Re: [RE-wrenches] small inverters

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Jay,
The Exeltechs can be routinely ordered with the Low Idle option,
which I think brings the idle draw down to 10W. In some small
applications, a remote on/off switch allows the user to manually (or
otherwise with additional external control, I suppose) turn the unit
on or off, further reducing the idle. 
Allan


  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
Allan Sindelar
  al...@sindelarsolar.com
  NABCEP Certified PV
Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive
  Energy,
  Inc.
505 780-2738 cell


 
  

On 4/20/2016 7:20 PM, jay wrote:


  Hi All,

I’ve got someone looking for a small inverter.  12 or 24v, 300-1000 watts is the range.

I’ve had such bad experiences with magnum that I am just not wanting to use them ever again.

Many of the small units ( samalex etc)  have a fan that runs, makes too much noise, high idle current.

I’d like pure sine wave.

Morning star 300 watt is a nice unit, would be on the small side.

Exeltech are nice but I think maybe have too much idle power.

Any other options out there than I folks can recommend?

Thanks

jay

peltz power



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Re: [RE-wrenches] float switch for grundfos submersible

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Bill,
I have always used the CU200 ("Sorry, sir, that's what it costs to
give you what you want...") when a float switch is called for (which
is nine times out of ten) so I haven't done this, but:
The only alternative to their proprietary product would be a means
to break the incoming AC or DC feed to the pump. That means placing
the float switch in line with the power supply ahead of the pump. A
conventional float switch is likely to arc and soon fail, possibly
closed. A mercury-switch float switch, intended for non-potable
applications, would function at high DC voltages. I'm extrapolating
this from memories of MDI (Mercury Displacement Industries) being
used to control PV input DC on the APT/Ananda Powercenters of yore.
The catch is that by including mercury, they can't meet standards
for potable water. So if this is for a regulated facility like a
public well it won't fly, but for a private homeowner you might
offer it as a practical solution. (I used them a number of times in
other pump applications before I learned of the potable/non-potable
distinction, and never had one fail.)
Allan


  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
Allan Sindelar
  al...@sindelarsolar.com
  NABCEP Certified PV
Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive
  Energy,
  Inc.
505 780-2738 cell


 
  

On 4/20/2016 8:36 PM, Bill Hennessy
  wrote:


  
Hi folks--

  
Can
  anyone recommend a non-factory, inline float switch for a
  Grundfos pv-powered submersible? Not interested in paying the
  $350 for the Grundfos controller.
The
  float switch contacts will need to handle the arcing of about
  120 VDC.
  

  

 

  Bill Hennessy
Berks Solar, LLC
371 Centennial Rd
Mertztown, PA 19539

o 610 682 4300
c 484 560 4666
NABCEP certified installer
PA contractor #44411
www.berkssolar.com




  


  
 
  

  
  
  
  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems

[Ray Walters]

That doesn't make sense,  the inverter's charger determines the max 
charge rate and the max draw from the generator.
The 8.5 kW Kohler should have no problem running the 4.4 kW Magnum.
What is the altitude?
Is it wired for 240 vac ?  If the generator is running at 120 vac, then 
you are only running on one leg and hence operating at half power.
It will also lead to long term damage of the generator.   Its like 
pedaling a bicycle with one pedal.

The Magnum MS4448 PAE is designed for 240vac input.
The problem might only be showing itself now, because the new batteries 
are actually requiring closer to full charger power from the Magnum.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 4/21/2016 1:40 PM, Chris Daum wrote:

  Dear people:

I have an off-grid customer who has, in his system, a Magnum MS4448 and 16
of the Rolls S550 batteries, a Kohler generator (and Trimetric meter and
other components).  He upgraded his batteries this past March, and since
he's installed his new batteries, the generator is running 'rough'.  He's at
a great distance from our shop so a local business helps him from time to
time. They believe that the "batteries are too  powerful for the 8.5 kw
generator" and recommended  running it at 50 percent charge control. After 3
hrs run, it seems to help but will mean more run time for his generator (and
hence, use more fuel).  Have you ever heard of anything like this?
Everything ran fund before the battery upgrade.

Thanks for your input!

Best,

Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
www.oasismontana.com



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems

[Kevin Pegg]

Hi Chris, 

The problem summary is a bit light on details to be too specific. What, 
precisely, does a generator running "rough" mean? Overheating? Smoking? Breaker 
tripping? 

THE MS4448 has about 3 kW charging capability (63A @ 50 VDC). So the 8.5 kW 
Kohler should be able to handle that easily, depending on what else is running. 
Derating the charge capacity to 1.5 kW not sure what that would accomplish 
other than burning more fuel. 

Sounds like perhaps a generator service is in order. 

Kevin

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Chris Daum
Sent: April-21-16 12:41 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches' 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems

 Dear people:  

I have an off-grid customer who has, in his system, a Magnum MS4448 and 16 of 
the Rolls S550 batteries, a Kohler generator (and Trimetric meter and other 
components).  He upgraded his batteries this past March, and since he's 
installed his new batteries, the generator is running 'rough'.  He's at a great 
distance from our shop so a local business helps him from time to time. They 
believe that the "batteries are too  powerful for the 8.5 kw generator" and 
recommended  running it at 50 percent charge control. After 3 hrs run, it seems 
to help but will mean more run time for his generator (and hence, use more 
fuel).  Have you ever heard of anything like this?
Everything ran fund before the battery upgrade.

Thanks for your input!

Best,

Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
www.oasismontana.com



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Does a Neutral Count as a CCC

[Peter Parrish]

William,

 

I agree about the subpanel in the house situation. The customer is a bit 
eccentric, and I have tried to bring him around. And I have explained to him 
that his approach will be more expensive. He doesn’t care. In the end, there is 
no safety risk. So I’ll plan for 4 branch circuits per conduit and take the 
0.70 derating.

 

- Peter  

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave.

Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108

peter...@pobox.com

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of William Miller
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 10:25 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Does a Neutral Count as a CCC

 

Peter:

 

I think it is a mistake to not locate a sub-panel in the house.  Running branch 
circuits 45 feet to a separate building is not efficient or practical.

 

Voltage drop:  1% VD is a choice, not a requirement.  Code requires 3% on 
feeders and 5% cumulative on AC branch circuits.   I like to use 1% for average 
voltage drop for PV because of the cost of wasted PV energy.  I am more lax on 
AC circuits.  If I calculate a PV feeder for 1%, that drop will occur only 
occasionally, when peak solar is achieved.  Analyze your load or charging 
profiles and look for a calc that provides the chosen VD for average use.  
Analyzing PV energy curves over a given day, approximately 50% of the energy is 
under the bell curve.

 

Neutrals are current carrying.  Try powering a 120VAC load without one and you 
will see what I mean.

 

William Miller

 

 

Gradient Cap_mini
Lic 773985
millersolar.com  
805-438-5600

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Peter Parrish
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 8:57 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does a Netral COunt as a CCC

 

I am working with a customer who is doing a complete remodel and addition to 
his house: stripped to the open studs and floor joists, and rafters. Not a wire 
in the house. We have designed a 14.4 kWp PV system with 16 kW of storage for 
backup and load shifting. The main panel, inverters, critical load subpanel and 
batteries are all going to be in the garage which is about 45 feet from the 
house. The customer and I have identified the critical loads.

 

The GC is running conduit from the main house to the garage. I have been given 
seven (7) 1-1/2” PVC conduits, and I am currently doing conduit fill, ampacity 
and voltage drop calculations for the branch circuits that represent the 
critical loads.

 

So I have two questions:

 

(1)   Should I stick to a <1% voltage drop on all circuits?

(2)   Do 120 V neutrals count as current carrying conductors? I think they do, 
but the electrician stated quite emphatically that  they didn’t. I thought that 
the derating calcs for CCCs were based solely on ohmic losses and phasing was 
not taken into account.

 

Does the NEC provide guidance on this latter situation?

 

-  Peter Parrish

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave.

Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108

peter...@pobox.com

 

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[RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems

[Chris Daum]

 Dear people:  

I have an off-grid customer who has, in his system, a Magnum MS4448 and 16
of the Rolls S550 batteries, a Kohler generator (and Trimetric meter and
other components).  He upgraded his batteries this past March, and since
he's installed his new batteries, the generator is running 'rough'.  He's at
a great distance from our shop so a local business helps him from time to
time. They believe that the "batteries are too  powerful for the 8.5 kw
generator" and recommended  running it at 50 percent charge control. After 3
hrs run, it seems to help but will mean more run time for his generator (and
hence, use more fuel).  Have you ever heard of anything like this?
Everything ran fund before the battery upgrade.

Thanks for your input!

Best,

Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
www.oasismontana.com



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Does a Neutral Count as a CCC

[William Miller]

Peter:



I think it is a mistake to not locate a sub-panel in the house.  Running
branch circuits 45 feet to a separate building is not efficient or
practical.



Voltage drop:  1% VD is a choice, not a requirement.  Code requires 3% on
feeders and 5% cumulative on AC branch circuits.   I like to use 1% for
average voltage drop for PV because of the cost of wasted PV energy.  I am
more lax on AC circuits.  If I calculate a PV feeder for 1%, that drop will
occur only occasionally, when peak solar is achieved.  Analyze your load or
charging profiles and look for a calc that provides the chosen VD for
average use.  Analyzing PV energy curves over a given day, approximately
50% of the energy is under the bell curve.



Neutrals are current carrying.  Try powering a 120VAC load without one and
you will see what I mean.



William Miller





[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com 
805-438-5600



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Peter Parrish
*Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 8:57 AM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Does a Netral COunt as a CCC



I am working with a customer who is doing a complete remodel and addition
to his house: stripped to the open studs and floor joists, and rafters. Not
a wire in the house. We have designed a 14.4 kWp PV system with 16 kW of
storage for backup and load shifting. The main panel, inverters, critical
load subpanel and batteries are all going to be in the garage which is
about 45 feet from the house. The customer and I have identified the
critical loads.



The GC is running conduit from the main house to the garage. I have been
given seven (7) 1-1/2” PVC conduits, and I am currently doing conduit fill,
ampacity and voltage drop calculations for the branch circuits that
represent the critical loads.



So I have two questions:



(1)Should I stick to a <1% voltage drop on all circuits?

(2)Do 120 V neutrals count as current carrying conductors? I think they
do, but the electrician stated quite emphatically that  they didn’t. I
thought that the derating calcs for CCCs were based solely on ohmic losses
and phasing was not taken into account.



Does the NEC provide guidance on this latter situation?



-  Peter Parrish



Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave.

Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108

peter...@pobox.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Does a Netral COunt as a CCC

[Ray Walters]

Also look at the notes to the tables in Chapter 9.  For conduit fill, 
all wires are counted.  310.15 covers ampacity derating for more than 3 
current carrying conductors in the raceway. The key is "current carrying 
conductors".  The neutral definitely carries current.  You don't have to 
count grounding conductors, control, or signal wiring for that ampacity 
derating, because they don't create heat.  But they still count for 
conduit fill, though.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 4/21/2016 11:35 AM, Patrick A. Shortell wrote:

You should find your answers in 310.15

Patrick A. Shortell
Licensed Master Electrician
Certified Solar Installer
71 Oregon Street
Long Beach N.Y. 11561
Www.thesolarstorehouse.com 


On Apr 21, 2016, at 11:56 AM, Peter Parrish 
> 
wrote:


I am working with a customer who is doing a complete remodel and 
addition to his house: stripped to the open studs and floor joists, 
and rafters. Not a wire in the house. We have designed a 14.4 kWp PV 
system with 16 kW of storage for backup and load shifting. The main 
panel, inverters, critical load subpanel and batteries are all going 
to be in the garage which is about 45 feet from the house. The 
customer and I have identified the critical loads.


The GC is running conduit from the main house to the garage. I have 
been given seven (7) 1-1/2” PVC conduits, and I am currently doing 
conduit fill, ampacity and voltage drop calculations for the branch 
circuits that represent the critical loads.


So I have two questions:

(1)Should I stick to a <1% voltage drop on all circuits?

(2)Do 120 V neutrals count as current carrying conductors? I think 
they do, but the electrician stated quite emphatically that  they 
didn’t. I thought that the derating calcs for CCCs were based solely 
on ohmic losses and phasing was not taken into account.


Does the NEC provide guidance on this latter situation?

-Peter Parrish

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave.

Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108

peter...@pobox.com 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Does a Netral COunt as a CCC

[Patrick A. Shortell]

You should find your answers in 310.15

Patrick A. Shortell
Licensed Master Electrician
Certified Solar Installer
71 Oregon Street
Long Beach N.Y. 11561
Www.thesolarstorehouse.com


> On Apr 21, 2016, at 11:56 AM, Peter Parrish  
> wrote:
> 
> I am working with a customer who is doing a complete remodel and addition to 
> his house: stripped to the open studs and floor joists, and rafters. Not a 
> wire in the house. We have designed a 14.4 kWp PV system with 16 kW of 
> storage for backup and load shifting. The main panel, inverters, critical 
> load subpanel and batteries are all going to be in the garage which is about 
> 45 feet from the house. The customer and I have identified the critical loads.
>  
> The GC is running conduit from the main house to the garage. I have been 
> given seven (7) 1-1/2” PVC conduits, and I am currently doing conduit fill, 
> ampacity and voltage drop calculations for the branch circuits that represent 
> the critical loads.
>  
> So I have two questions:
>  
> (1)Should I stick to a <1% voltage drop on all circuits?
> (2)Do 120 V neutrals count as current carrying conductors? I think they 
> do, but the electrician stated quite emphatically that  they didn’t. I 
> thought that the derating calcs for CCCs were based solely on ohmic losses 
> and phasing was not taken into account.
>  
> Does the NEC provide guidance on this latter situation?
>  
> -  Peter Parrish
>  
> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.
> President, SolarGnosis
> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave.
> Suite 351
> South Pasadena, CA 91030
> (323) 839-6108
> peter...@pobox.com
>  
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[RE-wrenches] Does a Netral COunt as a CCC

[Peter Parrish]

I am working with a customer who is doing a complete remodel and addition to
his house: stripped to the open studs and floor joists, and rafters. Not a
wire in the house. We have designed a 14.4 kWp PV system with 16 kW of
storage for backup and load shifting. The main panel, inverters, critical
load subpanel and batteries are all going to be in the garage which is about
45 feet from the house. The customer and I have identified the critical
loads.

 

The GC is running conduit from the main house to the garage. I have been
given seven (7) 1-1/2" PVC conduits, and I am currently doing conduit fill,
ampacity and voltage drop calculations for the branch circuits that
represent the critical loads.

 

So I have two questions:

 

(1)Should I stick to a <1% voltage drop on all circuits?

(2)Do 120 V neutrals count as current carrying conductors? I think they
do, but the electrician stated quite emphatically that  they didn't. I
thought that the derating calcs for CCCs were based solely on ohmic losses
and phasing was not taken into account.

 

Does the NEC provide guidance on this latter situation?

 

-  Peter Parrish

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave.

Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108

peter...@pobox.com

 

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