Re: [RE-wrenches] FullRiver battery question

[Ray]

Hi Jay,

Thanks for that info on AGM behavior.  I've advocated for years that 
charge controller temp sensors should also be used to sense over temp 
and shut down or reduce charge current.  Midnite added this feature to 
their Classic charge controllers. Its a bit hard to find, but you can 
set the temp to shut off at the battery manufacturer's  highest 
recommended temperature.  Besides catastrophic melt downs,  high temps 
can greatly reduce a battery's cycle life.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 11/29/18 6:57 PM, jay wrote:

Hi All,

My 2 cents.

I’ve recently had to do some research for someone who had 16 Full 
River 400/6v melt down.  ( 48v bank, 2-3 yrs old). Both banks, all 16 
melted.
In talking with a battery company expert, what I was given is the 
following:  AGM if not charged correctly, especially if they are 
allowed to sulfate ( under charge), and then charged heavily during 
hot conditions can melt down. When  flooded get sulfated they won’t 
accept a large charge, current is low.   AGM appear to have the 
opposite reaction which is that they create high resistance but accept 
current creating lots of heat.  They can’t vent the heat ( no caps 
 and if there isn’t enough room around them they can’t expel the heat 
either.  In a sense if they can melt together, they are too close 
together ) and if there is external heat to contribute then once they 
get to 40-50C internal they can melt down.  I mentioned in a previous 
post that Full River has an EQ type cycle for batteries that are 
showing lowered capacity which is a form of sulfation and this EQ is 
to try and prevent this exact situation.


As to MK, I don’t use them as they have very low cycle life.  Those MK 
8D AGM are around 700 cycles to 50%, vs Full River or Rolls AGM at 
around 1300 cycles to 50%.


VRLA  are a pretty tricky compared to flooded.

jay
peltz power


On Nov 29, 2018, at 8:33 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com>> wrote:


Let me confirm what William has shared about Deka/MK 8D AGM 
batteries; they have a very high failure rate. We saw over 40% fail 
within 2-3 years of installation. Deka would not own up to the 
problem and offered no compensation.


Fullriver has been the finest AGM we have ever sold. All DC models 
are excellent. We especially like the 2 volt L-16’s for high capacity 
systems. We had one failure, and I know of one other, where L16 
batteries went into thermal runaway. The cases welded together. After 
fully testing the power system that we designed and installed, we 
found no problem. Fullriver would not offer any help or replacement.


Our installations are 100% battery based. When I do see failures I 
have many other identical power systems to compare with (in the 
thousands, we do 5-8 per week) and this helps me make sound 
judgements about our findings.


Larry Crutcher

*3 year old Deka 8D*


*1.5 year old Fullriver L-16*



On Nov 28, 2018, at 11:43 PM, William Miller > wrote:


Allan:

We have had poor luck with the 8D AGM batteries (MK/Deka).  Many of 
them have had short life spans along with swelling, heating and even 
exploding. Your point about the inefficient footprint is right on.


I have minimal experience with Full River.  I have seen a set fail, 
but heck, anyone can do that in a hurry.


When footprint is an issue, we have gone to racked AGMs, like the 
Deka Unigy.  Now to get higher voltages might require custom racking, 
but the cells come in lots of sizes and shapes, physically and in 
capacity.  It may be worth checking into the size of a 400 AH Unigy 
cell and see how they rack up.  I don’t have but a smattering of 
drawings for the models we have purchased, but my cursory look 
indicates you won’t save on volume or dollars,  but you may gain a 
smaller footprint with some Unigy racks in series.


William


Lic 773985
millersolar.com 
805-438-5600
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Re: [RE-wrenches] FullRiver battery question

[jay]

Hi All,

My 2 cents.

I’ve recently had to do some research for someone who had 16 Full River 400/6v 
melt down.  ( 48v bank, 2-3 yrs old). Both banks, all 16 melted.
In talking with a battery company expert, what I was given is the following:  
AGM if not charged correctly, especially if they are allowed to sulfate ( under 
charge), and then charged heavily during hot conditions can melt down. When  
flooded get sulfated they won’t accept a large charge, current is low.   AGM 
appear to have the opposite reaction which is that they create high resistance 
but accept current creating lots of heat.  They can’t vent the heat ( no caps  
and if there isn’t enough room around them they can’t expel the heat either.  
In a sense if they can melt together, they are too close together ) and if 
there is external heat to contribute then once they get to 40-50C internal they 
can melt down.  I mentioned in a previous post that Full River has an EQ type 
cycle for batteries that are showing lowered capacity which is a form of 
sulfation and this EQ is to try and prevent this exact situation. 

As to MK, I don’t use them as they have very low cycle life.  Those MK 8D AGM 
are around 700 cycles to 50%, vs Full River or Rolls AGM at around 1300 cycles 
to 50%.  

VRLA  are a pretty tricky compared to flooded.  

jay
peltz power


> On Nov 29, 2018, at 8:33 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
>  wrote:
> 
> Let me confirm what William has shared about Deka/MK 8D AGM batteries; they 
> have a very high failure rate. We saw over 40% fail within 2-3 years of 
> installation. Deka would not own up to the problem and offered no 
> compensation.
> 
> Fullriver has been the finest AGM we have ever sold. All DC models are 
> excellent. We especially like the 2 volt L-16’s for high capacity systems. We 
> had one failure, and I know of one other, where L16 batteries went into 
> thermal runaway. The cases welded together. After fully testing the power 
> system that we designed and installed, we found no problem. Fullriver would 
> not offer any help or replacement. 
> 
> Our installations are 100% battery based. When I do see failures I have many 
> other identical power systems to compare with (in the thousands, we do 5-8 
> per week) and this helps me make sound judgements about our findings. 
> 
> Larry Crutcher
> 
> 3 year old Deka 8D
> 
> 
> 1.5 year old Fullriver L-16
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 28, 2018, at 11:43 PM, William Miller  > wrote:
> 
> Allan:
> 
> We have had poor luck with the 8D AGM batteries (MK/Deka).  Many of them have 
> had short life spans along with swelling, heating and even exploding.  Your 
> point about the inefficient footprint is right on.
> 
> I have minimal experience with Full River.  I have seen a set fail, but heck, 
> anyone can do that in a hurry.
> 
> When footprint is an issue, we have gone to racked AGMs, like the Deka Unigy. 
>  Now to get higher voltages might require custom racking, but the cells come 
> in lots of sizes and shapes, physically and in capacity.  It may be worth 
> checking into the size of a 400 AH Unigy cell and see how they rack up.  I 
> don’t have but a smattering of drawings for the models we have purchased, but 
> my cursory look indicates you won’t save on volume or dollars,  but you may 
> gain a smaller footprint with some Unigy racks in series.
> 
> William
> 
> 
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com 
> 805-438-5600
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> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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Re: [RE-wrenches] FullRiver battery question

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Let me confirm what William has shared about Deka/MK 8D AGM batteries; they 
have a very high failure rate. We saw over 40% fail within 2-3 years of 
installation. Deka would not own up to the problem and offered no compensation.

Fullriver has been the finest AGM we have ever sold. All DC models are 
excellent. We especially like the 2 volt L-16’s for high capacity systems. We 
had one failure, and I know of one other, where L16 batteries went into thermal 
runaway. The cases welded together. After fully testing the power system that 
we designed and installed, we found no problem. Fullriver would not offer any 
help or replacement. 

Our installations are 100% battery based. When I do see failures I have many 
other identical power systems to compare with (in the thousands, we do 5-8 per 
week) and this helps me make sound judgements about our findings. 

Larry Crutcher

3 year old Deka 8D


1.5 year old Fullriver L-16



On Nov 28, 2018, at 11:43 PM, William Miller  wrote:

Allan:

We have had poor luck with the 8D AGM batteries (MK/Deka).  Many of them have 
had short life spans along with swelling, heating and even exploding.  Your 
point about the inefficient footprint is right on.

I have minimal experience with Full River.  I have seen a set fail, but heck, 
anyone can do that in a hurry.

When footprint is an issue, we have gone to racked AGMs, like the Deka Unigy.  
Now to get higher voltages might require custom racking, but the cells come in 
lots of sizes and shapes, physically and in capacity.  It may be worth checking 
into the size of a 400 AH Unigy cell and see how they rack up.  I don’t have 
but a smattering of drawings for the models we have purchased, but my cursory 
look indicates you won’t save on volume or dollars,  but you may gain a smaller 
footprint with some Unigy racks in series.

William


Lic 773985
millersolar.com 
805-438-5600___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] FullRiver battery question

[Jay]

Hi Allan,

You check Rolls, which has a similar battery. 

Jay
Peltz power. 

> On Nov 28, 2018, at 10:43 PM, William Miller  wrote:
> 
> Allan:
> 
> We have had poor luck with the 8D AGM batteries (MK/Deka).  Many of them have 
> had short life spans along with swelling, heating and even exploding.  Your 
> point about the inefficient footprint is right on.
> 
> I have minimal experience with Full River.  I have seen a set fail, but heck, 
> anyone can do that in a hurry.
> 
> When footprint is an issue, we have gone to racked AGMs, like the Deka Unigy. 
>  Now to get higher voltages might require custom racking, but the cells come 
> in lots of sizes and shapes, physically and in capacity.  It may be worth 
> checking into the size of a 400 AH Unigy cell and see how they rack up.  I 
> don’t have but a smattering of drawings for the models we have purchased, but 
> my cursory look indicates you won’t save on volume or dollars,  but you may 
> gain a smaller footprint with some Unigy racks in series.
> 
> William
> 
> 
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com
> 805-438-5600
>  
> 
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
> Behalf Of Sindelar Solar
> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2018 9:31 PM
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FullRiver battery question
>  
> 
> Thanks, Ray. In this case I established availability (albeit in SoCal) and a 
> good written price quote before posting my request here.
> 
> Allan
> 
> On 11/28/2018 9:53 PM, Ray wrote:
> 
> I don't see why it wouldn't have similar performance to other Fullriver 
> products.  The problem I've had in the past, when I found that "perfect" 
> battery model on the spec sheet, is that the distributor usually doesn't 
> stock it, and then it either is too pricey, or too long a lead time to be 
> practical. 
> 
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
> On 11/28/18 8:22 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote:
> 
> Esteemed Wrenches:
> 
> Short form, just my question: FullRiver makes a DC215-12 AGM battery, which 
> is in the J185 profile, more akin to an L16 at 15"x7"x15" tall. I haven't 
> used this particular battery model and it's not commonly used in solar 
> applications. Is there any reason I should avoid it, because of shape or 
> intended application or anything else?
> 
> Background story: I'm rebuilding/upgrading one of a handful of late-1990s off 
> grid systems that use the Michigan Energy Works transformerless 
> inverter/charge controller on a 144V DC voltage standard. It's a rather 
> unique product, difficult to make fully Code-compliant today given the lack 
> of an isolation transformer between the DC and the AC. However, Code 
> compliance isn't the issue here. The existing system uses 24 6V L16 FLAs 
> wired in series, with a 900W array (10 BP590s from 1996) feeding them (at 5A 
> max). I'm adding 1,560W and reducing the battery capacity using FullRiver 
> AGMs. My question is simple: the most familiar large 12V AGMs are the 8D 
> profile with about 260 AH (C/20 rate) and sometimes the 4D profile with about 
> 210 AH. Both of these batteries are short, with a larger footprint, and 12 of 
> them won't fit in the space of the 24 L16s unless they're mounted on their 
> sides. I can do that but would prefer not to. FullRiver also makes DC215-12, 
> which is in the J185 profile, more akin to an L16 at 15"x7"x15" tall. It fits 
> the space.
> 
> Thanks, Allan
> 
> -- 
> 
> Allan Sindelar
> al...@sindelarsolar.com
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> 505 780-2738 cell
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] FullRiver battery question

[William Miller]

Allan:

We have had poor luck with the 8D AGM batteries (MK/Deka).  Many of them
have had short life spans along with swelling, heating and even exploding.
Your point about the inefficient footprint is right on.

I have minimal experience with Full River.  I have seen a set fail, but
heck, anyone can do that in a hurry.

When footprint is an issue, we have gone to racked AGMs, like the Deka
Unigy.  Now to get higher voltages might require custom racking, but the
cells come in lots of sizes and shapes, physically and in capacity.  It may
be worth checking into the size of a 400 AH Unigy cell and see how they
rack up.  I don’t have but a smattering of drawings for the models we have
purchased, but my cursory look indicates you won’t save on volume or
dollars,  but you may gain a smaller footprint with some Unigy racks in
series.

William

[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com 
805-438-5600



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Sindelar Solar
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 28, 2018 9:31 PM
*To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] FullRiver battery question



Thanks, Ray. In this case I established availability (albeit in SoCal) and
a good written price quote before posting my request here.

Allan

On 11/28/2018 9:53 PM, Ray wrote:

I don't see why it wouldn't have similar performance to other Fullriver
products.  The problem I've had in the past, when I found that "perfect"
battery model on the spec sheet, is that the distributor usually doesn't
stock it, and then it either is too pricey, or too long a lead time to be
practical.

Ray Walters

Remote Solar

303 505-8760

On 11/28/18 8:22 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote:

Esteemed Wrenches:

Short form, just my question: FullRiver makes a DC215-12 AGM battery, which
is in the J185 profile, more akin to an L16 at 15"x7"x15" tall. I haven't
used this particular battery model and it's not commonly used in solar
applications. Is there any reason I should avoid it, because of shape or
intended application or anything else?

Background story: I'm rebuilding/upgrading one of a handful of late-1990s
off grid systems that use the Michigan Energy Works transformerless
inverter/charge controller on a 144V DC voltage standard. It's a rather
unique product, difficult to make fully Code-compliant today given the lack
of an isolation transformer between the DC and the AC. However, Code
compliance isn't the issue here. The existing system uses 24 6V L16 FLAs
wired in series, with a 900W array (10 BP590s from 1996) feeding them (at
5A max). I'm adding 1,560W and reducing the battery capacity using
FullRiver AGMs. My question is simple: the most familiar large 12V AGMs are
the 8D profile with about 260 AH (C/20 rate) and sometimes the 4D profile
with about 210 AH. Both of these batteries are short, with a larger
footprint, and 12 of them won't fit in the space of the 24 L16s unless
they're mounted on their sides. I can do that but would prefer not to.
FullRiver also makes DC215-12, which is in the J185 profile, more akin to
an L16 at 15"x7"x15" tall. It fits the space.

Thanks, Allan

-- 

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*
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