[RE-wrenches] Older OB and lithium

[Jay]

I talked with a senior tech from OB this am. 

The issue why OB doesn’t recommend the FX and non A radians has to do with the 
LBCO is non adjustable for time. It’s set at 6 minutes. You can change the 
voltage of course. Reading between the lines they are worried that you will get 
battery shutdown before the time is up. 
Of course setting the LBCO a bit higher will take care of that. 

And there is an odd rebulk issue that might come into play for those doing grid 
charging. 

But the charge parameters and all that work just fine. 

Jay

Peltz power. 



> On Aug 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, Jerry Shafer  wrote:
> 
> 
> Kirk
> I would be interested in your amended programming with outback and blue planet
> Jerry
> 
>> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 6:43 AM Kirk Herander  wrote:
>> http://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/lithium_app_note.pdf
>> 
>> This doesn't explain it, just omits older FX inverters from the Outback 
>> compatible list.
>> 
>> In terms of programming, I did not use Blue Planet's BI setpoints verbatim 
>> in the BI 2.0 (48v) system I set up with FXR inverters. They are definitely 
>> to be used as guidelines. I was able to get the backup genny to start almost 
>> PRECISELY at an 8% SOC and turn of at 70% according to the e-gauge, and 
>> easily do further tweaking remotely through the Mate3s via REoptics. I can 
>> share my setpoints if anyone is interested.
>> 
>> This is a remote site, at least 2 miles from grid power, but I have reliable 
>> internet using a Verizon jetpack cell modem/router (and you can also pull 
>> and use the verizon Sim card in 3rd party verizon-compatible devices).
>> 
>> In this application, the charging efficiency(and ability to use the entire 
>> kwh capacity of the bank) is outstanding compared to the old wet cell LA 
>> bank. BI-LFP bank has been installed 6 mos and genny has run a total of 55 
>> hrs, compared to at least 250+ same time last year. 
>> 
>> I will say that Blue Planet definitely needs to expand and re-write their 
>> documentation. You will find gaps for sure which might leave you 
>> head-scratching the first time around. IMO this especially relates to 
>> battery combiner box design and recommendation. If you have more than one 
>> cabinet they need to parallel together safely using off-the-shelf 
>> components, properly rated and protected. Especially in the high voltage 
>> system I am about to install, 1MWH @ 850 vdc. They really ought to sell a 
>> listed combiner with the system. I have almost weekly tech meetings with 
>> them getting all the details straight.
>>> On 8/9/2020 8:30:04 PM, Jay  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Kirk,
>>> 
>>> Can you explain why it wouldnt work?
>>> 
>>> Just setpoints. 
>>> 
>>> Jay
>>> 
> On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:13 PM, Kirk Herander  wrote:
> 
 
 For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or Blue 
 Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion LFP batteries. 
 The newer FXR series are.
 Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages, duration, 
 etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why Outback states that 
 older FX inverters are not compatible. 
 Outback  states this in a tech note about using LI batteries.
> On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org 
>  wrote:
> 
> P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with 
> a 2600 W array. 
> 
> --- 
> 
> 
> On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: 
> > Hello Wrenches, 
> > 
> > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? 
> > 
> > Thanks, 
> > 
> > Drake 
> > Athens Electric 
> > 
> > -- 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Jerry Shafer]

Kirk
I would be interested in your amended programming with outback and blue
planet
Jerry

On Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 6:43 AM Kirk Herander  wrote:

> http://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/lithium_app_note.pdf
>
> This doesn't explain it, just omits older FX inverters from the Outback
> compatible list.
>
> In terms of programming, I did not use Blue Planet's BI setpoints verbatim
> in the BI 2.0 (48v) system I set up with FXR inverters. They are definitely
> to be used as guidelines. I was able to get the backup genny to start
> almost PRECISELY at an 8% SOC and turn of at 70% according to the e-gauge,
> and easily do further tweaking remotely through the Mate3s via REoptics. I
> can share my setpoints if anyone is interested.
>
> This is a remote site, at least 2 miles from grid power, but I have
> reliable internet using a Verizon jetpack cell modem/router (and you can
> also pull and use the verizon Sim card in 3rd party verizon-compatible
> devices).
>
> In this application, the charging efficiency(and ability to use the entire
> kwh capacity of the bank) is outstanding compared to the old wet cell LA
> bank. BI-LFP bank has been installed 6 mos and genny has run a total of 55
> hrs, compared to at least 250+ same time last year.
>
> I will say that Blue Planet definitely needs to expand and re-write their
> documentation. You will find gaps for sure which might leave you
> head-scratching the first time around. IMO this especially relates to
> battery combiner box design and recommendation. If you have more than one
> cabinet they need to parallel together safely using off-the-shelf
> components, properly rated and protected. Especially in the high voltage
> system I am about to install, 1MWH @ 850 vdc. They really ought to sell a
> listed combiner with the system. I have almost weekly tech meetings with
> them getting all the details straight.
>
> On 8/9/2020 8:30:04 PM, Jay  wrote:
> Hi Kirk,
>
> Can you explain why it wouldnt work?
>
> Just setpoints.
>
> Jay
>
> On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:13 PM, Kirk Herander  wrote:
>
> 
> For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or Blue
> Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion LFP batteries.
> The newer FXR series are.
> Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages, duration,
> etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why Outback states that
> older FX inverters are not compatible.
> Outback  states this in a tech note about using LI batteries.
>
> On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org <
> drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote:
> P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with
> a 2600 W array.
>
> ---
>
>
> On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
> > Hello Wrenches,
> >
> > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Drake
> > Athens Electric
> >
> > --
> > ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB#000US LCD Displays

[Jay]

Is it the heat that damages them or UV light?

Jay

Peltz power. 

> On Aug 10, 2020, at 5:13 PM, Chris Sparadeo  wrote:
> 
> 
> Jason, 
> 
> Yes the LCD displays can be swapped out. I had an issue with one earlier this 
> year on a SB6000US and SMA sent a replacement. Very easy to swap out. Good 
> luck with tech support. 
> 
> -Chris 
> 
>> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 7:20 PM Jason Szumlanski 
>>  wrote:
>> I'm zeroing in on an answer and will share when I get it. I sent an email at 
>> the recommendation of the first-line customer service rep. One person 
>> responded saying to call customer service (haha). A few minutes later 
>> another one said the cover needs to be replaced to maintain the NEMA 3R 
>> rating and gave me another email to get information on availability. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:05 PM Jason Szumlanski 
>>>  wrote:
>>> Does anyone know if the LCD displays can be replaced? I have a client with 
>>> three SB6000US and one SB3000US all manufactured in 2007 and all four 
>>> displays are shot. I'm not sure why it is so hard for SMA tech support to 
>>> give me a simple answer on this. I just had a mind-melting hour-long phone 
>>> call with them about this and the easiest currently-available replacement 
>>> for an out-of-warranty SB6000US. I failed to get a straight answer on 
>>> either question.
>>> 
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB#000US LCD Displays

[Steve]

I replaced one about 2 years ago. SMA Sunny Island tech support just sent me a 
new one.

Sent from my iPad

> On Aug 10, 2020, at 3:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski 
>  wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know if the LCD displays can be replaced? I have a client with 
> three SB6000US and one SB3000US all manufactured in 2007 and all four 
> displays are shot. I'm not sure why it is so hard for SMA tech support to 
> give me a simple answer on this. I just had a mind-melting hour-long phone 
> call with them about this and the easiest currently-available replacement for 
> an out-of-warranty SB6000US. I failed to get a straight answer on either 
> question.
> 
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB#000US LCD Displays

[Chris Sparadeo]

Jason,

Yes the LCD displays can be swapped out. I had an issue with one earlier
this year on a SB6000US and SMA sent a replacement. Very easy to swap out.
Good luck with tech support.

-Chris

On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 7:20 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> I'm zeroing in on an answer and will share when I get it. I sent an email
> at the recommendation of the first-line customer service rep. One person
> responded saying to call customer service (haha). A few minutes later
> another one said the cover needs to be replaced to maintain the NEMA
> 3R rating and gave me another email to get information on availability.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:05 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know if the LCD displays can be replaced? I have a client
>> with three SB6000US and one SB3000US all manufactured in 2007 and all four
>> displays are shot. I'm not sure why it is so hard for SMA tech support to
>> give me a simple answer on this. I just had a mind-melting hour-long phone
>> call with them about this and the easiest currently-available replacement
>> for an out-of-warranty SB6000US. I failed to get a straight answer
>> on either question.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB#000US LCD Displays

[Jason Szumlanski]

I'm zeroing in on an answer and will share when I get it. I sent an email
at the recommendation of the first-line customer service rep. One person
responded saying to call customer service (haha). A few minutes later
another one said the cover needs to be replaced to maintain the NEMA
3R rating and gave me another email to get information on availability.




On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:05 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> Does anyone know if the LCD displays can be replaced? I have a client with
> three SB6000US and one SB3000US all manufactured in 2007 and all four
> displays are shot. I'm not sure why it is so hard for SMA tech support to
> give me a simple answer on this. I just had a mind-melting hour-long phone
> call with them about this and the easiest currently-available replacement
> for an out-of-warranty SB6000US. I failed to get a straight answer
> on either question.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
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[RE-wrenches] SMA SB#000US LCD Displays

[Jason Szumlanski]

Does anyone know if the LCD displays can be replaced? I have a client with
three SB6000US and one SB3000US all manufactured in 2007 and all four
displays are shot. I'm not sure why it is so hard for SMA tech support to
give me a simple answer on this. I just had a mind-melting hour-long phone
call with them about this and the easiest currently-available replacement
for an out-of-warranty SB6000US. I failed to get a straight answer
on either question.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

I agree on the Trace and Xantrex SW's for offgrid. Bullet proof and easy
to install. I could never go back though to not having the graphics that a
networked system enables. Just to easy to look at a 24 hour battery graph
and see that the battery charged. Also multiple banks can be looked at. The
AES/Schneider is almost what you want as far as plug and play. Just enter
time and date on SCP. No computer needed and SOC is shown on SCP, or out to
insight like my previous insight screen. Almost 5 o'clock somewhere:) 


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

   

Links:
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[1]
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Ray]

I agree, the AES has a much friendlier voltage range.  Thanks for 
sharing, Dave.  I also do not use the RE Optics, I've moved away from 
Outback as well, after having issues with the FXR line, tech support, 
and wiring in the tiny enclosure that comes with the Radians.  Had 
decent luck with Magnum, but always room for improvement too.  Honestly, 
nothing now is that much better than the old Trace SW line, and that had 
plenty of its own issues.


Still waiting for inverter comm to catch up with the rest of the world, 
and be a simple plug and play, connect via blue tooth, set all the 
parameters in a Windows/ easy to navigate screen with tech manuals all 
accessible right in the app's help menu



Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 8/10/20 3:40 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


Hi Ray,

I guess it is not my last :)  I attached AES battery. Fortress is 
similar. AES quickstart on Schneider is program the time and date for 
config. You do not need a computer as the SCP can be used. Both are 
closed loop BMS to inverter/charger/mppt on xw and csw. I am hoping 
Outback will do something like this.


I have helped quite a few wrenches with getting the Insight monitoring 
going remotely. It is not any more difficult than optics which I run 
also. It is not easy, and the quickstart must be followed exactly. 
Attached a screen from 5 minutes back. It has been extremely reliable 
also.


Below is the case. My guess as to why this takes so long is that it is 
a UL cert issue for Schneider. Cost quite a bit of money for the 
testing or to change the range of LBCO. My guess only.


Date:   Mon, 10 Aug 2020 11:29:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: 	"Solar Support EMEA 
(solar.support.e...@schneider-electric.com)" 




A new case was just created using On Line – CIB Tech Support Schneider 
Electric Industries SAS.


Case Message:865 LBCO max is 48 vdc, needs to be higher for some 
batteries like simplyphi.



  
*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*


On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 14:47:49 -0600, Ray  wrote:

Appreciate forwarding this to Schneider.  So you never had any issues 
programming their monitoring system or getting it connected to the 
internet via the customer's router?


What is the LBCO recommended for the Li+ batteries you are using?  
Default on many inverters for FLA is 42 or 44 volts, so I didn't 
realize any Li+ batteries could work correctly that low.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 8/10/20 2:24 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[jay]

Ah that was the metric I didn’t understand the 2-10, is minutes. 

got it

j

> On Aug 10, 2020, at 1:24 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have forwarded this to Schneider. They gave me a case number in 30 minutes. 
>  I disagree that "all" Li batteries need this.  Obviously simplyphi does need 
> LBCO to be increased. The LBCO delay does help at 10 minutes from 2 minutes 
> default BTW.
> 
> I have not had your issues with tech support. Certainly room to improve but 
> not much different than Outback over the long haul. Let us agree to disagree. 
> I find Schneider to be the best for my requirements, 2nd is Outback.  I do 
> not use simplyphi. They are just too small of an offgrid battery and easy to 
> damage with XW and Radian. My last on this subject.
> 
>  
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060
> On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:40:22 -0600, Ray  wrote:
> 
>> It relates specifically to Simpliphi, but all brands of Li+ need much higher 
>> LBCO set points compared to Lead acid. Hysteresis and time don't fix the 
>> fact that once the batteries shut off before the inverter, the entire system 
>> is inoperable, with no charging available from the PV.  It creates an 
>> absolute failure, that requires a manual reset, and there is no reason for 
>> it.  It should be an easy firmware fix to allow LBCO to go above 48.  We've 
>> used other brands of inverters and had excellent results with extremely high 
>> efficiency charging, noticeably reduced gen run time, etc.  We can set the 
>> autostart on the generator to start higher, but as soon as there is a 
>> problem with the generator, we're snow shoeing in to save the house.  
>> Already done it 3 times this past Winter, so no, this is not a hypothetical 
>> problem. 
>> 
>> Also, I haven't mentioned Schneider's abysmal tech support throughout this 
>> problem.  Zero on site phone support, but we might get a call back a week 
>> later, and then the tech can only read from the manual: something we've 
>> already done. I dropped Schneider many years ago when they brought out the 
>> terrible TR line of inverters. Those had 100% customer dissatisfaction.  
>> They have yet to regain my support, and now after this latest experience, I 
>> have to refuse to even service systems with Schneider equipment.   
>> 
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> 303 505-8760
>> On 8/10/20 8:03 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
>>> Hey Ray,
>>> 
>>> Your comment on Schneider LBCO relates to which brand? Sympliyfi? Curious 
>>> because I will send this in again. I did last time and they said to make 
>>> sure the config person knows that you can also set the default LBCO 
>>> hysteresis from 2V to 10V and the LBCO time from 60 seconds up to 600 
>>> seconds.
>>> 
>>> Zero probes here for me with Discover AES and Fortress with Schneider 
>>> electronics. 
>>> 
>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
>>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>>> text 209 813 0060
>>> On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 18:47:50 -0600, Ray  
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> My favorite right now is Simpliphi: company has been around since 2002, and 
>>> as the name implies, they are simple to install.  There is no external 
>>> monitoring or comm, just an output breaker on each battery that can be 
>>> reset if the internal BMS ever shuts down for any reason.  We've done 
>>> several sets in new systems, and as battery replacements with older Outback 
>>> equipment.  Simpliphi provides a nice programming cheat sheet for all the 
>>> brands of inverters and charge controllers.
>>> 
>>> For smaller systems, the LiFe Blue batteries are great.  They have the best 
>>> monitoring (simple blue tooth to a free phone app)  and they are the only 
>>> Li+ battery that has a solution for cold weather charging that I'm aware 
>>> of.  Other battery companies have just given us the shoulder shrug and tell 
>>> us to install the battery in a conditioned space.  Not a good answer for 
>>> many off grid systems in the mountains. 
>>> 
>>> I'm not a huge fan of Blue Planet; if their battery is over discharged, it 
>>> requires a 48 v dark start.  I also did not find their enclosure to be NEC 
>>> code compliant to connect conduit to.  We had to modify it to allow a 2" 
>>> KO. Cable routing and connections internally are also awkward. Its just a 
>>> computer rack cabinet repurposed for batteries, but it does have pretty 
>>> blue Lights (which we disconnected at the customer's request)  Finally the 
>>> comm system is based on the E-gage, which was never designed for off grid 
>>> and depends on a constant router and internet connection to monitor.  That 
>>> is another deal killer for some remote projec

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Ray]

Appreciate forwarding this to Schneider.  So you never had any issues 
programming their monitoring system or getting it connected to the 
internet via the customer's router?


What is the LBCO recommended for the Li+ batteries you are using?  
Default on many inverters for FLA is 42 or 44 volts, so I didn't realize 
any Li+ batteries could work correctly that low.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 8/10/20 2:24 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


I have forwarded this to Schneider. They gave me a case number in 30 
minutes.  I disagree that "all" Li batteries need this.


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

I have forwarded this to Schneider. They gave me a case number in 30
minutes. I disagree that "all" Li batteries need this. Obviously simplyphi
does need LBCO to be increased. The LBCO delay does help at 10 minutes from
2 minutes default BTW. 

I have not had your issues with tech support.
Certainly room to improve but not much different than Outback over the long
haul. Let us agree to disagree. I find Schneider to be the best for my
requirements, 2nd is Outback. I do not use simplyphi. They are just too
small of an offgrid battery and easy to damage with XW and Radian. My last
on this subject.  

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:40:22 -0600, Ray  wrote:   


It relates specifically to Simpliphi, but all brands of Li+ need much
higher LBCO set points compared to Lead acid. Hysteresis and time don't fix
the fact that once the batteries shut off before the inverter, the entire
system is inoperable, with no charging available from the PV. It creates an
absolute failure, that requires a manual reset, and there is no reason for
it. It should be an easy firmware fix to allow LBCO to go above 48. We've
used other brands of inverters and had excellent results with extremely
high efficiency charging, noticeably reduced gen run time, etc. We can set
the autostart on the generator to start higher, but as soon as there is a
problem with the generator, we're snow shoeing in to save the house.
Already done it 3 times this past Winter, so no, this is not a hypothetical
problem.  

Also, I haven't mentioned Schneider's abysmal tech support
throughout this problem. Zero on site phone support, but we might get a
call back a week later, and then the tech can only read from the manual:
something we've already done. I dropped Schneider many years ago when they
brought out the terrible TR line of inverters. Those had 100% customer
dissatisfaction. They have yet to regain my support, and now after this
latest experience, I have to refuse to even service systems with Schneider
equipment.  
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
 On 8/10/20 8:03 AM,
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:  

Hey Ray, 

Your comment on Schneider
LBCO relates to which brand? Sympliyfi? Curious because I will send this in
again. I did last time and they said to make sure the config person knows
that you can also set the default LBCO hysteresis from 2V to 10V and the
LBCO time from 60 seconds up to 600 seconds. 

Zero probes here for me with
Discover AES and Fortress with Schneider electronics.   
Dave Angelini
Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[4]
text 209 813 0060

On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 18:47:50 -0600, Ray  [5] wrote: 


My favorite right now is Simpliphi: company has been around since 2002,
and as the name implies, they are simple to install. There is no external
monitoring or comm, just an output breaker on each battery that can be
reset if the internal BMS ever shuts down for any reason. We've done
several sets in new systems, and as battery replacements with older Outback
equipment. Simpliphi provides a nice programming cheat sheet for all the
brands of inverters and charge controllers. 

For smaller systems, the LiFe
Blue batteries are great. They have the best monitoring (simple blue tooth
to a free phone app) and they are the only Li+ battery that has a solution
for cold weather charging that I'm aware of. Other battery companies have
just given us the shoulder shrug and tell us to install the battery in a
conditioned space. Not a good answer for many off grid systems in the
mountains.  

I'm not a huge fan of Blue Planet; if their battery is over
discharged, it requires a 48 v dark start. I also did not find their
enclosure to be NEC code compliant to connect conduit to. We had to modify
it to allow a 2" KO. Cable routing and connections internally are also
awkward. Its just a computer rack cabinet repurposed for batteries, but it
does have pretty blue Lights (which we disconnected at the customer's
request) Finally the comm system is based on the E-gage, which was never
designed for off grid and depends on a constant router and internet
connection to monitor. That is another deal killer for some remote
projects. Internet connectivity is great when available, just the
monitoring can't be dependent on that connection. Their tech support was
good though. 

Beware that Schneider inverters LBCO can't be programmed
over 48v, which is a deal killer for most Li+ batteries. We currently have
a system that we are adding a relay to shut off AC output, that will be
triggered by the charge controller. That is just an amazingly kludgy
solution for a really dumb problem: not allowing higher settings of the
LBCO. Until Schneider releases a firmware update, they are not even being
considered for future projects.  
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Ray]

It relates specifically to Simpliphi, but all brands of Li+ need much 
higher LBCO set points compared to Lead acid. Hysteresis and time don't 
fix the fact that once the batteries shut off before the inverter, the 
entire system is inoperable, with no charging available from the PV.  It 
creates an absolute failure, that requires a manual reset, and there is 
no reason for it.  It should be an easy firmware fix to allow LBCO to go 
above 48.  We've used other brands of inverters and had excellent 
results with extremely high efficiency charging, noticeably reduced gen 
run time, etc. We can set the autostart on the generator to start 
higher, but as soon as there is a problem with the generator, we're snow 
shoeing in to save the house.  Already done it 3 times this past Winter, 
so no, this is not a hypothetical problem.


Also, I haven't mentioned Schneider's abysmal tech support throughout 
this problem.  Zero on site phone support, but we might get a call back 
a week later, and then the tech can only read from the manual: something 
we've already done. I dropped Schneider many years ago when they brought 
out the terrible TR line of inverters. Those had 100% customer 
dissatisfaction.  They have yet to regain my support, and now after this 
latest experience, I have to refuse to even service systems with 
Schneider equipment.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 8/10/20 8:03 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


Hey Ray,

Your comment on Schneider LBCO relates to which brand? Sympliyfi? 
Curious because I will send this in again. I did last time and they 
said to make sure the config person knows that you can also set the 
default LBCO hysteresis from 2V to 10V and the LBCO time from 60 
seconds up to 600 seconds.


Zero probes here for me with Discover AES and Fortress with Schneider 
electronics.


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*


On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 18:47:50 -0600, Ray  wrote:

My favorite right now is Simpliphi: company has been around since 
2002, and as the name implies, they are simple to install.  There is 
no external monitoring or comm, just an output breaker on each 
battery that can be reset if the internal BMS ever shuts down for any 
reason.  We've done several sets in new systems, and as battery 
replacements with older Outback equipment.  Simpliphi provides a nice 
programming cheat sheet for all the brands of inverters and charge 
controllers.


For smaller systems, the LiFe Blue batteries are great.  They have 
the best monitoring (simple blue tooth to a free phone app)  and they 
are the only Li+ battery that has a solution for cold weather 
charging that I'm aware of.  Other battery companies have just given 
us the shoulder shrug and tell us to install the battery in a 
conditioned space.  Not a good answer for many off grid systems in 
the mountains.


I'm not a huge fan of Blue Planet; if their battery is over 
discharged, it requires a 48 v dark start.  I also did not find their 
enclosure to be NEC code compliant to connect conduit to.  We had to 
modify it to allow a 2" KO. Cable routing and connections internally 
are also awkward. Its just a computer rack cabinet repurposed for 
batteries, but it does have pretty blue Lights (which we disconnected 
at the customer's request)  Finally the comm system is based on the 
E-gage, which was never designed for off grid and depends on a 
constant router and internet connection to monitor.  That is another 
deal killer for some remote projects.  Internet connectivity is great 
when available, just the monitoring can't be dependent on that 
connection.  Their tech support was good though.


Beware that Schneider inverters LBCO can't be programmed over 48v, 
which is a deal killer for most Li+ batteries.  We currently have a 
system that we are adding a relay to shut off AC output, that will be 
triggered by the charge controller. That is just an amazingly kludgy 
solution for a really dumb problem: not allowing higher settings of 
the LBCO.  Until Schneider releases a firmware update, they are not 
even being considered for future projects.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 8/9/20 5:30 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
I have outback FX systems operating for years now, the lab l had 
used FX's and midnite systems, it does need to be 48 volts nominal.

Jerry

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:13 PM Kirk Herander > wrote:


For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or
Blue Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion
LFP batteries. The newer FXR series are.
Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages,
duration, etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why
Outback states that older FX inverters are not compatible.
Outback  states this in a tech note about using LI batteries.

On

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Kirk Herander]

http://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/lithium_app_note.pdf 
[http://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/lithium_app_note.pdf]


This doesn't explain it, just omits older FX inverters from the Outback 
compatible list.

In terms of programming, I did not use Blue Planet's BI setpoints verbatim in 
the BI 2.0 (48v) system I set up with FXR inverters. They are definitely to be 
used as guidelines. I was able to get the backup genny to start almost 
PRECISELY at an 8% SOC and turn of at 70% according to the e-gauge, and easily 
do further tweaking remotely through the Mate3s via REoptics. I can share my 
setpoints if anyone is interested.

This is a remote site, at least 2 miles from grid power, but I have reliable 
internet using a Verizon jetpack cell modem/router (and you can also pull and 
use the verizon Sim card in 3rd party verizon-compatible devices).

In this application, the charging efficiency(and ability to use the entire kwh 
capacity of the bank) is outstanding compared to the old wet cell LA bank. 
BI-LFP bank has been installed 6 mos and genny has run a total of 55 hrs, 
compared to at least 250+ same time last year. 

I will say that Blue Planet definitely needs to expand and re-write their 
documentation. You will find gaps for sure which might leave you 
head-scratching the first time around. IMO this especially relates to battery 
combiner box design and recommendation. If you have more than one cabinet they 
need to parallel together safely using off-the-shelf components, properly rated 
and protected. Especially in the high voltage system I am about to install, 
1MWH @ 850 vdc. They really ought to sell a listed combiner with the system. I 
have almost weekly tech meetings with them getting all the details straight.
On 8/9/2020 8:30:04 PM, Jay  wrote:
Hi Kirk,

Can you explain why it wouldnt work?

Just setpoints. 

Jay

On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:13 PM, Kirk Herander  wrote:



For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or Blue Planet) 
older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion LFP batteries. The newer 
FXR series are.
Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages, duration, etc. 
to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why Outback states that older FX 
inverters are not compatible. 
Outback  states this in a tech note about using LI batteries.

On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org 
 wrote:
P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with
a 2600 W array.

---


On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
> Athens Electric
>
> --
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Hey Ray, 

Your comment on Schneider LBCO relates to which brand?
Sympliyfi? Curious because I will send this in again. I did last time and
they said to make sure the config person knows that you can also set the
default LBCO hysteresis from 2V to 10V and the LBCO time from 60 seconds up
to 600 seconds. 

Zero probes here for me with Discover AES and Fortress
with Schneider electronics.   
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where
powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net [2]
text 209 813 0060

On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 18:47:50
-0600, Ray  wrote:

My favorite right now is Simpliphi: company has
been around since 2002, and as the name implies, they are simple to
install. There is no external monitoring or comm, just an output breaker on
each battery that can be reset if the internal BMS ever shuts down for any
reason. We've done several sets in new systems, and as battery replacements
with older Outback equipment. Simpliphi provides a nice programming cheat
sheet for all the brands of inverters and charge controllers. 

For smaller
systems, the LiFe Blue batteries are great. They have the best monitoring
(simple blue tooth to a free phone app) and they are the only Li+ battery
that has a solution for cold weather charging that I'm aware of. Other
battery companies have just given us the shoulder shrug and tell us to
install the battery in a conditioned space. Not a good answer for many off
grid systems in the mountains.  

I'm not a huge fan of Blue Planet; if
their battery is over discharged, it requires a 48 v dark start. I also did
not find their enclosure to be NEC code compliant to connect conduit to. We
had to modify it to allow a 2" KO. Cable routing and connections internally
are also awkward. Its just a computer rack cabinet repurposed for
batteries, but it does have pretty blue Lights (which we disconnected at
the customer's request) Finally the comm system is based on the E-gage,
which was never designed for off grid and depends on a constant router and
internet connection to monitor. That is another deal killer for some remote
projects. Internet connectivity is great when available, just the
monitoring can't be dependent on that connection. Their tech support was
good though. 

Beware that Schneider inverters LBCO can't be programmed
over 48v, which is a deal killer for most Li+ batteries. We currently have
a system that we are adding a relay to shut off AC output, that will be
triggered by the charge controller. That is just an amazingly kludgy
solution for a really dumb problem: not allowing higher settings of the
LBCO. Until Schneider releases a firmware update, they are not even being
considered for future projects.  
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
 On
8/9/20 5:30 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:  I have outback FX systems operating
for years now, the lab l had used FX's and midnite systems, it does need to
be 48 volts nominal. Jerry  
  On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:13 PM Kirk Herander 
wrote:  For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or Blue
Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion LFP batteries.
The newer FXR series are. Considering one only needs to change slightly
charge voltages, duration, etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery
why Outback states that older FX inverters are not compatible.  Outback
states this in a tech note about using LI batteries.

On 8/9/2020 5:40:39
PM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org [4]  wrote: P.S. The system
consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with 
 a 2600 W array.


 --- 

 On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org [6]
wrote: 
 > Hello Wrenches, 
 > 
 > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use
with an off grid system? 
 > 
 > Thanks, 
 > 
 > Drake 
 > Athens Electric

 > 
 > -- 
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sponsored by Redwood Alliance 
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 >
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 >

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