Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

2024-02-16 Thread Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches
Howie,

The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same manufacturer,
LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make sense.  I can’t speak for
EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed from simply white labeling
this unit to doing a significant amount of programming and additional
integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring platform.

Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX line
was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed paths with
that has called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and want it cheaper
because they watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks free
air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off completely, and am interested
in their PowerPro battery. But with the ebb and flow of battery
manufacturers, I wouldn’t be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I
feel differently about Fortress Power and although they have been a little
overactive in the inverter market, I do believe that they are well
intentioned and that their products and business are solid.

There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree to
disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and cell
failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid
applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in strictly
off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary firmware
updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault Max), but I’m
not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we came back from
vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15 volts”. I don’t like
those phone calls. I also don't like holes in my pants and shirts or calls
that CO monitors are alarming because of dead vent fans. I’m not dying on
the hill of LFP, but I will say that I am firmly in support of the
measurable improvements they have made for my customers. Paired with remote
monitoring, the truck rolls a lot less.

Kindly,

Chris






On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in general
> is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings may not
> be important to various DIY folks of varying levels of "git-er-done," but
> listings are critical for my business. Some products they sell are Listed
> per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently
> contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and
> did not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid
> client had already purchased an entire rack of them before consulting with
> me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk recommending or installing
> a system that would fail inspection. Here in Colorado they often even cross
> check the altitude ratings on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I
> like so much, limit on your spec sheet is 2000m altitude)
>
> Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc etc on the
> EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing certificate that they said
> should be sufficient, and it disturbed me that they did not seem to
> understand that UL 9540A is NOT a listing - it's a fire-resistance test
> that an ESS manufacturer can use as a document to help obtain their actual
> UL9540 listing, and also gain exemptions to spacing and other
> requirementsbut from my understanding it's NOT an actual UL or NRTL
> listing to UL 9540. When I inquired about that, Signature Solar stopped
> communicating with me.
>
> I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing vs. 9540A testing is
> correct, but I would appreciate any input before again gently confronting
> both AHJs and manufacturers.
>
> Dan Fink
> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
> NABCEP PV Associate
> d anbo...@gmail.com
> 970-672-4342
>
>>
>>
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[RE-wrenches] Tigo RSS Off Grid

2024-02-16 Thread Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches
Has anyone successfully used a MidNite Classic CC to power a Tigo Rapid 
Shutdown Transmitter in an off grid setting ?  Specifically using the 12v Aux 
output to keep the PV circuits alive instead of relying on the inverter AC 
output to do this.   

Think of this scenario.  Batteries reach LBCO, inverter shuts OFF, no PV to re 
charge back to LBCI, no generator backup to recharge batteries. 


Jeremy Rodriguez 
Solar Installation / Design
All Solar, Inc.
1453 M St. 
Penrose Colorado 81240

Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

2024-02-16 Thread Dan Fink via RE-wrenches
The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in general
is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings may not
be important to various DIY folks of varying levels of "git-er-done," but
listings are critical for my business. Some products they sell are Listed
per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently
contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and
did not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid
client had already purchased an entire rack of them before consulting with
me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk recommending or installing
a system that would fail inspection. Here in Colorado they often even cross
check the altitude ratings on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I
like so much, limit on your spec sheet is 2000m altitude)

Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc etc on the
EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing certificate that they said
should be sufficient, and it disturbed me that they did not seem to
understand that UL 9540A is NOT a listing - it's a fire-resistance test
that an ESS manufacturer can use as a document to help obtain their actual
UL9540 listing, and also gain exemptions to spacing and other
requirementsbut from my understanding it's NOT an actual UL or NRTL
listing to UL 9540. When I inquired about that, Signature Solar stopped
communicating with me.

I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing vs. 9540A testing is
correct, but I would appreciate any input before again gently confronting
both AHJs and manufacturers.

Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
NABCEP PV Associate
d anbo...@gmail.com
970-672-4342

>
>
>
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[RE-wrenches] Soligent outside request for info

2024-02-16 Thread Michael Welch via RE-wrenches


Hi Wrenches. I received the following from Bruce Roush, who is not on the
list. If you can help him, please contact him directly, off-list. Of
course, if something is important to share with other Wrenches, it's fine
to do it on-list.
Hi Michael-
I am trying to get in contact with someone familiar with Magnum &
Dimensions Inverters. I am having a hard time getting support and parts
through my Purchasing Dept at Soligent. It seem Sensata has outsourced
everything and getting in touch with a technically competent employee is
not possible.
Is there any way you could post a request on the list for an engineer or
technician familiar with the product lines to get in contact with
me?
Bruce Roush (Soligent) 707-529-1456
bruce.ro...@soligent.net




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Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

2024-02-16 Thread Kirk Bailey via RE-wrenches
Dave,

I took a quick look at the Discover AES battery specifications you
linked to and didn't find an entry for how much power the BMS uses
when the battery is turned ON, but doing nothing?  In my experience
the Fortress eFlex BMS uses on the order of 12-15 W, and it would be
interesting to know how the AES compares.  The absence of a BMS is a
lead acid advantage for some remote applications.

Thanks,

Kirk Bailey
www.abundantsolar.com

On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 3:12 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
RE-wrenches  wrote:
>
> Howie, I think you should also look again at the Discover rack mount system 
> in the link below. Nice 75 year old company that made it's name on Locomotive 
> batteries. Their prices are way down around 14 K for 30Kwh with heaters. If 
> you have not looked at Lynk2 their gateway closed loop into SMA, Schneider, 
> Solark, Morningstar and a few others you should.
>
> The only problems I have with Schneider are pretty easy and get resolved 
> because I only use them and take all of the training. Conext Insight is a 
> home run for my clients. Schneider also hired me to test their first closed 
> loop system with LG back in 2017 and it still is working fine.
>
> https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount
>
>
>
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
>   https://offgridsolar1.com/
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
>
>
> On 2024-02-16 2:02 pm, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer 
> oriented support department that we could expect better service from them. We 
> had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months. Lots and 
> lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a BMS or 
> replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are going to 
> remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for them. Maybe 
> donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover pairings in closed 
> loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, 
> despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but 
> we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, 
> there have been some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for 
> offgrid. I just had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro 
> and he said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank 
> and then ten years would pass before hearing from the client when it was time 
> for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over 
> the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment quality and then the 
> switch to Li are costing us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for 
> our clients. Rant Over
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and 
> batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away from 
> EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested last 
> June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not real 
> serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+ Boston 
> this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter is, for 
> all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both physical layout 
> as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience with the Envy 
> (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to compare it to the 
> Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet, except that the font on 
> the screen is quite small and the opening screen is not as intuitive as the 
> Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing myself more to the Envy 
> (and/or the EG4).
>
> My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 inverters 
> installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take on their 
> functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of support? Also, 
> what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI batteries? I'm not 
> unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress eVault Max battery, but 
> there are some attractive things about the Envy and potentially the EG4 18k, 
> and the price point and seemingly smart configuration of the EG4 LLI 
> batteries are certainly eye-catching.
>
> I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and 
> inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the mismatching 
> firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues between the 2 
> components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units (i.e. Sonen, 
> Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile at the moment. 
> If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it with a different 
> brand without having to replace th

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

2024-02-16 Thread Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches
Howie, I think you should also look again at the Discover rack mount 
system in the link below. Nice 75 year old company that made it's name 
on Locomotive batteries. Their prices are way down around 14 K for 30Kwh 
with heaters. If you have not looked at Lynk2 their gateway closed loop 
into SMA, Schneider, Solark, Morningstar and a few others you should.


The only problems I have with Schneider are pretty easy and get resolved 
because I only use them and take all of the training. Conext Insight is 
a home run for my clients. Schneider also hired me to test their first 
closed loop system with LG back in 2017 and it still is working fine.


https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
   [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2]  [1]
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2024-02-16 2:02 pm, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:

We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their 
dealer oriented support department that we could expect better service 
from them. We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a 
few months. Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still 
don't have a BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with 
them. I think we are going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's 
and find some use for them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with 
Schneider/Discover pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with 
Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to 
the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks 
technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been 
some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just 
had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro and he 
said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank 
and then ten years would pass before hearing from the client when it 
was time for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with 
systems over the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment 
quality and then the switch to Li are costing us too much money and 
causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over


On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:



Hi All,

I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and 
batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away 
from EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar 
suggested last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY 
market and not real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. 
However, I was at RE+ Boston this week and was quite surprised to see 
that the EG4 18k inverter is, for all I could tell, identical to the 
Fortress Envy 12k, in both physical layout as well as menu structure. 
I have very limited experience with the Envy (having just installed my 
1st one last week, in order to compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't 
have any thoughts about it yet, except that the font on the screen is 
quite small and the opening screen is not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, 
but that might just take familiarizing myself more to the Envy (and/or 
the EG4).


My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 
inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current 
take on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality 
of support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the 
EG4 LLI batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the 
Fortress eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things 
about the Envy and potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and 
seemingly smart configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly 
eye-catching.


I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and 
inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the 
mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues 
between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated 
units (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is 
so volatile at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option 
to replace it with a different brand without having to replace the 
other component as well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut 
down the problems, but it certainly will help in the troubleshooting 
process by hopefully having less of the "not my problem" or "we 
haven't seen that problem" responses from tech support.


I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so 
I'm hoping to gain some experienced insight.


Thanks,

Howie Michaelson

Sun Catcher ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

2024-02-16 Thread Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches
We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer
oriented support department that we could expect better service from them.
We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months.
Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don’t have a
BMS or replacement battery. It’s been a shit show with them. I think we are
going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS’s and find some use for
them. Maybe donate them. We’ve only had luck with Schneider/Discover
pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really
worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely
it’s a Sol-Ark issue, but we’ve reached Sol-Arks technical expertise
limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are
causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this
morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used
to be, we’d install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass
before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes
fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first
with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing
us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over

On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and
> batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away from
> EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested
> last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not
> real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+
> Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter
> is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both
> physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience
> with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to
> compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet,
> except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is
> not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing
> myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4).
>
> My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4
> inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take
> on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of
> support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI
> batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress
> eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about the Envy and
> potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly smart
> configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching.
>
> I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and
> inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the
> mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues
> between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units
> (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile
> at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it
> with a different brand without having to replace the other component as
> well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut down the problems, but it
> certainly will help in the troubleshooting process by hopefully having less
> of the "not my problem" or "we haven't seen that problem" responses from
> tech support.
>
> I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so I'm
> hoping to gain some experienced insight.
>
> Thanks,
> Howie Michaelson
> Sun Catcher
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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> --

Michael Morningstar


Morningstar Electric

PO Box 1494

Mount Shasta, CA 96067

530-921-0560

mjmornings...@gmail.com
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[RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

2024-02-16 Thread Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches
Hi All,

I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and
batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away from
EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested
last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not
real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+
Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter
is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both
physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience
with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to
compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet,
except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is
not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing
myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4).

My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 inverters
installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take on their
functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of support? Also,
what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI batteries? I'm
not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress eVault Max battery,
but there are some attractive things about the Envy and potentially the EG4
18k, and the price point and seemingly smart configuration of the EG4 LLI
batteries are certainly eye-catching.

I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and
inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the
mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues
between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units
(i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile
at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it
with a different brand without having to replace the other component as
well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut down the problems, but it
certainly will help in the troubleshooting process by hopefully having less
of the "not my problem" or "we haven't seen that problem" responses from
tech support.

I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so I'm
hoping to gain some experienced insight.

Thanks,
Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher
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