Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh 
batteries, 48 v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off 
grid.  This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the 
barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The RMA/ Warranty process has not been 
smooth.  It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi, 
and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to 
accept used Li+ batteries for shipment.  To their credit, tech support 
has been knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site.


 Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, 
after several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low 
voltage. (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the 
customer started the generator and tried to revive the system, he 
noticed one of the batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after 
consulting with Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a 
small aux charger.  I checked this charger and it was quite stable at a 
max of 58 v.  By the time I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept 
even milliamps of charge current. The BMSs had all disconnected the 
batteries from the buss, but strangely there was residual voltage 
(51vdc) on the terminals.  It was not usable however, and crashed to 18 
v upon connection to the inverter with no loads.


Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage 
event.  Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback 
FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi 
integration guides.   BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they 
just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics 
failed = customer's fault.  I think it failed because of the voltage 
differential between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage.  
If  the BMS can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper 
programming on industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off 
grid applications.  Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending 
their equipment for off grid; its a tough gig.


How many times have we all heard the old '/Manu S blaming Manu X'/ snafu 
on this list?  Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over 
voltage events.  Well, that should be mentioned in the integration 
guide, so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter 
with their batteries.


So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would 
have cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set.  
That's approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*. Simpliphi is saying 
they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be 
seen.  The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 
weeks in sub zero weather at 9000 ft.  Also, why would we want to 
reinstall more of these, without any assurance that this won't happen 
again in a couple of years?


In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a 
complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, 
or with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu.  I thought 
I was providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead 
acid batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs.  It's 
2024, but lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance 
are quite robust and predictable.  Even when they fail, there are plenty 
of warning signs beforehand.  They also can handle below freezing 
weather, and I am just not a fan of the whole '/battery heating do it 
yourself off Ebay with pet heaters'/ BS either.


*Li+ is just not ready for off grid.*  It seems to work fine for folks 
that don't rely on it, like GTB.


At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off 
of lead acid.   Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? 
We were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under 
the guise that this was NOT a /'Fly by night/ made in China/' offering.  
Based on cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime.  I hate being 
wrong.  I can only pray that more of these high price tag batteries 
don't start failing on my watch.


I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give Simpliphi a 
chance to make this right. However, this week I heard their "diagnosis", 
and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it was time.  


Sincerely,

Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:
One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS 
failure/warranty/fix/replacement.


Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM.

I guess its something else we need to check on.

Jay



On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an 
Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of 
course East Penn is

Re: [RE-wrenches] generator charging question/VFX3524

[John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches]

Chris, I am doing just what you are contemplating.  I have a 6000 watt
Briggs & Stratton Gasoline worksite generator and had the same issue
charging my Fortress Eflex batteries.  I was getting 25 amps off one leg
but the genny wasn't happy about it.  I ran another line off of leg 2
directly to an Iota DLS 54-13 and now I get almost 40 amps and the
generator runs more smoothly. The only problem with the older outback
inverter is that the low battery cutout will only go up to 48 V when it
should be closer to 50 or more. As long as the customer keeps an eye on the
voltage or the generator has AGS, there is  no problem  If the batteries do
shut themselves down, the Iota charger can boot them back to life ... a
good reason to have the second non generator charger. I have considered
hooking up a second IOTA charger to see if I can get 50 amps out of my
generator without it working too hard.
I

John Blittersdorf

NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™



CV Wind Service (and solar)

200 West Road

N Chittenden, VT 05763

802-770-8625

www.offgridvermont.com


On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 3:56 PM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi folks:
>
>
>
> So, we have a customer (equipment not acquired from us)  with an older
> OUTBACK VFX3524, charging their 3 X RB24V200 ReLion LFP batteries vis a
> vis one leg of their generator.  The battery is capable of up to 200A
> recharge though the manufacturer recommends 10~100A.  The customer has a
> 240VAC generator with two 120VAC legs; customer wants to bump up the
> charging to over 22.5A, preferably more; they’re running their gennie a
> lot to get a rather slow rate of charge from the inverter’s charger.
> Presently the customer has the Inverter/charger connected through the
> FLEXware 250 enclosure. There is not a busbar in place.  The idea
> presented is to use an external battery charger that would pull from the
> other leg of the 240VAC gen set to supplement the charging capability.   The
> question becomes: can we use a busbar with disparate amps charging to bump
> up the charging rate for the LiFePo4 battery?  Outback techs are saying
> the VFX3524 is not LiFePo4 compatible, but they also say they need to stack
> another inverter. I think we are looking at letting the smoke out of the
> least-producing charger by pushing amperages back.   What do y’all think?
> Any and all ideas are under consideration.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Chris Daum
>
> Oasis Montana Inc.
>
> 406-777-4309 or 4321
>
> 406-777-4309 fax
>
> www.oasismontana.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
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[RE-wrenches] generator charging question/VFX3524

[Chris Daum via RE-wrenches]

Hi folks:
 
So, we have a customer (equipment not acquired from us)  with an older OUTBACK 
VFX3524, charging their 3 X RB24V200 ReLion LFP batteries vis a vis one leg of 
their generator.  The battery is capable of up to 200A recharge though the 
manufacturer recommends 10~100A.  The customer has a 240VAC generator with two 
120VAC legs; customer wants to bump up the charging to over 22.5A, preferably 
more; they’re running their gennie a lot to get a rather slow rate of charge 
from the inverter’s charger. Presently the customer has the Inverter/charger 
connected through the FLEXware 250 enclosure. There is not a busbar in place.  
The idea presented is to use an external battery charger that would pull from 
the other leg of the 240VAC gen set to supplement the charging capability.   
The question becomes: can we use a busbar with disparate amps charging to bump 
up the charging rate for the LiFePo4 battery?  Outback techs are saying the 
VFX3524 is not LiFePo4 compatible, but they also say they need to stack another 
inverter. I think we are looking at letting the smoke out of the 
least-producing charger by pushing amperages back.   What do y’all think?  Any 
and all ideas are under consideration.
 
Best,
 
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309 or 4321
406-777-4309 fax
www.oasismontana.com   
 
 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] rolls battery question

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

The three interconnects between the 2v cells are bolted.   If they are over
15 years they might be welded...

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com










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On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 12:21 PM jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Can anyone tell me off the top of their head if older Rolls
>
> 6CS 25PS
>
> Do they have welded or bolted internal connections?
>
> I have a site I’m going to, very remote that might have a bad cell or two
> and I’m just figuring out how I’m going to bypass the bad cells.
>
> thanks
>
> jay
>
>
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[RE-wrenches] rolls battery question

[jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi All,

Can anyone tell me off the top of their head if older Rolls 

6CS 25PS

Do they have welded or bolted internal connections?

I have a site I’m going to, very remote that might have a bad cell or two and 
I’m just figuring out how I’m going to bypass the bad cells. 

thanks

jay


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Deka Duration

[Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches]

Yes, I’ve put a few systems together with these batteries, smaller ones. Some 
larger ones in the queue.

The product itself seems well designed, and flexible for many different 
configurations – low or high voltage and scales from 1 to 100’s of batteries. 
The WiFi / Bluetooth software interface & documentation is very poor. Still 
haven’t managed successful WiFi connections.

I’ve never figured out why it seems all Lithium batteries have such tiny ¼” 
battery terminals with # 4 interconnect cables. It comes with DC cables low and 
high voltage, data cables, wall mount brackets & anchors if using that method. 
Additional components needed for floor stacking.

One of my concerns with all the players in the Lithium world right now, and the 
inevitable fly-by-night box-moving operations that will go out of business, 
leaving clients hanging with warranties, is I wanted to work with an 
established company like East Penn who understands their product.

Kevin

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
William Miller via RE-wrenches
Sent: February-07-24 4:46 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: William Miller 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deka Duration

Pals:

Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad?

https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka

We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated lead-acid 
batteries.

William

Miller Solar
17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
CA Lic. 773985


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[RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[jay via RE-wrenches]

One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS 
failure/warranty/fix/replacement.   

Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM.

I guess its something else we need to check on.  

Jay



> On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an Italian 
> Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of course East Penn 
> is good to work with. My understanding is that they do work with the three 
> phase Sol-Ark inverters. 
> 
> Brad
> 
> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches 
>  > wrote:
> Pals:
> 
>  
> Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad?
> 
>  
> https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka 
> 
>  
> We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated 
> lead-acid batteries.
> 
>  
> William
> 
>  
> Miller Solar
> 
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
> 
> 805-438-5600
> 
> www.millersolar.com 
> CA Lic. 773985
> 
>  
>  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Insight Home and Insight Cloud

[jay via RE-wrenches]

I guess the SCP is back in production.  

But if I understand correctly you still need the insight to program the XWPRO 
versions?

thx 

jay


> On Feb 7, 2024, at 8:50 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> My experience with using Insight and Xanbus is that the projects never end. 
> It is too bad, since Schneider equipment seems really good. The software 
> issues don't seem to ever get completely solved. Possibly with a very simple 
> system, the Xanbus might work OK. 
> 
> Drake Chamberlin
> 
> Athens Electric LLC
> 
> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810
> 
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> 
> 
> 
> ---
>  
> 
> 
> On 2024-02-05 12:27, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote:
> 
>> Aloha All,
>>  
>> I recently installed 2 new off-grid systems using all Scneider products, 
>> Discover 7.4 batteries and the Insight Home all setup in Insight Cloud. Both 
>> systems are experiencing communications issues with Insight Cloud and a bit 
>> on the Xanbus. Though each in a different way. 
>>  
>> Before I go into specifics, has anyone else been having issues with Insight 
>> Cloud or the Xanbus recently? 
>> Just wondering if it is a me problem or a they problem.
>>  
>> I have gone through all the standard tech support phone call instructions. 
>> All firmware updated, comms cables checked, internet speeds confirmed to be 
>> good, system set back to system defaults and reprogrammed, etc...
>>  
>> Thanks for your time.
>> 
>> Aloha,
>>  
>> Lou Russo 
>> Owner
>> l...@spreesolarsystems.com 
>> 808 345 6762
>> Spree Solar Systems LLC 
>> CT-34322
>>  
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Deka Duration

[Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches]

Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an
Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of course
East Penn is good to work with. My understanding is that they do work with
the three phase Sol-Ark inverters.

Brad

On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Pals:
>
>
>
> Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad?
>
>
>
> https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka
>
>
>
> We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated
> lead-acid batteries.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Insight Home and Insight Cloud

[Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches]

My experience with using Insight and Xanbus is that the projects never
end. It is too bad, since Schneider equipment seems really good. The
software issues don't seem to ever get completely solved. Possibly with
a very simple system, the Xanbus might work OK.  

_Drake Chamberlin_ 

_Athens Electric LLC_ 

_Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ 

_NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ 


---

On 2024-02-05 12:27, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote:

Aloha All, 

I recently installed 2 new off-grid systems using all Scneider products, Discover 7.4 batteries and the Insight Home all setup in Insight Cloud. Both systems are experiencing communications issues with Insight Cloud and a bit on the Xanbus. Though each in a different way.  

Before I go into specifics, has anyone else been having issues with Insight Cloud or the Xanbus recently?  
Just wondering if it is a me problem or a they problem. 

I have gone through all the standard tech support phone call instructions. All firmware updated, comms cables checked, internet speeds confirmed to be good, system set back to system defaults and reprogrammed, etc... 

Thanks for your time. 

Aloha, 

Lou Russo  
Owner 
l...@spreesolarsystems.com 
808 345 6762 
Spree Solar Systems LLC  
CT-34322 


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[RE-wrenches] Deka Duration

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Pals:



Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad?



https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka



We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated
lead-acid batteries.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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