Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries - Li-ion battery warning

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hello Howie,

You should be aware that Discover Li-ion battery does not have adequate 
protection to prevent damage if charged below freezing. The data sheet (see 
attachment) shows that you can charge the battery down to -4°F and adds a text 
warning not to charge below 32°F. 

"Care should be taken to ensure that the battery’s temperature is > 0°C (32°F) 
during charging."

Charging any Li battery below freezing will permanently damage the battery and 
create a future fire hazard. This is no problem if you can insure that the 
cells always stay above freezing. 

IMO, it makes no sense why any Li battery manufacturer does not fully protect 
their battery. (I know of others) It is simple to inhibit charge current based 
on cell temperature. To me this can create a ticking time bomb. Someone 
unknowingly charges a frozen battery. The danger shows up later when the 
separator is penetrated by dendrite growth caused by lithium plating of the 
anode. This happened when they charged a frozen battery. Dendrite growth can 
lead to internal shorting which can be a fire hazard.

It would be wise to install these in a sealed metal enclosure or provide 
another method to prevent charge current when below freezing.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems





On May 3, 2019, at 12:45 PM, Howie Michaelson  
wrote:

Hi Folks,
About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a heavy 
user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost effective.  
We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the backup 
component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he wanted to be 
sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he was using (making 
up for past profligate power usage).  We will be using a dual stacked XW 6848, 
mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire in a transfer switch and 
only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead).
I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:
(2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
(3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider 
Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into the 
SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated cycle life 
so higher lifetime energy capacity.

Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size allowing 
for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse and 
disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.

If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my comparison, I'd 
greatly appreciate it.



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Re: [RE-wrenches] large(ish) AC coupled battery backup

[Kienan Maxfield]

Dave,

No problem. I don't know much about Sonnen, but what I do know is that not all 
GT inverters do the same impedance test. Outback Power did a bunch of testing 
and they found one inverter larger than 6 kW that would be able to tell that it 
could impact the voltage coming from the Radian, and so it could tell that it 
was not truly the grid. So to be ultra safe, Outback decided to make a cap of 6 
kW.

Now I don't know which brand/model inverter above 6 kW that they found that 
wouldn't work. I don't know if the impedance of the batteries might make a 
slight difference, and since the Sonnen will only have Lithium batteries with 
super short cables, perhaps it might be able to trick that one GT inverter, or 
perhaps, they are less cautious about making sure it will work with every 
inverter that falls within the rating, or maybe it is something in the 
software. I don't know.

Perhaps, if Outback were doing all their testing with Lithium batteries and 
super short cables, perhaps they would have rated the Radian to handle larger 
GT inverters.

Thanks,
Kienan

Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Dave 
Tedeyan 
Sent: Friday, May 3, 2019 3:05 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] large(ish) AC coupled battery backup

Kienan,
Thanks for the info here. That is really interesting about the 6kw limitation. 
Outback clearly states that limit, but Sonnen has managed to surpass that with 
their programming of the Radian.
The PV part of the system is already existing, so this will need to be AC 
coupled entirely. I may just aim to AC couple one of the two 11.4kw inverters 
though.
Another slightly complicating factor is that the array is ground mounted and 
interconnects near the meter which is roughly 100' from the house. Fortunately 
there is that old service line that I may be able to use to bring power from 
the solar all the way back to the house.

Cheers,
Dave

Dave Tedeyan, PE
Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
[https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png]
110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
o. 607.277.1118 x121  f. 607.277.2119
www.taitem.com

Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree


On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 2:54 PM Kienan Maxfield 
mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
Yes, two radians combined can handle one 12 kW grid tied inverter.

The 6 kW limitation is not a limitation of how much power the radian can 
actually handle, it's that the grid tied inverters do an impedance/stability 
test, and some inverters larger than 6 kW will detect that the inverter is not 
actually the grid, and the GT inverter will shut down before it even fires up. 
If it weren't for that, the radian would be able to handle more PV in an AC 
coupled situation.

Is this an all new system? Sometimes, doing a mixture of AC and DC coupling 
makes the most sense financially if you don't actually need 4 radians worth of 
backup power. The following setup I'm talking about assumes that you have an 
external transfer switch, and it's the extreme setup, not necessarily a 
recommended setup. I just want to demonstrate that you would really only need 2 
radians if the required instantaneous backup power needs were low enough.

If you do an AC/DC coupled mix, for each Radian, you can actually handle up to 
6 kW AC of GT inverter(s), and it can export 7.2 kW AC from the DC coupled 
side. With a DC/AC ratio of 1.25, that would be 7.5 kW of AC coupled PV and 9 
kW of DC coupled PV, so with the right design and external transfer switch, the 
radian could potentially handle up to 16.25 of PV per inverter. Now you have to 
tie the AC coupled PV into the load side of the transfer switch (or in the 
backed up loads panel). This way, if the grid is available, the AC coupled PV 
is not connected at all to the battery based inverter, but when the power 
fails, then the PV gets connected to the radian(s) through the transfer switch. 
Again, I want to stress that it is imperative that with this kind of system, it 
has to be tied through an automatic external transfer switch, and that you 
can't have the power flowing to the grid from both the AC and DC coupled PV 
simultaneously.

Hope this is somewhat helpful.

Thanks,
Kienan


Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)


From: RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
 on behalf of Dave Tedeyan mailto:dtede...@taitem.com>>
Sent: Friday, May 3, 2019 7:43 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] large(ish) AC coupled battery backup

Thanks Darryl,
Yea, it used to be two separate 200A services. At some point, someone decided 
to turn one of those panels into a sub and run it all of a single service.
Regarding paralleling Radians, I know that the max solar input when AC couple

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[MiJo Nels]

I love IronE's temp tolerances.

and as far as LiPO4 goes AES is certainly neck and neck with the VERY best of 
LFP. Their BMS is very robust and well designed (And they're made in Canada)

Joe Nelson

Project Manager C-46/C-10
Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation

CSL# 868816
www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com
530-273-4422 (Office)

530-217-8385 (Cell)



   



From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
Jerry Shafer 
Sent: Friday, May 3, 2019 2:32:37 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

Just my 2 cents, look at Blue ion from Blue Planet Energy, l have installed new 
and also switched over from other batteries, been very happy with performance

On Fri, May 3, 2019, 2:30 PM Jason Andrade 
mailto:ja...@westcoastsustainables.com>> wrote:

Howie,
I’ve used a few different brands and am currently using the Discover AES, I 
have a quad stack of the coupled to an dual stack of XW inverters and they are 
working great,
As for another post comment that these companies are looking to be bought out, 
Discover is long time battery manufacturer and I feel pretty confident they 
will be here to honor the warranty.
If you search YouTube you can see a video Discover and I did on my wood shop.
Jason Andrade
West Coast Sustainables

>
>
>> Hi Folks,
>> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a
>> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost
>> effective.
>> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the
>> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he
>> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he
>> was using (making up for past profligate power usage).  We will be using a
>> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire
>> in
>> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead).
>> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:
>>
>>   - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
>>   - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
>>
>> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider
>> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into
>> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated
>> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity.
>>
>> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size
>> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse
>> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.
>>
>> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my
>> comparison,
>> I'd greatly appreciate it.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Jerry Shafer]

Just my 2 cents, look at Blue ion from Blue Planet Energy, l have installed
new and also switched over from other batteries, been very happy with
performance

On Fri, May 3, 2019, 2:30 PM Jason Andrade 
wrote:

>
> Howie,
> I’ve used a few different brands and am currently using the Discover AES,
> I have a quad stack of the coupled to an dual stack of XW inverters and
> they are working great,
> As for another post comment that these companies are looking to be bought
> out, Discover is long time battery manufacturer and I feel pretty confident
> they will be here to honor the warranty.
> If you search YouTube you can see a video Discover and I did on my wood
> shop.
> Jason Andrade
> West Coast Sustainables
>
> >
> >
> >> Hi Folks,
> >> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a
> >> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost
> >> effective.
> >> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the
> >> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he
> >> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he
> >> was using (making up for past profligate power usage).  We will be
> using a
> >> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire
> >> in
> >> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup
> instead).
> >> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:
> >>
> >>   - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
> >>   - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
> >>
> >> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the
> Schneider
> >> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight
> into
> >> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated
> >> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity.
> >>
> >> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size
> >> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated
> fuse
> >> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.
> >>
> >> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my
> >> comparison,
> >> I'd greatly appreciate it.
>
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[RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Jason Andrade]

Howie,
I’ve used a few different brands and am currently using the Discover AES, I 
have a quad stack of the coupled to an dual stack of XW inverters and they are 
working great, 
As for another post comment that these companies are looking to be bought out, 
Discover is long time battery manufacturer and I feel pretty confident they 
will be here to honor the warranty.
If you search YouTube you can see a video Discover and I did on my wood shop.
Jason Andrade
West Coast Sustainables 

> 
> 
>> Hi Folks,
>> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a
>> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost
>> effective.
>> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the
>> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he
>> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he
>> was using (making up for past profligate power usage).  We will be using a
>> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire
>> in
>> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead).
>> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:
>> 
>>   - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
>>   - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
>> 
>> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider
>> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into
>> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated
>> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity.
>> 
>> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size
>> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse
>> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.
>> 
>> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my
>> comparison,
>> I'd greatly appreciate it.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries

[Howie Michaelson]

Chris,
Thanks for the reminder.  I've stayed out of the Lithium option until now,
largely because of just that, but now that I'm delving in, that is a good
reminder. I swore off bleeding edge products years ago, but I guess I'm
running the risk of bleeding again...
Howie

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 4:49 PM Chris Mason 
wrote:

> I'd be very cautious about getting too cosy with any of these battery
> companies, it seems their only aim is to get bought. Sonnen was acquired by
> Shell Oil, Pika by Generac. I'm a generac dealer so I am exploring what
> their intentions are.  I doubt Shell will be gung-ho to continue to support
> solar, so where does that leave my Sonnen customers?
> Make sure your customers are aware you don't know where this is going and
> whether any of these guys will stay the course. Companies like trojan and
> Outback are going to be around, but Fortress? Unlikely.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 4:34 PM  wrote:
>
>> Hi Howie,
>> Have you looked at Fortress Power batteries? We're about to install
>> some and they look like a very decent battery. Google will get you the
>> basic info to start.
>>
>>
>> Daryl
>> Penobscot Solar Design
>>
>>
>>
>> > Hi Folks,
>> > About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a
>> > heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost
>> > effective.
>> > We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the
>> > backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he
>> > wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he
>> > was using (making up for past profligate power usage).  We will be
>> using a
>> > dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire
>> > in
>> > a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup
>> instead).
>> > I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:
>> >
>> >- (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
>> >- (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
>> >
>> > Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the
>> Schneider
>> > Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight
>> into
>> > the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated
>> > cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity.
>> >
>> > Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size
>> > allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated
>> fuse
>> > and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.
>> >
>> > If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my
>> > comparison,
>> > I'd greatly appreciate it.
>> > ___
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>>
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>
> --
> Chris Mason
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
> Solar Design Engineer
> Generac Generators Industrial technician
>
> www.cometsolar.com 
> 264.235.5670
> 869.662.5670
> Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries

[Howie Michaelson]

Thanks Dave. Do you need an add-on to get the interface from the AES to the
Conext gateway?
Have you used Iron Edison's lithium offering?  Is there a comprehensible
reason for the significant price differential between the 2?  Do you know
where the IronEdison are manufactured?
Howie

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 4:53 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:

> Hi Howie,
>
> The largest I have seen/worked on is the AES with (17) 6.6 KWH batteries.
> I can tell you it works fine with an XW system.
>
> Even though it looks like AES uses the conext battery monitor, it really
> does not and you do not have to buy one. Because AES was from xantrex
> employees, Schneider lets them use the xanbus data to simulate a battery
> monitor. See attachment for what it looks like on the conext gateway. The
> Iron Edison is nice also but you would need the shunt and battery monitor.
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Fri, 3 May 2019 15:45:28 -0400, Howie Michaelson <
> howie.michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Folks,
> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a
> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost
> effective.
> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the
> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he
> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he
> was using (making up for past profligate power usage).  We will be using a
> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire in
> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead).
> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:
>
>- (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
>- (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
>
> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider
> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into
> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated
> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity.
>
> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size
> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse
> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.
>
> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my
> comparison, I'd greatly appreciate it.
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] large(ish) AC coupled battery backup

[Dave Tedeyan]

Kienan,
Thanks for the info here. That is really interesting about the 6kw
limitation. Outback clearly states that limit, but Sonnen has managed to
surpass that with their programming of the Radian.
The PV part of the system is already existing, so this will need to be AC
coupled entirely. I may just aim to AC couple one of the two 11.4kw
inverters though.
Another slightly complicating factor is that the array is ground mounted
and interconnects near the meter which is roughly 100' from the house.
Fortunately there is that old service line that I may be able to use to
bring power from the solar all the way back to the house.

Cheers,
Dave

*Dave Tedeyan, PE*
Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC

110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
www.taitem.com

Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree


On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 2:54 PM Kienan Maxfield 
wrote:

> Yes, two radians combined can handle one 12 kW grid tied inverter.
>
> The 6 kW limitation is not a limitation of how much power the radian can
> actually handle, it's that the grid tied inverters do an
> impedance/stability test, and some inverters larger than 6 kW will detect
> that the inverter is not actually the grid, and the GT inverter will shut
> down before it even fires up. If it weren't for that, the radian would be
> able to handle more PV in an AC coupled situation.
>
> Is this an all new system? Sometimes, doing a mixture of AC and DC
> coupling makes the most sense financially if you don't actually need 4
> radians worth of backup power. The following setup I'm talking about
> assumes that you have an external transfer switch, and it's the extreme
> setup, not necessarily a recommended setup. I just want to demonstrate that
> you would really only need 2 radians if the required instantaneous backup
> power needs were low enough.
>
> If you do an AC/DC coupled mix, for each Radian, you can actually handle
> up to 6 kW AC of GT inverter(s), and it can export 7.2 kW AC from the DC
> coupled side. With a DC/AC ratio of 1.25, that would be 7.5 kW of AC
> coupled PV and 9 kW of DC coupled PV, so with the right design and external
> transfer switch, the radian could potentially handle up to 16.25 of PV per
> inverter. Now you have to tie the AC coupled PV into the load side of the
> transfer switch (or in the backed up loads panel). This way, if the grid is
> available, the AC coupled PV is not connected at all to the battery based
> inverter, but when the power fails, then the PV gets connected to the
> radian(s) through the transfer switch. Again, I want to stress that it is
> imperative that with this kind of system, it has to be tied through an
> automatic external transfer switch, and that you can't have the power
> flowing to the grid from both the AC and DC coupled PV simultaneously.
>
> Hope this is somewhat helpful.
>
> Thanks,
> Kienan
>
>
> *Maxfield Solar*
> *maxfieldso...@hotmail.com* 
> * (801) 631-5584 (Cell) *
>
> --
> *From:* RE-wrenches  on behalf
> of Dave Tedeyan 
> *Sent:* Friday, May 3, 2019 7:43 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] large(ish) AC coupled battery backup
>
> Thanks Darryl,
> Yea, it used to be two separate 200A services. At some point, someone
> decided to turn one of those panels into a sub and run it all of a single
> service.
> Regarding paralleling Radians, I know that the max solar input when AC
> coupled is only 6kw for an 8kw inverter. When they are paralleled, does
> that jump up to a single 12kw input, or are you just limited to two 6kw
> inputs?
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
>
> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
> o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
> www.taitem.com
>
> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
> B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree
>
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 9:27 AM Darryl Thayer 
> wrote:
>
> the 2 each 200 Amp panels is to overcome the 42 circuit limit in one
> panel.  must be a big house.  This sounds like a whole house backup.  you
> will need a transfer switch much like a whole house generator switch unless
> your customer needs TOU or some other grid service.
>
> For the AC coupled paralleled Radians or XW6848 and have a turn off for
> one or both of the SB inverters based on battery voltage (SOC).
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 7:58 AM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> Does anyone have a good recommendation for an AC coupled energy storage
> solution for someone who has a 27.6kw array with two SE11400A-US inverters?
> The output of one of those inverters is more than a Sonnen or Radian can
> handle (which is what I am most familiar with).
> I am not sure yet whether this will be a whole home backup or just a
> subset of their loads, but they have two 200A panels on a single 200A
> service.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave
>
> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, P

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries

[Chris Mason]

I'd be very cautious about getting too cosy with any of these battery
companies, it seems their only aim is to get bought. Sonnen was acquired by
Shell Oil, Pika by Generac. I'm a generac dealer so I am exploring what
their intentions are.  I doubt Shell will be gung-ho to continue to support
solar, so where does that leave my Sonnen customers?
Make sure your customers are aware you don't know where this is going and
whether any of these guys will stay the course. Companies like trojan and
Outback are going to be around, but Fortress? Unlikely.




On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 4:34 PM  wrote:

> Hi Howie,
> Have you looked at Fortress Power batteries? We're about to install
> some and they look like a very decent battery. Google will get you the
> basic info to start.
>
>
> Daryl
> Penobscot Solar Design
>
>
>
> > Hi Folks,
> > About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a
> > heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost
> > effective.
> > We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the
> > backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he
> > wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he
> > was using (making up for past profligate power usage).  We will be using
> a
> > dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire
> > in
> > a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead).
> > I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:
> >
> >- (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
> >- (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
> >
> > Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the
> Schneider
> > Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into
> > the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated
> > cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity.
> >
> > Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size
> > allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse
> > and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.
> >
> > If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my
> > comparison,
> > I'd greatly appreciate it.
> > ___
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-- 
Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician

www.cometsolar.com 
264.235.5670
869.662.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries

[penobscotsolar]

Hi Howie,
Have you looked at Fortress Power batteries? We're about to install
some and they look like a very decent battery. Google will get you the
basic info to start.


Daryl
Penobscot Solar Design



> Hi Folks,
> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a
> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost
> effective.
> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the
> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he
> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he
> was using (making up for past profligate power usage).  We will be using a
> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire
> in
> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead).
> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:
>
>- (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
>- (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
>
> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider
> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into
> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated
> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity.
>
> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size
> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse
> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.
>
> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my
> comparison,
> I'd greatly appreciate it.
> ___
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[RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries

[Howie Michaelson]

Hi Folks,
About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a
heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost
effective.
We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the
backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he
wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he
was using (making up for past profligate power usage).  We will be using a
dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire in
a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead).
I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:

   - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
   - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries

Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider
Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into
the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated
cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity.

Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size
allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse
and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.

If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my comparison,
I'd greatly appreciate it.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] large(ish) AC coupled battery backup

[Dave Tedeyan]

Thanks Darryl,
Yea, it used to be two separate 200A services. At some point, someone
decided to turn one of those panels into a sub and run it all of a single
service.
Regarding paralleling Radians, I know that the max solar input when AC
coupled is only 6kw for an 8kw inverter. When they are paralleled, does
that jump up to a single 12kw input, or are you just limited to two 6kw
inputs?

Cheers,
Dave

*Dave Tedeyan, PE*
Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC

110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
www.taitem.com

Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree


On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 9:27 AM Darryl Thayer  wrote:

> the 2 each 200 Amp panels is to overcome the 42 circuit limit in one
> panel.  must be a big house.  This sounds like a whole house backup.  you
> will need a transfer switch much like a whole house generator switch unless
> your customer needs TOU or some other grid service.
>
> For the AC coupled paralleled Radians or XW6848 and have a turn off for
> one or both of the SB inverters based on battery voltage (SOC).
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 7:58 AM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Does anyone have a good recommendation for an AC coupled energy storage
>> solution for someone who has a 27.6kw array with two SE11400A-US inverters?
>> The output of one of those inverters is more than a Sonnen or Radian can
>> handle (which is what I am most familiar with).
>> I am not sure yet whether this will be a whole home backup or just a
>> subset of their loads, but they have two 200A panels on a single 200A
>> service.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dave
>>
>> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
>> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
>>
>> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
>> o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
>> www.taitem.com
>>
>> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
>> B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] large(ish) AC coupled battery backup

[Darryl Thayer]

the 2 each 200 Amp panels is to overcome the 42 circuit limit in one
panel.  must be a big house.  This sounds like a whole house backup.  you
will need a transfer switch much like a whole house generator switch unless
your customer needs TOU or some other grid service.

For the AC coupled paralleled Radians or XW6848 and have a turn off for one
or both of the SB inverters based on battery voltage (SOC).

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 7:58 AM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Does anyone have a good recommendation for an AC coupled energy storage
> solution for someone who has a 27.6kw array with two SE11400A-US inverters?
> The output of one of those inverters is more than a Sonnen or Radian can
> handle (which is what I am most familiar with).
> I am not sure yet whether this will be a whole home backup or just a
> subset of their loads, but they have two 200A panels on a single 200A
> service.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave
>
> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
>
> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
> o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
> www.taitem.com
>
> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
> B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree
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[RE-wrenches] large(ish) AC coupled battery backup

[Dave Tedeyan]

Hi All,

Does anyone have a good recommendation for an AC coupled energy storage
solution for someone who has a 27.6kw array with two SE11400A-US inverters?
The output of one of those inverters is more than a Sonnen or Radian can
handle (which is what I am most familiar with).
I am not sure yet whether this will be a whole home backup or just a subset
of their loads, but they have two 200A panels on a single 200A service.

Thanks,
Dave

*Dave Tedeyan, PE*
Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC

110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
www.taitem.com

Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree
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