Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems

2020-01-02 Thread William Miller 
Interesting. Could you use a charge controller, like a C40 for this purpose?

Having asked that, I really try to avoid multiple systems on one property. One 
battery bank is trouble enough...

Wm

> On Jan 2, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Ray  wrote:
> 
> 
> How do you insure proper charge voltage to the 12 v set?  Never tried that 
> one.
> 
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
> On 1/2/20 1:37 PM, Chris Worcester wrote:
>> I would like to add that you don’t need to get rid of the 12 v battery bank, 
>> but use it for the high amp draw buffer, like a large capacitor. Then use 
>> the DC to DC converter between the two battery banks. Done this for years on 
>> multiple off grid systems.  
>>  
>> Chris Worcester
>> Solar Wind Works
>> NABCEP PV Installation Professional
>> Office 530-582-4503
>> Cell 530-448-9692
>> www.solarwindworks.com
>> ch...@solarwindworks.com
>>  
>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
>> Behalf Of Tom Duffy
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2020 8:55 AM
>> To: RE-wrenches
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems
>>  
>> Agree!  use a Victron DC to DC Converter
>>  
>> Kind regards
>>  
>> Tom Duffy
>> Senior Solar Design Engineer
>>  
>> If you don’t have the Time or Money to do it right in the first place, how 
>> will you get the Time and Money to fix it?
>> 
>> t...@solar-biz.com
>> MAIN TOLL FREE: 888-826-0939
>> DIRECT: 888-503-6772
>> International: 001-575-539-2111
>> PANAMA: 507-836-5588 X 122
>> FAX: 520-844-8442
>> www.thesolarbiz.com
>>  
>> From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
>> Allan Sindelar
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2019 6:51 PM
>> To: RE-wrenches 
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems
>>  
>> Agreed: no 12v tap. I’ll add (with modest experience, as this doesn’t come 
>> up as an upgrade very often any more) that Mean Well, despite the odd name, 
>> proved itself pretty reliable in some early Wattsun tracker drives and some 
>> other DC-DC applications. Available online; see 
>> https://www.meanwell-web.com/en-gb/dcdc-converters/
>> Allan
>> 
>> On Dec 31, 2019, at 10:46 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:
>> 
>> I second everyone. Center-tapping a 24 or 48v battery bank for 12v SEEMS 
>> like it should work just fine, especially for low load infrequent use like a 
>> 12v water pressure pump for a greenhouse, a weather station, etc.. Nope, 
>> I've been a loser every time, with that battery or pair always the first to 
>> go bad.
>>  
>> Samlex and Victron both make DC-DC converters I have had good luck with; 
>> they are thermally protected and you can stack multiple units for more 
>> amperage.
>> 
>> Dan Fink
>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting
>> NABCEP PV Associate
>> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 
>> ~ PV Installation Professional
>> ~ Small Wind Installer
>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers
>> danbo...@gmail.com
>> 970-672-4342
>> 
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:57 AM Ray  wrote:
>> Even with battery balancers, battery tapping is still a really bad idea.  I 
>> know, I did it on my own system in the 90s.  The DC/DC converters are the 
>> way to go, but be sure and over size it by a fair amount to handle the 
>> fridge starting surge.  Unfortunately my favorites are no longer available: 
>> made by Solar Converters in Canada. I've seen them last decades.  Iota 
>> should be good stuff, their chargers have long term reliability.  Samlex 
>> inverters have been around for quite a while too, but I don't have long term 
>> experience with their converters. 
>> 
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> 303 505-8760
>> On 12/31/19 10:05 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
>> Tapping a battery bank is not a good practice. it will unbalance the bank. 
>> Much better to add a 24V electronic converter for the 12V loads. Then 
>> replace the 12V loads when time permits. They will need a spare converter so 
>> buy 2. Amazon has tons of these converters. Your quote is great BTW. H N Y !
>> 
>>  
>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
>> text 209 813 0060
>> On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:52:20 -0500, Chris Schaefer 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> G'day and Happy New Year to All,
>>  
>> Recently came across this offgrid OB FX system. The first part is a 12v 
>> battery system w/ 2 PV modules, 2 Trojan L16  batteries used to power a frig 
>> and freezer about 6 years old. The second is a 24v with 3kw of PV, 4 Trojan 
>> L16's, twin OB FX inverters installed by an HVAC contractor back in 2016. 
>> This was their first offgrid project. Oh boy, lol. The client would like to 
>> add more battery capacity to both. My thought here is since we are powering 
>> only a 12v frig and freezer why not simplify the system by creating a single 
>> battery bank and then tapping off of the 24v bank using proper fusing and 
>> creating a 12v buss? Admittedly I live in a 48v wor

Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems

2020-01-02 Thread John Blittersdorf 
Chris,
I have a 12vdc sunfrost fridge and a few 12v receptacles left over from
the 12v days and I did the same as your customer with 2L16’s and a few
panels and backed it up with an Iota charger plugged into an AC outlet
powered by my 48v Outback inverter.  Then I discontinued the dedicated Pv
panels when remodeling the house and eventually got rid of the batteries.
Just the Iota to the DC circuit works great!

Happy New Year
John Blittersdorf



On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 11:52 AM Chris Schaefer 
wrote:

> G'day and Happy New Year to All,
>
> Recently came across this offgrid OB FX system. The first part is a 12v
> battery system w/ 2 PV modules, 2 Trojan L16  batteries used to power a
> frig and freezer about 6 years old. The second is a 24v with 3kw of PV, 4
> Trojan L16's, twin OB FX inverters installed by an HVAC contractor back in
> 2016. This was their first offgrid project. Oh boy, lol. The client would
> like to add more battery capacity to both. My thought here is since we are
> powering only a 12v frig and freezer why not simplify the system by
> creating a single battery bank and then tapping off of the 24v bank using
> proper fusing and creating a 12v buss? Admittedly I live in a 48v world so
> I'm asking our esteemed colleges as to options on how to address this.
>
> Oh yeah, the installer is unresponsive (no surprise there) and they are
> also having firmware issues with an old Mate 3 and would like me to install
> a new Mate 3s but that's another issue I'll tackle when I head out to site.
>
> Thanks All,
> Christopher-
>
> Chris Schaefer’s
> 
>
> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
> *5115 South Hill Road
> 
> ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
>  ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
> *
>
>
> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
> willing to work and give to those who would not."
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems

2020-01-02 Thread Chris Worcester 
Check the output voltage limits on the converter, typically they’ve been well 
within an FLA battery’s absorb voltage window. It’s basically a trickle charger 
between the two banks. Used this from 48 v to 12 v also, Solar Converters were 
the ones. Is BZ Products still around?

The part of this that I haven’t done was to add a solar array to the smaller 
battery bank also. Don’t see anything wrong with that as each controller will 
maintain the battery bank voltage just fine. 

 

Chris Worcester

Solar Wind Works

NABCEP PV Installation Professional

Office 530-582-4503

Cell 530-448-9692

www.solarwindworks.com

ch...@solarwindworks.com

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Ray
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2020 3:24 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems

 

How do you insure proper charge voltage to the 12 v set?  Never tried that one.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 1/2/20 1:37 PM, Chris Worcester wrote:

I would like to add that you don’t need to get rid of the 12 v battery bank, 
but use it for the high amp draw buffer, like a large capacitor. Then use the 
DC to DC converter between the two battery banks. Done this for years on 
multiple off grid systems.  

 

Chris Worcester

Solar Wind Works

NABCEP PV Installation Professional

Office 530-582-4503

Cell 530-448-9692

www.solarwindworks.com

ch...@solarwindworks.com

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Tom Duffy
Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2020 8:55 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems

 

Agree!  use a Victron DC to DC Converter

 

Kind regards

 

Tom Duffy

Senior Solar Design Engineer

 

If you don’t have the Time or Money to do it right in the first place, how will 
you get the Time and Money to fix it?

TSBLOGODPIx500x200

  t...@solar-biz.com

MAIN TOLL FREE: 888-826-0939

DIRECT: 888-503-6772

International: 001-575-539-2111

PANAMA: 507-836-5588 X 122

FAX: 520-844-8442

www.thesolarbiz.com

 

From: RE-wrenches   
 On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2019 6:51 PM
To: RE-wrenches   

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems

 

Agreed: no 12v tap. I’ll add (with modest experience, as this doesn’t come up 
as an upgrade very often any more) that Mean Well, despite the odd name, proved 
itself pretty reliable in some early Wattsun tracker drives and some other 
DC-DC applications. Available online; see 
https://www.meanwell-web.com/en-gb/dcdc-converters/

Allan


On Dec 31, 2019, at 10:46 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:

I second everyone. Center-tapping a 24 or 48v battery bank for 12v SEEMS like 
it should work just fine, especially for low load infrequent use like a 12v 
water pressure pump for a greenhouse, a weather station, etc.. Nope, I've been 
a loser every time, with that battery or pair always the first to go bad.

 

Samlex and Victron both make DC-DC converters I have had good luck with; they 
are thermally protected and you can stack multiple units for more amperage.




Dan Fink

Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting

NABCEP PV Associate

NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector

IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 

~ PV Installation Professional

~ Small Wind Installer

NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers

d  anbo...@gmail.com

970-672-4342


 

 

 

On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:57 AM Ray  wrote:

Even with battery balancers, battery tapping is still a really bad idea.  I 
know, I did it on my own system in the 90s.  The DC/DC converters are the way 
to go, but be sure and over size it by a fair amount to handle the fridge 
starting surge.  Unfortunately my favorites are no longer available: made by 
Solar Converters in Canada. I've seen them last decades.  Iota should be good 
stuff, their chargers have long term reliability.  Samlex inverters have been 
around for quite a while too, but I don't have long term experience with their 
converters.  

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 12/31/19 10:05 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:

Tapping a battery bank is not a good practice. it will unbalance the bank. Much 
better to add a 24V electronic converter for the 12V loads. Then replace the 
12V loads when time permits. They will need a spare converter so buy 2. Amazon 
has tons of these converters. Your quote is great BTW. H N Y !

 
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:52:20 -0500, Chris Schaefer  
  wrote:

G'day and Happy New Year to All, 

 

Recently came across this offgrid OB FX system. The first part is a 12v battery 
system w/ 2 PV modules,

Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems

2020-01-02 Thread Ray 
How do you insure proper charge voltage to the 12 v set?  Never tried 
that one.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 1/2/20 1:37 PM, Chris Worcester wrote:


I would like to add that you don’t need to get rid of the 12 v battery 
bank, but use it for the high amp draw buffer, like a large capacitor. 
Then use the DC to DC converter between the two battery banks. Done 
this for years on multiple off grid systems.


Chris Worcester

Solar Wind Works

NABCEP PV Installation Professional

Office 530-582-4503

Cell 530-448-9692

www.solarwindworks.com

ch...@solarwindworks.com

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] 
*On Behalf Of *Tom Duffy

*Sent:* Wednesday, January 01, 2020 8:55 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems

Agree!  use a Victron DC to DC Converter

Kind regards

**

*Tom Duffy*

*/Senior Solar Design Engineer/*

**

*If you don’t have the Time or Money to do it right in the first 
place, how will you get the Time and Money to fix it?*


TSBLOGODPIx500x200

*t...@solar-biz.com *

*MAIN TOLL FREE:**888-826-0939*

*DIRECT:**888-503-6772*

*International:**001-575-539-2111*

*PANAMA:**507-836-5588 X 122*

*FAX: 520-844-8442*

*/www.thesolarbiz.com/*

*From:* RE-wrenches  *On 
Behalf Of *Allan Sindelar

*Sent:* Tuesday, December 31, 2019 6:51 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches 
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems

Agreed: no 12v tap. I’ll add (with modest experience, as this doesn’t 
come up as an upgrade very often any more) that Mean Well, despite the 
odd name, proved itself pretty reliable in some early Wattsun tracker 
drives and some other DC-DC applications. Available online; see 
https://www.meanwell-web.com/en-gb/dcdc-converters/


Allan


On Dec 31, 2019, at 10:46 AM, Dan Fink > wrote:


I second everyone. Center-tapping a 24 or 48v battery bank for 12v
SEEMS like it should work just fine, especially for low load
infrequent use like a 12v water pressure pump for a greenhouse, a
weather station, etc.. Nope, I've been a loser every time, with
that battery or pair always the first to go bad.

Samlex and Victron both make DC-DC converters I have had good luck
with; they are thermally protected and you can stack multiple
units for more amperage.


Dan Fink

Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting

NABCEP PV Associate

NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector

IREC Certified Instructor™ for:

~ PV Installation Professional

~ Small Wind Installer

NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers

d anbo...@gmail.com


970-672-4342


On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:57 AM Ray mailto:r...@solarray.com>> wrote:

Even with battery balancers, battery tapping is still a really
bad idea.  I know, I did it on my own system in the 90s.  The
DC/DC converters are the way to go, but be sure and over size
it by a fair amount to handle the fridge starting surge. 
Unfortunately my favorites are no longer available: made by
Solar Converters in Canada. I've seen them last decades. Iota
should be good stuff, their chargers have long term
reliability.  Samlex inverters have been around for quite a
while too, but I don't have long term experience with their
converters.

Ray Walters

Remote Solar

303 505-8760

On 12/31/19 10:05 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:

Tapping a battery bank is not a good practice. it will
unbalance the bank. Much better to add a 24V electronic
converter for the 12V loads. Then replace the 12V loads
when time permits. They will need a spare converter so buy
2. Amazon has tons of these converters. Your quote is
great BTW. H N Y !

  


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*

*"we go where powerlines don't"*

*http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/*

*e-mail offgridso...@sti.net *

*text 209 813 0060*

On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:52:20 -0500, Chris Schaefer

 wrote:

G'day and Happy New Year to All,

Recently came across this offgrid OB FX system. The
first part is a 12v battery system w/ 2 PV modules, 2
Trojan L16  batteries used to power a frig and freezer
about 6 years old. The second is a 24v with 3kw of PV,
4 Trojan L16's, twin OB FX inverters installed by an
HVAC contractor back in 2016. This was their first
offgrid project. Oh boy, lol. The client would like to
add more battery capacity to both. My thought here is

Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems

2020-01-02 Thread Chris Worcester 
I would like to add that you don’t need to get rid of the 12 v battery bank, 
but use it for the high amp draw buffer, like a large capacitor. Then use the 
DC to DC converter between the two battery banks. Done this for years on 
multiple off grid systems.  

 

Chris Worcester

Solar Wind Works

NABCEP PV Installation Professional

Office 530-582-4503

Cell 530-448-9692

www.solarwindworks.com

ch...@solarwindworks.com

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Tom Duffy
Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2020 8:55 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems

 

Agree!  use a Victron DC to DC Converter

 

Kind regards

 

Tom Duffy

Senior Solar Design Engineer

 

If you don’t have the Time or Money to do it right in the first place, how will 
you get the Time and Money to fix it?

TSBLOGODPIx500x200

  t...@solar-biz.com

MAIN TOLL FREE: 888-826-0939

DIRECT: 888-503-6772

International: 001-575-539-2111

PANAMA: 507-836-5588 X 122

FAX: 520-844-8442

www.thesolarbiz.com

 

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
Allan Sindelar
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2019 6:51 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems

 

Agreed: no 12v tap. I’ll add (with modest experience, as this doesn’t come up 
as an upgrade very often any more) that Mean Well, despite the odd name, proved 
itself pretty reliable in some early Wattsun tracker drives and some other 
DC-DC applications. Available online; see 
https://www.meanwell-web.com/en-gb/dcdc-converters/

Allan


On Dec 31, 2019, at 10:46 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:

I second everyone. Center-tapping a 24 or 48v battery bank for 12v SEEMS like 
it should work just fine, especially for low load infrequent use like a 12v 
water pressure pump for a greenhouse, a weather station, etc.. Nope, I've been 
a loser every time, with that battery or pair always the first to go bad.

 

Samlex and Victron both make DC-DC converters I have had good luck with; they 
are thermally protected and you can stack multiple units for more amperage.




Dan Fink

Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting

NABCEP PV Associate

NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector

IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 

~ PV Installation Professional

~ Small Wind Installer

NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers

d  anbo...@gmail.com

970-672-4342


 

 

 

On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:57 AM Ray  wrote:

Even with battery balancers, battery tapping is still a really bad idea.  I 
know, I did it on my own system in the 90s.  The DC/DC converters are the way 
to go, but be sure and over size it by a fair amount to handle the fridge 
starting surge.  Unfortunately my favorites are no longer available: made by 
Solar Converters in Canada. I've seen them last decades.  Iota should be good 
stuff, their chargers have long term reliability.  Samlex inverters have been 
around for quite a while too, but I don't have long term experience with their 
converters.  

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 12/31/19 10:05 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:

Tapping a battery bank is not a good practice. it will unbalance the bank. Much 
better to add a 24V electronic converter for the 12V loads. Then replace the 
12V loads when time permits. They will need a spare converter so buy 2. Amazon 
has tons of these converters. Your quote is great BTW. H N Y !

 
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:52:20 -0500, Chris Schaefer  
  wrote:

G'day and Happy New Year to All, 

 

Recently came across this offgrid OB FX system. The first part is a 12v battery 
system w/ 2 PV modules, 2 Trojan L16  batteries used to power a frig and 
freezer about 6 years old. The second is a 24v with 3kw of PV, 4 Trojan L16's, 
twin OB FX inverters installed by an HVAC contractor back in 2016. This was 
their first offgrid project. Oh boy, lol. The client would like to add more 
battery capacity to both. My thought here is since we are powering only a 12v 
frig and freezer why not simplify the system by creating a single battery bank 
and then tapping off of the 24v bank using proper fusing and creating a 12v 
buss? Admittedly I live in a 48v world so I'm asking our esteemed colleges as 
to options on how to address this. 

 

Oh yeah, the installer is unresponsive (no surprise there) and they are also 
having firmware issues with an old Mate 3 and would like me to install a new 
Mate 3s but that's another issue I'll tackle when I head out to site. 

 

Thanks All,

Christopher- 

Chris Schaefer's
  Image removed by sender.
Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 
5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424
www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com

Image removed