive electronics will go into error.
This transfer rate can be adjusted down and has cured most of the power quality 
issues with the battery charging.
A different issue than harmonics under load, but it might help.

Doug Wells
The Solar Specialists
Morrisville, VT 05661
(p) 802-223-7014
(c) 802-498-5856
www.thesolarspecialists.com



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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Fusing/Breakers for Battery Circuits

[Doug Wells]

Dan,

Wanted to respond to your comment about wooden battery boxes.
I have many of them in the field and have never had an issue.
Interestingly,  I alway had the perspective, why put something with huge 
current capabilities in a conductive box?
But, I will certainly second the need for series fusing.  
Seems like cheap insurance and I put it in all battery systems both on and off 
grid.
On the fire hazard, I am not so sure.  Hydrogen won't combust until a 
concentration of greater than 4%.
Per NEC, I try to keep hydrogen level below this point.  In recent years I have 
begun installing 2 active vents in all system, in case of failure.
Again... cheap insurance.  This is even on battery banks as small as 700AH.
So, I hear your concern and maybe some kind of firewall would be wise.
But, I don't see wood boxes as any great threat if done well.
Maybe I am slightly numbed after witnessing all of the crazy home brew battery 
set ups in the back woods here.
Have seen some very sketchy off grid battery installations.


Doug Wells
The Solar Specialists
Morrisville, VT 05661
(p) 802-223-7014
(c) 802-498-5856
www.thesolarspecialists.com


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers

[Chris Mason]

One of the issues to be aware of is power factor, and most people will not
be able to determine power factor. If the Outback operates at a poor power
factor, your 10KW generator will become a about a 6KW generator. A lot of
the current will be wasted and will not produce charging power.



On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 11:25 AM, jay peltz  wrote:

> Hi Matt,
>
> With two systems on the thread right now with pretty much the same
> problem, I am suspecting a problem with one or more inverters. Most all the
> Outback inverter issues I've have been have been on stacked systems.
> Having installed a lot of these inverters I have yet to see the exact
> problems cited here.  Usually I've seen it with much smaller generators vs
> inverter size, but not with what I would call properly oversized units.
>  And because it is with charger issues, turning down the charge rate, but
> leaving generator size accurate has proved to be quite successful.
>
> I would try to run the inverters such that you can test to see how they
> are each working.
> For the quad stack, try 2 at full tilt, then the other 2 and see if you
> can find something there, might take some rewiring to test all combos.
> For the tri stack, well you get the drift.
>
> jay
> peltz power
>
>
>
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:09 PM, m...@solar-energy-solutions.com wrote:
>
> > Wrenches,
> >
> > Based on Kevin's comments about Outback Chargers in the HUP thread I am
> > hopeful that some of you well-versed in the off grid world can assist.
> > Particularly I am curious if others can confirm deficiencies with Outback
> > chargers and suggest strategies for overcoming these deficiencies.
> >
> > I currently have an off grid site with significant charging difficulty.
> > The site has been online around eight years with a quad VFX3648 stack.
> > Around six months ago the client began experiencing more generator issues
> > (he had certainly had occasional problems before but engine overruns
> > became almost a weekly occurrence which, considering the client is only
> > there on the weekends except during hunting season, is not good).  The
> > client decided to buy a new generator based on a comment from Outback.
> > They suggested his old 15 kW Briggs with mechanical governor should have
> > the governor replaced with an electronic governor.  This couldn't be done
> > so he bought a new GE 20 kW with electronic governor.  The GE does not
> > work with the Outback chargers at all (sounds like immediate overrun) but
> > will run the home just fine (and pass-thru Outback with chargers off).
> >
> > I am about at the point of asking the client to buy Iotas.  However, we
> > have a Honda 6500 that has worked as a backup generator for this system
> > and that has worked for other Outback systems we have installed.  The
> > Honda no longer works well with this Outback system (routinely
> disconnects
> > after a few minutes charging and won't charge more than a few amps per
> > port).  Something has obviously changed for the Honda to no longer work
> > well and I am beginning to think that maybe I am missing something else.
> > We have checked grounding and switched around inverters to run off dual
> > stacks without any noticeable difference.  The client has tried three
> > separate generators at this point and none work very well.  After eight
> > years the batteries aren't in great shape but they hold a charge and
> > should be capable of more years of service (Surrette YS).  Outback tech
> > support seems willing to listen and empathize but incapable of helping me
> > identify the issue.
> >
> > Any advice is welcome.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Matt
> >
> >
> >
>
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-- 
Chris Mason
President, Comet Systems Ltd
www.cometenergysystems.com
Cell: 264.235.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers

[jay peltz]

Hi Matt,

With two systems on the thread right now with pretty much the same problem, I 
am suspecting a problem with one or more inverters. Most all the Outback 
inverter issues I've have been have been on stacked systems.
Having installed a lot of these inverters I have yet to see the exact problems 
cited here.  Usually I've seen it with much smaller generators vs inverter 
size, but not with what I would call properly oversized units.  And because it 
is with charger issues, turning down the charge rate, but leaving generator 
size accurate has proved to be quite successful.  

I would try to run the inverters such that you can test to see how they are 
each working.  
For the quad stack, try 2 at full tilt, then the other 2 and see if you can 
find something there, might take some rewiring to test all combos.
For the tri stack, well you get the drift.

jay
peltz power



On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:09 PM, m...@solar-energy-solutions.com wrote:

> Wrenches,
> 
> Based on Kevin's comments about Outback Chargers in the HUP thread I am
> hopeful that some of you well-versed in the off grid world can assist. 
> Particularly I am curious if others can confirm deficiencies with Outback
> chargers and suggest strategies for overcoming these deficiencies.
> 
> I currently have an off grid site with significant charging difficulty. 
> The site has been online around eight years with a quad VFX3648 stack. 
> Around six months ago the client began experiencing more generator issues
> (he had certainly had occasional problems before but engine overruns
> became almost a weekly occurrence which, considering the client is only
> there on the weekends except during hunting season, is not good).  The
> client decided to buy a new generator based on a comment from Outback.
> They suggested his old 15 kW Briggs with mechanical governor should have
> the governor replaced with an electronic governor.  This couldn't be done
> so he bought a new GE 20 kW with electronic governor.  The GE does not
> work with the Outback chargers at all (sounds like immediate overrun) but
> will run the home just fine (and pass-thru Outback with chargers off).
> 
> I am about at the point of asking the client to buy Iotas.  However, we
> have a Honda 6500 that has worked as a backup generator for this system
> and that has worked for other Outback systems we have installed.  The
> Honda no longer works well with this Outback system (routinely disconnects
> after a few minutes charging and won't charge more than a few amps per
> port).  Something has obviously changed for the Honda to no longer work
> well and I am beginning to think that maybe I am missing something else. 
> We have checked grounding and switched around inverters to run off dual
> stacks without any noticeable difference.  The client has tried three
> separate generators at this point and none work very well.  After eight
> years the batteries aren't in great shape but they hold a charge and
> should be capable of more years of service (Surrette YS).  Outback tech
> support seems willing to listen and empathize but incapable of helping me
> identify the issue.
> 
> Any advice is welcome.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Matt
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers

[Doug Wells]

Kevin,

I am curious about what you are seeing on the Outbacks as well.
Have dozens of these out in the field.  They have been pretty reliable for me.
The biggest issue that I have had with them is when the inverters are 
transferring from generator charging back to inversion.
If you leave this at the factory default, 1 s, you will see light flicker, and 
sensitive electronics will go into error.
This transfer rate can be adjusted down and has cured most of the power quality 
issues with the battery charging.
A different issue than harmonics under load, but it might help.

Doug Wells
The Solar Specialists
Morrisville, VT 05661
(p) 802-223-7014
(c) 802-498-5856
www.thesolarspecialists.com



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island battery OCP

[jay peltz]

HI William,

I agree with your choices below, but I"m  curious why you decided against the 
midnite Epanel for the SI?

thanks

jay

peltz power


On Feb 10, 2014, at 9:33 PM,  wrote:

> Friends:
>  
> Thanks for all of the replies.  Here is what I have learned so far
>  
> 1.   The SMA fuse blocks are not UL listed for installation in the USofA.
> 2.   The Square D switches are not high enough in amperage for battery 
> circuits.
> 3.   The bolt-switch idea is great if you want fuses and a pullout.  Not 
> for me.
> 4.   Our solution will be an Outback FX 1000 with three 250 amp breakers.
>  
> I am not that thrilled with the lack of information or BOS on the Sunny 
> Island line.  SMA was very vague about recommended OCP value and wire gauge.  
> This is not in the spirit I am use to.  I understand a disclaimer, but 
> please, give it up with a rule of thumb to get us started.  I finally 
> received a broad hint that for the SI4548 or the SI 6048 the recommendation 
> is for 250 amp breakers and 4/0 wire within reasonable distances.
>  
> William
>  

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