Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

[Dan Fink via RE-wrenches]

John; I had quite a few Trace DR series in the field back in the day, but
only one left alive today, fortunately in my guest cabin and not at a
client's house. They had a pretty OK waveform for a modified square wave
inverter, but some modern appliances were just a no-go with a DR, including
some microwaves, LED lights, cordless tool chargers, fridges, and washers.
I also found them particularly sensitive to lightning damage, we had a
single strike that took out every DR within a 1/2 mile radius.
Good product at a nice price point for the era, but honestly if given a
choice I'd take a Trace U-series over a DR now. Fortunately we have better
waveform options now too!
Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
NABCEP PV Associate
d anbo...@gmail.com
970-672-4342

On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 8:50 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I have a new client wanting to upgrade an old system with DR inverter, 4
> golf cart batteries Trace C40 CC and two small PV panels. The system was
> definitely installed by a professional with breakers and switched and I am
> looking at the photo the customer emailed to me and other than upsizing the
> PV array and new batteries, there seems to be no reason to change the
> inverter which is very energy efficient. His loads are minimal with  a
> vacuum the only load to be
> added.  Another customer called about 18 years after I installed his DR
> system,  Seems that the inverter failed. He had replaced the batteries once
> or twice and no
> other issues.  Got there to check out the failure, I had voltage at the
> inverter DC connections. So I pushed the TINY little black start button and
> it fired right up.
> This system had been so reliable that he had forgotten that there was and
> on/off reset button. For now though, I'm sticking with Outback in spite of
> the FM100
> seeming to have hair trigger GFCI circuit  As with many of my clients
> off-grid second home with a view, access is sometimes difficult so I rely
> heavily on OpticRE
> to make sure their lights are on and to keep micro managing customers off
> my back when they call ask why the solar input is only 1200 watts when they
> have 7K of panels on a perfect sunny day. I look at optics and their
> batteries are full... DUH  I even have two Magnum systems (not my install)
> with FM60's with AUX Relay so I can use MATE3 & OpticsRE to check battery
> voltage, charging, setting charging perameters and start and stop the
> generator remotely.
>
> John
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

[John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches]

I have a new client wanting to upgrade an old system with DR inverter, 4
golf cart batteries Trace C40 CC and two small PV panels. The system was
definitely installed by a professional with breakers and switched and I am
looking at the photo the customer emailed to me and other than upsizing the
PV array and new batteries, there seems to be no reason to change the
inverter which is very energy efficient. His loads are minimal with  a
vacuum the only load to be
added.  Another customer called about 18 years after I installed his DR
system,  Seems that the inverter failed. He had replaced the batteries once
or twice and no
other issues.  Got there to check out the failure, I had voltage at the
inverter DC connections. So I pushed the TINY little black start button and
it fired right up.
This system had been so reliable that he had forgotten that there was and
on/off reset button. For now though, I'm sticking with Outback in spite of
the FM100
seeming to have hair trigger GFCI circuit  As with many of my clients
off-grid second home with a view, access is sometimes difficult so I rely
heavily on OpticRE
to make sure their lights are on and to keep micro managing customers off
my back when they call ask why the solar input is only 1200 watts when they
have 7K of panels on a perfect sunny day. I look at optics and their
batteries are full... DUH  I even have two Magnum systems (not my install)
with FM60's with AUX Relay so I can use MATE3 & OpticsRE to check battery
voltage, charging, setting charging perameters and start and stop the
generator remotely.

John

On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 5:39 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I’ve had no issues with qo over the years for 12v except if they get dirt
> in them from mud dobber wasps.
>
> Jay
>
> On Apr 26, 2024, at 9:05 AM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
> I agree with John also.  one of the better-performing off-grid houses I
> worked on used a 48 to 12-V Samlex converter. The 12-volt thick-walled
> refrigerator was about 4 amps at 12 volts. The lights, radio, and small TV
> drew very few amps each/  I also used an Outback 3648 inverter, which the
> homeowner turned on only. when needed (wash machine, etc.), I used SQ-D QO
> panel board in case the owner wanted to go to 120 volt AC future breaker
> panel. All lighting was Edison base lamps, and all wiring was NMB Romex.  I
> wired like a normal house except for a 120-v panel and 12-v panel I relay
> and momentary switch by appliance for easy turning on of AC inverter.
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:49 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> I agree with John.
>>
>> Most 12v fridges have small compressors. But I don’t know what they have.
>> Personally a major reason to go 120/ac is to get a normal refrigerator.
>>
>> But you can measure the surge/load  and then size the charger
>> accordingly.
>>
>> One feature of going charger is the lights are a lot brighter at night
>> and last longer because they are not at 15v during the day.
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>> On Apr 24, 2024, at 5:01 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Jason,
>>   I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V
>> VFX inverter,  He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very
>> fancy custom control board
>> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems.  We are adding a lot more
>> solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like
>> that idea.  We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my
>> house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a
>> large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in
>> place of the 12V inverter.  He complained that the existing inverter would
>> not handle all his current AC loads very well.  My own house is fully wired
>> for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been
>> considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System.
>> Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large
>> stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller
>> to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my
>> Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now.  For your
>> customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace
>> his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V
>> inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a
>> smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe
>> thats why I never seem to make money.!!
>>
>> John Blittersdorf
>> offgridvermont.com
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Large transformer losses

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Should be easy enough to look up on the manufacturer’s website.

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 3:54 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi all.
>
> Anyone know what the tare loss and efficiency is of a 75 kw transformer?
> And it would be run mostly at 1-10kw max.
>
> This one specifically.
> hammond SG3L0075PE
>
> I’m just curious about it. The situation is 240vac grid at the street,
> 600’ to the house 400 amps.
>
>
> Why 400 amps on a house with propane heat, cooking, water heater, dryer
> and no AC.
> I don’t know.
>
> Thanks
> Jay
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Large transformer losses

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

According to the nameplate 6% @ 170°cOn Apr 26, 2024, at 4:33 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches  wrote:Do you know the transformer impedance?On Fri, Apr 26, 2024, 5:54 PM Jay via RE-wrenches  wrote:Hi all. 

Anyone know what the tare loss and efficiency is of a 75 kw transformer?
And it would be run mostly at 1-10kw max. 

This one specifically. 
hammond SG3L0075PE

I’m just curious about it. The situation is 240vac grid at the street, 600’ to the house 400 amps. 


Why 400 amps on a house with propane heat, cooking, water heater, dryer and no AC. 
I don’t know. 

Thanks
Jay



___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org


___List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Large transformer losses

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Do you know the transformer impedance?

On Fri, Apr 26, 2024, 5:54 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi all.
>
> Anyone know what the tare loss and efficiency is of a 75 kw transformer?
> And it would be run mostly at 1-10kw max.
>
> This one specifically.
> hammond SG3L0075PE
>
> I’m just curious about it. The situation is 240vac grid at the street,
> 600’ to the house 400 amps.
>
>
> Why 400 amps on a house with propane heat, cooking, water heater, dryer
> and no AC.
> I don’t know.
>
> Thanks
> Jay
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Large transformer losses

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hi Jay I have gotten this type of information directly from Hammond, I
would think from transformer to House line loss should be considered.  From
my Experiance, people go to 400 amp services mostly for circuit count.  I
have measured a few transformers in past but I don't know where data is
now.

On Fri, Apr 26, 2024, 5:54 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi all.
>
> Anyone know what the tare loss and efficiency is of a 75 kw transformer?
> And it would be run mostly at 1-10kw max.
>
> This one specifically.
> hammond SG3L0075PE
>
> I’m just curious about it. The situation is 240vac grid at the street,
> 600’ to the house 400 amps.
>
>
> Why 400 amps on a house with propane heat, cooking, water heater, dryer
> and no AC.
> I don’t know.
>
> Thanks
> Jay
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] Large transformer losses

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi all. 

Anyone know what the tare loss and efficiency is of a 75 kw transformer?
And it would be run mostly at 1-10kw max. 

This one specifically. 
hammond SG3L0075PE

I’m just curious about it. The situation is 240vac grid at the street, 600’ to 
the house 400 amps. 


Why 400 amps on a house with propane heat, cooking, water heater, dryer and no 
AC. 
I don’t know. 

Thanks
Jay



___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

I’ve had no issues with qo over the years for 12v except if they get dirt in them from mud dobber wasps. JayOn Apr 26, 2024, at 9:05 AM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches  wrote:I agree with John also.  one of the better-performing off-grid houses I worked on used a 48 to 12-V Samlex converter. The 12-volt thick-walled refrigerator was about 4 amps at 12 volts. The lights, radio, and small TV drew very few amps each/  I also used an Outback 3648 inverter, which the homeowner turned on only. when needed (wash machine, etc.), I used SQ-D QO panel board in case the owner wanted to go to 120 volt AC future breaker panel. All lighting was Edison base lamps, and all wiring was NMB Romex.  I wired like a normal house except for a 120-v panel and 12-v panel I relay and momentary switch by appliance for easy turning on of AC inverter.   On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:49 AM Jay via RE-wrenches  wrote:I agree with John. Most 12v fridges have small compressors. But I don’t know what they have. Personally a major reason to go 120/ac is to get a normal refrigerator. But you can measure the surge/load  and then size the charger accordingly. One feature of going charger is the lights are a lot brighter at night and last longer because they are not at 15v during the day. JayOn Apr 24, 2024, at 5:01 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches  wrote:Jason,  I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V VFX inverter,  He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very fancy custom control boardoriginally set up to handle AC and DC systems.  We are adding a lot more solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like that idea.  We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in place of the 12V inverter.  He complained that the existing inverter would not handle all his current AC loads very well.  My own house is fully wired for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System. Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now.  For your customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe thats why I never seem to make money.!!John Blittersdorfoffgridvermont.comOn Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches  wrote:Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open, for sure.Jason SzumlanskiPrincipal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design GroupNABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches  wrote:

Not being helpful but I  walk away from these.  It will come back to you. 
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
  https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060


On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:


I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged through a Trace C40.
 
He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to double or triple his usable capacity.
 
For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if he has an inverter. 
 
He definitely wants LiPo batteries. 
 

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I agree with John also.  one of the better-performing off-grid houses I
worked on used a 48 to 12-V Samlex converter. The 12-volt thick-walled
refrigerator was about 4 amps at 12 volts. The lights, radio, and small TV
drew very few amps each/  I also used an Outback 3648 inverter, which the
homeowner turned on only. when needed (wash machine, etc.), I used SQ-D QO
panel board in case the owner wanted to go to 120 volt AC future breaker
panel. All lighting was Edison base lamps, and all wiring was NMB Romex.  I
wired like a normal house except for a 120-v panel and 12-v panel I relay
and momentary switch by appliance for easy turning on of AC inverter.

On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:49 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I agree with John.
>
> Most 12v fridges have small compressors. But I don’t know what they have.
> Personally a major reason to go 120/ac is to get a normal refrigerator.
>
> But you can measure the surge/load  and then size the charger accordingly.
>
> One feature of going charger is the lights are a lot brighter at night and
> last longer because they are not at 15v during the day.
>
> Jay
>
>
> On Apr 24, 2024, at 5:01 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
> Jason,
>   I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V
> VFX inverter,  He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very
> fancy custom control board
> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems.  We are adding a lot more
> solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like
> that idea.  We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my
> house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a
> large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in
> place of the 12V inverter.  He complained that the existing inverter would
> not handle all his current AC loads very well.  My own house is fully wired
> for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been
> considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System.
> Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large
> stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller
> to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my
> Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now.  For your
> customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace
> his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V
> inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a
> smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe
> thats why I never seem to make money.!!
>
> John Blittersdorf
> offgridvermont.com
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any
>> negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple
>> and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open,
>> for sure.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
>> RE-wrenches  wrote:
>>
>>> Not being helpful but I  walk away from these.  It will come back to you.
>>>
>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>>https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
>>>   
>>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>>> text 209 813 0060*
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>>
>>> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a
>>> cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting,
>>> fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run
>>> through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt
>>> Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged
>>> through a Trace C40.
>>>
>>> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM
>>> batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power
>>> for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that
>>> he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I
>>> would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to
>>> double or triple his usable capacity.
>>>
>>> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to
>>> eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to
>>> keeping his 12 volt distribution because 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid-Tied Radian Force Discharge

[Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches]

Maverick and Mac

I am using Flextime here so that we are only using Grid Zero mode from
2-6am, when there is no solar coming in. The rest of the time, the system
is in Grid tied mode so that we can take advantage of as much solar as
possible. But the battery bank is two strings of the NSB190 FT Blue+
batteries, for 404AH. The typical load overnight is only about 400watts
from what I can tell through Optics. Since the system is grid tied it is
getting to absorb every day.

There is no Flexnet on this one. When we set it up, I was thinking that the
Flexnet would just give bad SOC readings and confuse the customer since the
batteries are not often cycled. However, it is frustrating that remotely, I
can only see hourly voltage readings, which does not give much detail.
However, I think I just noticed something interesting. I was about to say
that the low reading is not accurate, because yesterday it showed the low
being 49.2V. I noticed right now that the "temperature compensated target
voltage" was 2V lower than the actual voltage.  Optics seems to display the
actual voltage (since I see right now that the batteries are hanging out 2V
above the float setting. Anyway, if the system is using temperature
compensated voltage for the cutoff, then seeing 49.2V was actually the LBCO
cutoff voltage (since the settings was 47.2V). And I had the Grid Zero DOD
V set to 48. So, I had 0.8V difference between the settings, but I need it
to be >2V difference (on a chilly morning).

Also, frustrating, is that these batteries want a 2mV per cell temp
compensation. But the Radian can only do 5mV per cell. So on these cold
mornings, the Radian is probably overcompensating for the cold
temperatures.

Cheers,
Dave

On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 7:45 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hello Dave,
>
> Be sure you calibrate the flexnet and the inverter voltage.  My gut
> feeling is that the Delta voltage you have is too tight.  If you have the
> system on Optics, I'd set the LBCO pretty low, then observe how much
> voltage sag (or where your voltage cliff is) you are getting at
> the discharge SOC you are going for, then you can work your LBCO back up.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 8:47 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Dave
>>
>> What is the size of the battery bank and what is the typical load, let’s
>> say at night or some other peak time?
>>
>> Bank size, SOC and demand can influence voltage. LBCO at 47.2 could be
>> too high under smaller bank higher load situations.
>>
>> Also, with the AC coupled solar in an off grid case, what is the
>> likelyhood of reaching Absorb daily or at least a couple times a week?
>>
>> The bottom line is to know the likely solar production kWh. The load kWh
>> and try to use just a bit of the battery storage kWh to keep the batteries
>> viable and reduce the electric bill without sacrificing the backup
>> capacity. OpticsRE can help fine tune these settings.
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Maverick
>>
>> Maverick Brown
>> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006
>> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.
>>  • Solar Commander Remote Power
>>  • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection
>> maver...@mavericksolar.com
>> 512-460-9825
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 25, 2024, at 5:57 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> A minor update here. I had the grid zero DOD volts set to 48, and the low
>> battery cut out was set to 47.2v. But the homeowner told me that their
>> loads cut out at some point. Does anyone know whether it is possible that
>> Outback would be using a temperature compensated voltage for one of those
>> setpoints and a non-temperature compensated voltage for the other one?
>>
>> Thanks!
>> -Dave
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024, 3:33 PM Dave Tedeyan 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Maverick and Steve,
>>>
>>> Thank you much for pointing me in the right direction here. I was
>>> looking at the Radian setting and not the Mate3S settings. I've decided to
>>> use the flextime schedule to have it go to grid zero mode at night when we
>>> will not be exporting any solar power anyway. It really does not matter in
>>> this case whether the batteries get recharged by the grid or from the AC
>>> coupled solar.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:25 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 Yes, Grid Zero would work, but the customer wouldn't be selling power
 to the utility.   You could program the Radan to sell more power by
 lowering the sell voltage. I would get aggressive with it for at least
 20-30 cycles to see if you can recover some capacity. Ideally, to recover
 lost capacity from lead batteries, you want to do 50-80% cycling for at
 least 5-10 cycles.

 I would be cautious about HBX mode, its issue, and why this mode should
 have died with the old Trace Eng inverters... HBX mode tends to kill
 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid-Tied Radian Force Discharge

[Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches]

Hello Dave,

Be sure you calibrate the flexnet and the inverter voltage.  My gut feeling
is that the Delta voltage you have is too tight.  If you have the system on
Optics, I'd set the LBCO pretty low, then observe how much voltage sag (or
where your voltage cliff is) you are getting at the discharge SOC you are
going for, then you can work your LBCO back up.



On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 8:47 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Dave
>
> What is the size of the battery bank and what is the typical load, let’s
> say at night or some other peak time?
>
> Bank size, SOC and demand can influence voltage. LBCO at 47.2 could be too
> high under smaller bank higher load situations.
>
> Also, with the AC coupled solar in an off grid case, what is the
> likelyhood of reaching Absorb daily or at least a couple times a week?
>
> The bottom line is to know the likely solar production kWh. The load kWh
> and try to use just a bit of the battery storage kWh to keep the batteries
> viable and reduce the electric bill without sacrificing the backup
> capacity. OpticsRE can help fine tune these settings.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Maverick
>
> Maverick Brown
> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006
> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.
>  • Solar Commander Remote Power
>  • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection
> maver...@mavericksolar.com
> 512-460-9825
>
>
>
> On Apr 25, 2024, at 5:57 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
> A minor update here. I had the grid zero DOD volts set to 48, and the low
> battery cut out was set to 47.2v. But the homeowner told me that their
> loads cut out at some point. Does anyone know whether it is possible that
> Outback would be using a temperature compensated voltage for one of those
> setpoints and a non-temperature compensated voltage for the other one?
>
> Thanks!
> -Dave
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024, 3:33 PM Dave Tedeyan 
> wrote:
>
>> Maverick and Steve,
>>
>> Thank you much for pointing me in the right direction here. I was looking
>> at the Radian setting and not the Mate3S settings. I've decided to use the
>> flextime schedule to have it go to grid zero mode at night when we will not
>> be exporting any solar power anyway. It really does not matter in this case
>> whether the batteries get recharged by the grid or from the AC coupled
>> solar.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dave
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:25 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, Grid Zero would work, but the customer wouldn't be selling power to
>>> the utility.   You could program the Radan to sell more power by lowering
>>> the sell voltage. I would get aggressive with it for at least 20-30 cycles
>>> to see if you can recover some capacity. Ideally, to recover lost capacity
>>> from lead batteries, you want to do 50-80% cycling for at least 5-10
>>> cycles.
>>>
>>> I would be cautious about HBX mode, its issue, and why this mode should
>>> have died with the old Trace Eng inverters... HBX mode tends to kill
>>> battery banks if left there too long or you are not getting the battery to
>>> 100%. The problem with HBX mode is that there is no way to control absorb
>>> timers, so the batteries get to the 80-85% range but never get to full; if
>>> the batteries are lead, this is going to create sulfation problems, and if
>>> AGM will end up in severe swelling.If I remember correctly, you can
>>> adjust the delay timer for HBX, which should be equal to the programmed
>>> Absrob timers, but I don't know if they killed this in the new firmware.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
>>> t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
>>> f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only
>>> for the