Re: [RE-wrenches] Need two wire submersible cable and water pump miscellany

[Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches]

We recently installed a SunRotor pump and controller in a livestock and ag 
watering application. Pretty easy install and seems to be working well.The 
factory openings and glands didn't mate up well with the conduit and wire runs 
I used, but the aluminum cast case was moderately easy to modify.-GlennSent 
from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.-- 
Original message--From: William Miller via RE-wrenchesDate: Sat, Nov 19, 
2022 2:55 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: William Miller;Subject:[RE-wrenches] Need two 
wire submersible cable and water pump miscellanyFriends: Thanks to all of you 
that offered suggestions.  I found what I needed for this project:  Nassau 
National Cable offered a two wire, 14 AWG CU tray cable.  Attached is the data 
sheet if anyone is interested.   The vendor can be found at:  
www.nassaunationalcable.com.  They were very responsive. The cable mated quite 
nicely with the small gauge leads on the low water sensor and even with a very 
tough
  jacket
 was small enough to fit alongside the pump power cables in the conduit at the 
well-head. By the way, this installation used a Picocell 2000 pump controller 
which converts DC to single or three phase at 120 or 230 VAC.  It is good up to 
1 HP or a bit more.  It is a nice product.  I recommend an outboard DC switch 
and an adjacent J-box to hold service loops since the wiring compartment is 
quite small.  The controller is set up with gland fittings to facilitate 
jacketed cables but we switched those out for NMLT.  I have always preferred to 
protect wiring.  As another aside, our local well technicians could not source 
a low water sensor for us. Thunderbird solar has them.  Locally, the well 
technicians like using the Franklin pump-saver to protect a pump from dry 
running.  I don’t prefer the pump-saver because they are fickle, expensive and 
require some duration of dry run before they shut down.  We prefer a down-hole 
sensor.  With the lowering of water tables here in the a
 rid west, it
 is important to be able to protect well pumps from dry running and to provide 
for intermittent pumping to allow maximum production on slow-recharge wells.  
All of our wells will have low water sensors from now on. William Miller Miller 
Solar17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422805-438-5600www.millersolar.comCA Lic. 
773985  ___
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[RE-wrenches] Need two wire submersible cable and water pump miscellany

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



Thanks to all of you that offered suggestions.  I found what I needed for
this project:  Nassau National Cable offered a two wire, 14 AWG CU tray
cable.  Attached is the data sheet if anyone is interested.



The vendor can be found at:  *www.nassaunationalcable.com
*.  They were very responsive.



The cable mated quite nicely with the small gauge leads on the low water
sensor and even with a very tough jacket was small enough to fit alongside
the pump power cables in the conduit at the well-head.



By the way, this installation used a Picocell 2000 pump controller which
converts DC to single or three phase at 120 or 230 VAC.  It is good up to 1
HP or a bit more.  It is a nice product.  I recommend an outboard DC switch
and an adjacent J-box to hold service loops since the wiring compartment is
quite small.  The controller is set up with gland fittings to facilitate
jacketed cables but we switched those out for NMLT.  I have always
preferred to protect wiring.



As another aside, our local well technicians could not source a low water
sensor for us. Thunderbird solar has them.  Locally, the well technicians
like using the Franklin pump-saver to protect a pump from dry running.  I
don’t prefer the pump-saver because they are fickle, expensive and require
some duration of dry run before they shut down.  We prefer a down-hole
sensor.  With the lowering of water tables here in the arid west, it is
important to be able to protect well pumps from dry running and to provide
for intermittent pumping to allow maximum production on slow-recharge
wells.  All of our wells will have low water sensors from now on.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985


14 AWG THHN Tray Cable TC-ER (2).pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage lithiums

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

Another reason as Bradley suggests to avoid all of these problems and 
only install a closed loop battery power system.  Zero problems since 
Discover
came out with the AES in 2018 or so.  A 25% gain in charge time that 
genset users will love by closing the loop. Lot's more also!


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2022-11-19 10:28 am, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote:

On some LFP batteries the cell balancing only happens at full charge, 
so you do need to get to full every so often. Discover AES is one that 
needs this.


Brad

On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 10:10 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:
Another issue is what charge controller are you using? I know for me 
with Outback products I've had to switch from an FM 80 to the OB - FM 
100 in order to have a more accurate high-voltage cut out voltage.
The FM 100 has a much more accurate micro processor in it then the FM 
60 or 80 per Brad Bassett with AEE.


Dana Orzel
C: 208.721.7003
E- d...@solarwork.com

On Nov 19, 2022, at 7:15 AM, Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Hi Kris

What voltage do you have your charge settings at?

I recommend that bulk or absorb voltage for lithium iron phosphate not 
be set above 56 V  - there is no reason for it even though many 
manufactures suggest higher settings.  In cases where total storage 
is sized generously enough I  often use 55.6 or even 55.4 in order to 
target 95% as full instead of 100% in order to extend cycle life.   and 
for float there's no reason to ever go over 54 V and better maybe even 
to be in the mid-53s.


See if that helps assuming you had it higher.

The other thought is you have one bms that is perhaps not protecting 
overcharge  and allowing a temporary spike when the others do limit.


Hope that helps!

Best Jeff C.
Village Power Design

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 19, 2022, at 6:32 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Greetings all,

I have seen an issue on two different systems that I am hoping someone 
can shed some light on for me.  One was a 48 volt pack of 12 volt 
Battle Bornes and the other was a 24 volt pack of SOKs.  What happens 
is when reaching the end of the bulk charging stage, the battery 
voltage spikes and sends the inverter into an overvoltage error.  Can 
anyone explain what is happening and a solution?


Thanks,
Kris

Shine On!

Kris Schmid
Legacy Solar, LLC
137 West 1st Avenue
Luck, WI 54853
www.legacysolar.com [1]
715-653-4295
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
BSEE ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage lithiums

[John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches]

Great timely topic.  I Have a new installation with 3 eFlex and radian
system.  Setting were per Outback and Fortress and we had a series of
mid day hi voltage shut downs when our November sun returned.  Luckily
it has Optics and the unattended house is now happy with lowered top
voltages.  Ray, nice comment that we don't have any reason to charge
full now.

John Blittersdorf

On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 1:10 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches
 wrote:
>
> Another issue is what charge controller are you using? I know for me with 
> Outback products I’ve had to switch from an FM 80 to the OB - FM 100 in order 
> to have a more accurate high-voltage cut out voltage.
> The FM 100 has a much more accurate micro processor in it then the FM 60 or 
> 80 per Brad Bassett with AEE.
>
> Dana Orzel
> C: 208.721.7003
> E- d...@solarwork.com
>
> On Nov 19, 2022, at 7:15 AM, Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
>
> Hi Kris
>
> What voltage do you have your charge settings at?
>
> I recommend that bulk or absorb voltage for lithium iron phosphate not be set 
> above 56 V  - there is no reason for it even though many manufactures suggest 
> higher settings.  In cases where total storage is sized generously enough 
> I  often use 55.6 or even 55.4 in order to target 95% as full instead of 100% 
> in order to extend cycle life.   and for float there’s no reason to ever go 
> over 54 V and better maybe even to be in the mid-53s.
>
> See if that helps assuming you had it higher.
>
> The other thought is you have one bms that is perhaps not protecting 
> overcharge  and allowing a temporary spike when the others do limit.
>
> Hope that helps!
>
> Best Jeff C.
> Village Power Design
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Nov 19, 2022, at 6:32 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
>
> 
> Greetings all,
>
> I have seen an issue on two different systems that I am hoping someone can 
> shed some light on for me.  One was a 48 volt pack of 12 volt Battle Bornes 
> and the other was a 24 volt pack of SOKs.  What happens is when reaching the 
> end of the bulk charging stage, the battery voltage spikes and sends the 
> inverter into an overvoltage error.  Can anyone explain what is happening and 
> a solution?
>
> Thanks,
> Kris
>
> Shine On!
>
> Kris Schmid
> Legacy Solar, LLC
> 137 West 1st Avenue
> Luck, WI 54853
> www.legacysolar.com
> 715-653-4295
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
> BSEE
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage lithiums

[Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches]

On some LFP batteries the cell balancing only happens at full charge, so
you do need to get to full every so often. Discover AES is one that needs
this.

Brad

On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 10:10 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Another issue is what charge controller are you using? I know for me with
> Outback products I’ve had to switch from an FM 80 to the OB - FM 100 in
> order to have a more accurate high-voltage cut out voltage.
> The FM 100 has a much more accurate micro processor in it then the FM 60
> or 80 per Brad Bassett with AEE.
>
> Dana Orzel
> C: 208.721.7003
> E- d...@solarwork.com
>
> On Nov 19, 2022, at 7:15 AM, Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Kris
>
> What voltage do you have your charge settings at?
>
> I recommend that bulk or absorb voltage for lithium iron phosphate not be
> set above 56 V  - there is no reason for it even though many manufactures
> suggest higher settings.  In cases where total storage is sized
> generously enough I  often use 55.6 or even 55.4 in order to target 95% as
> full instead of 100% in order to extend cycle life.   and for float there’s
> no reason to ever go over 54 V and better maybe even to be in the mid-53s.
>
> See if that helps assuming you had it higher.
>
> The other thought is you have one bms that is perhaps not protecting
> overcharge  and allowing a temporary spike when the others do limit.
>
> Hope that helps!
>
> Best Jeff C.
> Village Power Design
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Nov 19, 2022, at 6:32 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
> Greetings all,
>
> I have seen an issue on two different systems that I am hoping someone can
> shed some light on for me.  One was a 48 volt pack of 12 volt Battle Bornes
> and the other was a 24 volt pack of SOKs.  What happens is when reaching
> the end of the bulk charging stage, the battery voltage spikes and sends
> the inverter into an overvoltage error.  Can anyone explain what is
> happening and a solution?
>
> Thanks,
> Kris
>
> Shine On!
>
> Kris Schmid
> Legacy Solar, LLC
> 137 West 1st Avenue
> Luck, WI 54853
> www.legacysolar.com
> 715-653-4295
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
> BSEE
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage lithiums

[Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches]

Another issue is what charge controller are you using? I know for me with 
Outback products I’ve had to switch from an FM 80 to the OB - FM 100 in order 
to have a more accurate high-voltage cut out voltage.
The FM 100 has a much more accurate micro processor in it then the FM 60 or 80 
per Brad Bassett with AEE.

Dana Orzel
C: 208.721.7003
E- d...@solarwork.com

> On Nov 19, 2022, at 7:15 AM, Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Kris
> 
> What voltage do you have your charge settings at?  
> 
> I recommend that bulk or absorb voltage for lithium iron phosphate not be set 
> above 56 V  - there is no reason for it even though many manufactures suggest 
> higher settings.  In cases where total storage is sized generously enough 
> I  often use 55.6 or even 55.4 in order to target 95% as full instead of 100% 
> in order to extend cycle life.   and for float there’s no reason to ever go 
> over 54 V and better maybe even to be in the mid-53s. 
> 
> See if that helps assuming you had it higher. 
> 
> The other thought is you have one bms that is perhaps not protecting 
> overcharge  and allowing a temporary spike when the others do limit. 
> 
> Hope that helps!  
> 
> Best Jeff C. 
> Village Power Design
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Nov 19, 2022, at 6:32 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> Greetings all,
>> 
>> I have seen an issue on two different systems that I am hoping someone can 
>> shed some light on for me.  One was a 48 volt pack of 12 volt Battle Bornes 
>> and the other was a 24 volt pack of SOKs.  What happens is when reaching the 
>> end of the bulk charging stage, the battery voltage spikes and sends the 
>> inverter into an overvoltage error.  Can anyone explain what is happening 
>> and a solution?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Kris
>> 
>> Shine On!
>> 
>> Kris Schmid
>> Legacy Solar, LLC
>> 137 West 1st Avenue
>> Luck, WI 54853
>> www.legacysolar.com
>> 715-653-4295
>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
>> BSEE
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>> 
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>> 
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>> 
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> 
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the 
>> other:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage lithiums

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

To add to Jeff's suggestion of targeting 95%, many Li+ batteries have a 
spike in voltage as they reach 100%.  We just don't have to worry 
anymore about sulfate damage from under charging.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 11/19/2022 7:14 AM, Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches wrote:

Hi Kris

What voltage do you have your charge settings at?

I recommend that bulk or absorb voltage for lithium iron phosphate not 
be set above 56 V  - there is no reason for it even though many 
manufactures suggest higher settings.      In cases where total 
storage is sized generously enough I  often use 55.6 or even 55.4 in 
order to target 95% as full instead of 100% in order to extend cycle 
life.   and for float there’s no reason to ever go over 54 V and 
better maybe even to be in the mid-53s.


See if that helps assuming you had it higher.

The other thought is you have one bms that is perhaps not protecting 
overcharge  and allowing a temporary spike when the others do limit.


Hope that helps!

Best Jeff C.
Village Power Design



Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 19, 2022, at 6:32 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:



Greetings all,

I have seen an issue on two different systems that I am hoping 
someone can shed some light on for me.  One was a 48 volt pack of 12 
volt Battle Bornes and the other was a 24 volt pack of SOKs.  What 
happens is when reaching the end of the bulk charging stage, the 
battery voltage spikes and sends the inverter into an overvoltage 
error.  Can anyone explain what is happening and a solution?


Thanks,
Kris

Shine On!

Kris Schmid
Legacy Solar, LLC
137 West 1st Avenue
Luck, WI 54853
www.legacysolar.com 
715-653-4295
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
BSEE
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage lithiums

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Hi Kris

What voltage do you have your charge settings at?  

I recommend that bulk or absorb voltage for lithium iron phosphate not be set 
above 56 V  - there is no reason for it even though many manufactures suggest 
higher settings.  In cases where total storage is sized generously enough I 
 often use 55.6 or even 55.4 in order to target 95% as full instead of 100% in 
order to extend cycle life.   and for float there’s no reason to ever go over 
54 V and better maybe even to be in the mid-53s. 

See if that helps assuming you had it higher. 

The other thought is you have one bms that is perhaps not protecting overcharge 
 and allowing a temporary spike when the others do limit. 

Hope that helps!  

Best Jeff C. 
Village Power Design



Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 19, 2022, at 6:32 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Greetings all,
> 
> I have seen an issue on two different systems that I am hoping someone can 
> shed some light on for me.  One was a 48 volt pack of 12 volt Battle Bornes 
> and the other was a 24 volt pack of SOKs.  What happens is when reaching the 
> end of the bulk charging stage, the battery voltage spikes and sends the 
> inverter into an overvoltage error.  Can anyone explain what is happening and 
> a solution?
> 
> Thanks,
> Kris
> 
> Shine On!
> 
> Kris Schmid
> Legacy Solar, LLC
> 137 West 1st Avenue
> Luck, WI 54853
> www.legacysolar.com
> 715-653-4295
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
> BSEE
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
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> other:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage lithiums

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi KrisCan you share what equipment is being used, watts of solar etc. ThxJayOn Nov 19, 2022, at 5:32 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches  wrote:Greetings all,I have seen an issue on two different systems that I am hoping someone can shed some light on for me.  One was a 48 volt pack of 12 volt Battle Bornes and the other was a 24 volt pack of SOKs.  What happens is when reaching the end of the bulk charging stage, the battery voltage spikes and sends the inverter into an overvoltage error.  Can anyone explain what is happening and a solution?Thanks,KrisShine On!Kris SchmidLegacy Solar, LLC137 West 1st AvenueLuck, WI 54853www.legacysolar.com715-653-4295NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalLicensed Wisconsin Master ElectricianBSEE
___List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage lithiums

[Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches]

Hi Kris,

When the BMS suddenly blocks charge, the voltage will spike up if the
charger can't respond quickly enough.

You may try to decrease charge voltage slightly.  This same affect can cook
an alternator in a vehicle as well.  Higher end BMS systems can shunt
current to mediate this.

Good luck!

On Sat, Nov 19, 2022, 5:32 AM Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Greetings all,
>
> I have seen an issue on two different systems that I am hoping someone can
> shed some light on for me.  One was a 48 volt pack of 12 volt Battle Bornes
> and the other was a 24 volt pack of SOKs.  What happens is when reaching
> the end of the bulk charging stage, the battery voltage spikes and sends
> the inverter into an overvoltage error.  Can anyone explain what is
> happening and a solution?
>
> Thanks,
> Kris
>
> Shine On!
>
> Kris Schmid
> Legacy Solar, LLC
> 137 West 1st Avenue
> Luck, WI 54853
> www.legacysolar.com
> 715-653-4295
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
> BSEE
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
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>
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[RE-wrenches] Low voltage lithiums

[Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches]

Greetings all,

I have seen an issue on two different systems that I am hoping someone can
shed some light on for me.  One was a 48 volt pack of 12 volt Battle Bornes
and the other was a 24 volt pack of SOKs.  What happens is when reaching
the end of the bulk charging stage, the battery voltage spikes and sends
the inverter into an overvoltage error.  Can anyone explain what is
happening and a solution?

Thanks,
Kris

Shine On!

Kris Schmid
Legacy Solar, LLC
137 West 1st Avenue
Luck, WI 54853
www.legacysolar.com
715-653-4295
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
BSEE
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