[RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V
system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each
inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I
intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port
Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug
only panelboard.

My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the
generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid
input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full
pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the
input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters
can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds
the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus
62.5A  of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load
OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A.

Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in
total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a
single unit if the rest fail.

Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of
generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important
because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if
that is the case.

I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator
assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches]

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that most inverter/chargers
are either being an inverter or a charger at any given time, but not both.
So, once the inverter sees the AC voltage from the generator, then it will
switch to being a charger and use the generator AC power to charge the
batteries and run the loads. So it will never be passing through generator
power and supplying power from the batteries/PV at the same time. I would
think that with a call to Sol-Ark you should be able to verify this for
sure, unless someone else here can verify.

But also, I would size the conductors for 1.25 * available amps, since it
could be continuous. So you might be able to get away with 62.5 * 4 * 1.25
= 313A rated conductors.

Cheers,
Dave

On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 5:28 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V
> system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each
> inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I
> intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port
> Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug
> only panelboard.
>
> My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the
> generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid
> input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full
> pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the
> input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters
> can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds
> the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus
> 62.5A  of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load
> OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A.
>
> Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in
> total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a
> single unit if the rest fail.
>
> Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of
> generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important
> because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if
> that is the case.
>
> I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator
> assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
>
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-- 
[image: Logo] 
Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
Owner | Sungineer Solar
p: he | him | his
a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
w: www.sungineersolar.com 
c: (607) 270-0370
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four
inverters together.  If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed
into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without
over-current protection.  Have you considered landing the output of each
inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output
load-center?



In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the inverters?
Are these hard-wired paralleled as well?  You might consider having the
generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately sized breaker
to feed each inverter.  You protect the conductors as required and you can
isolate any inverter for service



What size should these breaker be?  If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC,
upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size
you get 80 amps.  If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc
you require #4 copper at 75°C.  Each inverter and all of the conductors are
protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined
amperage at your output.  There should be no need to run 400 amp wire.



BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding
mechanical interlock.  You run an appropriately sized feeder between the
generator fed and inverter fed panels.  The bypass breaker in the
inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers.  The
installation might look like this
.
This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A,
double-throw safety switch.  (A home-made interlock may not be listed but
what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on?  The inverters
will detect backfeed and shut down.  No harm will come of it.)



Hope this helps.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V
system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each
inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I
intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port
Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug
only panelboard.



My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the
generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid
input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full
pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the
input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters
can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds
the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus
62.5A  of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load
OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A.



Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in
total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a
single unit if the rest fail.



Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of
generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important
because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if
that is the case.



I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator
assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly.



Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

Hi Dave,

XW inverters do a decent job of explaining generator support mode where
small generators can be supplemented by inverter power to start up large
loads. I believe several other brands can do this, and I believe Sol-Ark is
one of them. But front line customer service wasn't really up to speed when
I contacted them recently. I can't say for certain if it is supported by
Sol-Ark, but it clearly is by Schneider and has always been partnof the XW
family as far as I recall.

As for the continuous ampacity adjustment, I'm not sure if that is
necessary. That would be more a function of the load rather than the
supply. We don't upside 200A utility service conductors that way (in fact,
there is an allowance for downsizing).

Jason



On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:08 PM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:

> I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that most inverter/chargers
> are either being an inverter or a charger at any given time, but not both.
> So, once the inverter sees the AC voltage from the generator, then it will
> switch to being a charger and use the generator AC power to charge the
> batteries and run the loads. So it will never be passing through generator
> power and supplying power from the batteries/PV at the same time. I would
> think that with a call to Sol-Ark you should be able to verify this for
> sure, unless someone else here can verify.
>
> But also, I would size the conductors for 1.25 * available amps, since it
> could be continuous. So you might be able to get away with 62.5 * 4 * 1.25
> = 313A rated conductors.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 5:28 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V
>> system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each
>> inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I
>> intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port
>> Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug
>> only panelboard.
>>
>> My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the
>> generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid
>> input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full
>> pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the
>> input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters
>> can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds
>> the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus
>> 62.5A  of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load
>> OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A.
>>
>> Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator
>> in total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a
>> single unit if the rest fail.
>>
>> Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of
>> generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important
>> because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if
>> that is the case.
>>
>> I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator
>> assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>
>
> --
> [image: Logo] 
> Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
> Owner | Sungineer Solar
> p: he | him | his
> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
> w: www.sungineersolar.com 
> c: (607) 270-0370
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

#4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as each
inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would be
spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so at a
minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my opinion.
The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter can
supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to the
inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output conductors
to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out definitively if
generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s.

As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes
problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum
or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A
panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that
all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a
practical way to make that happen.

The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need 4
x 150A backfed breakers, all fastened to the bus. Is there a cost effective
way to accomplish this?

Serviceability and bypass are obvious desires, but at what cost? If an
inverter needs to be taken out of service, it's fairly easy to remove the
supply and load conductors. And this highlights my issue... What if three
of four inverters need to be removed from service? Then absolute 150A
generator power can flow through the remaining single inverter, meaning the
output conductors need to be sized accordingly.

Jason


On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Jason:
>
>
>
> I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four
> inverters together.  If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed
> into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without
> over-current protection.  Have you considered landing the output of each
> inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output
> load-center?
>
>
>
> In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the inverters?
> Are these hard-wired paralleled as well?  You might consider having the
> generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately sized breaker
> to feed each inverter.  You protect the conductors as required and you can
> isolate any inverter for service
>
>
>
> What size should these breaker be?  If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC,
> upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size
> you get 80 amps.  If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc
> you require #4 copper at 75°C.  Each inverter and all of the conductors are
> protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined
> amperage at your output.  There should be no need to run 400 amp wire.
>
>
>
> BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding
> mechanical interlock.  You run an appropriately sized feeder between the
> generator fed and inverter fed panels.  The bypass breaker in the
> inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers.  The
> installation might look like this
> .
> This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A,
> double-throw safety switch.  (A home-made interlock may not be listed but
> what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on?  The inverters
> will detect backfeed and shut down.  No harm will come of it.)
>
>
>
> Hope this helps.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>
>
>
> I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V
> system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each
> inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I
> intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port
> Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug
> only panelboard.
>
>
>
> My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the
> generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid
> input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full
> pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the
> input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters
> can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds
> the available input. That means the inverter would

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches]

Wrenches, Jason
I have always either with outback and with solark have always connected
each unit with a distribution panel with breakers regardless of what's in
the inverter package. This same goes for the gen set connections with
proper breakers so not to have to over size the wires.
I have connected to either the gen set input or the grid input both will
work and both can be used to charge the batteries.
Question l do alot of gen set integration and breakers on the genset may
not reflect its actual design output and l have seen multiple times
overloading the genset due to the incorrect math. Use a power factor of .8
of the gen set rating then 75% of that is safe continues operating load.
Now some may argue with this but when l take a 150 kW  genny for a 4 hr
load bank test that's the math that's used.

Your batteries should also be independently fuse or breaker protected
outside of the battery such as a midnite battery combiner breaker cabinet,
required for any more than two banks. I do this with FLA's blue planet and
fortress regardless of the internal breaker supplied.
Fun times

On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 2:27 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V
> system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each
> inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I
> intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port
> Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug
> only panelboard.
>
> My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the
> generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid
> input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full
> pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the
> input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters
> can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds
> the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus
> 62.5A  of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load
> OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A.
>
> Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in
> total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a
> single unit if the rest fail.
>
> Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of
> generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important
> because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if
> that is the case.
>
> I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator
> assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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> other:
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> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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>
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