Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches]

Hi John,

Do you know what firmware version was causing your initial over-voltage 
situation?

Kevin

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of John 
Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches
Sent: Friday, February 9, 2024 8:09 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: John Blittersdorf 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

Ray,
   With this batch of posts about lithium batteriem and several mentions of XW 
inverters and overcharging, I just have to chime in with my experience with one 
I installed and one installed by someone else. Both were charging 48V L16 wet 
cell batteries.  In both cases with charge settings double checked and triple 
checked, I had both shoot past the 57.2 volt absorb setting and destroyed the 
batteries. In one case a battery blew its top off.  The other we caught in time 
and shut it down. That one had some bad cells in 3 strings of 8 (not the one I 
installed) and when I arrived there the room was HOT from the boiling 
batteries.  I replaced them with 2 strings of 8 and though I was skeptical 
about the charge rate being stable, left it to the owner to monitor. That was 
last year and he has recently called to have me check a potential overcharging 
issue.  The other one I installed with 8 L16 batteries in a grid tie 
application and the after several years of working properly suddenly started 
overcharging out of control. WHen the customer called saying that the batteries 
were overheating, I told him to switch the inverter to bypass and shut all the 
DC switches off.  I was at the Midwest Enegy Fair and not able to check it out 
right away. When I returned, I filled the batteries up and turned the system on 
and the voltage shot up past 60 then 65 volts and I shut it down.  Fast forward 
2 years... Schneider techs finally admitted that there was a firmware problem 
and after much agrivation getting the firmware updated with no internet and 
poor phone coverage, got it back working OK.  Fast forward again 2 more years, 
problem is back.  I have the system set to charge at 1 amp and am able to at 
least keep the inverter on to sell his solar power. Ready to start round 3 with 
Schneider, this time with internet and good phone service  By the way, I have 
never had overcharge issues with Outback unless my settings were too high.  
Someone mentioned lack of overcharge protection on some Lithium BMS's.  I know 
for a fact that the Fortress E-flex does when I forgot to change from very high 
lead acid settings on the Outback Radian  when installing the Fortress 
batteries.  They nicely shut down at 60 volts and turned back on after I 
stopped the overcharge.
John Blittersdorf

On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 12:17 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:

We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh batteries, 48 
v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off grid.  This set lasted 
5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The 
RMA/ Warranty process has not been smooth.  It took almost a week to even get 
shipping info from Simpliphi, and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, 
and get Fed Ex to accept used Li+ batteries for shipment.  To their credit, 
tech support has been knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while 
on site.

 Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after 
several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. (so 
far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer started the 
generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the batteries 
didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with Simpliphi, he 
charged each battery separately with a small aux charger.  I checked this 
charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v.  By the time I arrived, all 4 
batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge current. The BMSs had all 
disconnected the batteries from the buss, but strangely there was residual 
voltage (51vdc) on the terminals.  It was not usable however, and crashed to 18 
v upon connection to the inverter with no loads.

Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage event. 
 Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback FM100 and the 
Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi integration guides.   BTW, 
Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they just don't like the look of how 
their electronics fried. Electronics failed = customer's fault.  I think it 
failed because of the voltage differential between the low battery voltage and 
normal charge voltage.  If  the BMS can't survive in a typical off grid 
environment, with proper programming on industry standard equipment, its not 
suitable for off grid applications.  Plenty of manus have decided to quit 
recommending their equipment for off grid; its a tough gig.

How many times have we all heard the old 'Manu S blaming Manu X' snafu on this 
list?  Simpliphi is saying that 

Re: [RE-wrenches] XW EQ question

[Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches]

Hi Jay, 

I've not tried EQ via CC. But could try that tomorrow on my system as forecast 
is for lots of sun and batteries nearly full. 

Kevin

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of jay 
via RE-wrenches
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2024 3:43 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: jay 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] XW EQ question

Hi Kevin

Thanks, I heard that exact thing from someone else.

Do you know if the CC are connected via Xanbus, does that also prevent EQ in 
the CC?

Jay

> On Feb 12, 2024, at 4:36 PM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have seen the same behaviour on a few older XW6048's as well - including my 
> own. It will go into EQ mode after completion of Absorb charge, but voltage 
> does not increase as programmed. Adjusting the absorb settings manually is a 
> clumsy workaround. I assumed it's a software bug. 
> 
> Kevin
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
> jay via RE-wrenches
> Sent: February-12-24 11:36 AM
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Cc: jay 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW EQ question
> 
> HI All,
> 
> I have a client with an older XW 6048 with 2 x XW-60 controllers, SCP etc.
> 
> He can’t seem to get the EQ to work with either equipment.
> 
> Its set to 62.4v for Rolls flooded batteries, but it won’t go above 60v.
> 
> It is charging normally to just at 60v so its not a temp sensor failure.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> thanks
> 
> jay
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] XW EQ question

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

What's funny, is the good old SWs from the Trace days had the same 
problem.   Never could get them to equalize.  Maybe that software 
carried over.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 2/12/2024 4:42 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:

Hi Kevin

Thanks, I heard that exact thing from someone else.

Do you know if the CC are connected via Xanbus, does that also prevent EQ in 
the CC?

Jay


On Feb 12, 2024, at 4:36 PM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

I have seen the same behaviour on a few older XW6048's as well - including my 
own. It will go into EQ mode after completion of Absorb charge, but voltage 
does not increase as programmed. Adjusting the absorb settings manually is a 
clumsy workaround. I assumed it's a software bug.

Kevin

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of jay 
via RE-wrenches
Sent: February-12-24 11:36 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: jay 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW EQ question

HI All,

I have a client with an older XW 6048 with 2 x XW-60 controllers, SCP etc.

He can’t seem to get the EQ to work with either equipment.

Its set to 62.4v for Rolls flooded batteries, but it won’t go above 60v.

It is charging normally to just at 60v so its not a temp sensor failure.

Any thoughts?

thanks

jay


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Re: [RE-wrenches] XW EQ question

[jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi Kevin

Thanks, I heard that exact thing from someone else.

Do you know if the CC are connected via Xanbus, does that also prevent EQ in 
the CC?

Jay

> On Feb 12, 2024, at 4:36 PM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have seen the same behaviour on a few older XW6048's as well - including my 
> own. It will go into EQ mode after completion of Absorb charge, but voltage 
> does not increase as programmed. Adjusting the absorb settings manually is a 
> clumsy workaround. I assumed it's a software bug. 
> 
> Kevin
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
> jay via RE-wrenches
> Sent: February-12-24 11:36 AM
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Cc: jay 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW EQ question
> 
> HI All,
> 
> I have a client with an older XW 6048 with 2 x XW-60 controllers, SCP etc.
> 
> He can’t seem to get the EQ to work with either equipment.
> 
> Its set to 62.4v for Rolls flooded batteries, but it won’t go above 60v.
> 
> It is charging normally to just at 60v so its not a temp sensor failure.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> thanks
> 
> jay
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] XW EQ question

[Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches]

I have seen the same behaviour on a few older XW6048's as well - including my 
own. It will go into EQ mode after completion of Absorb charge, but voltage 
does not increase as programmed. Adjusting the absorb settings manually is a 
clumsy workaround. I assumed it's a software bug. 

Kevin

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of jay 
via RE-wrenches
Sent: February-12-24 11:36 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: jay 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW EQ question

HI All,

I have a client with an older XW 6048 with 2 x XW-60 controllers, SCP etc.

He can’t seem to get the EQ to work with either equipment.

Its set to 62.4v for Rolls flooded batteries, but it won’t go above 60v.

It is charging normally to just at 60v so its not a temp sensor failure.

Any thoughts?

thanks

jay


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[RE-wrenches] XW EQ question

[jay via RE-wrenches]

HI All,

I have a client with an older XW 6048 with 2 x XW-60 controllers, SCP etc.

He can’t seem to get the EQ to work with either equipment.

Its set to 62.4v for Rolls flooded batteries, but it won’t go above 60v.

It is charging normally to just at 60v so its not a temp sensor failure.

Any thoughts?

thanks

jay


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array

[Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches]

Hi, in what way?  The loading is obviously less, and the clamps are 
rated for the load.


On 2/12/2024 10:56 AM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:


How do you deal with the rain gutters?


Drake Chamberlin

Media & Communication Action Project

https://m-cap.org/

---


On 2024-02-08 16:46, Sky Sims via RE-wrenches wrote:

I've designed and installed several thousand cantilevered arrays over 
the last three decades and never had a single issue. Unfortunately, 
code changes have taken a turn for the worse in most jurisdictions 
and oftentimes disallow cantilevering.


Sky Sims
Https://EcologicalSystems.org
732-462-3858

On Jan 19, 2024, at 3:09 PM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


I've done a fair amount of roof mounted solar structural compliance, 
and I would say that the cantilevered design looks like a disaster 
waiting to happen. You could not use conventional solar racking 
products.  Chris




On 1/13/2024 12:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:


Drake

My earlier reply may have been a bit facetious.  What I meant by it 
was that big-box solar contractors can be lazy when it comes to 
solar design. They will rely totally on satellite imagery and not 
check the design on the ground.  This is how you get solar proposed 
for shaded areas, where skylights and roof vents are located, or 
overhanging thin air.  This may be what is happening in the image 
you shared.


What is unique here is someone actually specified overhanging 
panels.  Looking more closely at the image, a roof outline is shown 
but it is not clear that the outline is actually situated over a 
building.  It almost looks like there is landscaped area inside the 
outline.


The solution of course is to get on out there, measure the roof and 
any obstructions and analyze the shading.  I use the Sun Seeker 
 
app for IOS for the shading analysis.


William

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com 

CA Lic. 773985

*From:*RE-wrenches 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
] *On Behalf Of 
*Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches

*Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2024 8:47 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org 


*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array

**



**



**



**



Here is a larger snip of the situation.




Label says overhang from upper roof.

/Drake Chamberlin/

/Athens Electric LLC/

/Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810/

/NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional/

---

On 2024-01-12 07:29, Jason Szumlanski wrote:

Are you sure that's what you're looking at? To me, that looks
like there was an addition made to the house, and maybe it's a
multi-pitch roof. That lower part might be a covered
wrap-around porch.


Jason Szumlanski

Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956

On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 5:59 PM Drake Chamberlin via
RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote:

I was given a drawing, produced by a very large solar
company, showing the array cantilevered over the edge of
the roof by several feet.



Notice how the array hangs out over the lawn for several
feet. Is there anyway that this is a legitimate way to
mount modules?

Thanks,

Drake

/Drake Chamberlin/

/Athens Electric LLC/

/Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810/

/NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional/

-- 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array

[Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches]

How do you deal with the rain gutters? 

Drake Chamberlin 

Media & Communication Action Project 


https://m-cap.org/

---

On 2024-02-08 16:46, Sky Sims via RE-wrenches wrote:

I've designed and installed several thousand cantilevered arrays over the last three decades and never had a single issue. Unfortunately, code changes have taken a turn for the worse in most jurisdictions and oftentimes disallow cantilevering.  

Sky Sims 
Https://EcologicalSystems.org 
732-462-3858 


On Jan 19, 2024, at 3:09 PM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


I've done a fair amount of roof mounted solar structural compliance, and I would say that the cantilevered design looks like a disaster waiting to happen. You could not use conventional solar racking products.  Chris 

On 1/13/2024 12:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: 

Drake 

My earlier reply may have been a bit facetious.  What I meant by it was that big-box solar contractors can be lazy when it comes to solar design.  They will rely totally on satellite imagery and not check the design on the ground.  This is how you get solar proposed for shaded areas, where skylights and roof vents are located, or overhanging thin air.  This may be what is happening in the image you shared.  

What is unique here is someone actually specified overhanging panels.  Looking more closely at the image, a roof outline is shown but it is not clear that the outline is actually situated over a building.  It almost looks like there is landscaped area inside the outline. 

The solution of course is to get on out there, measure the roof and any obstructions and analyze the shading.  I use the Sun Seeker [1] app for IOS for the shading analysis. 

William 

Miller Solar 

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 

805-438-5600 

www.millersolar.com [2] 

CA Lic. 773985 


From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2024 8:47 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Cc: drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array 

Here is a larger snip of the situation. 

 

Label says overhang from upper roof. 

_Drake Chamberlin_ 

_Athens Electric LLC_ 

_Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ 

_NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ 


---

On 2024-01-12 07:29, Jason Szumlanski wrote: 

Are you sure that's what you're looking at? To me, that looks like there was an addition made to the house, and maybe it's a multi-pitch roof. That lower part might be a covered wrap-around porch. 

Jason Szumlanski 


Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 

On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 5:59 PM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches  wrote: 

I was given a drawing, produced by a very large solar company, showing the array cantilevered over the edge of the roof by several feet. 

 

Notice how the array hangs out over the lawn for several feet. Is there anyway that this is a legitimate way to mount modules? 

Thanks, 

Drake 

_Drake Chamberlin_ 

_Athens Electric LLC_ 

_Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ 

_NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ 


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ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
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   401-466-8978
 


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