Re: [RE-wrenches] Bergey Excel 1 wind generator issues

[b...@midnitesolar.com]

Ray will also hopefully respond here.  Bergey opted to sell the 
combination of Classic,  turbine control box and XL.1 turbine and take 
on the
warranty for  over-voltage installations, like this one .  The data logs 
show 400+ volts which is as high as the CL250 goes. They assumed that their
blade design will self limit the RPM and thus, the highest voltage 
produced in most situations.  The Clipper makes the system cost more.
I am surprised at how many of these systems have survived without the 
Clipper.  High sustained winds is the problem.
If a storm is brewing and the customer is at the sight, at least there 
is a brake switch in the control box so that could be set before-hand.
The Clipper can keep the turbine speed down to approximately what is 
needed to keep the controller in the Absorb or Float stage and
keep down noise and bearing wear as well as the voltage.  The dump load 
resistor values have been tweaked for the XL.1 so

it works pretty well when the AC Clipper is used.

One thing that a single 48V nominal turbine and using MPPT for wind does 
is to keep from having to stock and sell multiple skews.
They have also shipped many turbine stators that were wound wrong 
more like 24V.  Those will work ~OK~ for 24V systems but not
very well for 48V. Unfortunately, the 48V customers that receive those 
stators have had to call Bergey and get new stators,
(wound for 48V),  which they have to swap out.  It seems to me that it 
would be much easier just to ship the correctly
wound stators or at least find out what battery voltage the system is 
designed for so they can ship the lower voltage

stators for 24V or 12V systems.

boB





On 2/19/2014 6:56 PM, All Solar, Inc. wrote:

Ray,
Are you referring to Midnite's wind turbine control box, which is what 
comes with the Bergey?
It does not include any diversion for slowing the turbine. I 
questioned why they did not use the clipper, but did not really get an 
answer. We have installed 2 of the Excel 1s in the last 6 months with 
no problems.  I also believe the clipper would take care of it, just 
have no experience with it yet.


Jeremy Rodriguez,
President

All Solar, Inc.
1463 M
Penrose Colorado 81240
719-372-3808 office
719-372-3804 fax
www.asolarelectric.com 

Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!

On Feb 19, 2014, at 2:27 PM, Ray Walters > wrote:


We've done some research on this, as we're doing an XL.1 project at 
12 v right now.
I don't have first hand experience with the Clipper yet, but I have 
over a decade of XL.1 experience and many years with Midnite's 
electronics.  The Clipper is exactly what is needed.  It also moves 
the rectifier down to the ground, and offers a braking disconnect 
system to shut the turbine down completely if needed.
The Classic by itself isn't really controlling the turbine speed, and 
counting on the XL,1 mechanical governing design by itself is 
definitely full hardy.
Unfortunately, Bergey's new staff is not really up to full speed yet 
on what is needed to make their turbines work long term.  At least 
they've abandoned the old XL.1 controller. Hopefully the turbine 
itself hasn't changed too much; I've seen them survive some very high 
speed winds and direct lightning strikes.

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 2/19/2014 1:39 PM, Chris Daum wrote:

Hello Wrenches:
We have a customer who's got one of the Excel One wind gennies, and 
he's burnt up two Classic controllers (overvoltagethe 2nd time 
it got over 400V before it burnt up).  Bergey's been dragging their 
feet as to why this is happening; they're saying it's probably an 
"upslope site" where the RPM just gets too high, among other things. 
Metering tests prove that the stator is OK.
They also said that Midnite Solar has a 'clipper' to prevent 
overvoltage; do any of you have any experience with this device?  
It's ~$1200, and of course there is no mention of this on Bergey's 
web site or in their XL.1 manual.
I have several other XL.1s in the general area, but they are on 
their old 24V controller.  So I am looking for more information on 
anyone who's using this 'clipper'.

Please feel free to contact me off list.
Thanks!
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Bergey Excel 1 wind generator issues

[Ray Walters]

Hi Jeremy;

I'm referring to the Clipper.  It includes everything that the regular 
control box MNTCB includes: rectifier, bypass/ brake switching, but also 
has the voltage limiting control circuit, and dump resistors.  Midnite 
sells several size resistors, so I'm waiting to find out which ohm 
rating is best for the XL.1 with the 24 v MS stator.
Apparently, Bergey has had 4 different stators.  Only the new ones 24 MS 
and 48 MS are compatible with the Midnite Classic's MPPT.  I don't know 
what date they went to the newer stators, but the old XL.1s would need 
to update the stator.


Mad scientist time:
It might also be possible to just remove the rectifier at the turbine, 
and then run the 3 phase current through a transformer, before the 
Clipper to get the voltage high enough for MPPT.  You'd need to add a 
3rd conductor too Still no way to do it without dropping the 
tower...h, time to sleep.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 2/19/2014 7:56 PM, All Solar, Inc. wrote:

Ray,
Are you referring to Midnite's wind turbine control box, which is what 
comes with the Bergey?
It does not include any diversion for slowing the turbine. I 
questioned why they did not use the clipper, but did not really get an 
answer. We have installed 2 of the Excel 1s in the last 6 months with 
no problems.  I also believe the clipper would take care of it, just 
have no experience with it yet.


Jeremy Rodriguez,
President

All Solar, Inc.
1463 M
Penrose Colorado 81240
719-372-3808 office
719-372-3804 fax
www.asolarelectric.com 

Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!

On Feb 19, 2014, at 2:27 PM, Ray Walters > wrote:


We've done some research on this, as we're doing an XL.1 project at 
12 v right now.
I don't have first hand experience with the Clipper yet, but I have 
over a decade of XL.1 experience and many years with Midnite's 
electronics.  The Clipper is exactly what is needed.  It also moves 
the rectifier down to the ground, and offers a braking disconnect 
system to shut the turbine down completely if needed.
The Classic by itself isn't really controlling the turbine speed, and 
counting on the XL,1 mechanical governing design by itself is 
definitely full hardy.
Unfortunately, Bergey's new staff is not really up to full speed yet 
on what is needed to make their turbines work long term.  At least 
they've abandoned the old XL.1 controller. Hopefully the turbine 
itself hasn't changed too much; I've seen them survive some very high 
speed winds and direct lightning strikes.

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 2/19/2014 1:39 PM, Chris Daum wrote:

Hello Wrenches:
We have a customer who's got one of the Excel One wind gennies, and 
he's burnt up two Classic controllers (overvoltagethe 2nd time 
it got over 400V before it burnt up).  Bergey's been dragging their 
feet as to why this is happening; they're saying it's probably an 
"upslope site" where the RPM just gets too high, among other things. 
Metering tests prove that the stator is OK.
They also said that Midnite Solar has a 'clipper' to prevent 
overvoltage; do any of you have any experience with this device?  
It's ~$1200, and of course there is no mention of this on Bergey's 
web site or in their XL.1 manual.
I have several other XL.1s in the general area, but they are on 
their old 24V controller.  So I am looking for more information on 
anyone who's using this 'clipper'.

Please feel free to contact me off list.
Thanks!
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309


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Re: [RE-wrenches] California State Fire Marshal's "Solar Photovoltaic Installation Guidelines"

[Jerry Shafer]

Wrenches
I have had two buildings involved in a fire after we were completed and
down the road neither fires had anything to do with our work at all. In one
fire there was a unit next door (common wall) that had an appliance over
heat that was left on while there was no one there and started the fire.
The fire department shut the service down as required, cut into the attic
and made there way through to where they worked on the fire, my metal
conduit had a glove print on it, the inverter was all wet and no one got
hurt. The second fire was the result of an AC contractor pinching a wire
under the home very close to our conduit again power shut off access
reached and fire put out, again no one hot hurt do to the solar being
there, here the insulation on the wire was gone but still inside the
conduit safe. We only use metal conduit from module to inverter and to
meter unless it is underground no fire there.
If we follow simple rules and protect the system where we put the modules
should not be an issue and I understand needing access but then why does
solar hot water not apply to the PV rules for location. If any of you saw
the natural gas fire in northern cal some years back the fire department
did not even get near the roof they put the water cannons on it and ripped
the roof right off the homes, blow through the windows, I know this is not
what always happens but we all need to step back including the fire
marshals and think this through because killing the solar industry is not
the answer.
Jerry


On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 10:22 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:

> Bill H;
> I believe I'm the firefighter you are referring to, and I'm allowed here
> on the Wrenches list because I've been a professional RE installer since
> 1994--still my career-- and a firefighter in a rural area  with a large
> percentage of PV and wind installs. A couple talking points:
>
> ~Thanks Bill Brooks for explaining here why the roofing class ABC rating
> system has nothing to do with firefighter rooftop access/egress.
>
> ~Unfortunately ventilating the other side of the roof doesn't always work,
> wind from the wrong direction, wrong internal compartment in the structure,
> etc. Also we use chainsaws with carbide teeth, the axes are for flipping
> open the roof sections; And egress is a problem...do we hang roof ladders
> from PV modules to escape a roof collapse to the other side?
>
> ~A fire commander will *never* risk the lives of his responders to the
> unknown. Instead the answer will be indirect attack - protect exposures -
> let it burn. As a RE professional it is *your*  job to provide safe designs
> and installations, label everything simply, obviously and properly as to
> what is there and how to shut it off, and more importantly reach out to
> your local fire department with the details on the systems you have
> installed in their response area, so if they get a call there, they know
> exactly what they are dealing with in advance. The more they know, the
> higher the chance they can save the house.
>
> ~ There has been at least one high-profile and high-dollar "let it burn"
> case in the last year. Not good for the PV industry.
>
> Will see many of you in Denver next month. Somehow I feel like I better
> keep watching my back.yikes.
>
> Dan Fink,
> Executive Director;
> Otherpower
> Buckville Energy Consulting
> Buckville Publications LLC
>
> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
> 970.672.4342
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 9:20 AM, Bill Hennessy wrote:
>
>> Andrew--Thank-you for your work to dampen the fire hysteria that's
>> sweeping the roofs of residential solar. Between the ridiculous setbacks
>> (out here you'd never see a firefighter on a house roof swinging an axe,
>> but if so inclined, they could go on the other side of the peak).
>>
>> And now we need to install mythical products for de-energizing and
>> fire-protection racking. Unless the big leasing companies can beat back the
>> anti-solar "safety" club, rooftop residential is toast. PV leaders and
>> consultants have caved. A short time ago, a firefighter (what was he doing
>> on the wrench page anyways?) urged installers not to look at their bottom
>> line and take in the big picture.
>>
>> That is exactly what you are doing in opposing these rules that are set
>> up for problems that don't exist. The firefighting and code making
>> industries are big bucks.
>>
>> Let's see, wrenches and folks who write the code can't figure out what it
>> says. And in our county in PA, there are 90 different permitting agencies
>> that will be reading the same codes and ordering their interpretations
>> before we get a permit.
>>
>> The real big issue is sustainability and climate change and we need to
>> have a society that embraces a rush to PV and not smother it with the love
>> of safety. Want to stop fires? Let's go after toaster ovens.
>>
>> Bill Hennessy
>> Berks Solar, LLC
>>
>>
>>   --
>>  *From:* Solar Energy Solution

Re: [RE-wrenches] Bergey Excel 1 wind generator issues

[All Solar, Inc.]

Ray, 
Are you referring to Midnite's wind turbine control box, which is what comes 
with the Bergey?
It does not include any diversion for slowing the turbine. I questioned why 
they did not use the clipper, but did not really get an answer. We have 
installed 2 of the Excel 1s in the last 6 months with no problems.  I also 
believe the clipper would take care of it, just have no experience with it yet. 
 

Jeremy Rodriguez,
President

All Solar, Inc. 
1463 M
Penrose Colorado 81240
719-372-3808 office
719-372-3804 fax
www.asolarelectric.com

Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!

> On Feb 19, 2014, at 2:27 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:
> 
> We've done some research on this, as we're doing an XL.1 project at 12 v 
> right now.  
> I don't have first hand experience with the Clipper yet, but I have over a 
> decade of XL.1 experience and many years with Midnite's electronics.  The 
> Clipper is exactly what is needed.  It also moves the rectifier down to the 
> ground, and offers a braking disconnect system to shut the turbine down 
> completely if needed.  
> The Classic by itself isn't really controlling the turbine speed, and 
> counting on the XL,1 mechanical governing design by itself is definitely full 
> hardy.
> Unfortunately, Bergey's new staff is not really up to full speed yet on what 
> is needed to make their turbines work long term.  At least they've abandoned 
> the old XL.1 controller.  Hopefully the turbine itself hasn't changed too 
> much; I've seen them survive some very high speed winds and direct lightning 
> strikes.
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
> On 2/19/2014 1:39 PM, Chris Daum wrote:
>> Hello Wrenches:
>>  
>> We have a customer who's got one of the Excel One wind gennies, and he's 
>> burnt up two Classic controllers (overvoltagethe 2nd time it got over 
>> 400V before it burnt up).  Bergey's been dragging their feet as to why this 
>> is happening; they're saying it's probably an "upslope site" where the RPM 
>> just gets too high, among other things.  Metering tests prove that the 
>> stator is OK.
>>  
>> They also said that Midnite Solar has a 'clipper' to prevent overvoltage; do 
>> any of you have any experience with this device?  It's ~$1200, and of course 
>> there is no mention of this on Bergey's web site or in their XL.1 manual.
>>  
>> I have several other XL.1s in the general area, but they are on their old 
>> 24V controller.  So I am looking for more information on anyone who's using 
>> this 'clipper'.
>>  
>> Please feel free to contact me off list.
>>  
>> Thanks!
>>  
>> Chris Daum
>> Oasis Montana Inc.
>> 406-777-4309
>>  
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Bergey Excel 1 wind generator issues

[Ray Walters]

We've done some research on this, as we're doing an XL.1 project at 12 v 
right now.
I don't have first hand experience with the Clipper yet, but I have over 
a decade of XL.1 experience and many years with Midnite's electronics.  
The Clipper is exactly what is needed.  It also moves the rectifier down 
to the ground, and offers a braking disconnect system to shut the 
turbine down completely if needed.
The Classic by itself isn't really controlling the turbine speed, and 
counting on the XL,1 mechanical governing design by itself is definitely 
full hardy.
Unfortunately, Bergey's new staff is not really up to full speed yet on 
what is needed to make their turbines work long term.  At least they've 
abandoned the old XL.1 controller.  Hopefully the turbine itself hasn't 
changed too much; I've seen them survive some very high speed winds and 
direct lightning strikes.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 2/19/2014 1:39 PM, Chris Daum wrote:

Hello Wrenches:
We have a customer who's got one of the Excel One wind gennies, and 
he's burnt up two Classic controllers (overvoltagethe 2nd time it 
got over 400V before it burnt up).  Bergey's been dragging their feet 
as to why this is happening; they're saying it's probably an "upslope 
site" where the RPM just gets too high, among other things.  Metering 
tests prove that the stator is OK.
They also said that Midnite Solar has a 'clipper' to prevent 
overvoltage; do any of you have any experience with this device?  It's 
~$1200, and of course there is no mention of this on Bergey's web site 
or in their XL.1 manual.
I have several other XL.1s in the general area, but they are on their 
old 24V controller.  So I am looking for more information on anyone 
who's using this 'clipper'.

Please feel free to contact me off list.
Thanks!
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309


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[RE-wrenches] Bergey Excel 1 wind generator issues

[Chris Daum]

Hello Wrenches:
 
We have a customer who's got one of the Excel One wind gennies, and he's
burnt up two Classic controllers (overvoltagethe 2nd time it got over
400V before it burnt up).  Bergey's been dragging their feet as to why this
is happening; they're saying it's probably an "upslope site" where the RPM
just gets too high, among other things.  Metering tests prove that the
stator is OK.
 
They also said that Midnite Solar has a 'clipper' to prevent overvoltage; do
any of you have any experience with this device?  It's ~$1200, and of course
there is no mention of this on Bergey's web site or in their XL.1 manual.
 
I have several other XL.1s in the general area, but they are on their old
24V controller.  So I am looking for more information on anyone who's using
this 'clipper'.
 
Please feel free to contact me off list.
 
Thanks!
 
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
 
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[RE-wrenches] Trojan IND9-6V settings with Outback FX and Flexmax 60

[Chris Mason]

I just switched a customer from VRLA batteries to Trojan IND9. I changed
all the battery settings to the numbers recommended by Trojan but I would
be interested to hear any recommendations from experience. Please let me
know if you have experience with the charge and discharge settings for this
combination.

-- 
Chris Mason
President, Comet Solar
www.comets olar.com
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