Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too
many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you
talking about please? 

DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR  
"we go where
powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net [2]
text 209 813 0060

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21
-0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar  wrote:  

Hi Ray, 

Which XW? There are
3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V.
There also was firmware back in its day that got older units updated.
Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products. 

XW+ is
default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc. 

XW pro is running downstairs and
I will take a look. It would be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I
think one needs to be sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO
also. 

I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and
Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps.   
Dave Angelini Offgrid
Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[3]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net [4]
text 209 813 0060

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020
11:46:21 -0400, Ray  wrote:  

We've been having good luck with SImpliphi,
the pricing has recently gotten much more competitive. As it's names
states, its simple. Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the
top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry
handles. We use an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel
conductors to the main 2/0 cable. No monitoring, but they do have an handy
setup guide with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer
(including Outback).  

Note to all: Schneider XW can still not set its LVD
above 48, which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries.
Their tech support has been abysmal as well. We're looking forward to them
as one of the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources
into their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to
correct this problem.  
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
 On 3/20/20
3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:   Hello Wrenches, I am working with some people
that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery
with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge controllers. They are
considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries.
Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with
the Outback system. Thanks, David Katz 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Hi Jay,

Been awhile. Pretty weird times. Really nice to be off the
grid, I think you would agree!

The answer to your question is you don't
know if it is accurate. I would call the tweaking of the numbers programmed
into Flexnet or the Schneider bat mon :"for indication only" You can
observe it and just tweek/compare to the battery internal Soc.

 The
external monitor will have to have the shunt and all the other stuff that
makes it a PITA.

It does get basic Soc data and battery temp out to Optics
and Insight2. Simply Phi had a nice paper on how to tweek/set Schneider and
Outback bat mons. I have used that. The good news is that LFP is pretty
stable (over time) and would not have the error stacking up like LA does in
Soc.

What happened to your friend with needing Insight2 advice? He
probably figured it out as it is not that hard

Dave Angelini Offgrid
Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:08:32 -0700,
Jay  wrote:
> Hi Dave,
> 
> How do you know that the OB FNDC is correct vs
the internal BMS?
> 
> Jay
> 
> Peltz Power. 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 21, 2020, at
10:02 AM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:
>> 
>> Fortress EVaults have
their own lcd screen with Soc, but Dave is right,
>> it's not as accurate
on RE Optics. We do get a battery reading without
>> any
>> add-ons, they
are just usually off up to 10% from each other.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi David,
>>>

>>> They all work but none of them can get Soc and a few other
>>> things
out to Optics unless you add an external Outback Battery monitor.
>>>
Outback has said they plan to have their own Lithium battery out in the
>>>
Fall.
>>> 
>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>> "we go where powerlines
>>>
don't"
>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
>>> e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net
>>> [2]
>>> text 209 813 0060
>>> 
>>> On Fri, 20 Mar
2020 12:59:51 -0700, David Katz
>>> wrote: Hello Wrenches, I am working
with some people that want to use
>>> a
>>> 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48
volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback
>>> Radian
>>> and Outback FM
charge controllers. They are considering using Discover,
>>> Blue-Ion,
Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. Does any one have any
>>>
recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback
system.
>>> Thanks, David Katz
>>> 
>>> Links:
>>> --
>>> [1]
>>>
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>>> [2]
mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
>>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Hi Ray, 

Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V
LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day
that got older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under
discontinued products. 

XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.


XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my guess
that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they are in
Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also. 

I am not plugging Schneider and
have done work for both Outback and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope
this helps.   
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray  wrote:   


We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently
gotten much more competitive. As it's names states, its simple. Each 3.8
kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and
are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles. We use an insulated 2
pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0
cable. No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with
recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including Outback). 


Note to all: Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which
basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries. Their tech support
has been abysmal as well. We're looking forward to them as one of the
larger companies in the business, to put additional resources into their
engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to correct this
problem.  
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
 On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David
Katz wrote:   Hello Wrenches, I am working with some people that want to
use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback
Radian and Outback FM charge controllers. They are considering using
Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. Does any one have
any recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback
system. Thanks, David Katz 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Jay]

Hi Dave,

How do you know that the OB FNDC  is correct vs the internal BMS?

Jay

Peltz Power. 


> On Mar 21, 2020, at 10:02 AM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:
> 
> Fortress EVaults have their own lcd screen with Soc, but Dave is right,
> it's not as accurate on RE Optics. We do get a battery reading without any
> add-ons, they are just usually off up to 10% from each other.
>> 
>> 
>> Hi David,
>> 
>> They all work but none of them can get Soc and a few other
>> things out to Optics unless you add an external Outback Battery monitor.
>> Outback has said they plan to have their own Lithium battery out in the
>> Fall.
>> 
>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines
>> don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
>> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
>> [2]
>> text 209 813 0060
>> 
>> On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:59:51 -0700, David Katz
>> wrote:   Hello Wrenches, I am working with some people that want to use a
>> 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback
>> Radian
>> and Outback FM charge controllers. They are considering using Discover,
>> Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. Does any one have any
>> recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback system.
>> Thanks, David Katz
>> 
>> Links:
>> --
>> [1]
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>> [2] mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount fire code clarifications

[Ray]

I, second Jay's /no gravel/ sentiment.  I saw a huge 160 acre solar farm 
that they covered with hundreds of thousands of dollars of gravel.


Punch Line?  Only the weeds came back.  And only the nice 3 ft tall ones 
that some might call brush.


Just use a weed eater or manually pull the taller stuff as needed a few 
times a year.  Smaller cordless weed eaters don't throw rocks as bad as 
the big motorized ones, and I would recommend clearing the rocks, not 
adding more.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/21/20 11:03 AM, Jay wrote:
There is another aspect to the 10’ rule which is, its protection for 
the array from wildfires. 10’ might not be enough for that though 
depending on where you live.


In regards to what’s being discussed, I have many ground mounts (not 
talking pole mounts)out there, I try to have them as high off the 
ground as practical, and to allow easy grass cutting. Yes brush would 
have been removed before install.
I don’t agree with bringing  gravel in, or any sort of barrier, we don 
t need a sterile environment under the array.  And anyone who’s ever 
seen such a weed cloth/gravel area will see it grass in over time, so 
it really doesn’t work.
Where I live, no fire danger in the winter after the rains, and during 
the green grass of spring. Cut the grass as it drys, and as we get no 
summer rain no more grass grows, until the following winter 
rains,spring time.


Many people live in green all year areas, Hawaii for example, or what 
about if you have enough water to keep it all green?


In the end it’s the AHJ’s world

Jay

Peltz power.









On Mar 20, 2020, at 7:28 PM, Martin Herzfeld  
wrote:



Dan,

I think there should more discussions on ground-mounted arrays as an 
option in addition to rooftop systems - to get out ahead of any 
issues.  In addition, any renderings for ground-mounted arrays and 
ground-mounted stuff as ESSs.


1.  By definition, a brush could mean a "slight and fleeting touch" - 
which we do not want to do at these times :) or "undergrowth, small 
trees and shrubs."


2.  The challenge also in one and and two family dwellings when there 
is a setback of only (3) three feet as an accessory structure and the 
(10) foot rule.


3.  I think mounts can be categorized in general as SPMs (Side of 
Pole Mounts), TPMs (Top of Pole Mounts), MPM's (Multiple Pole Mounts) 
or an Open Structure with the ability to walk underneath or a Closed 
structure where you can not walk underneath.


4. BTW, you may wish to look at versions of ISEP and the IRC too?

"A.   RS402.4 (R324.6) Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems.

Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems shall be designed and installed 
in accordance with Section (R301).


B.  RS402.4.1 (R324.6.1) Fire separation distances.

Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems shall be subject to the fire 
separation distance requirements determined by the local jurisdiction."



5.  Gravel and the various types is also my goto soil amendment. In 
California, I'd also suggest working with a C27 Landscaping 
Contractor on what type of blue flowers would be okay.



What do you think?


All the best,

Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified 
Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional 
#IREC 10037

Contract Training Provider (CTP)
Adjunct Professor, Energy

California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782  C46, C10, 
D56, D31, C-7
Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, 
Instrumentation


Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections
Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338
CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG

* Professional Member, International Association of Electrical 
Inspectors  #7035507
* Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy 
Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Provider


Telephone & Text: 510.243.0190

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 4:06 PM Dan Fink > wrote:


Hello esteemed Wrenches; I am trying to clear this up for a
client and his AHJ, which is also puzzled at how to interpret IFC
2018, Section 1204.4, which states:

Setback requirements shall not apply to ground-mounted,
free-standing photovoltaic arrays. A clear, brush-free area
of 10 feet (3048 mm) shall be required for ground-mounted
photovoltaic arrays.

I found one lone informational note in a white paper stating this
was to prevent a burning PV array from igniting surrounding
vegetation and the fire spreading.

So, has anyone dealt with an AHJ on this before? Our questions are:

  * What exactly is a "free-standing photovoltaic array" that is
exempt? A pole mount? Couldn't burning debris from that
ignite vegetation underneath?
  * What exactly does "A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048
mm)" mea

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[penobscotsolar]

Fortress EVaults have their own lcd screen with Soc, but Dave is right,
it's not as accurate on RE Optics. We do get a battery reading without any
add-ons, they are just usually off up to 10% from each other.
>
>
> Hi David,
>
> They all work but none of them can get Soc and a few other
> things out to Optics unless you add an external Outback Battery monitor.
> Outback has said they plan to have their own Lithium battery out in the
> Fall.
>
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines
> don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
> [2]
> text 209 813 0060
>
> On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:59:51 -0700, David Katz
> wrote:   Hello Wrenches, I am working with some people that want to use a
> 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback
> Radian
> and Outback FM charge controllers. They are considering using Discover,
> Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. Does any one have any
> recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback system.
> Thanks, David Katz
>
> Links:
> --
> [1]
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> [2] mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount fire code clarifications

[Jay]

There is another aspect to the 10’ rule which is, its protection for the array 
from wildfires. 10’ might not be enough for that though depending on where you 
live. 

In regards to what’s being discussed, I have many ground mounts (not talking 
pole mounts)out there, I try to have them as high off the ground as practical, 
and to allow easy grass cutting. Yes brush would have been removed before 
install. 
I don’t agree with bringing  gravel in, or any sort of barrier, we don t need a 
sterile environment under the array.  And anyone who’s ever seen such a weed 
cloth/gravel area will see it grass in over time, so it really doesn’t work. 
Where I live, no fire danger in the winter after the rains, and during the 
green grass of spring. Cut the grass as it drys, and as we get no summer rain 
no more grass grows, until the following winter rains,spring time. 

Many people live in green all year areas, Hawaii for example, or what about if 
you have enough water to keep it all green?  

In the end it’s the AHJ’s world

Jay

Peltz power. 









> On Mar 20, 2020, at 7:28 PM, Martin Herzfeld  wrote:
> 
> 
> Dan, 
> 
> I think there should more discussions on ground-mounted arrays as an option 
> in addition to rooftop systems - to get out ahead of any issues.  In 
> addition, any renderings for ground-mounted arrays and ground-mounted stuff 
> as ESSs. 
> 
> 1.  By definition, a brush could mean a "slight and fleeting touch" - which 
> we do not want to do at these times :) or "undergrowth, small trees and 
> shrubs."  
> 
> 2.  The challenge also in one and and two family dwellings when there is a 
> setback of only (3) three feet as an accessory structure and the (10) foot 
> rule.
> 
> 3.  I think mounts can be categorized in general as SPMs (Side of Pole 
> Mounts), TPMs (Top of Pole Mounts), MPM's (Multiple Pole Mounts) or an Open 
> Structure with the ability to walk underneath or a Closed structure where you 
> can not walk underneath. 
> 
> 4. BTW, you may wish to look at versions of ISEP and the IRC too? 
> 
> "A.   RS402.4 (R324.6) Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems.
> Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems shall be designed and installed in 
> accordance with Section (R301).
> B.  RS402.4.1 (R324.6.1) Fire separation distances.
> Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems shall be subject to the fire separation 
> distance requirements determined by the local jurisdiction."
> 
> 5.  Gravel and the various types is also my goto soil amendment. In 
> California, I'd also suggest working with a C27 Landscaping Contractor on 
> what type of blue flowers would be okay. 
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> All the best, 
> 
> Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master 
> Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037
> Contract Training Provider (CTP)
> Adjunct Professor, Energy
> 
> California Solar & Electrical Contractor License  #00833782  C46, C10, D56, 
> D31, C-7
> Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation
> 
> Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections 
> Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
> OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338
> CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG
> 
> * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors  
> #7035507
> * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy 
> Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Provider
> 
> Telephone & Text: 510.243.0190
>
> 
>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 4:06 PM Dan Fink  wrote:
>> Hello esteemed Wrenches; I am trying to clear this up for a client and his 
>> AHJ, which is also puzzled at how to interpret IFC 2018, Section 1204.4, 
>> which states:
>> 
>>> Setback requirements shall not apply to ground-mounted, free-standing 
>>> photovoltaic arrays. A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm) shall be 
>>> required for ground-mounted photovoltaic arrays.
>>  
>> I found one lone informational note in a white paper stating this was to 
>> prevent a burning PV array from igniting surrounding vegetation and the fire 
>> spreading.
>> 
>> So, has anyone dealt with an AHJ on this before? Our questions are:
>> What exactly is a "free-standing photovoltaic array" that is exempt? A pole 
>> mount? Couldn't burning debris from that ignite vegetation underneath?
>> What exactly does "A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm)" mean? "10 
>> feet" is a linear measurement, not an area, that would be in square feet.
>> What is "brush"? Does grass count as brush?
>> I would interpret this on the safe side as meaning that all vegetation under 
>> the PV array and out to a 10 foot perimeter should be cleared, except for 
>> pole-mount arrays (that exception makes no sense to me).
>> 
>> I always recommend to clients that the area under the ground mount array 
>> should be pea gravel bordered by railroad ties, but out to 10 feet f

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Ray]

We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently 
gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states, its simple.  Each 
3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 
lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use 
an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to 
the main 2/0 cable.  No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup 
guide with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer 
(including Outback).


Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which 
basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries. Their tech 
support has been abysmal as well.   We're looking forward to them as one 
of the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources 
into their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to 
correct this problem.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:

Hello Wrenches,
I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 
kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback 
FM charge controllers.
They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or 
SimpliPhi batteries.
Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best 
with the Outback system.

Thanks,
David Katz

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