Re: [RE-wrenches] Pathfinder vs. Suneye
Dana, I have never compared these two side-by-side, but I do know from experience that it is critical to use the proper cropping margins when transferring images in to the Pathfinder Assistant Software. Slight changes in the margins of the field photographs of the Pathfinder tool can have a significant impact on the available access numbers. If you have never tried it, play around with different margins using the same photo and you'll see what I mean. Refer to the manual for the proper location of the crop (from p. 30 of Version 5, 2011): There are four crop handles (left, top, right, bottom). These handles should be dragged so that the translucent box frames the outside of the plastic Pathfinder housing. Mark [USLE Email Signature (240x42)] Mark Richardson Production Manager CELL: 518-965-4148 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 6:38 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pathfinder vs. Suneye Dana, I'm not going to answer your question directly, but rather I'd like to add to Ray's comments. In short. use the SunEye for grid tie work; use the Pathfinder for off grid. If you don't do off grid (most installers don't any more, if they ever did) don't bother with the Pathfinder. Off grid seldom if ever deals with multiple roof angles, as modules aren't typically mounted on roofs. Details: 1. Grid tie is competitive, so you want the most accurate estimate of production. I believe the SunEye is more accurate, or at least more liberal in its output. 2. Your competitors will most likely use the SunEye, so you'll need to offer its level of apparent professionalism, as well as match their output projections. 3. For off grid, I want the inherent conservatism of the Pathfinder; for grid-tie, not so much. I have almost zero history of customers' off grid systems being undersized, in large part because of the inherent conservatism of the Pathfinder, combined with our 37º latitude, as Ray mentioned (meaning we're at the outer edge of the 6º latitude template spread), and also combined with our high-elevation, dry-air insolation often exceeding the standard 1,000 w/m2. Together this meant that my systems typically and routinely exceeded their projected output. Nobody has ever complained about that. 4. Grid tie customers never go on the roof with the designer/salesperson to look at a sunpath chart. They just want the results - a PV system that looks good and saves them money. Off gridders are usually way more involved in the design and customer education process. The Pathfinder sunpath chart is so simple to read that doing charts while picking an array site is a shared part of the educational part of the design/sales process. So it leads to the treasured ah-hah! moment when the client really gets what's going on, and gets fully engaged in the design of their system in the process. They're two different tools serving completely different purposes. I prefer the analog nature of the Pathfinder, but not for the usual and predictable reasons. Allan Sindelar www.sindelarsolar.comhttp://www.sindelarsolar.com Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.commailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 10/28/2014 3:32 PM, Ray Walters wrote: I've not done a side by side comparison, but the Pathfinder seems to be slightly conservative, especially depending on which latitude sheet you are using. I sometimes switch sheets and try both, when the latitude is close to falling between (ie 37 deg, and there is 37 to 43 sheet or a 31 to 37 sheet) Checking against actual sun locations at the solstices, it seems to be close, but I think they would rather err on the side of caution. I've used the Path finders for decades, and find them ideal for discussing shading issues on site with the customer, as every one can look at it at the same time. For more complicated shading analysis, I can see the Suneye being more useful. Depending on the situation, I could see using both, but the Pathfinder is better for off grid, as we don't have accurate insolation values at these remote locations, so detailed analysis has limited value anyway. We're primarily looking at which trees need to be trimmed. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 10/28/2014 3:19 PM, Dana Brandt wrote: Hi Wrenches, We've been using the Pathfinder along with the Pathfinder Assistant software for several years and mostly like it. My concern with it is there's no way to combine two or three shading images to account for a string of modules spanning those different shading conditions. I've spoken with the Pathfinder folks and they don't seem to understand or
[RE-wrenches] SPI 14 Post Show Request for Comments
Gentlemen Ladies, Anyone who went to the LAS show have any comments? Hopefully, not everything that happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. Thanks for sharing, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5315 / Virus Database: 4189/8474 - Release Date: 10/29/14 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Passive Battery Venting
I too saw that these were AGMS. The only time excess H venting happens is with severe over voltage for a period of time. How often will this happen? Have any battery wrenches experienced high volume venting of AGM’s? Our experience: There is no NEC requirements for mobile installations. We have installed over 1000 AGM battery banks with only passive venting some with very little air exchange. Out of all our installs over the last 12 years, the only AGM battery venting I know of is when a customer adjusted his charge controller to 3 Vpc. This caused gassing and thermal run away, melting the side of the Deka AGM battery case. For off grid systems, we provide a simple 2” vertical PVC pipe from the battery box for H gas to escape. My opinion: The cost is low and the risk very low if your customer understands the proper operation. Larry On Oct 29, 2014, at 6:54 AM, Daniel Young dyo...@dovetailsolar.com wrote: I just re-read the original post Drake. These are AGM batteries. Do you have a belt, suspenders,...then a rocket pack type of client here? We typically vent our AGM boxes with small louver vents top and bottom to allow the batteries to ventilate for cooling purposes, not H2 concerns. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] multiple points of grid connection and the opposite end of the bus rule
Al, Will you be relying on the 120% rule for your interconnection (i.e., do you anticipate exceeding the ampacity of the conductors you’re connecting to?)? If not, you don’t have to worry about going to the opposite end of the busbar. If you’re on the 2014 NEC, the feeder taps rules for inverters are clarified a bit at 705.12(D)(2). The way I read it, you can either make sure the feeder is sized for both the primary OCP and the inverter -OR- you can verify that the OCP on the load side of the tap doesn’t exceed the feeder ampacity. This would mean that the interconnection can basically be sized to the feeder ampacity. Other than that, I don’t see any other issues other than making sure you treat each interconnection as a separate “system”, which would include disconnect, labeling and directory requirements. Isaac Opalinsky | Technical Trainer | SunPower Corporation Desk 443-569-3476 | Cell 443-277-6286 On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 9:15 AM, Allen Frishman amfr...@aeonsolar.commailto:amfr...@aeonsolar.com wrote: Wrenchers, I am working on a multi building complex that is part of a isolated grid (multiple buildings are fed from one central building).All of the power from the utility enters one central building via a 4000AS/4000AF Service Switch. The 4000A Service switch feeds a 3 section cabinet with (5) fused switches per section.The fused switches in each of these sections then feed a different building in the complex.My plan is to install a solar array with inverters on each of these buildings and grid connect to the conductors at the individual building entrances. The majority if not all of the solar power will feed directly into the building that the array is located on however since the point of solar grid connection is to the conductors feeding the building that originate in the central buildings switch gear I am trying to get my head around the need to comply with the opposite side of the bus rule in the 3 sections located in the central building. I am hoping I am missing a rule in the NEC that will allow the multiple grid connections described to connect to all of the fused switch positions in the central buildings switch gear. All feedback is appreciated. Al Frishman AeonSolar (917) 699-6641tel:%28917%29%20699-6641 - cell (888) 460-2867tel:%2%29%20460-2867 www.aeonsolar.comhttp://www.aeonsolar.com/ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SPI 2014
Daniel, Here's some of what I learned about solutions for 690.12. Residential rapid shutdown SMA's TL-US series inverters can meet the 10 second requirement in 690.12 without further mediation. Therefore you can meet 690.12 with these string inverters by adding a ground-level rapid shutdown controller (an e-stop button) and a rooftop rapid shutdown box (a pass-through wiring box w/ contactors to open each source circuit conductor.) While SMA may be working on an in-house solution for these components, Bentek solar has a third-party solution that will be available very soon: http://www.bentek.com/solar-products/disconnect-systems/rapid-shutdown-systems/ This same product works w/ ABB UNO-series inverters, which can also meet the 10-second requirement w/out additional mediation. It sounds like these products will run about $700 in the short-term, but are expected to sell for less than $500 as demand scales. Commercial rapid shutdown Many companies are leading with low-profile inverter skids that allow 3-phase string inverters to be located on a commercial rooftop w/in the array field. In some cases, these mounting products are offered from the inverter company (AE), but there are also many third-party providers (SolarBOS, Bentek, etc.) w/ solutions for ABB inverters, SMA inverters, etc. The motivation to put string inverters on commercial rooftops is largely driven by the cost of arc-fault rapid shutdown enabled combiners. If you want to use a central inverter, it looks like you'll have to spend 2X as much money on your source circuit combiners as you are now in order to meet these code requirements. David Brearley Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 Check out this AMAZING music video tribute to SolarPro: http://bit.ly/1qfMCCh On Oct 29, 2014, at 12:45 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: From: Daniel Young dyo...@dovetailsolar.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SPI 14 Post Show Request for Comments Date: October 29, 2014 9:34:48 AM CDT To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Reply-To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org I too am interested. Especially after the teaser from SMA that they would unveil their solution to the 2014 NEC 690.12 fiasco at the show. I see nothing on SMA's website as of yet. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13 -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Loesch Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:21 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SPI 14 Post Show Request for Comments Gentlemen Ladies, Anyone who went to the LAS show have any comments? Hopefully, not everything that happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. Thanks for sharing, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SPI 2014
Thanks for the response David, this is what I was kind of expecting. I was hoping for some sort of magic box that attached to the first, and last module in the string, and would shut the string down if it lost signal from the inverter. Similar to how solar edge works, but with only 1-2 units/string. I like Solar Edge, but we try very hard to offer US made equipment as our primary offering. Right now it seems that 690.12 is just increasing the US made premium, to the point where I don't imagine US inverters will be even 5% of our residential installation base next year when 2014 NEC hits the majority of our jurisdictions. Makes me sad. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Brearley Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 2:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SPI 2014 Daniel, Here's some of what I learned about solutions for 690.12. Residential rapid shutdown SMA's TL-US series inverters can meet the 10 second requirement in 690.12 without further mediation. Therefore you can meet 690.12 with these string inverters by adding a ground-level rapid shutdown controller (an e-stop button) and a rooftop rapid shutdown box (a pass-through wiring box w/ contactors to open each source circuit conductor.) While SMA may be working on an in-house solution for these components, Bentek solar has a third-party solution that will be available very soon: http://www.bentek.com/solar-products/disconnect-systems/rapid-shutdown-syste ms/ This same product works w/ ABB UNO-series inverters, which can also meet the 10-second requirement w/out additional mediation. It sounds like these products will run about $700 in the short-term, but are expected to sell for less than $500 as demand scales. Commercial rapid shutdown Many companies are leading with low-profile inverter skids that allow 3-phase string inverters to be located on a commercial rooftop w/in the array field. In some cases, these mounting products are offered from the inverter company (AE), but there are also many third-party providers (SolarBOS, Bentek, etc.) w/ solutions for ABB inverters, SMA inverters, etc. The motivation to put string inverters on commercial rooftops is largely driven by the cost of arc-fault rapid shutdown enabled combiners. If you want to use a central inverter, it looks like you'll have to spend 2X as much money on your source circuit combiners as you are now in order to meet these code requirements. David Brearley Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 Check out this AMAZING music video tribute to SolarPro: http://bit.ly/1qfMCCh On Oct 29, 2014, at 12:45 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: From: Daniel Young dyo...@dovetailsolar.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SPI 14 Post Show Request for Comments Date: October 29, 2014 9:34:48 AM CDT To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Reply-To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org I too am interested. Especially after the teaser from SMA that they would unveil their solution to the 2014 NEC 690.12 fiasco at the show. I see nothing on SMA's website as of yet. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13 -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Loesch Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:21 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SPI 14 Post Show Request for Comments Gentlemen Ladies, Anyone who went to the LAS show have any comments? Hopefully, not everything that happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. Thanks for sharing, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 4031/7973 - Release Date: 10/29/14 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SPI 2014
Hi Daniel, You should patent that magic box idea. Better yet, patent the J-box with an embedded addressable semiconductor switch: Permissive signal from the inverter = switch closed; no signal from the inverter = switch open. Bob's your uncle. Touch-safe PV modules without undue cost or complexity. (That was the magic box I was hoping for but did not see.) I am also concerned about the cost impact of 690.12. On the one hand, we have all these great SunShot initiatives to drive down the cost of solar. On the other hand, we have these new Code requirements that are driving a cost back into the BOS. As a result, it sometimes feels like the one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing. (That's part of what makes life on the solarcoaster so exciting! ;-) BTW: I ran into one of your customers (virtually)—the one with a 12 kW ground-mounted residential system in Yellow Springs, Ohio—on a coffee nerd forum. I forget how the PV system came up, but the guy clearly has good taste in espresso equipment and PV installers. Keep up the good work! Best regards, David Brearley Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 Check out this AMAZING music video tribute to SolarPro: http://bit.ly/1qfMCCh On Oct 29, 2014, at 2:45 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: From: Daniel Young dyo...@dovetailsolar.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SPI 2014 Date: October 29, 2014 2:24:09 PM CDT To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Reply-To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Thanks for the response David, this is what I was kind of expecting. I was hoping for some sort of “magic box” that attached to the first, and last module in the string, and would shut the string down if it lost signal from the inverter. Similar to how solar edge works, but with only 1-2 units/string. I like Solar Edge, but we try very hard to offer US made equipment as our primary offering. Right now it seems that 690.12 is just increasing the US made premium, to the point where I don’t imagine US inverters will be even 5% of our residential installation base next year when 2014 NEC hits the majority of our jurisdictions. Makes me sad. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Pathfinder vs. Suneye
Hi Allen, Thanks for the assessment. I think that makes a lot of sense. I prefer to be conservative with my grid-tied numbers, too. Maybe I'll just round down the Suneye projections. Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com d...@ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 3:38 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com wrote: Dana, I'm not going to answer your question directly, but rather I'd like to add to Ray's comments. In short. use the SunEye for grid tie work; use the Pathfinder for off grid. If you don't do off grid (most installers don't any more, if they ever did) don't bother with the Pathfinder. Off grid seldom if ever deals with multiple roof angles, as modules aren't typically mounted on roofs. Details: 1. Grid tie is competitive, so you want the most accurate estimate of production. I believe the SunEye is more accurate, or at least more liberal in its output. 2. Your competitors will most likely use the SunEye, so you'll need to offer its level of apparent professionalism, as well as match their output projections. 3. For off grid, I want the inherent conservatism of the Pathfinder; for grid-tie, not so much. I have almost zero history of customers' off grid systems being undersized, in large part because of the inherent conservatism of the Pathfinder, combined with our 37º latitude, as Ray mentioned (meaning we're at the outer edge of the 6º latitude template spread), and also combined with our high-elevation, dry-air insolation often exceeding the standard 1,000 w/m2. Together this meant that my systems typically and routinely exceeded their projected output. Nobody has ever complained about that. 4. Grid tie customers never go on the roof with the designer/salesperson to look at a sunpath chart. They just want the results - a PV system that looks good and saves them money. Off gridders are usually way more involved in the design and customer education process. The Pathfinder sunpath chart is so simple to read that doing charts while picking an array site is a shared part of the educational part of the design/sales process. So it leads to the treasured ah-hah! moment when the client really gets what's going on, and gets fully engaged in the design of their system in the process. They're two different tools serving completely different purposes. I prefer the analog nature of the Pathfinder, but not for the usual and predictable reasons. Allan Sindelar www.sindelarsolar.com *Allan Sindelar* al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 505%20780-2738 cell* On 10/28/2014 3:32 PM, Ray Walters wrote: I've not done a side by side comparison, but the Pathfinder seems to be slightly conservative, especially depending on which latitude sheet you are using. I sometimes switch sheets and try both, when the latitude is close to falling between (ie 37 deg, and there is 37 to 43 sheet or a 31 to 37 sheet) Checking against actual sun locations at the solstices, it seems to be close, but I think they would rather err on the side of caution. I've used the Path finders for decades, and find them ideal for discussing shading issues on site with the customer, as every one can look at it at the same time. For more complicated shading analysis, I can see the Suneye being more useful. Depending on the situation, I could see using both, but the Pathfinder is better for off grid, as we don't have accurate insolation values at these remote locations, so detailed analysis has limited value anyway. We're primarily looking at which trees need to be trimmed. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 On 10/28/2014 3:19 PM, Dana Brandt wrote: Hi Wrenches, We've been using the Pathfinder along with the Pathfinder Assistant software for several years and mostly like it. My concern with it is there's no way to combine two or three shading images to account for a string of modules spanning those different shading conditions. I've spoken with the Pathfinder folks and they don't seem to understand or acknowledge that limitation. How have you dealt with this? So I bought a Suneye. Their software can apparently calculate string shading including multiple solar access readings. I took both the Pathfinder and the Suneye out on my next site assessment and have run the results of side by side measurements. The Suneye is showing about 10-15% better solar access for each measurement that the Pathfinder Assistant software. I'm concerned to see such different numbers. Has anyone else done a side by side comparison? What have you seen? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com d...@ecotechenergy.com
Re: [RE-wrenches] Pathfinder vs. Suneye
Hi William, I like that idea a lot. If you went through and subtracted off the shaded numbers for each of the Pathfinder readings on the same spreadsheet you could get the cumulative shading for a string across those reading locations. The Pathfinder Assistant should be able to do that, too. I like to use the Assistant Software so I can account for pitch and orientation. If there's a big tree to the east but my roof is facing west the shading won't count for much. With the manual Pathfinder it's tough to put a number to that, but the Assistant software can do it. It just won't allow for string shading. Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com d...@ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 10:48 PM, William Miller will...@millersolar.com wrote: Dana: You can evaluate multiple points with a Pathfinder, thusly: 1.In case you were not aware, the little numbers in between the hours add up to 100% over a day. 2.Create a spreadsheet with all of the numbers present. Make it mimic the layout on the Pathfinder. 3.For any given sample, you delete all of the numbers that correspond to shading. This is easily done by viewing the image of the pathfinder and lassoing and deleting the shaded numbers until the spreadsheet looks like the Pathfinder. 4.The remainder is the sun exposure percentage for the month. 5.You take shading analysis samples at all of the points you desire. 6.You calculate each point separately and then average the results for the different points on a month-by-month basis. 7.See example spreadsheet below for one point with no shading. Like any worthwhile project, this takes some time to set up, but it is then pretty effortless to use. There is no cost for this do=it-yourself approach. William Example: (Note the rows in the Pathfinder are not in chronological order. Your formulae will compensate for that.) [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com http://www.millersolar.com/ 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dana Brandt *Sent:* Tuesday, October 28, 2014 2:20 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Pathfinder vs. Suneye Hi Wrenches, We've been using the Pathfinder along with the Pathfinder Assistant software for several years and mostly like it. My concern with it is there's no way to combine two or three shading images to account for a string of modules spanning those different shading conditions. I've spoken with the Pathfinder folks and they don't seem to understand or acknowledge that limitation. How have you dealt with this? So I bought a Suneye. Their software can apparently calculate string shading including multiple solar access readings. I took both the Pathfinder and the Suneye out on my next site assessment and have run the results of side by side measurements. The Suneye is showing about 10-15% better solar access for each measurement that the Pathfinder Assistant software. I'm concerned to see such different numbers. Has anyone else done a side by side comparison? What have you seen? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Pathfinder vs. Suneye
All – Just a couple of quick comments – we’ve been using both Pathfinders and Suneye’s for several years. We’ve now primarily switched to the Solmetric Suneye for ease of running the full analysis report. A while ago we compared the same sites back to back between the Suneye software and Pathfinder Assistant software. We actually found that the two were within a couple/few percent of each other but that the Suneye was more conservative (ie the Suneye report showed more annual shade than the Pathfinder). Note that you need to use the Pathfinder software to accurately analyze azimuths for anything other than South. A West facing array, for example, will not compute properly but just adding up the shade numbers under the dome. Best, August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dana Brandt *Sent:* Wednesday, October 29, 2014 4:46 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Pathfinder vs. Suneye Hi Allen, Thanks for the assessment. I think that makes a lot of sense. I prefer to be conservative with my grid-tied numbers, too. Maybe I'll just round down the Suneye projections. Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com d...@ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 3:38 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com wrote: Dana, I'm not going to answer your question directly, but rather I'd like to add to Ray's comments. In short. use the SunEye for grid tie work; use the Pathfinder for off grid. If you don't do off grid (most installers don't any more, if they ever did) don't bother with the Pathfinder. Off grid seldom if ever deals with multiple roof angles, as modules aren't typically mounted on roofs. Details: 1. Grid tie is competitive, so you want the most accurate estimate of production. I believe the SunEye is more accurate, or at least more liberal in its output. 2. Your competitors will most likely use the SunEye, so you'll need to offer its level of apparent professionalism, as well as match their output projections. 3. For off grid, I want the inherent conservatism of the Pathfinder; for grid-tie, not so much. I have almost zero history of customers' off grid systems being undersized, in large part because of the inherent conservatism of the Pathfinder, combined with our 37º latitude, as Ray mentioned (meaning we're at the outer edge of the 6º latitude template spread), and also combined with our high-elevation, dry-air insolation often exceeding the standard 1,000 w/m2. Together this meant that my systems typically and routinely exceeded their projected output. Nobody has ever complained about that. 4. Grid tie customers never go on the roof with the designer/salesperson to look at a sunpath chart. They just want the results - a PV system that looks good and saves them money. Off gridders are usually way more involved in the design and customer education process. The Pathfinder sunpath chart is so simple to read that doing charts while picking an array site is a shared part of the educational part of the design/sales process. So it leads to the treasured ah-hah! moment when the client really gets what's going on, and gets fully engaged in the design of their system in the process. They're two different tools serving completely different purposes. I prefer the analog nature of the Pathfinder, but not for the usual and predictable reasons. Allan Sindelar www.sindelarsolar.com *Allan Sindelar* al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 505%20780-2738 cell* On 10/28/2014 3:32 PM, Ray Walters wrote: I've not done a side by side comparison, but the Pathfinder seems to be slightly conservative, especially depending on which latitude sheet you are using. I sometimes switch sheets and try both, when the latitude is close to falling between (ie 37 deg, and there is 37 to 43 sheet or a 31 to 37 sheet) Checking against actual sun locations at the solstices, it seems to be close, but I think they would rather err on the side of caution. I've used the Path finders for decades, and find them ideal for discussing shading issues on site with the customer, as every one can look at it at the same time. For more complicated shading analysis, I can see the Suneye being more useful. Depending on the situation, I could see using both, but the Pathfinder is better for off grid, as we don't have accurate insolation values at these remote locations, so detailed analysis has limited value anyway. We're primarily looking at which trees need to be trimmed. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 10/28/2014 3:19 PM, Dana Brandt wrote: Hi Wrenches, We've been using the Pathfinder along with the Pathfinder Assistant software for several
[RE-wrenches] ITC for solar water pumping on a ranch
Does anyone know for certain if a homeowner can qualify for the 30% federal solar tax credit (ITC) if the PV is used for direct water pumping out of a well used for irrigation? To be more specific, there are two wells that will be solarized. One well will provide irrigation water to livestock on the homeowner's property. The other well will provide drinking water to a future residence (not yet built) on the property. From what I'm reading online, the answer is yes but the actual IRS tax form doesn't address this application and I've been told by a friend that the answer is no. Thanks! Eric A. Stikes Owner, SunHarvest Solar CA Solar Contractor 968280 * Founder, GoodSun Solar CA Non-Profit C3586424 On Oct 24, 2014, at 9:58 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems, la...@starlightsolar.com wrote: Jay, Perhaps asking the question here. I have hundreds of Magnum inverter installations, perhaps I or others can help. Larry On Oct 23, 2014, at 5:44 PM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: HI All, Does anyone have a person at Magnum in engineering or higher up than tech support. I've got a problem with an inverter that tech support won't or can't help with. thanks jay peltz power ___ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] ITC for solar water pumping on a ranch
Eric, My understanding is that it's a residential credit and thus has to be used for a residence, although it's not limited to a primary residence. So in that case, no, an irrigation pump would not be allowed. By the way, solar water pumping is specifically excluded in our New Mexico state incentive program, as is anything that constitutes a load, or use of the energy. Allan Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 10/29/2014 6:13 PM, SunHarvest wrote: Does anyone know for certain if a homeowner can qualify for the 30% federal solar tax credit (ITC) if the PV is used for direct water pumping out of a well used for irrigation? To be more specific, there are two wells that will be solarized. One well will provide irrigation water to livestock on the homeowner's property. The other well will provide drinking water to a future residence (not yet built) on the property. From what I'm reading online, the answer is yes but the actual IRS tax form doesn't address this application and I've been told by a friend that the answer is no. Thanks! Eric A. Stikes Owner, SunHarvest Solar CA Solar Contractor 968280 * Founder, GoodSun Solar CA Non-Profit C3586424 On Oct 24, 2014, at 9:58 AM, "Starlight Solar Power Systems," la...@starlightsolar.com wrote: Jay, Perhaps asking the question here. I have hundreds of Magnum inverter installations, perhaps I or others can help. Larry On Oct 23, 2014, at 5:44 PM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: HI All, Does anyone have a person at Magnum in engineering or higher up than tech support. I've got a problem with an inverter that tech support won't or can't help with. thanks jay peltz power ___ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] ITC for solar water pumping on a ranch
HI Eric, The DSIRE website lists the incentives, there is no requirement for grid tie. Have your CPA or attorney verify, you can also query the IRS. Ag systems filing Schedule F qualify for REAP grants from the USDA. I have done several grants and we always add the ITC and depreciation. REAP grants only apply to rural business uses, not residences. On another completely different subject: I started using CIGS modules with string inverters in the last several months, and am very happy with the results. Curiously on Monday a system facing 205, south by southwest at 4 in 12 slope with 48 CIGS 150 mods on an SMA 6000TL was reading 6100 Watts under light cloudy skies at 4 PM. On Tuesday it was reading 5000 watts under clear skies at 1 PM a bit better than expected. Local PV research guy says CIGS like diffuse light. Anybody else have experience with these kind of mods? Dean T. Newberry 216 F St. #132 Davis, CA 95616 (530) 753-1900 mailto:de...@talbottsolar.com de...@talbottsolar.com http://www.talbottsolar.com http://www.talbottsolar.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of SunHarvest Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 5:13 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] ITC for solar water pumping on a ranch Does anyone know for certain if a homeowner can qualify for the 30% federal solar tax credit (ITC) if the PV is used for direct water pumping out of a well used for irrigation? To be more specific, there are two wells that will be solarized. One well will provide irrigation water to livestock on the homeowner's property. The other well will provide drinking water to a future residence (not yet built) on the property. From what I'm reading online, the answer is yes but the actual IRS tax form doesn't address this application and I've been told by a friend that the answer is no. Thanks! Eric A. Stikes Owner, SunHarvest Solar CA Solar Contractor 968280 * Founder, GoodSun Solar CA Non-Profit C3586424 On Oct 24, 2014, at 9:58 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems, la...@starlightsolar.com wrote: Jay, Perhaps asking the question here. I have hundreds of Magnum inverter installations, perhaps I or others can help. Larry On Oct 23, 2014, at 5:44 PM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: HI All, Does anyone have a person at Magnum in engineering or higher up than tech support. I've got a problem with an inverter that tech support won't or can't help with. thanks jay peltz power ___ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Passive Battery Venting
Hi Daniel, I typically vent them the way you do, which will allow any small amount of hydrogen out. The customer is absolutely adamant about venting these to the outside. I will cooperate so long as his method doesn't compromise the system through cooling the batteries unnecessarily in the dead of winter. He is a lawyer and came to the conclusion of the need for venting to the outside from reading the NEC which says that sealed batteries require the same amount of ventilation as liquid lead acid batteries. The code also says to vent appropriate to battery technology, so the code says two conflicting things. On the other hand, it doesn't say that liquid electrolyte batteries need to be vented to the outside. They will sure stink if you vent them to the inside. Drake At 09:54 AM 10/29/2014, you wrote: I just re-read the original post Drake. These are AGM batteries. Do you have a belt, suspenders,...then a rocket pack type of client here? We typically vent our AGM boxes with small louver vents top and bottom to allow the batteries to ventilate for cooling purposes, not H2 concerns. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13 -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 11:12 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Passive Battery Venting That's why we usually have the batteries in a garage, basement, or out building that is not open to the living space. I've seen some cases of very well sealed and insulated enclosures allowing batteries to over heat, and also build up a lot of acid damaged connections. Boxes I've seen with more air space and less sealing don't get this build up, but you're correct: they do occasionally allow H2S into the surrounding area. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 10/28/2014 8:10 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: We do what we can to seal the enclosure so if or when a battery fails and really gasses off the two vents on the same wall regardless of wind direction will vent the gas. If it is not sealed then the gas can travel through out the area this is not advised. ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 4031/7973 - Release Date: 10/29/14 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 4031/7973 - Release Date: 10/29/14 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] ITC for solar water pumping on a ranch
Reading the code they removed the grid tie only and this opened the door for off grid customers i would say its OK but i always recommend contacting the customers tax accountant as they will sign right next to your customer and they sometimes think different. On Oct 29, 2014 2:13 PM, SunHarvest e...@harvesthesun.com wrote: Does anyone know for certain if a homeowner can qualify for the 30% federal solar tax credit (ITC) if the PV is used for direct water pumping out of a well used for irrigation? To be more specific, there are two wells that will be solarized. One well will provide irrigation water to livestock on the homeowner's property. The other well will provide drinking water to a future residence (not yet built) on the property. From what I'm reading online, the answer is yes but the actual IRS tax form doesn't address this application and I've been told by a friend that the answer is no. Thanks! *Eric A. Stikes* *Owner, SunHarvest Solar* CA Solar Contractor 968280 * *Founder, GoodSun Solar* CA Non-Profit C3586424 On Oct 24, 2014, at 9:58 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems, la...@starlightsolar.com wrote: Jay, Perhaps asking the question here. I have hundreds of Magnum inverter installations, perhaps I or others can help. Larry On Oct 23, 2014, at 5:44 PM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: HI All, Does anyone have a person at Magnum in engineering or higher up than tech support. I've got a problem with an inverter that tech support won't or can't help with. thanks jay peltz power ___ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
