Re: [RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP

[Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches]

The key word there is Cobbled. The off grid or grid interactive (battery backup 
in case of grid down) world really needs to rely on a smart phone?

Why couldn’t Schnieder go the extra step and put a display “with enough memory” 
to support legacy and XW Pro equipment on the Insight product family. I.E. 
Cerbo GX with display from Victron. Schneider has all these cheap Chinese all 
in one product competition with display screens built in and some other 
products like the most excellent  Outback Radian that has yet to delete the 
Simple Man’s display. 

I understand the potential semiconductor shortage. I just hope Schneider can 
balance their approach. 


Thank you,

Maverick


> On Apr 3, 2023, at 9:15 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Eric Benstennof SE demoed a pretty slick replacement that he cobbled together 
> from off the shelf parts using a small tablet.
> I saw it in Jan at an Alt-E installer conference.
> I think I might have the details somewhere in my files, but it is basically 
> an inexpensive android tablet, a USB charging wart usingneither WiFi or a USB 
> type c Ethernet and power adaptwr and a wall mount for the tablet
> 
> -Glenn
> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.
> 
> -- Original message--
> From: Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches
> Date: Mon, Apr 3, 2023 7:31 PM
> To: RE-wrenches;
> Cc: Mac Lewis;
> Subject:[RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP
> 
> Hello Wrenches,
> 
> Now that Schneider has phased out SCP, what are the options for a GUI onsite 
> for non-savvy consumers?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac Lewis
> 
> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP

[Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches]

Eric Benstennof SE demoed a pretty slick replacement that he cobbled together 
from off the shelf parts using a small tablet.I saw it in Jan at an Alt-E 
installer conference.I think I might have the details somewhere in my files, 
but it is basically an inexpensive android tablet, a USB charging wart 
usingneither WiFi or a USB type c Ethernet and power adaptwr and a wall mount 
for the tablet-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and 
spelling errors.-- Original message--From: Mac Lewis via 
RE-wrenchesDate: Mon, Apr 3, 2023 7:31 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Mac 
Lewis;Subject:[RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCPHello Wrenches,Now 
that Schneider has phased out SCP, what are the options for a GUI onsite for 
non-savvy consumers?Thanks!-- Mac Lewis"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

You should tell Schneider this! I have been for a year now. There was 
not enough SCP memory for new XWP functions and a component became 
unavailable.


The Connext Home and Facility are definitely not for the non savvy as 
you say. They are easy for most to install and the non savvy can have it 
on their smart phone, if they can do that... You can easily monitor it 
for them and bill them. I do ! It does not require the internet for 
configuration and use.


https://solar.se.com/us/en/contact-us/

Or contact me off- list and I will give you a Schneider sales 
application engineers email.


On one hand they have really improved support but this was not an 
improvement. They should have known this but.


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2023-04-03 4:30 pm, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:


Hello Wrenches,

Now that Schneider has phased out SCP, what are the options for a GUI 
onsite for non-savvy consumers?


Thanks!
--

Mac Lewis

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates
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[RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP

[Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches]

Hello Wrenches,

Now that Schneider has phased out SCP, what are the options for a GUI
onsite for non-savvy consumers?

Thanks!

-- 



Mac Lewis

*"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

5 years old on 3 strings, it might not matter to mix, better get ready 
for a new bank.
I have never used more than 1 string for my clients and get closer to 10 
years life, so maybe there is better advice out there.


Good Luck!

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2023-04-03 11:03 am, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote:


Hello Wrenches,

Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550's. 2 of the batteries have given up 
the ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty.


The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls 
batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA 
batteries from a local battery house for the same price I am going to 
get the new Rolls for. And that also means they don't need to pay for 
freight. The net result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the 
batteries locally. No freight, and no markup on the batteries we 
provide (I can technically add the lost markup back in as labor, we do 
need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the 
batteries)


Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this?

3 x strings of 8 c S550's (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead 
batteries are on the same string.


Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark.

The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they 
baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously)


I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let 
them shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the 
chances are of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my 
head, I don't see a big issue, even if they are sub par, they will 
likely just get older faster, and fail around the same time as the rest 
of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I'm unsure if there are any more 
subtle issue that these other batteries would cause.


Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a 
fair shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when 
the whole battery bank finally gives out.


With Regards,

--

Danny Young

NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90

Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions

Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | 
Indianapolis


513-448-5176 (mobile)

877-312-7456 (Main Office)

da...@sesre.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi Danny

Lots of variables.  As the warranty is over, that is no longer a concern to 
deal with
The fact that you’ve had 2 go bad at the 5 year point, usually means you can 
expect other failures soon.  

There are 2 options I’ve done.
1. is to hi grade the battery bank into best 16 batteries, but that only works 
if that capacity is enough. Then as you get more failures in the near future ( 
probably) you’ll have extras to pop in.

2. is to go buy as close as possible another L16.  Given the age of them, a new 
battery is going to be in the ball park to the same capacity.  The chemistry of 
the rolls likes  2.5vpc but as they age that goes down in my experience as they 
begin to use way too much water.  So that allows the newer battery to actually 
be a better match. 

But you’re probably only looking at another few years to go.  My attitude with 
older batteries is they are already paid for, you  might as well use the crap 
out of them, treat them hard as they don’t have long to live. And most people 
just don’t have the extra money to just go out and buy a new expensive battery 
bank.  


jay




  



> On Apr 3, 2023, at 11:03 AM, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hello Wrenches,
>  
> Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550’s. 2 of the batteries have given up the 
> ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty.
>  
> The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls batteries 
> to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries from a local 
> battery house for the same price I am going to get the new Rolls for. And 
> that also means they don’t need to pay for freight. The net result is that 
> they could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No freight, and no 
> markup on the batteries we provide (I can technically add the lost markup 
> back in as labor, we do need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive 
> to swap the batteries)
>  
> Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this?
>  
> 3 x strings of 8 c S550’s (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead 
> batteries are on the same string.
> Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark.
> The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they baby 
> the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously)
>  
> I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them 
> shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are 
> of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don’t see a 
> big issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older faster, 
> and fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But 
> I’m unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other batteries 
> would cause.
>  
> Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a fair 
> shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the whole 
> battery bank finally gives out.
>  
> With Regards,
> --
>  
> Danny Young
> NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
> Engineering Team Lead
> Solar Energy Solutions
> Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
> 513-448-5176 (mobile)
> 877-312-7456 (Main Office)
> da...@sesre.com 
>  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

My 2 cents:  L16s are not a good choice in the first place. Compare the 
cycle life vs cost.
2nd that sounds like way too many batteries/ strings and definitely a 
candidate for larger format 2 v cells or Li+.


I second William's idea of creating 2 strings of the best cells, and 
start shopping for a better solution. You're going to start playing wack 
a mole, replace a couple of batteries now, a couple more in 2 months, 
and so on, until both you and the client are in tears. Put all that 
money and effort towards a new battery.


If they want sealed, Li+ is really the only decent choice, I've seen 
less than 5 years from sealed L16s like Trojan.  Full River is about the 
best in that field, and still only going to see 7 to 8 years.  It just 
doesn't pencil out compared to HUPs or Li+.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 4/3/2023 12:39 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:


Daniel:

I feel your pain:  In October of 2021 one of our off-grid clients had 
failed flooded L-16 batteries.  We needed 16 replacement batteries and 
chose Rolls VRLA batteries.  We could not get 16 due to supply chain 
constraints so we went for 8 with a back order for another 8.  It took 
until May of 2022 before we could get 8 more.


The Rolls batteries subsequently failed.  We were denied warranty 
relief in part because we mixed the exact same batteries but delivered 
7 months apart.  The cost of resolution came out of my pocket.


If you can’t mix the same batteries of slightly different age, I would 
extrapolate that you can’t mix batteries of different manufacturer.  
My guess is if you mix batteries the entire array would experience a 
hastened decline.  This conclusion is consistent with research done 
over many years.


I looked up the S550 batteries and learned they are 6 volts units.  
Assuming the system is 48 volt nominal this would be 3 strings of 8.  
Three strings is pushing the envelope of acceptable design.  Multiple 
parallel strings encourage circulating currents resulting in a process 
I call “battery cannibalism”:  Lower voltage batteries discharge the 
higher voltage batteries over time.


If it were me I would rearrange the batteries into two strings of the 
best batteries and wait for the rest of them to fail.  I would then 
redesign the system for one string with an appropriate AH rating.  Two 
volt cells are a practical way to achieve this.


Also look carefully at your thermal compliance.  Make sure you are 
using the proper temperature compensation value applied to all 
charging sources.  Avoid re-radiated heat from sunlit surfaces and 
proved good ventilation.


I hope this helps.

William Miller

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com 

CA Lic. 773985

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] 
*On Behalf Of *Daniel Young via RE-wrenches

*Sent:* Monday, April 3, 2023 11:04 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Daniel Young
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

Hello Wrenches,

Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550’s. 2 of the batteries have given up 
the ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty.


The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls 
batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA 
batteries from a local battery house for the same price I am going to 
get the new Rolls for. And that also means they don’t need to pay for 
freight. The net result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the 
batteries locally. No freight, and no markup on the batteries we 
provide (I can technically add the lost markup back in as labor, we do 
need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the batteries)


Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this?

3 x strings of 8 c S550’s (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead 
batteries are on the same string.


Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark.

The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they 
baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously)


I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let 
them shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the 
chances are of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my 
head, I don’t see a big issue, even if they are sub par, they will 
likely just get older faster, and fail around the same time as the 
rest of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I’m unsure if there are any 
more subtle issue that these other batteries would cause.


Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a 
fair shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when 
the whole battery bank finally gives out.


With Regards,

--

Danny Young

NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90

Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions

Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | 
Indianapolis

Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Daniel:



I feel your pain:  In October of 2021 one of our off-grid clients had
failed flooded L-16 batteries.  We needed 16 replacement batteries and
chose Rolls VRLA batteries.  We could not get 16 due to supply chain
constraints so we went for 8 with a back order for another 8.  It took
until May of 2022 before we could get 8 more.



The Rolls batteries subsequently failed.  We were denied warranty relief in
part because we mixed the exact same batteries but delivered 7 months
apart.  The cost of resolution came out of my pocket.



If you can’t mix the same batteries of slightly different age, I would
extrapolate that you can’t mix batteries of different manufacturer.  My
guess is if you mix batteries the entire array would experience a hastened
decline.  This conclusion is consistent with research done over many years.



I looked up the S550 batteries and learned they are 6 volts units.
Assuming the system is 48 volt nominal this would be 3 strings of 8.  Three
strings is pushing the envelope of acceptable design.  Multiple parallel
strings encourage circulating currents resulting in a process I call
“battery cannibalism”:  Lower voltage batteries discharge the higher
voltage batteries over time.



If it were me I would rearrange the batteries into two strings of the best
batteries and wait for the rest of them to fail.  I would then redesign the
system for one string with an appropriate AH rating.  Two volt cells are a
practical way to achieve this.



Also look carefully at your thermal compliance.  Make sure you are using
the proper temperature compensation value applied to all charging sources.
Avoid re-radiated heat from sunlit surfaces and proved good ventilation.



I hope this helps.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Daniel Young via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Monday, April 3, 2023 11:04 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Daniel Young
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank



Hello Wrenches,



Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550’s. 2 of the batteries have given up the
ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty.



The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls
batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries
from a local battery house for the same price I am going to get the new
Rolls for. And that also means they don’t need to pay for freight. The net
result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No
freight, and no markup on the batteries we provide (I can technically add
the lost markup back in as labor, we do need to make something off of the
3hr one way drive to swap the batteries)



Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this?



3 x strings of 8 c S550’s (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead
batteries are on the same string.

Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark.

The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they baby
the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously)



I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them
shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are
of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don’t see a
big issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older
faster, and fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery
bank. But I’m unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other
batteries would cause.



Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a fair
shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the whole
battery bank finally gives out.



With Regards,

--



Danny Young

NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90

Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions

Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville |
Indianapolis

513-448-5176 (mobile)

877-312-7456 (Main Office)

da...@sesre.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches]

Daniel,
If it was me, I wouldn't do it.  The biggest issue is that dissimilar
batteries (as well as different age batteries) have different internal
resistance.  This will only exacerbate the problem with running multiple
strings of batteries - that is they will charge and discharge at different
rates, causing the individual batteries to drift farther and farther
apart.  And even if the new batteries settled down into a similar
charge/discharge routine as the remaining bank, my experience has been that
often, when a couple batteries in a larger bank die, they are only the
first of many to find their way to becoming boat anchors. So you will
potentially find yourself needing replacement of more batteries sooner than
you'll be happy about.
My suggestion would be to sort through the remaining batteries to find the
healthiest 16 (through load and specific gravity testing), rearrange the
bank into 2 strings of 8, keeping the others for replacement of future
potential failures.  This will give you some breathing room to propare to
make the investment into a full replacement bank, be it Lead-Acid or
Lithium.
Howie

*Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher*

*NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™*

*Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004*


On Mon, Apr 3, 2023 at 2:04 PM Daniel Young via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hello Wrenches,
>
>
>
> Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550’s. 2 of the batteries have given up the
> ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty.
>
>
>
> The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls
> batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries
> from a local battery house for the same price I am going to get the new
> Rolls for. And that also means they don’t need to pay for freight. The net
> result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No
> freight, and no markup on the batteries we provide (I can technically add
> the lost markup back in as labor, we do need to make something off of the
> 3hr one way drive to swap the batteries)
>
>
>
> Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this?
>
>
>
> 3 x strings of 8 c S550’s (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead
> batteries are on the same string.
>
> Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark.
>
> The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they
> baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously)
>
>
>
> I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them
> shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are
> of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don’t see a
> big issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older
> faster, and fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery
> bank. But I’m unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other
> batteries would cause.
>
>
>
> Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a
> fair shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the
> whole battery bank finally gives out.
>
>
>
> With Regards,
>
> --
>
>
>
> Danny Young
>
> NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
>
> Engineering Team Lead
> Solar Energy Solutions
>
> Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville |
> Indianapolis
>
> 513-448-5176 (mobile)
>
> 877-312-7456 (Main Office)
>
> da...@sesre.com
>
>
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[RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[Daniel Young via RE-wrenches]

Hello Wrenches,

Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550's. 2 of the batteries have given up the 
ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty.

The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls batteries to 
save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries from a local 
battery house for the same price I am going to get the new Rolls for. And that 
also means they don't need to pay for freight. The net result is that they 
could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No freight, and no markup 
on the batteries we provide (I can technically add the lost markup back in as 
labor, we do need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the 
batteries)

Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this?

3 x strings of 8 c S550's (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead 
batteries are on the same string.
Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark.
The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they baby the 
battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously)

I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them shoot 
themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are of 
swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don't see a big 
issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older faster, and 
fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I'm 
unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other batteries would 
cause.

Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a fair 
shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the whole 
battery bank finally gives out.

With Regards,
--

Danny Young
NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions
Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
513-448-5176 (mobile)
877-312-7456 (Main Office)
da...@sesre.com

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