Re: [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections

[Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches]

I have carried E&O for much less. I think the recommendation to shop 
around is a good one.  NABECP I THINK, has some leads on firms for this.



Chris

On 3/10/2024 6:23 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote:

Hi All,

I have an insurance question and am very curious about how others deal 
with this, or don't. People will sometimes ask us to either do some 
design work for a system that we will not be installing, or to inspect 
a system and give my professional opinion about it. These are two 
separate work situations.


Recently, our insurance agent brought it to our attention that we 
should have insurance specifically for these kinds of work, and it is 
not something that is covered under our general liability 
(contractors) insurance.


Their recommendation for design work is to get "professional 
liability" (errors and omissions) insurance. Even though I may do one 
or two designs a year, we are looking at a roughly $12,000 policy. 
This would be meant to cover us if I make a mistake in the design that 
leads to some sort of failure or fire.


Their recommendation for the inspection type work is to get 
essentially a home inspector insurance policy for about $2400 per 
year. Again, this is something that we do a handful of times per year. 
This insurance is meant to cover us if I inspect a system and miss 
something that then ends up being a problem or a hazard.


With a brief conversation with a lawyer acquaintance, he thought that 
I may be fine with out these insurances. It sounded like I should have 
something in my service contracts that would essentially say something 
like "we will do this work to the best of our ability", and then if 
something does go wrong and the homeowner takes us to court, it is 
upon them to prove that we missed something that a reasonable person 
would have caught. My business manager does not like this because we 
could still have lots of lawyer fees and have to show up in court if 
we were to get sued, even if the problem was not caused by a lack of 
diligence on our part.


So my question to all of you is, do you have these insurances? Or do 
you just not do designs and inspections unless you are actually 
turning some wrenches on the site so that your general liability 
insurance covers your work? Or, is this a case of our insurance agent 
putting ungrounded fears in our head?


Thanks for your thoughts.
Cheers,
Dave

--
Logo 
Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
Owner | Sungineer Solar
p: he | him | his
a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
w: www.sungineersolar.com 
c: (607) 270-0370


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--
Christopher Warfel
          ENTECH Engineering Inc.
   PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
              401-477-5773
EE Logo 
BEGIN:VCARD
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N:Warfel;Christopher;;;
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections

[Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches]

Thanks for the recommendations to shop around. Seems like maybe this does
not need to be such a huge investment.

And Howie, I was also under the impression that the E&O would cover
inspections. We were just looking into an inspection policy instead of an
E&O because our agent said that it would be far less expensive and this all
came up around an inspection that I was planning on doing.

Cheers,
Dave

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 8:21 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I have carried E&O for much less. I think the recommendation to shop
> around is a good one.  NABECP I THINK, has some leads on firms for this.
>
>
> Chris
> On 3/10/2024 6:23 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I have an insurance question and am very curious about how others deal
> with this, or don't. People will sometimes ask us to either do some design
> work for a system that we will not be installing, or to inspect a system
> and give my professional opinion about it. These are two separate work
> situations.
>
> Recently, our insurance agent brought it to our attention that we should
> have insurance specifically for these kinds of work, and it is not
> something that is covered under our general liability (contractors)
> insurance.
>
> Their recommendation for design work is to get "professional liability"
> (errors and omissions) insurance. Even though I may do one or two designs a
> year, we are looking at a roughly $12,000 policy. This would be meant to
> cover us if I make a mistake in the design that leads to some sort of
> failure or fire.
>
> Their recommendation for the inspection type work is to get essentially a
> home inspector insurance policy for about $2400 per year. Again, this is
> something that we do a handful of times per year. This insurance is meant
> to cover us if I inspect a system and miss something that then ends up
> being a problem or a hazard.
>
> With a brief conversation with a lawyer acquaintance, he thought that I
> may be fine with out these insurances. It sounded like I should have
> something in my service contracts that would essentially say something like
> "we will do this work to the best of our ability", and then if something
> does go wrong and the homeowner takes us to court, it is upon them to prove
> that we missed something that a reasonable person would have caught. My
> business manager does not like this because we could still have lots of
> lawyer fees and have to show up in court if we were to get sued, even if
> the problem was not caused by a lack of diligence on our part.
>
> So my question to all of you is, do you have these insurances? Or do you
> just not do designs and inspections unless you are actually turning some
> wrenches on the site so that your general liability insurance covers your
> work? Or, is this a case of our insurance agent putting ungrounded fears in
> our head?
>
> Thanks for your thoughts.
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> --
> [image: Logo] 
> Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
> Owner | Sungineer Solar
> p: he | him | his
> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
> w: www.sungineersolar.com 
> c: (607) 270-0370
>
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> --
>Christopher Warfel
>   ENTECH Engineering Inc.
>PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
>   401-477-5773
> [image: EE Logo] 
>
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-- 
[image: Logo] 
Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
Owner | Sungineer Solar
p: he | him | his
a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
w: www.sungineersolar.com 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Clamping CTs Around Live Conductors - White Paper References and/or Anecdotal Information Requested

[Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches]

A quick note of thanks to the wide variety of responses I received last
week regarding my question about safely clamping CTs around live
conductors.  I genuinely appreciate the supportive responses.

Sincerely,
Sam

>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Evaluating battery health

[Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches]

Hi William,

Thinking out loud here, and I am guessing that there are reasons why not to
do this. But what about putting a voltage tester across each battery and
running a quick test?
I mention this because just a couple days ago, I went to check on a grid
tied battery backup system where capacity was much less than expected. It
is two strings of the Outback Northstar Blue+ batteries with a Radian
inverter. There should be about 9kwh of usable energy at 50% DOD. I was
able to get the data logs and found that on a recent grid outage the
inverter put out about 3kWh of energy before it shut off loads when the
batteries got to 48V. These batteries are only about 3.5 years old. Their
resting voltages were all pretty close (although, they were only resting -
not floating - for about 10 minutes)

But then I put a 100A battery tester across each battery. While most of
them dropped from about 13.8V to about 12.8V, I found one that dropped to
11V. There was also another that dropped to about 12.3. So, those two
batteries seem suspect to me. This is not a perfect method, but seemed to
quickly identify a couple batteries with issues.

Cheers,
Dave


On Sat, Mar 9, 2024 at 3:01 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> Evaluating the state of health of a battery array is one concept I
> struggle with.
>
>
>
> It pretty easy with flooded batteries—charge them up and check SG.  Sealed
> batteries are different.
>
>
>
> I do track “at-rest” voltages of discrete 2 volt VRLA cells.  This
> generally can’t be done for monoblock batteries.  I see trending towards
> greater deviation over time.  For example a UnigyII array I am currently
> working with is about 8 years old and has been worked hard.  Recent at-rest
> voltage readings show a deviation of 8%.  Four years ago it was 2%.  How
> much deviation is too much?
>
>
>
> The O&M manual for UnigyII batteries suggests making ohmic measurements.
> My research indicates this requires a rather expensive meter, such as a
> Hioki 3554.  I suppose it may be cheap of me to not invest in one of these
> meters and I am still considering doing so.  Have any of you worked with
> one of these meters?
>
>
>
> Here is another idea:  As we have discussed here, I am not a fan of
> battery monitor modules in a battery inverter BOS package.  I am an Outback
> integrator so the option is the FNDC.  The FNDC will generate SOC values
> which are often inaccurate and confuse my clients.  These inaccuracies
> occur when the programmed efficiency does not reflect an accurate value.
> The eff will change over time, with different ambient temperature and at
> different states of charge.  (Another problem with the FNDC is it has only
> 3 shunt inputs.  This can be difficult to implement if you have a large
> battery array and many inverters and charge controllers.)
>
>
>
> My idea is to turn this concept around.  Instead of calculating SOC one
> could use the ratio of AH in to AH out over time to determine the actual
> efficiency of a battery array.  Battery efficiency seems like as good an
> indicator of battery health as any other value.  It is easy to obtain data
> files for the FNDC in CSV format.  (I suspect this is kind of like what is
> done internally for the Sunny Island battery health reading.)
>
>
>
> Have any of you pondered these questions?  I am interested in your
> thoughts.
>
>
>
> TIA.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
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-- 
[image: Logo] 
Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
Owner | Sungineer Solar
p: he | him | his
a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
w: www.sungineersolar.com 
c: (607) 270-0370
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections

[Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches]

With General coverage I have been told if there is a issue with an installation 
& we did not install issues would be covered but if we install it they do not 
insure our work..
If we sub it out it was/is covered.

___
Dana Orzel  c- 2087217003   e - d...@solarwork.com

--- Begin Message ---
According to my agent, general liability does not cover design problems, 
whether we wrench it or not.  That is what an Errors and Omissions policy would 
cover, and what a previous agent mentioned to me in passing after selling me 
general liability for 10 years! They could offer me an E&O policy for several 
thousands of dollars, so I shopped it around and found coverage for a fraction 
of that cost, from a reputable company.  I have not considered an inspection 
insurance policy, mostly because my agent inferred that that type of work would 
be covered under an E & O policy as well, but I've never asked that question 
directly. So, something to add to my list for Monday...
Howie
Sun Catcher

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, 6:23 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Hi All,

I have an insurance question and am very curious about how others deal with 
this, or don't. People will sometimes ask us to either do some design work for 
a system that we will not be installing, or to inspect a system and give my 
professional opinion about it. These are two separate work situations.

Recently, our insurance agent brought it to our attention that we should have 
insurance specifically for these kinds of work, and it is not something that is 
covered under our general liability (contractors) insurance.

Their recommendation for design work is to get "professional liability" (errors 
and omissions) insurance. Even though I may do one or two designs a year, we 
are looking at a roughly $12,000 policy. This would be meant to cover us if I 
make a mistake in the design that leads to some sort of failure or fire.

Their recommendation for the inspection type work is to get essentially a home 
inspector insurance policy for about $2400 per year. Again, this is something 
that we do a handful of times per year. This insurance is meant to cover us if 
I inspect a system and miss something that then ends up being a problem or a 
hazard.

With a brief conversation with a lawyer acquaintance, he thought that I may be 
fine with out these insurances. It sounded like I should have something in my 
service contracts that would essentially say something like "we will do this 
work to the best of our ability", and then if something does go wrong and the 
homeowner takes us to court, it is upon them to prove that we missed something 
that a reasonable person would have caught. My business manager does not like 
this because we could still have lots of lawyer fees and have to show up in 
court if we were to get sued, even if the problem was not caused by a lack of 
diligence on our part.

So my question to all of you is, do you have these insurances? Or do you just 
not do designs and inspections unless you are actually turning some wrenches on 
the site so that your general liability insurance covers your work? Or, is this 
a case of our insurance agent putting ungrounded fears in our head?

Thanks for your thoughts.
Cheers,
Dave

--
[Logo]
Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
Owner | Sungineer Solar
p: he | him | his
a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
w: www.sungineersolar.com
c: (607) 270-0370
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List sponsored 

Re: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search

[Kent via RE-wrenches]

Ray,

Thanks for the clarification on the photo. Years ago Solar World stopped 
making modules with the metal strip on the frame for back mounting; 
folks complained and they brought back the provision for back mounting. 
But as you say the frames are very thin these days and the module area 
is huge - especially compared to the 75 watt modules I started with.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 3/10/2024 1:14 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote:


That's just distortion in the image, from when I zoomed and cropped 
it.  Its module frame direct to the 2" angle aluminum support rail. 
Nothing in between.  High winds ripped two other modules completely 
off the rack leaving all the hardware still attached with a bit of 
module frame still under the washers .


This is on a mountain top in Wyoming.   Believe me, when I tell you 
that bottom mounting is no longer a safe method with today's big 
modules, at least not in high wind situations (> 90 mph).  I measured 
the thickness of the module frame, and its about 1/2 the thickness of 
an old Siemens SP75 that I compared it to.  These were Solar World 
modules, but I've noticed most modules today have significantly less 
robust frames than the old days.


More surface area to catch the wind + thinner metal = failure at high 
enough wind speed.


BTW, the rack is a DPW high wind model, both the rack and the 4" pole 
didn't budge at all, just the modules themselves.  I've had a second 
system, same configuration have similar damage in a wind storm just 
last year.  Its just on the top modules, not all of them.  I have 
quite a few MT Solar racks with the top down mounting, and no 
losses.   I've been  suspicious of top down module racking; and I was 
quite satisfied with actual bolts and hardware to hold modules in 
place.  But its just not true anymore.    I added 3/4" angle stainless 
steel to reinforce the attachments on the top modules.



Ray Walters

On 3/9/2024 12:44 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote:


Ray,

It appears that there is something between the module frame and rail 
that may have introduced the frame crack. Perhaps as it was 
tightened, and not due to the wind. What is the light material that 
looks like it is sandwiched between the module and rail?


Kent Osterberg

On 3/8/2024 4:23 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote:


Here's another mount at the edge of failure, from the same system. 
Hardware is tight.  Like many, I had lots of love for good ol' 
fashion bottom mounting vs top mount, until this happened about 5 
years ago.


This is how we learn.


On 3/8/2024 5:15 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote:


I've had several modules pull off of bottom mount racking in high 
winds, but never top mount racking.  Newer modules have much 
thinner frames, but are much more surface area than the old days.



Ray Walters
Remote Solar


On 3/8/2024 3:50 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote:
and for the life of me I don't understand the logic of of a top 
mount clamp on a TPM.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Dave:



I have thought about this dilemma pretty carefully in the past.  I have
come up with a line of logic that works for me.  I will try to keep the
explanation short but there is some nuance to it that might take some
‘splaning.



As a licensed electrical contractor it is my responsibility to design the
systems I install, with certain exceptions.  I don’t know if this is the
correct term, but I call it design/build.  My exposure is covered and my
requirements are met if I have a general liability policy and the required
bonding any contractor would.  Coverage for errors and omissions is not
required.



If the scope of the project is complicated beyond some level then the
services of a PE will be required and a wet-stamped plan may be needed, or
at least sensible to provide.  The client or the building department may
require this added service.



The level of complexity at which external, licensed design services are
needed is subjective.  Most electricians don’t need a PE to draw up a new
or replacement service or the details of configuring branch circuits, to
name a few examples.  The requirements can be deduced from the particulars
of the project and the language of the NEC.  If the contractor is
inexperienced, then more design help is needed.  If the contractor is more
experienced, then more complex projects can be designed in-house.  I decide
for myself if I am qualified to do the design work, or not.



Before a bid is prepared some level of design needs to be accomplished in
order to define the scope of the project, specify the materials and predict
the labor required.  My preference is to design the heck out of any job so
I don’t get any unpleasant, expensive surprises once the project
commences.  I don’t do this level of design work for free.  There is always
a work order for design time.



However I do not always get the contract to perform the physical work.  The
bid price may be too high or the project may not go forward for any number
of reasons.



Unless there is some proprietary information in the design, once the
customer pays my design fee the customer owns that design and is entitled
to deliverables in the form of drawings, calculations, bill of materials,
etc.  If I hand over those documents but do not install the work, I am
essentially working design only, not design/build.  However because the
intent was to design a project I would build, I don’t worry about that
detail.  I assume no liability for any part of the project unless I am
hired to build it.  I have no control over what the client does with the
design information once I turn it over.



Under this logic I am pretty comfortable providing occasional design-only
services as long as I could demonstrate, if asked, that I was operating in
good faith on a design/build project.  This intent can be satisfied by the
language of the work order, specifying the client will provide an
opportunity for you to bid on the work in hopes of winning the contract.



This approach might work for you or at least give you something to think
about.  Not everyone is willing to take the same risks.  Sorry about all of
the words.  I could not explain this approach any more concisely.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Sunday, March 10, 2024 3:23 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Dave Tedeyan
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections



Hi All,



I have an insurance question and am very curious about how others deal with
this, or don't. People will sometimes ask us to either do some design work
for a system that we will not be installing, or to inspect a system and
give my professional opinion about it. These are two separate work
situations.



Recently, our insurance agent brought it to our attention that we should
have insurance specifically for these kinds of work, and it is not
something that is covered under our general liability (contractors)
insurance.



Their recommendation for design work is to get "professional liability"
(errors and omissions) insurance. Even though I may do one or two designs a
year, we are looking at a roughly $12,000 policy. This would be meant to
cover us if I make a mistake in the design that leads to some sort of
failure or fire.



Their recommendation for the inspection type work is to get essentially a
home inspector insurance policy for about $2400 per year. Again, this is
something that we do a handful of times per year. This insurance is meant
to cover us if I inspect a system and miss something that then ends up
being a problem or a hazard.



With a brief conversation with a lawyer acquaintance, he thought that I may
be fine with out these insurances. It sounded like I should have something
in my service contracts that would essentially say something like "we will
do this work 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections

[Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches]

William, et al,
As always, a thorough explanation of your considered opinion. Thanks.
Food for thought and a question to others who have more insight to the
world of insurance and liability than I:
My understanding of General Liability insurance, is that it is intended to
cover mistakes in the physical work process - that is things like frying a
piece of electronics due to faulty installation practices, dropping a
hammer onto the pet cat, leaving an exposed conductor that one of the
toddlers in the house stumbles upon and decides to see how it tastes,
hanging the inverter on a sheetrock wall using toggle anchors, or one of a
million mistakes possible during or after the installation.  On the other
hand, if I design an 10kW inverter to backfeed through an outlet (or more
likely a conductor that inadvertently undersized for the distance it is
running), or I design something that is compliant with the 2020 code cycle,
but unbeknownst to me the jurisdiction I am working in adopted 2023 last
week, and the design later is found at fault in a fire that burned the
house down, General Liability does not cover me.  That is when an E&O
policy would come into play and cover my ass. THis is what a previous
insurance agent informed me of after being insured through them for 15
years without an E&O policy (thank you very much). If this is true, then it
doesn't seem like it matters whether you or someone else does the work, if
it is your design that is being used. Without an E&O policy, you
potentially own any design errors for the life of the system. I wasn't sure
if you were saying that you are comfortable taking on that liability
because you have enough faith in your design work, or if your impression is
that if you do the installation work, a general liability policy will cover
any problems.  I would understand the former (although I don't think I
would be willing to accept that liability unless perhaps the cost of the
policy was prohibitively expensive). If my understanding of these policies
is not accurate, then I would love to hear a correct interpretation of what
they do and don't cover.

Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher


On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 8:02 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Dave:
>
>
>
> I have thought about this dilemma pretty carefully in the past.  I have
> come up with a line of logic that works for me.  I will try to keep the
> explanation short but there is some nuance to it that might take some
> ‘splaning.
>
>
>
> As a licensed electrical contractor it is my responsibility to design the
> systems I install, with certain exceptions.  I don’t know if this is the
> correct term, but I call it design/build.  My exposure is covered and my
> requirements are met if I have a general liability policy and the required
> bonding any contractor would.  Coverage for errors and omissions is not
> required.
>
>
>
> If the scope of the project is complicated beyond some level then the
> services of a PE will be required and a wet-stamped plan may be needed, or
> at least sensible to provide.  The client or the building department may
> require this added service.
>
>
>
> The level of complexity at which external, licensed design services are
> needed is subjective.  Most electricians don’t need a PE to draw up a new
> or replacement service or the details of configuring branch circuits, to
> name a few examples.  The requirements can be deduced from the particulars
> of the project and the language of the NEC.  If the contractor is
> inexperienced, then more design help is needed.  If the contractor is more
> experienced, then more complex projects can be designed in-house.  I decide
> for myself if I am qualified to do the design work, or not.
>
>
>
> Before a bid is prepared some level of design needs to be accomplished in
> order to define the scope of the project, specify the materials and predict
> the labor required.  My preference is to design the heck out of any job so
> I don’t get any unpleasant, expensive surprises once the project
> commences.  I don’t do this level of design work for free.  There is always
> a work order for design time.
>
>
>
> However I do not always get the contract to perform the physical work.
> The bid price may be too high or the project may not go forward for any
> number of reasons.
>
>
>
> Unless there is some proprietary information in the design, once the
> customer pays my design fee the customer owns that design and is entitled
> to deliverables in the form of drawings, calculations, bill of materials,
> etc.  If I hand over those documents but do not install the work, I am
> essentially working design only, not design/build.  However because the
> intent was to design a project I would build, I don’t worry about that
> detail.  I assume no liability for any part of the project unless I am
> hired to build it.  I have no control over what the client does with the
> design information once I turn it over.
>
>
>
> Under this l

Re: [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

Something else to consider for us small operators:  LLC and 
incorporation offer some protection as well.  If your company is sued, 
and then declares bankruptcy, there's not going to be much for the other 
party's attorneys to go after.  I've heard it described by my attorney, 
that most attorneys won't even take the case when they hear the 
defendant is uninsured.  When you are insured, they will sue for exactly 
what the insurance covers + your liquid assets.  They don't want your 
old truck and tools.


Everything we do, (especially driving) has risk.  We have to decide on a 
job per job basis whether that risk is acceptable for the amount of 
money we're charging.  Bigger, more complicated jobs = more risk, 
therefore more insurance is probably warranted.  Some projects require 
so much insurance that you can't even do the job.  I worked on some 
pipeline projects that increased the required insurance to $20 million 
at a cost of almost $100k/ year.  We don't do that work anymore.


This is also why I don't have a bunch of kids running around in trucks 
making mistakes every day; too much liability.  I closely supervise 
everything that my company takes responsibility for, and I sleep well at 
night with my standard contractor's liability insurance.


Remember, insurance agents primary goal is to sell more insurance.  Of 
course they want you to have an E&O policy, too.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 3/11/2024 7:41 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote:

William, et al,
As always, a thorough explanation of your considered opinion. Thanks.
Food for thought and a question to others who have more insight to the 
world of insurance and liability than I:
My understanding of General Liability insurance, is that it is 
intended to cover mistakes in the physical work process - that is 
things like frying a piece of electronics due to faulty installation 
practices, dropping a hammer onto the pet cat, leaving an exposed 
conductor that one of the toddlers in the house stumbles upon and 
decides to see how it tastes, hanging the inverter on a sheetrock wall 
using toggle anchors, or one of a million mistakes possible during or 
after the installation. On the other hand, if I design an 10kW 
inverter to backfeed through an outlet (or more likely a conductor 
that inadvertently undersized for the distance it is running), or I 
design something that is compliant with the 2020 code cycle, but 
unbeknownst to me the jurisdiction I am working in adopted 2023 last 
week, and the design later is found at fault in a fire that burned the 
house down, General Liability does not cover me.  That is when an E&O 
policy would come into play and cover my ass. THis is what a previous 
insurance agent informed me of after being insured through them for 15 
years without an E&O policy (thank you very much). If this is true, 
then it doesn't seem like it matters whether you or someone else does 
the work, if it is your design that is being used. Without an E&O 
policy, you potentially own any design errors for the life of the 
system. I wasn't sure if you were saying that you are comfortable 
taking on that liability because you have enough faith in your design 
work, or if your impression is that if you do the installation work, a 
general liability policy will cover any problems.  I would understand 
the former (although I don't think I would be willing to accept that 
liability unless perhaps the cost of the policy was prohibitively 
expensive). If my understanding of these policies is not accurate, 
then I would love to hear a correct interpretation of what they do and 
don't cover.


Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher


On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 8:02 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Dave:

I have thought about this dilemma pretty carefully in the past.  I
have come up with a line of logic that works for me.  I will try
to keep the explanation short but there is some nuance to it that
might take some ‘splaning.

As a licensed electrical contractor it is my responsibility to
design the systems I install, with certain exceptions.  I don’t
know if this is the correct term, but I call it design/build.  My
exposure is covered and my requirements are met if I have a
general liability policy and the required bonding any contractor
would.  Coverage for errors and omissions is not required.

If the scope of the project is complicated beyond some level then
the services of a PE will be required and a wet-stamped plan may
be needed, or at least sensible to provide.  The client or the
building department may require this added service.

The level of complexity at which external, licensed design
services are needed is subjective.  Most electricians don’t need a
PE to draw up a new or replacement service or the details of
configuring branch circuits, to name a few examples.  The
requirements can be deduced from the particulars of the project
and the