Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations

[Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches]

Don,
Thanks, but this is not the issue here.  The fluctuations happen anytime
the AC coupled inverter connects to the XW+'s "grid", not just when the
batteries are full.  The frequency only changes about 1/10 of a herz when
it connects, but it doesn't matter what the voltage is of the batteries,
the pulsation starts. Going over the settings with Eric Bentsen, we shut
off the AC coupled option to prevent the frequency shifting - this made no
difference.  We do have a contactor installed that disconnects the inverter
from AC when the voltage starts elevating past the charge voltage and it
has worked well for years. If I set up an AC coupled Off-Grid open loop
system in the future, I'm thinking that I would look to disconnect the DC
input as the batteries reach charged voltage - generally an easier cycling
for the system to endure. There is also a smaller, legacy DC coupled array
in this system which takes care of the finishing charge of the batteries
through a charge controller. Again, it has all worked well in the past,
only having any issues with AC fluctuations due to having the generator
charging load set too high for the existing generator. This was solved by
simply turning down the charge rate of the batteries and the visible light
fluctuations stopped.
Howie


On Sun, Jul 23, 2023 at 11:42 PM don energysolarnow.com <
d...@energysolarnow.com> wrote:

> Howie-
>  it sounds like the XW+ is trying to curtail the Solar Edge by shifting
> frequency, and the loads don't like it.
> When off-grid and batteries are charged there is no place for all that AC
> coupled solar power to go.
> This is an issue windmill folks have too. The solution can be as simple as
> a dump load such as a water heater to absorb the excess energy.
> Tell the customer to turn the hot tub up high, or something like that.
> Heat up a bathtub in a greenhouse and plant bananas.
>
> DonBarch
> Energy Solar
>
> From: Howie Michaelson 
> To: Dave Angelini , RE-wrenches
> 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations
> Message-ID:
>  ooj_p0_a_sjyvw7_-+8kc9yvfsnm9pkwvgk-xnjx...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi,
> I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. It
> turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled SolarEdge
> HDwave 6kW inverter.  Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with higher
> output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current through
> the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in direct
> proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the house,
> regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an oscilloscope,
> but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when the SolarEdge
> is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not producing.
> The output voltage does not change at all.  The fluctuations in both the
> lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge production
> is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters
> causing this issue.
>
> Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any suggestions
> for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a Schneider
> high voltage Charge Controller?
> Thanks,
> Howie
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations

[don energysolarnow.com via RE-wrenches]

Howie-
 it sounds like the XW+ is trying to curtail the Solar Edge by shifting 
frequency, and the loads don't like it.
When off-grid and batteries are charged there is no place for all that AC 
coupled solar power to go.
This is an issue windmill folks have too. The solution can be as simple as a 
dump load such as a water heater to absorb the excess energy.
Tell the customer to turn the hot tub up high, or something like that. Heat up 
a bathtub in a greenhouse and plant bananas.

DonBarch
Energy Solar

From: Howie Michaelson 
To: Dave Angelini , RE-wrenches

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi,
I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. It
turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled SolarEdge
HDwave 6kW inverter.  Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with higher
output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current through
the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in direct
proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the house,
regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an oscilloscope,
but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when the SolarEdge
is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not producing.
The output voltage does not change at all.  The fluctuations in both the
lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge production
is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters
causing this issue.

Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any suggestions
for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a Schneider
high voltage Charge Controller?
Thanks,
Howie

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

Take the covers off XW+ Boss !  Go to webinar this Thursday below.  
Happy Sunday !

---

Hi Friends,

Because we ran out of time during the XW Pro Troubleshooting webinar, we 
weren't able to take any questions.


I wanted to give you the opportunity to join this follow-up webinar, and 
this time I promise to leave plenty of time for Q&A.


This session will encapsulate all of the most popular and informative 
topics into one session.


✅ Understanding what sets XW Pro apart from the competition
✅ Essentials of designing a system
✅ Monitoring options
✅ Q&A

Register today!

https://solar.se.com/us/en/event/xw-pro-performance-design-and-monitoring/ 
[1]


 I look forward to seeing you then .Eric

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2023-07-23 7:40 am, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote:


Jay,
I'm not sure what Schneider has to say, since Tech Support has been 
impossible to reach this week (apparently something is wrong with their 
phone system) and it was only recently that we determined the cause.  
It should be under warranty, unless there is lightning damage. I will 
write to my support contacts and see if they have anything helpful to 
offer via email, although I find that form of communication with them 
to often be less than satisfactory.


Howie

On Sun, Jul 23, 2023 at 8:54 AM Jay via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Given that it worked fine for years it would appear that the XW+ has an 
issue.


I don't see how the SE could cause this.

Is it still under warranty? What does Schneider say about the issue.

Jay

On Jul 22, 2023, at 10:33 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Michael, that is my last ditch choice as I will be eating the cost and 
time.  When I installed this setup 4+ years ago, having done a few 
similar installations (although mostly on grid), I had not seen any 
issue with the design, nor heard anyone else suggesting that this 
design might cause this type of issue. And this did not become an issue 
at this site until a few months ago, having operated well until then. 
As I am now hearing, the XW+ is not well equipped to handle voltage 
regulation when dealing with AC coupled inverters. I don't really 
understand why the issue is just now showing up, although I suppose it 
could possibly be due to lightning damage. If the only solution is to 
install a high voltage charge controller, so be it.  Unfortunately this 
won't be an insignificant cost in dollars and time, a cost I'm not 
excited to be affording, particularly right now after taking on some 
substantial losses due to our recent historical flooding.  If there was 
another, less expensive solution, I'd be happy to hear about it. Sorry 
to sound whiny, I'm just not very happy about this eventuality...


Howie
Sun Catcher

Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service
802-272-0004

On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 11:49 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:
Replacing SE with Conext 600-100😊, Seriously, everything will then play 
nice together, and it's only a matter of time before the SE has to go.


On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 4:02 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Hi,
I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. 
It turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled 
SolarEdge HDwave 6kW inverter.  Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger 
with higher output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more 
current through the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably 
fluctuates in direct proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all 
the lights in the house, regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I 
did not have an oscilloscope, but looking at the Hz, it does sag very 
slightly to 59.9 when the SolarEdge is producing, down from a rock 
solid 60 Hz when the SE is not producing. The output voltage does not 
change at all.  The fluctuations in both the lights and the inverter 
hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge production is shut off. So it 
is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters causing this issue.


Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any 
suggestions for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge 
with a Schneider high voltage Charge Controller?


Thanks,

Howie

On Mon, Jul 3, 2023, 7:09 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via 
RE-wrenches  wrote:


I think I would try eliminating things. Turn off the AC coupling for a 
few days and get results. Turn of DC solar and get results. Measure AC 
voltage with a scope or just observe voltage during the flicker. Are 
all of the lights flickering? Are they on dimmers?  Are there any loads 
failing that could be the source? Is the output with-in spec? Rock 
solid 60 HZ right.


Do an AC bypass of XW with the genset and check for flicker symptoms.

Are they on Insight? They really 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations

[Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches]

Jay,
I'm not sure what Schneider has to say, since Tech Support has been
impossible to reach this week (apparently something is wrong with their
phone system) and it was only recently that we determined the cause.  It
should be under warranty, unless there is lightning damage. I will write to
my support contacts and see if they have anything helpful to offer via
email, although I find that form of communication with them to often be
less than satisfactory.
Howie


On Sun, Jul 23, 2023 at 8:54 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Given that it worked fine for years it would appear that the XW+ has an
> issue.
>
> I don’t see how the SE could cause this.
>
> Is it still under warranty? What does Schneider say about the issue.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On Jul 22, 2023, at 10:33 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
> Michael, that is my last ditch choice as I will be eating the cost and
> time.  When I installed this setup 4+ years ago, having done a few similar
> installations (although mostly on grid), I had not seen any issue with the
> design, nor heard anyone else suggesting that this design might cause this
> type of issue. And this did not become an issue at this site until a few
> months ago, having operated well until then. As I am now hearing, the XW+
> is not well equipped to handle voltage regulation when dealing with AC
> coupled inverters. I don't really understand why the issue is just now
> showing up, although I suppose it could possibly be due to lightning
> damage. If the only solution is to install a high voltage charge
> controller, so be it.  Unfortunately this won't be an insignificant cost in
> dollars and time, a cost I'm not excited to be affording, particularly
> right now after taking on some substantial losses due to our recent
> historical flooding.  If there was another, less expensive solution, I'd be
> happy to hear about it. Sorry to sound whiny, I'm just not very happy about
> this eventuality...
>
> *Howie **Sun Catcher*
>
>
> *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004*
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 11:49 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Replacing SE with Conext 600-100😊, Seriously, everything will then play
>> nice together, and it's only a matter of time before the SE has to go.
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 4:02 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue.
>>> It turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled
>>> SolarEdge HDwave 6kW inverter.  Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with
>>> higher output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current
>>> through the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in
>>> direct proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the
>>> house, regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an
>>> oscilloscope, but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when
>>> the SolarEdge is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not
>>> producing. The output voltage does not change at all.  The fluctuations in
>>> both the lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge
>>> production is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2
>>> inverters causing this issue.
>>>
>>> Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any
>>> suggestions for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a
>>> Schneider high voltage Charge Controller?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Howie
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 3, 2023, 7:09 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches
>>>  wrote:
>>>
 I think I would try eliminating things. Turn off the AC coupling for a
 few days and get results. Turn of DC solar and get results. Measure AC
 voltage with a scope or just observe voltage during the flicker. Are all of
 the lights flickering? Are they on dimmers?  Are there any loads failing
 that could be the source? Is the output with-in spec? Rock solid 60 HZ
 right.

 Do an AC bypass of XW with the genset and check for flicker symptoms.

 Are they on Insight? They really need it for you to monitor.  Are there
 any faults, warnings or events ? Check history.  There are a few settings
 in the old XW+ that could have been glitched by a surge or nearby lightning
 strike.

 XW+ could have a damaged FET. Open the unit and do a  visual.
 There would be a smell and transistor fragments on the bottom right
 side of the power bridge. 90% of XW failures have visual evidence.

 While you have it open, Check the DSP sensing and control board, both
 LEDs (light-emitting diodes) D24 and D25 are on.

 Last thing is a DC power down of the unit and the DC buss for 5
 minutes.  If that does not work, then a

Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Given that it worked fine for years it would appear that the XW+ has an issue. I don’t see how the SE could cause this. Is it still under warranty? What does Schneider say about the issue. JayOn Jul 22, 2023, at 10:33 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches  wrote:Michael, that is my last ditch choice as I will be eating the cost and time.  When I installed this setup 4+ years ago, having done a few similar installations (although mostly on grid), I had not seen any issue with the design, nor heard anyone else suggesting that this design might cause this type of issue. And this did not become an issue at this site until a few months ago, having operated well until then. As I am now hearing, the XW+ is not well equipped to handle voltage regulation when dealing with AC coupled inverters. I don't really understand why the issue is just now showing up, although I suppose it could possibly be due to lightning damage. If the only solution is to install a high voltage charge controller, so be it.  Unfortunately this won't be an insignificant cost in dollars and time, a cost I'm not excited to be affording, particularly right now after taking on some substantial losses due to our recent historical flooding.  If there was another, less expensive solution, I'd be happy to hear about it. Sorry to sound whiny, I'm just not very happy about this eventuality...Howie Sun CatcherSolar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 11:49 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches  wrote:Replacing SE with Conext 600-100😊, Seriously, everything will then play nice together, and it's only a matter of time before the SE has to go.On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 4:02 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches  wrote:Hi,I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. It turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled SolarEdge HDwave 6kW inverter.  Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with higher output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current through the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in direct proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the house, regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an oscilloscope, but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when the SolarEdge is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not producing. The output voltage does not change at all.  The fluctuations in both the lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge production is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters causing this issue.Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a Schneider high voltage Charge Controller? Thanks,HowieOn Mon, Jul 3, 2023, 7:09 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches  wrote:
I think I would try eliminating things. Turn off the AC coupling for a few days and get results. Turn of DC solar and get results. Measure AC voltage with a scope or just observe voltage during the flicker. Are all of the lights flickering? Are they on dimmers?  Are there any loads failing that could be the source? Is the output with-in spec? Rock solid 60 HZ right.
 

Do an AC bypass of XW with the genset and check for flicker symptoms.
 

Are they on Insight? They really need it for you to monitor.  Are there any faults, warnings or events ? Check history.  There are a few settings in the old XW+ that could have been glitched by a surge or nearby lightning strike.
 
XW+ could have a damaged FET. Open the unit and do a  visual. 
There would be a smell and transistor fragments on the bottom right side of the power bridge. 90% of XW failures have visual evidence. 

 
While you have it open, Check the DSP sensing and control board, both LEDs (light-emitting diodes) D24 and D25 are on.

 
Last thing is a DC power down of the unit and the DC buss for 5 minutes.  If that does not work, then a reset to factory values.
This is off an old list I got from Support many years ago and combined with my findings over the years. Really rare for this kind of weirdness and why it would be getting worse without visual evidence.
 
Good Luck Howie!
 
 
 

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060


 

On 2023-07-03 12:42 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote:



Hi All,
I upgraded an old clients' off-grid system about five years ago to a Schneider XW6848+ and 2 Blue Ion 2.0 cabinets (32kWh). When the batteries were moving toward full, if the charge rate was on the higher side via generator or solar (AC coupled w/SolarEdge 6kW and DC coupled with an FM 80), they would start to get pulsating lights similar to symptoms of other older inverters when using a generator for cha