Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW battery monitor
Hi: The Schneider Battery Monitor, 1. The battery monitor will operate independently and store battery information into a micro-SD card. This info can be accessed by plugging in a USB cord from your laptop to the BM. The data will show up as a new hard drive in your laptop and the files will be in EXCEL format. This can be done with any battery based system, indeed anything with a battery. 2. In order to access the data remotely through the WEB, you will need a COMBOX with Combox firmware rev 3.00 BN 707. A Combox and BM will give you the ability to configure the BM and collect and access battery data log info over the WEB. 3. In order to be able to setup and control the BM with the SCP, System Control Panel, you will need SCP firmware rev 2.01 BN 8 If you're using the BM on Schneider battery based equipment then, 4. For the generator start module, you will need AGS firmware rev 3.00 BN 2 5. For the MPPT-60 charge controller, you will need MPPT-60 firmware rev 1.07 BN 6 6. For the HV-MPPT-80 charge controller, you will need HV-MPPT-80 firmware rev 1.01 BN 1 It's ok to have older firmware in any of the devices, but you will have missing menus and functions such as the state of charge functions on the XW. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: jay jay.pe...@gmail.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 08/24/2015 09:19 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW battery monitor Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org HI All, Does anybody know where to find what version firmware of the SCP/inverter/CC that the XW battery monitor needs to work with? I can’t seem to find that data. thanks jay ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries
Hi: It occurred to me that with all the experience on the Wrenches community, we have a unique opportunity to get perspective on one aspect of battery bank natural aging and failure. Which cells typically fail first, A. The cells on the end of the strings B. The cells in the middle of the strings C. Random cells in any position. If there is a pattern to failures among a large group of systems, then that will support cell rotation. If not, then not. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 08/13/2015 07:03 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Most failures have been in one string of 4 or 8 batteries. One failure was in two strings of 4. At 10:26 PM 8/12/2015, you wrote: What size are the banks are are they series/paralleled across the terminals? That can cause one or more cells to fail, generally starting on the negative terminal. The set that failed on me was series/parallel across the terminals, old school, and the cell closest to the main negative overheated and shorted out, killing that string. It’s why I went to buss bars. Tom From: Drake Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 12:03 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
Hi: People may already know about this, but I thought I would pass it on in case some dont. We do a lot of work with the boating and RV industry in the US and overseas. One sealant name which has come up a lot with strong positive reviews regarding age related drying/shrinking not only in the US but overseas as well is SIKA. Here's a link to their website, http://usa.sika.com/ JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Matt Partymiller m...@solar-energy-solutions.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 08/06/2015 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Daniel, My answer is to flash until others prove me wrong. I am in the same position you are, speaking to the same manufacturers you are, and probably dealing with the same low competitor pricing you are. These products sure sound tempting. Over the past decade I have probably removed a dozen 80's era hot air or hot water systems that were directly attached to roofs (installed by others). In every instance the roof was a complete mess and required deck replacement. I now tell homeowners just to contact a roofer and have them dispose of the collectors in the process of re-roofing - we will come out after the new roof is in place. I think you summed up the sealant problem quite well. I sell my systems as a 25 year product. I am not satisfied that butyl is a 25 year answer. Until someone convinces me otherwise, I will relate as much to my customers and proceed with proper flashings. Good poll. Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 m...@solar-energy-solutions.com On Thu, August 6, 2015 12:47 pm, Daniel Young wrote: Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this question on the wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there. I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion that simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue 10+yrs down the road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an L-foot and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared 8+yrs ago. Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht ml List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Dream system.
Hi: I would add, 1. Battery Monitoring with logging capability 2. Remote monitoring and control over the web 3. Lion battery and battery manager, (open format manager circuits so that it can be seen how things work). 4. GFCI's and ELCI's on AC circuits 5. Generator and automatic generator start controller If you suggestions on specific models, contact me offline JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Solar dahlso...@gmail.com To: Wrenches RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 07/31/2015 02:05 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hello all, I was recently hired to be the full time electrical instructor at a local community college. In the second year of the class there is a 6 credit renewable energy and habitat house course. I have been teaching at this college as an adjunct instructor since 2009 teaching for 3 of the 7 local iron ore mines,the local paper mill as well as doing most of the NEC code update courses. During that time I ran a one year and a 6 month solar PV course. I have a fairly nice lab built for the PV course consisting of the following: 2 axis tracker Fixed tilt pole mount 20'x16' mock roof with shingles and metal roofing Enphase systems (3) 700W SMA inverters Outback setup Xantrax 600v 80A charge controller Magnum 4024 inverter (AC coupled goal with this) Tigos 300W Morningstar on a demo cart Couple Solectria inverter (not used much) Trace 4024 (purchased in 99) Trace DR 1524 that goes along with our 1Kw Bergy Multiple battery brands and types AGM and flooded Pathfinders Suneye (2 210s) 600V Solmetric PVA Racking, quickmounts standoffs, clamps nuts and bolts... Modules include: 90W sunwize, Solarwolrd 175, REC 215W, silicon energy 190W, kyocera 210W, solar frontier 100W (I think 100W) AEE 95W, Dasol 15, 30, 135w. Assuming I stay with this job for the next 25 years, which will take me into my early 60s and my goal, I will have a yearly budget to spend adding to this lab. Here is the question, seeing what we have now what individual pieces would you add or what system would you build with the goal of community education or training electrical students and electricians. Long winded but I am very interested to hear your ideas! Have a good weekend and thanks! Jesse Sent from my iPhone ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof
Hi: I went over and looked at my calculations whereby I arrived at the simple expression that the change in harvested solar energy is bounded by the sin of the angle of tilt to the North. As I was doing it however, it became clear that the reason this simple result popped up, is simply because, 1. The effect of tilting an array North is exactly the same as if the system was physically relocated farther North by that amount of degrees latitude. 2. There is a linearly decreasing amount of annual insolation which is a linear function of latitude. Latitude versus Average Annual Insolation 30 degrees latitude has 8.7 kWh-m2 40 degrees latitude has 7.8 kWh-m2 50 degrees latitude has 6.7 kWh-m2 60 degrees latitude has 5.6 kWh-m2 3. The SIN function is very linear for small angles up to about 40 degrees Angle versus sin sin(10) = 0.17 sin(20) = 0.34 sin(30) = 0.5 sin(40) = 0.64 The sin expression describing the effect of north tilt is a bounding function, whereby it bounds the maximum reduction in energy harvest as a function of tilt. It is a bounding analysis as it does not take into account the effect of atmospheric diffuse radiation which has the effect of making the tilt loss less than it would be if the earth had no atmosphere. For example if an array was tilted north by 40 degrees in Vancouver, with no atmosphere the modules would see no sunlight for 6 months of the year. With an atmosphere, there is still a lot of light to be gathered. Regardless, my intent with the exercise from the beginning was to find a bound for the potential loss effect of North tilt so that I could continue to advocate the maximum use of roof space even when that roof is North facing. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: billbroo...@sbcglobal.net To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 07/28/2015 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Jarmo, Unfortunately, simple is wrong in this case—and detrimental to the PV industry that needs all the roof real estate it can find. Bill. Bill Brooks, PE Principal Brooks Engineering From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 10:43 AM To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Hi: Granted that the description is very simple, but that is the intent. The essence of it is that the loss for small variations in angle of incidence is approximately bounded by, (less than), the sin of the angle between the orientations of two panels/arrays in question. 10 degrees --- minus 17% 20 degrees --- minus 33% 30 degrees --- minus 50% If you go through the detailed math and take into account atmospheric effects, especially when the sun is near the horizons, temperature, location, weather, etc., the result will vary, but will not be worse than the sin of the angle. I'll draw out better picture with more detail for Vancouver. We're at a fairly high latitude, so overall array orientation is a more sensitive factor than farther south. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Brian Mehalic br...@solarenergy.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 07/28/2015 09:48 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org The analysis of 50% of south facing production is too simplistic; running some modeling shows that, depending on the latitude, the difference can be much smaller, approaching 25% less for the north facing. I think this layout could become more common especially on low slope commercial roofs, where the north facing module would occupy space that was already unused due to interrow shading. Of course the closer to the equator the less difference between production of the north and south arrays...and you better be careful when stringing them in series so
Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof
I did a slide on the effect of North facing modules. For even a fairly aggressive rotation North as shown, the effect is only a 50% reduction. The questions of whether or not to do it, are, - is the mounting structure simpler, lower cost - security against wind - can I put a larger array on the roof (typically yes, if you make back to back pyramid shaped structures) - overall, what is the cost versus benefit JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Peter Parrish peter.parr...@calsolareng.com To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 07/28/2015 12:22 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously considered.” I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know more about it. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter...@pobox.com __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof
Hi: Granted that the description is very simple, but that is the intent. The essence of it is that the loss for small variations in angle of incidence is approximately bounded by, (less than), the sin of the angle between the orientations of two panels/arrays in question. 10 degrees --- minus 17% 20 degrees --- minus 33% 30 degrees --- minus 50% If you go through the detailed math and take into account atmospheric effects, especially when the sun is near the horizons, temperature, location, weather, etc., the result will vary, but will not be worse than the sin of the angle. I'll draw out better picture with more detail for Vancouver. We're at a fairly high latitude, so overall array orientation is a more sensitive factor than farther south. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Brian Mehalic br...@solarenergy.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 07/28/2015 09:48 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org The analysis of 50% of south facing production is too simplistic; running some modeling shows that, depending on the latitude, the difference can be much smaller, approaching 25% less for the north facing. I think this layout could become more common especially on low slope commercial roofs, where the north facing module would occupy space that was already unused due to interrow shading. Of course the closer to the equator the less difference between production of the north and south arrays...and you better be careful when stringing them in series so as not to mix N and S facing..plus filling in all those gaps between rows could make servicing the array a bit problematic! Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 10:24 AM, billbroo...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Jarmo, The sun’s geometry is not nearly that simple. To understand the impact of north-facing arrays, you have to perform a simulation. PV:WATTS does this just fine and it is easy to show that a 18-degreed North-facing tilt produces 75% of a perfect 30-degree south-facing array. Far more than your assumption of 50%. To compare 15-degrees South to 15-degrees North, the numbers are slightly better at 77%. We are going to see a lot of north-facing arrays once people understand that low tilt angles are very forgiving on North slopes. Steep slopes are a totally different story and you have to run the numbers…. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 8:04 AM To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof I did a slide on the effect of North facing modules. For even a fairly aggressive rotation North as shown, the effect is only a 50% reduction. The questions of whether or not to do it, are, - is the mounting structure simpler, lower cost - security against wind - can I put a larger array on the roof (typically yes, if you make back to back pyramid shaped structures) - overall, what is the cost versus benefit JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Peter Parrish peter.parr...@calsolareng.com To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 07/28/2015 12:22 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these locations, increasing overall kW installation while
Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof
The intent of the simple example was to show that production is not severely affected by unusual orientations. I will clarify my message. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: billbroo...@sbcglobal.net To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 07/28/2015 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Jarmo, Unfortunately, simple is wrong in this case—and detrimental to the PV industry that needs all the roof real estate it can find. Bill. Bill Brooks, PE Principal Brooks Engineering From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 10:43 AM To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Hi: Granted that the description is very simple, but that is the intent. The essence of it is that the loss for small variations in angle of incidence is approximately bounded by, (less than), the sin of the angle between the orientations of two panels/arrays in question. 10 degrees --- minus 17% 20 degrees --- minus 33% 30 degrees --- minus 50% If you go through the detailed math and take into account atmospheric effects, especially when the sun is near the horizons, temperature, location, weather, etc., the result will vary, but will not be worse than the sin of the angle. I'll draw out better picture with more detail for Vancouver. We're at a fairly high latitude, so overall array orientation is a more sensitive factor than farther south. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Brian Mehalic br...@solarenergy.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 07/28/2015 09:48 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org The analysis of 50% of south facing production is too simplistic; running some modeling shows that, depending on the latitude, the difference can be much smaller, approaching 25% less for the north facing. I think this layout could become more common especially on low slope commercial roofs, where the north facing module would occupy space that was already unused due to interrow shading. Of course the closer to the equator the less difference between production of the north and south arrays...and you better be careful when stringing them in series so as not to mix N and S facing..plus filling in all those gaps between rows could make servicing the array a bit problematic! Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 10:24 AM, billbroo...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Jarmo, The sun’s geometry is not nearly that simple. To understand the impact of north-facing arrays, you have to perform a simulation. PV:WATTS does this just fine and it is easy to show that a 18-degreed North-facing tilt produces 75% of a perfect 30-degree south-facing array. Far more than your assumption of 50%. To compare 15-degrees South to 15-degrees North, the numbers are slightly better at 77%. We are going to see a lot of north-facing arrays once people understand that low tilt angles are very forgiving on North slopes. Steep slopes are a totally different story and you have to run the numbers…. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 8:04 AM To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof I did a slide on the effect of North facing modules. For even a fairly aggressive rotation North as shown, the effect is only a 50% reduction. The questions of whether or not to do it, are, - is the mounting structure simpler, lower cost - security against wind - can I put a larger
Re: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers
Hi: When deciding on voltage drops and otherwise working out the design of a solar system, one thing that needs careful attention is to make sure that the array voltage does not drop below a level at which the inverter cannot produce full power. This voltage will occur when the inverter is working at full input current such as a hypothetical 3000 W inverter which can handle a maximum of 10 Amps of input current to produce its full rated 3000 Watts (10Amps @ 300 Vdc). At any voltage less than 300 Vdc, the power will be limited by the maximum 10 Amps. For example at 290 Vdc you get 2.9 kW, 280 Vdc you get 2.8kW, and so on. Even if the inverter can operate down to 100 Vdc, you don't want to be anywhere near there, especially not during the midday hours as that will hurt peak power production, a lot. In this case -0.3% loss for every volt below 300Vdc. Identifying this voltage for a particular inverter may not however be straightforward due to wide variety of wording used in specifying ratings. Wording such as, 1. operating voltage range 2. full power operating voltage range 3. MPPT operating voltage range 4. minimum operating voltage 5. minimum MPPT operating voltage 6. rated operating voltage range 7. Rated MPPT operating voltage range 8. starting voltage 9. nominal operating voltage range 10. maximum input current 11. minimum input voltage 12. minimum DC voltage 13. nominal DC input current 14. maximum operating DC input current 15. maximum continuous operating DC input current 17. When looking for the voltage below which you don't want go, look for the following: 1. The maximum operating input current 2. The minimum MPPT operating voltage Then make sure the array can produce at least that much voltage and current when its really hot when the resistance of all the wires is more than at room temperature. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Glenn Burt glenn.b...@glbcc.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 07/25/2015 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org You would want to confirm hot temp PV circuit values with chosen Vdrop to ensure the irrelevant value doesn't drop you out of the inverters' operational limit, however. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. From: Chris Mason Sent: 7/25/2015 15:20 To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers It should be noted that the NEC recommendations for feeder circuits are to do with acceptable voltages at the load, i.e., you do not want your 208V equipment running on 200V. PV circuits are not feeder circuits, voltage drop is irrelevant. Power loss may be relevant, but only in terms of economic value. If it is preferable to add more PV and lose 10% of the power, as long as there are no issues of heat and potential fire, why shouldn't you be able to make that decision? As PV gets cheaper, replacing cables costing $10,000 to save $10 a year does not make sense. The NEC rules on voltage drop were never designed for PV source circuits. On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 11:52 PM, Jerry Shafer jerrysgarag...@gmail.com wrote: Wrenches I have 3 engineering firms and one in-house engineer that only use 1% because in the NEC it is stated as a suggestion and not a requirement but they take this as a must not exceed instead, I cant change CC as it will be remotely monitored via the Outback connection, the Engineers refuse to make any changes to the 1% and still stamp the drawings. This is what I have found in my research it came from Mike Holt Contrary to common belief, the NEC generally doesn't require you to size conductors to accommodate voltage drop. It merely suggests in the Fine Print Notes to 210.19(A), 215.2(A)(4), 230.31(C), and 310.15(A)(1) that you adjust for voltage drop when sizing conductors. It's important for you to remember that Fine Print Notes are recommendations, not requirements [90.5(C)]. The NEC recommends that the maximum combined voltage drop for both the feeder and branch circuit shouldn't exceed 5%, and the maximum on the feeder or branch circuit shouldn't exceed 3%. This recommendation is a performance issue, not a safety issue. Jerry On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com wrote: Jerry, A long distance wire run is practical now days using a high voltage controller. Have a look at Schneider
Re: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers
Hi: Copper conduction losses are proportional to (current) x (current) x (resistance). For the same wire gauge, double the current means that the losses increase by 4X. Going from 150 VDC to 300 VDC will therefore allow you use 4X thinner wire and going up to 600 VDC will allow you to use 16X thinner wire. It's very non-linear. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Jerry Shafer jerrysgarag...@gmail.com To: RE-wrenches RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 07/22/2015 11:52 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Wrenches Some time back there was discussion on the conductor size and efficiency rating requirement for long DC runs. What I am looking at is this, 400 feet of MCM 400 to keep the line loss at or below 1% per NEC code for an off grid application, cost vs return is not acceptable. 2/0 is less than 2.5% and the cost is far less. Specs are 4 strings of 3, 250 watt modules feeding one Outback FM 80 charge controller. There are lots of things I can do like SMA instread, or 200 VDC charge controller but nothing can be changed except the wire gauge. Does anyone recall a thread with this topic. thoughts ?? Jerry __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation
Hi: This thread reminded me of an article I saw about 2 years ago, where the researcher had compiled a graph of solar module start-ups per year up until 2012, with the limiting constraint that the companies had to UL 1703 listed and qualify for the California Solar Initiative. Virtually all the companies started their business less than 10 years ago during the first boom in the second half of the 2000's. Only three have actually been through a 25 year warranty period. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: b...@midnitesolar.com b...@midnitesolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 07/18/2015 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi Bill From what I understand, and I have asked this question to different people at different companies, the 25 year warranty people hear about concerning PV is not for a broken panel within 25 years but the degradation in performance over the years. If a PV module just plain old breaks (goes to zero output) in, say 20 years and it has a 25 year degradation warranty, the PV manufacturer, (if still in business), is not obligated to replace the defective module ...Even if it resulted from a factory defect. I do not know what the warranty period is for manufacturing defects. I hear warranty times of around 10 years. I am not exactly sure on that though. Having said all this, there are companies that do replace modules after their short term memory is up due to manufacturing defects. Kyocera comes to mind immediately. These are typically larger companies from what I see. I'm just repeating what I have heard over the years regarding PV. It just seems to me somewhat misleading the words 25 year warranty. There may be some companies that actually DO offer a full 25 yr. warranty these days but what if they aren't around before then ? I bet that Bill Hoffer could offer way better information than I can about this. boB On 7/18/2015 3:29 AM, solar1onl...@charter.net wrote: boB, Can you expand on the warranty coverage in this situation? TIA, Bill - From: b...@midnitesolar.com To: RE-wrenches Cc: Sent: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 19:01:32 -0700 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation It's too bad that when a module goes to a REAL high degradation, like, 100% down to nothing before that 25 year warranty is up, that it is NOT considered degradation and is not covered under warranty. P.S. This has nothing to do with Trina or any PV company in particular. boB On 7/16/2015 6:24 PM, jay wrote: HI Peter, I’ll bite. From the folks I know who deal with multi mega watt systems, are seeing less than that level of degradation. That said, the standard module 25 yr warranty to 80% is just on .7% year if I have my math correct. jay peltz power On Jul 16, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peter Parrish peter.parr...@calsolareng.com wrote: I have recently been in discussion with a company that builds a large number of medium-sized PV ground mount system (30 kW to over 100 kW). They claim that they have been seeing something on the order of 0.7% annual degradation in the output of their systems due to intrinsic degradation in the PV modules. They also claim that this number is supported by the PV module manufacturer. Many years ago (2007?) I remember reading a report containing data gathered by NREL that showed the number was about 0.4%, and I thought the number was actually decreasing over time. The module in question is the Trina TSM-310 (PA14.8, I believe, if it makes any difference). Has anyone read anything recent about annual degradation in general or Trina modules in particular? - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 NABCEP Certified PV Installer #031806-26 (323) 839-6108 peter...@pobox.com __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator brains
Hi: Having both connected will work the way you want, only if you make sure the solar charger charging voltage is higher than the Kohler charger voltage. When the solar charging source has higher voltage it will trump the lower Kohler charging voltage an do the charging when the sun is out. When the sun is not out, the Kohler will do the job. However, if the solar charging source is never higher, the solar charger will not be able to create any charging current as it will always see an already high battery terminal voltage as maintained by the Kohler. If there is no charging voltage adjustment on the Solar or Kohler charger, you could put one, (or more as required) diodes, in series on the Kohler charging wire to drop its voltage enough to make sure the solar charger voltage is slightly higher. The diodes could be anything as long as they can handle the full charge current from the Kohler. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: frenergy frene...@psln.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 07/16/2015 08:23 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator brains Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Wrenches, We recently discussed the significant load the brains of many gensets requires, especially in off-grid. I have been trying to keep the start battery and brains of a Kohler 14KW gen charged with a ~40 PV. This works fine until the winter. Any issues with keeping that PV connected (with its charge controller) and re-connecting the supplied-by-Kohler power source connection to keep the battery and brains happy? I would like to think the PV would take some of the load off the AC connection to the main off-grid system, with no conflicts. TIA Bill Feather River Solar Electric ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Energy
Hi: There was a lot of talk about on this forum some months ago. Aquion is a very unique word, so a keyword search should work very well. Michael, is there a method by which we can do a keyword search of past posts? JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Mark Frye ma...@berkeleysolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 07/16/2015 05:20 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Energy Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Does anyone have any thoughts/experience with the Aquion Energy battery? Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring
Hi: It's not possible to have no loop area at all, but cables should be run in ways to minimize the loop area. If you run the + or - along the side of the batteries for example, then that has the effect of minimizing the total loop. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Benn Kilburn b...@skyfireenergy.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 06/29/2015 02:55 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org What about when you have the (+) and (-) terminals at opposite ends of a larger battery bank? Sure you can run the conductors side-by-side once they meet up on their way to the inverter, but would you consider the distance between the end terminals a large loop? Ideally the battery string is laid out so the end terminals are close together and close to the inverter, but this isn't always the case. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:28 AM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: From the comments so far, it appears that within the wrenches group, good practices are the rule and DC cables are kept side by side, so the problem I mentioned hasn't come up much. I have seen large loop battery cables a couple of times in solar installs myself out on islands way down south. Also on boats/RV's/motor homes. Please keep the cable loop in mind when you do bench tests of inverters, as it may screw up the results and make it seem like there is something wrong with the inverter. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 mime-attachment.gif mime-attachment.gif mime-attachment.gif mime-attachment.gif mime-attachment.gif *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: b...@midnitesolar.com b...@midnitesolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 06/28/2015 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would make in the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC. It is little known that with the typical inverters that use the heavy power transformers, have a lot of AC 120 Hz (or 100 Hz for 50 Hz systems) current mixed in with that DC battery current. The AC output current reflects back to the input as ripple current. This is why you want to have at least short as possible Sbattery cable runs AND keep the wires as close together as possible. Twisting the battery cables may help a bit but that is probably overkill. The problem has to do with inductance in the battery cables. You can use as big of cable as you can fit in to reduce resistance, but that will not help to lower the inductance. The problems you can sometimes have with high inductance is that L-C resonance at the inverter can raise the peak voltages seen at the inverter input terminals and can be hard on the inverter. Then again, the high frequency, lighter weight inverters will typically keep most of that ripple inside, between the DC input and AC output and battery cable inductance will not be as much of a problem on the battery cables. boB Gudgel On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: As a matter of course I have always run the positive and negative conductors of high-current cable pairs together, but have never deliberately twisted them, and have never known of any related problems. The most obvious example of this would be 4/0 battery/inverter cables in a 24V system, with a 250A GJ-class breaker or (prior to that) a 300A or 400A Class T fuse. It's pretty tough to thread a twisted pair of 4/0 USE/RHH/RHW cables through a 2 elbow or LB from inverter enclosure to battery enclosure. I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would make in the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC. I have twisted AC conductors together in the past when clients have expressed concerns about EMF from their equipment and wiring, but only AC. Allan Allan Sindelar al
[RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring
Hi: From time to time over the years I've come across systems where the routing of DC cables between the batteries and the inverter has been the cause of issues. I'm not referring to wire thickness or quality of terminations. For the purposes of this discussion, just assume that wire thickness and terminations are perfect. What I am referring to is the routing of the positive and negative battery cables. In particular, the loop area within the + and - cables as shown in the image below, The problem I've seen in systems with a large loop in the setup is that the inverter does not provide good surge power and can even go into low voltage shutdown during large surges. Recently this happened again and I wanted to get a better feel for it, so I did some math. For a cable length of about 12', the loop is an inductor which has a value of inductance of about 1 uH for side by side cables and as much as 6 uH for cables about 1 foot apart. This inductance is greatly multiplied by any ferrous metal in the loop and can easily be in the range of 10's to 100's of uH. Examples being cables which run in steel conduits or along the steel frame of a motor home. Inductance causes a voltage drop proportional to the rate at which the current is changing. To get an idea of how large that rate can be for typical inverters, I did surge tests with a 5kW inverter and found that the rate of change of current can be as high as 100A per milli-second or 100,000 Amps/second. Given that, the voltage drop of the wire inductance is then , Vdrop = (rate of change of current) x (inductance), Vdrop for 1 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.01 H) = 0.1V Vdrop for 10 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.01 H) = 1.0V Vdrop for 100 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.01 H) = 10.0Vclearly this is a problem. Have any of the wrenches had systems with this issue? If so, how often. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating with Lightning Protection
Hi: I really like the very thorough lightning protection guide they have available for download. Here's the link http://www.dehn-international.com/sites/default/files/uploads/dehn/pdf/blitzplaner/bpl2015/lpg_2015_e_complete.pdf Thanks for the referral Brian. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Brian Mehalic br...@solarenergy.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 06/04/2015 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating with Lightning Protection Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org DEHN has some great resources for various types of PV systems, and a chapter on it in their free lightning protection guide. Haven't looked in a while but seemed like great info. Brian On Jun 4, 2015, at 1:03 PM, Garrison Riegel garri...@solarserviceinc.com wrote: Wrenches, Does anyone have any best practice recommendations (or books, articles, etc) for integrating a roof mounted PV system with a lightning protection system? Bare #6 copper and a split bolt to the braided copper connecting air terminals? At both ends of the array? Or should we not bond these systems on the roof? Opinions on a 2009 Wrenches thread varied, but I’ve heard it from a few sources that these should be bonded directly. Wondering if there is a general consensus at this point? Or strong opinions one way or the other? Thanks for your thoughts. Garrison Riegel PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garri...@solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] iron aluminum
Hi: One thing which has come up a lot since the solar industry really took off in the last 10 years is that of corrosion and degradation of exposed metal on racks and modules. Corrosion due to dissimilar metals, aka galvanic corrosion, is due to the natural characteristics of the metals. To get a relative sense of the magnitude of the problem, all the metals can be stacked up in table where at one end are the metals which don't corrode and the other, the ones which do. With this layout, the farther apart they are in table, the faster the corrodible metal will corrode. (This shows that zinc is a good sacrificial metal for every other metal except Magnesium). There is another effect which is at least as, or in some cases even more significant. That is the dissimilar coefficients of thermal expansion. The table below lists a bunch of common metals. The units for the numbers are, micro-meters per meter per degree Celsius. Most Expansive Zinc 30 Cadmium 30 Lead 28 Magnesium 25 Tin 23 Aluminium 22 Silver 20 Brass 19 Copper 16 Stainless Steel 16 Gold 14 Steel/Iron 11 Titanium 8 Graphite 8 Least Expansive As in the previous table, the farther apart the metals are the worse is the situation as the metals are cycled through mid winter lows to high noon summer temperatures. You can also see that steel/iron has an issue with almost every other metal. One way to deal with the galvanic corrosion is by having a zinc coating or perhaps zinc anodes up in the framework in such a place so that the zinc residue will run down the posts as the zinc oxidizes. With the thermal expansion, the use of rubber/plastic/nylon bushings will allow for thermal cycling without allowing metal fatigue and/or damage. In the case of iron, the galvanic potential between itself and aluminium is virtually non-existent. It's the thermal expansion which messes things up. Using bushings gives flexibility at the joint to allow for non-detrimental thermal expansion cycling. One other related thing to note is the the thermal coefficient of expansion for masonry is in the range of 3-4. That's a lot different than aluminium, so the rubbery joints help a lot in this case. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: RM You solarea...@solareagle.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 05/28/2015 07:21 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] iron aluminum Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi Wrenches, I have had a couple of customers want to fabricate their own PV pole mounts and racks out of iron. Aside from the galvanic corrosion and weight issues is there anything else I should caution these guys about? Any stories about failures etc? My druthers are to stay with the engineered aluminum pole mounts but when you’re dealing with someone with fabrication experience and the cost for pre-fab is high then the obvious outcome occurs. If the unit is properly treated/painted I imagine it could last many years. Is there a way to attach an anode to such a rack or would simple non conductive insulation between panels and rack be the best answer? Ron Young ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Discrepency between inverter kWH reading and solar production meter
Hi: The difference is in the accuracy of revenue grade versus inverter KWh meters. Revenue grade is typically much more accurate. Beyond that, even if the accuracy of both was really good at lets say +/- 0.5%, you could still get a 1% overall difference in readings as one could be +0.5% and other -0.5%, even though they are both working to spec. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Kevin Eigel ke...@ecohousesolar.com To: RE-wrenches RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 05/22/2015 02:38 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discrepency between inverter kWH reading and solar production meter Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org I recently installed a Solaredge 7600 inverter and two feet away from it installed a GE 210 solar kWh utility grade meter. Over the course of three months the kWh production measured by the inverter is more than 200 kWh greater then the production showing on the GE meter. I changed out the GE meter for the last week and the discrepancy has continued, so it looks like it is not the meter. I am looking for any help in understanding whey there is this large discrepancy on the kWh reading between the inverter and the production meter, when they are so close together. The Solaredge technical help desk has been of no use. -- Kevin Eigel President Ecohouse Solar 1857 Northwest Blvd. Ste 201, Columbus, OH 43212 www,ecohousesolar.com 614-805-5776 __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting
Hi: My thought is that the mechanism by which the battery voltage slowly rises under the influence of a solar module connected through a C40 type PWM controller is due to the fact that the PWM type controllers don't regulate voltage but rather connect the full output voltage of the module/array to the battery on a pulse width limited basis. Seems that those high voltage pulses, brief as they may be thanks to the PWM, are still none the less able to slowly raise the resting terminal voltage of at least some types of AGM batteries. I don't know enough about batteries to know if that is a problem or not. Perhaps its perfectly normal as almost any new lead acid battery will retain a higher than normal measurable ghost voltage just after it has been fully charged. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 05/20/2015 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org The modules are Sunwise 22 V, 40 W modules. The model number of the modules is SW-S40P SWT. The are wired in series for a 24 V nominal system. That would be an mppt voltage of 44 V on a system that directs batteries to absorb at 29.4 volts. I'm not sure what the NOCT voltage would be, but it would seem like it would be an ok fit? I think you are on the right track with the MPPT charging graph. The CC likely allows pulses of full charge to hit when the batteries are at their maximum set point voltage. Would a very short pulse of high voltage be a problem of a VRLA battery? Could any significant gassing take place? Thanks, Drake At 06:04 PM 5/19/2015, you wrote: Hi: We haven't changed anything the in C40. The essence of my idea was that perhaps the trouble systems are the ones which have much higher module Voc versus battery Vfloat. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Ray Walters r...@solarray.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 05/19/2015 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi Jarmo; Early solar systems actually tried to use the principle of matching array Vmpp to battery voltage in lieu of charge controllers. The biggest issue is that when it is is hot the module voltage can drop below the battery voltage needed, and when its cold the voltage will still be too high. Batteries were either over charged or never reached full charge depending on the conditions. I've used the C40 successfully for decades, so I'm wondering if the circuitry changed recently, or if different tolerance components were substituted that may be causing the drift? Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 5/19/2015 10:31 AM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: I didn't know that there were systems out there where a PWM charge controller such as the C-40 was producing an unhealthy, high battery voltage. Since there are, I may have a possible explanation. The C-series and other PWM type charge controllers operate by PWM whereby they very very quickly connect/disconnect the solar module to the battery bank. The amount of time which the module is connected to the array is the PWM on-period. These controllers do not have the ability to smooth out the output voltage. All they can do is apply the full module voltage OR not a __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail
[RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting
Hi: I didn't know that there were systems out there where a PWM charge controller such as the C-40 was producing an unhealthy, high battery voltage. Since there are, I may have a possible explanation. The C-series and other PWM type charge controllers operate by PWM whereby they very very quickly connect/disconnect the solar module to the battery bank. The amount of time which the module is connected to the array is the PWM on-period. These controllers do not have the ability to smooth out the output voltage. All they can do is apply the full module voltage OR not apply any module voltage to the battery. Here are some graphs that show this, It 's supposed to work out when the battery absorbs, smooths out and averages the output voltage pulses coming out of the PWM controller. Except, I'm hearing that, that is not necessarily true. It sounds like on some systems the batteries will not average voltage very well over time and indeed experience increasing and undesirably high terminal voltages over time. If this is the mechanism, I think one way alleviate or perhaps even eliminate the rising voltage problem is by matching the module Voc voltage to the desired battery float voltage. For example, if a 28 VDC float voltage was desired, then the solar module Voc should be chosen as something slightly above 28 VDC. i.e. I think the trick is to match the module Voc voltage to the desired battery float voltage. Perhaps a 32 Voc module for a 28 VDC float voltage. I'm not sure what the right number is, but if I'm correct about this mechanism, then a 50 Voc module on a 12 VDC battery, should the kind of system which experiences this overcharging/over voltage problem. You guys have seen many systems. Maybe you can comment on whether the systems which have had this trouble are also ones where the module Voc is much higher than the desired battery float voltage. Perhaps the trouble systems also tend to have a specific battery chemistry or even particular battery type. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail - Forwarded by Jarmo Venalainen/Canada/Schneider on 05/18/2015 07:02 PM - From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org To: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com, Date: 05/18/2015 03:35 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex C-40 Drifting Hi JARMO, The battery bank consists of four, 415 AH in a Full River AGM deep cycle batteries wired in a 24 volt series. The 80 W array is strictly a maintainer to keep the batteries charged when the AC coupled system is detached from the direct grid tie inverters. The only constant loads on the system are about 3 W of power that keeps the metering awake. The batteries are low self discharge. Thanks, Drake At 07:47 PM 5/14/2015, you wrote: Hi: 80W is a really small PV source, so I'm wondering how it can raise the battery voltage so much. What size is the battery? JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail - Forwarded by Jarmo Venalainen/Canada/Schneider on 05/14/2015 04:45 PM - From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 05/14/2015 04:30 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex C-40 Drifting Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org I have a Xantrex C-40 that won't keep its settings. It is important that it does because it is for a maintainer array (80 W) on an AGM battery bank, on an AC coupled backup system. Not only could high voltage damage the batteries, but when the voltage goes over 30 Volts, the AUX relay opens and the grid tie inverter is isolated from the grid. After numerous sessions of reprogramming, Xantrex tech support sent me a new unit. The problem persisted as before. A new temperature sensor helped, but the settings still drift. It seems that rebooting the charge controller helps for a day or so, but then it drifts again. The potentiometer settings are way below the calculated setting for 29.4 V, but it still peaks in the high 30s. I check the temperature compensated voltages on the Outback Mate, and the temp
Re: [RE-wrenches] Working Space
Hi: Back in the day when I was giving the Xantrex training for the GT, I was informed by our regulatory folks that we will base the 36 height on an interpretation of the electrical code whereby the switch is considered to be the same as any other electrical wall switch or outdoor receptacle. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Dave Click davecl...@fsec.ucf.edu To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 05/13/2015 01:09 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Working Space Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org I learned in a Xantrex GT training (way back) that their 36 bottom clearance requirement was to avoid [most] lawn sprinklers, so that may be the case here too. I'd still plan for it to be high enough to avoid any basement flooding and to remain easy to access. May be worth discussing with SMA ahead of time in case the AHJ complains about it during the field inspection. Dave On 2015/5/13 15:47, AE Solar wrote: Great thanks. SMA says 36 to the bottom of the disco so will go with that. On Wednesday, May 13, 2015, August Goers aug...@luminalt.com wrote: Hi Adam, To the best of my knowledge there is no minimum height specified in the NEC. However, many inverter manufacturers specify a minimum height. You’ll need refer to the manual for that. Best, August From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of AE Solar Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 12:37 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working Space Hey Wrenches, We are installing some inverters in a basement where the height we hang them at is limited by some windows. I'm trying to find a code reference that says how far off the ground the DC/AC disco on the inverter needs to be but am not finding one. Could be that they are in the 3' range. Not ideal but might be our best option. Anyone know where I could look up compliance? Thanks Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Copper bar current capacity?
Hi: You could relate the cross sectional area of the copper bar to circular mils using, 1 circular mil = 0.166 sq-in Then look up the current carrying capacity for wires of various sizes in circular mils. A copper bar with the same size in circular mils will carry the same current as a wire of that size in circular mils; actually more current as the copper is not insulated and is not round. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Larry la...@starlightsolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 04/29/2015 11:03 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Copper bar current capacity? Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi Wrenches, In building lithium battery systems, I have many components that need to be connected in series from the battery. Sometimes the space is very limited making it difficult to bend 2/0 cables. I would like to use copper flat bar and make parts to replace the cables. Does anyone know how much current I can run through copper bar based on its size? For example, 1 or 3/4 wide by .0625 up to .125 thick. The pieces will only be a few inches long and bolted to solenoids, shunt and terminal posts. -- Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] PV step-up transformer design
Hi: You've run into one of the reasons why single phase inverters which are operated as a 3-phase cluster, are supposed to have built in circuits/comm wires which send a shutdown signal from one to the others so that if one stops, they all do. The Xantrex GT / Conext TX have an RJ-11 wire connection called AC-sync which takes cares of this requirement. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun Wind ke...@whidbeysunwind.com To: RE Wrenches listserve re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 04/02/2015 03:19 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV step-up transformer design Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Wrenches, We have issues with a 1-1/2 year old 25 kW grid-tied PV system utilizing 2 step up transformers from the array to grid. Actually it’s two identical, 12.5 kW systems (for incentive and financing reasons) on each transformer. Note that the inverter size and voltage selection was also dictated by incentives. Each of the two systems are designed as follows: - 3, 3.8 kW, 240 Vac inverters (16A max output current) across each phase of the 240V, 3-ph Delta primary of a 15 kVA transformer. Each inverter 1-ph output has a fused disconnect. The output of all three inverters is combined into 3 phase delta configuration with terminal blocks before the transformer. Other than the inverter AC disconnects there is no OCPD on the 3-ph primary side of the transformer. - Transformer secondary to grid is 277/480 wye. The secondary output has two fused disconnects (one at each end of the 600-ft run between array and line-side connection) each with 20-A fuses. After more than year of operation we noticed one inverter, in one of the two identical systems, was down (monitoring showed it happened past December), indicating a grid problem. One fuse (of the 3) in the secondary (grid-side) fused disco had blown. Replaced that fuse, but then 2 fuses at the disconnect near the meter, 600 feet away, popped. Systematic checking of the system reveals no shorted conductors, but a problem at the transformer. Close inspection revealed that the insulation on our 90?C neutral conductor had slightly melted where it touched the X-O neutral wire of the transformer (the splice looked fine). Now it gets more interesting…. In the last week, while troubleshooting the first 12.5 kW system, its adjacent twin system had an inverter quit with a ground-fault error (these inverters commonly will display ground fault errors for other reasons). One of the 20A fuses in the secondary (grid 277/480) side had popped. And, yup, the neutral wire had signs of overheating. We shut all three inverters down in that system. The transformer doesn’t seem damaged, hopefully because we caught it in time. But we’re looking at a replacement transformer for the first system. Here’s what we think may have happened: The grid went down and, on coming back on, the in-rush current to the secondary side of the transformer popped a (undersized) fuse, taking out one leg of the 480. One inverter on the primary side saw a bad grid and dropped out, but the other two connected and kept producing. This unbalanced production resulted in the neutral of the secondary wye (grid) side of the transformer, being overloaded. Over 3 months this unbalanced operation damaged the transformer. Initially we replaced the fuses near the line-connection with 60A (it’s a hot-swap and we don’t want those to go again unless the conductors need it), and the fuses near the array transformer secondary with 30A, thinking that will handle the inrush current to the transformer after a grid outage better than the 20A fuses. However, after a lot of discussion, research, and consideration of the risk (of replacing another transformer) we’re wondering if we need to alter the design more substantially. The main design change we’re considering is to replace the fused disconnect on the secondary side with a 3-phase breaker, that will shut off all phases of the grid supply simultaneously in case of an over-current fault. But, what if one inverter just plain quits and that breaker stays on? Will the neutral on the secondary still be overloaded from the other two? Other changes we’re pondering include: - Do we need a ganged 3-ph breaker on the inverter side, so that all three inverters go off at once? This will only be useful in case of over current on an inverter output, which isn’t likely, and is now addressed with the fused 240 AC 1-ph disconnects
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
Hi: Please be careful when working with solar system size Lithium packs on the cell level. We have been doing on-going testing with Lion battery packs from various suppliers and even with their built in temp sensors and other BMS circuits, have already had two thermal events. Lion is very unforgiving with regards low state of charge, high state of charge, temperature (110F is the max temp at which they should be charged and 140F is the max they can handle). Given the low thermal mass of Lion cells, a high rate of discharge or charge quickly gets the cell temperature into the 110F+ range. As soon as you cross the line things start happening and if the BMS doesn't put a stop to it by turning the battery pack off, it's a very quick slide down the hill from there. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Larry la...@starlightsolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 03/17/2015 11:41 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org I am repairing and restoring a pair of poorly designed lithium-ion battery bank that suffered over discharge, damaging many cells. After cell replacement I need to perform a discharge test with a 10kW load to verify the remaining capacity. The battery voltage is 105 volts @ 100% SoC and 89.6 volts @ 0% I would like advice on how I can create an economical 10kW load. Water heating element? Wire wound resistors? Are there any GT inverters that will operate at these voltages? Thanks. -- Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
Hi: I cant put out anything which may show proprietary info, but here are a couple close up fragments of images of failure trials where the BMS system was not able to catch the issue before the event went out of bounds thermal. As you can see some kind of corrosive gas coated many surfaces inside the battery pack while reacting with and discoloring any aluminium which was in the near vicinity of the cells I definitely would not use any material other than metal or some other very chemical/heat/fire resistant materials in and around Lion cells and I'd vent the battery pack to the outdoors. I'm sure there will be many perfectly reliable and safe packs, but soon there will also be something like a melted laptop or cell phone on steroids as a typical solar system battery has about 3000X as much energy as the cell phone/laptop. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Ray Walters r...@solarray.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 03/17/2015 01:35 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi James; So couldn't Larry weld in rigid conduit fittings? Aren't they NPSM, or do I have that wrong? I suppose the Zinc plating would make a messier weld and possibly be poisonous Also to Chris Mason, I was not aware that load banks were available for rent. That sounds like a good option to consider. Do you have a recommendation on who rents those? 3rd response to Jarmo: do you have any pictures of the Li+ thermal issues? Are we talking structure fire potential, or just destruction of the batteries themselves? Is this another reason not to use plywood battery boxes? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 Note that water heater elements are NPSM (National Pipe Straight Mechanical) and not NPT. So you need that type of half coupling or bung to weld in. The vegi-oil people seem to have this sort of stuff as they build water heater elements into things. ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Looking for a Heart Interface Link2000
Hi: Much appreciated if anyone can help me chase down a working Heart Interface Link2000 If you know of a possible whereabouts of one, please reply off-line. Thanks JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters
Hi: It's all about cost versus benefit. The following goes through it in more detail. http://enphase.com/global/files/Enphase_White_Paper_Module_Rightsizing.pdf With large commercial systems, the best return on money invested is with 30% to 70% oversizing. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Dave Click davecl...@fsec.ucf.edu To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 02/10/2015 07:12 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Regarding the clipping, which the power electronics guys would rather I call power limiting... To be clear, Longer 100% production around noon (implied in that image that this is somehow beneficial) means this system could have produced more energy but didn't because the inverter was too small. Assuming similar efficiencies, a 300W micro-inverter clearly would have produced more energy on that day than the 250W inverter. I imagine that what you mean was that if you're locked into a certain ac limit here (either you can only use a 250W micro, or maybe your service conductors limit your ac rating) then yes, a higher dc/ac ratio may have more power limiting but will produce more energy at the expense of your kWh / kWdc yield (a consideration for some projects). Given that the ABB inverters have their highest efficiencies at the higher end of their power outputs, which is not where PV modules typically operate (unless you stick a 400W module on it), I'm curious whether a typical 280W module would actually produce more energy over a year with an Enphase 240W vs the ABB 300W in most locations. Over the full Enphase power range it's more efficient than the ABB: At ~100W dc input, Enphase is at about 96.4% efficient and the ABB 300W is at 95.8%. At ~250W input: Enphase 96.4%, ABB 96.1%. And yes, at 315W input: Enphase 76.2% steady-state, ABB 96.4%. It could go without saying (but I have momentum) that you should not spend $2000 on a larger inverter(s) that will help your array produce $200 more energy over its 25-year life. It's up to you to figure that out given your site conditions and as noted in the last thread that addressed this topic, weather data probably underestimates the benefit due to its averaging out most short-term edge-of-cloud effects. Anyway, maybe C250s would meet the OP's needs and they're actually the slightest bit more efficient than the standard 240W unit. That is, until you add the transformer since the output is 220-248V L-N. That presumably makes the ABB the efficiency winner, but hopefully the above is still useful. Sorry, no personal experience with any of the ABB/APS/C250 units. I probably should have opened with that to save you some time. DKC On 2015/2/10 13:05, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: One thing to keep in mind with clipping, (module over sizing), is that if a system has 10%-15% off clipping, that will not affect total annual energy harvest and depending on dust and temperature conditions will likely even improve it. Heres' a graph which shows the energy harvest graphically for a 250W module with a 250W inverter and a and 300W module with a 250W inverter. Please note the graph does not include any dust effects. To compensate for dust, the modules should always be of the order of 4% more powerful than the inverter, unless you plan on washing modules every month. Related to this, large commercial systems we have been supplying inverters to are 30-70% oversized as the sinking cost of modules makes the return on investment come out as maximized in that range of oversizing, JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 02/10/2015 06:51 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org That would be at the 120% rating, so by rule of thumb, OK. I have a ground mount that has a ration of 1.15% with M-190s (figuring 199 W
Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters
Hi: One thing to keep in mind with clipping, (module over sizing), is that if a system has 10%-15% off clipping, that will not affect total annual energy harvest and depending on dust and temperature conditions will likely even improve it. Heres' a graph which shows the energy harvest graphically for a 250W module with a 250W inverter and a and 300W module with a 250W inverter. Please note the graph does not include any dust effects. To compensate for dust, the modules should always be of the order of 4% more powerful than the inverter, unless you plan on washing modules every month. Related to this, large commercial systems we have been supplying inverters to are 30-70% oversized as the sinking cost of modules makes the return on investment come out as maximized in that range of oversizing, JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 02/10/2015 06:51 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org That would be at the 120% rating, so by rule of thumb, OK. I have a ground mount that has a ration of 1.15% with M-190s (figuring 199 W / inverter). It has quite a bit of clipping in the spring. It has optimized tilt for the location. A ballasted roof mount with a 10 or 15 degree tilt likely wouldn't have that issue. This system went in the spring of 2010, and has only had one M-190 failure out of 24, amazingly enough. At 10:22 AM 2/9/2015, you wrote: What do you typically get out of a 300 watt panel for production when you are grid tied? I know in theory (STC) it is a 300 watt module but we rarely if ever (except in very cold weather)see near that for an output. I use (as a general, 77 degrees F) design parameter, 77% for overall power production output output. I'm sure you would get a little clipping, but I guess a significant amount would depend on a number of variables on the site, time of the year, weather conditions, etc. Daryl Yeahif you're OK with a not insignificant amount of clipping going on. -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of penobscotso...@midmaine.com Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 2:33 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters Hey Jason, The M-250's work well with LG 300 watt (60 cell) modules. Daryl Hi Jason, The Enphase C250 Microinverters for three-phase commercial applications does work with 72 cell modules. On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com wrote: The ABB micros seem to be solid and easy to install. We have two sites with them with no issues. Unfortunately, the monitoring system sucks compared to Enphase and was far more difficult to set up. I really wish Enphase would come up with a good 72 cell option because we find ourselves competing with 300W modules occasionally, and consumers (irrationally) jump to the conclusion that bigger is better. [image: Logo-Sq-80.png] Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group (239) 491-8010 office (239) 410-4985 mobile Authorized Sales Agent for Fafco Solar [image: Fafco-Solar-Enphase-Logo.png] License CVC56701 On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Bill Hennessy b...@berkssolar.com wrote: Hi folks-- We're planning a micro inverter install using 300W 72 cell modules for an area with a fair amount of shading. The choices we've found are ABB micro 0.3 or APS YC500A. Any stories to tell about either of these or another suggestion? Thanks for your time. Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/mailli st.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org *Florida Solar Design Group is not an engineering
Re: [RE-wrenches] Low wattage 120vac to 24vdc transformer for LED's
Hi: For such a small amount of power you could consider using an energy limiting Class2 transformer as is/was used in old doorbells. You would have to put a bridge rectifier and bulk capacitor on the output to make DC, but that should be ok given the power levels. If you do this, make sure that the bridge rectifier and capacitor are physically very close to the transformer to reduce problems with diode reverse recovery losses which can stress the parts. Here's a link to Hammond transformers of that type, although they are no doubt available from many sources at most electrical supply houses. http://www.hammondmfg.com/ba.htm JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Dave d...@independentpowerllc.com To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 01/29/2015 10:58 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low wattage 120vac to 24vdc transformer for LED's Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org We are renovating a 25 yr old off grid house and one of things being done is to change some 24vDC circuits to 120vac. The only problem that I'm having is finding a low wattage 120vac to 24vdc transformer for a few strings of 24v LED night lights (a few watts each string) that are built into some nice hardwood trim in the bedrooms. I just tested the following device and found that it uses 29 Watts to power a 3W LED. Not an acceptable load for this house. It is labeled as LED Magnetic Transformer by National Specialty Lighting part # TR24L20DC-M20L24DC-AR Input: 120vac, Output 24vdc, Maximum 20W Is there anything else available that will do this job and use a lot less power than 29 Watts? Thanks, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 6048 power output fluctuating widely
Hi Chris: Keeping in mind Todd's comments I'm not sure how your system is set up, but if it has Schneider MPPT charge controllers, then it should be set up in enhanced sell mode. Enhanced sell mode coordinates the sell power so that it always matches the solar harvest power, moment by moment. Using that setting will also charge the battery with a three stage charging algorithm every morning while exporting any excess solar power available which is not needed for charging. Please contact me offline of you would like to go over the settings for this mode of operation. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: toddc...@finestplanet.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 01/24/2015 10:37 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 6048 power output fluctuating widely Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org im not sure how the brand-x inverters work, but my home system's gvfx3648 suffers from high line voltage, where often when selling at max, the line voltage at the inverter will creep up to the 130 vac limit. when this happens, the inverter doesn't cycle off and on as suggested below, but it actually throttles back on selling current to keep the voltage below the 130 vac limit. this raises the battery voltage until the charge controller throttles back on the incoming pv current to match. todd On Saturday, January 24, 2015 8:17am, Christopher Warfel cwar...@entech-engineering.com said: Thank you, I will see if that is the solution and get back to either way. Chris On 1/23/2015 3:39 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: From your description of the problem and the video, I suspect the problem is due to: 1. The inverter is exporting very near full power. 2. The grid voltage rises which at the same AC current results in larger export power flow above the inverters limit. 3. The inverter stops exporting due to reaching its power limit 4. The inverter again starts exporting. 5. Reaches power limit and stops. 6.etc... I.E. since the inverter is working close to its power limit on a grid with fluctuating voltage, it goes in and out of max power limit. One way to test if this is the cause is to reduce the Sell Amps so that you are not operating at the power limit of the inverter. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Christopher Warfel cwar...@entech-engineering.com To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 01/23/2015 12:07 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 6048 power output fluctuating widely Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org We installed a XW 6048 that has wide power output fluctuations over several seconds. Lights flicker, and the inverter squeals. It happens multiple times in a minute The inverter was replaced to no avail. I suspect the local utility's poor line maintenance. When the inverter begins to drop off line, the voltage sags from 123 to 117. This is still within normal parameters, so I don't understand why the inverter would begin to power down. Here is a youtube video of it if anyone has ever seen this before. Schneider has assisted us several times, but cannot find any reason for this happening as a result of their technology. http://youtu.be/EqMwv44p-lc http://youtu.be/ADaL-gEbj4w Thank you, Chris ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored
Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 6048 power output fluctuating widely
Hi: From your description of the problem and the video, I suspect the problem is due to: 1. The inverter is exporting very near full power. 2. The grid voltage rises which at the same AC current results in larger export power flow above the inverters limit. 3. The inverter stops exporting due to reaching its power limit 4. The inverter again starts exporting. 5. Reaches power limit and stops. 6.etc... I.E. since the inverter is working close to its power limit on a grid with fluctuating voltage, it goes in and out of max power limit. One way to test if this is the cause is to reduce the Sell Amps so that you are not operating at the power limit of the inverter. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Christopher Warfel cwar...@entech-engineering.com To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 01/23/2015 12:07 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 6048 power output fluctuating widely Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org We installed a XW 6048 that has wide power output fluctuations over several seconds. Lights flicker, and the inverter squeals. It happens multiple times in a minute The inverter was replaced to no avail. I suspect the local utility's poor line maintenance. When the inverter begins to drop off line, the voltage sags from 123 to 117. This is still within normal parameters, so I don't understand why the inverter would begin to power down. Here is a youtube video of it if anyone has ever seen this before. Schneider has assisted us several times, but cannot find any reason for this happening as a result of their technology. http://youtu.be/EqMwv44p-lc http://youtu.be/ADaL-gEbj4w Thank you, Chris ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question
Hi: This link takes you to a site in Romania so you (likely) wont be able to read the text, but it does have a lot of good pictures. This installer has been using XW since about 2007 and has a tons of experience. I like what he does with the DC wiring/busbars. The breakers are in the box below the inverters and charge controllers. http://customer.lpelectric.ro/doc/sibiu2/sibiu2_28kw_fotovoltaic.html JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 01/02/2015 05:18 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 4/0 copper is good for a 24V, 4000 W inverter. What is being used for multiple inverters? I've paralleled 4/0 into outback boxes using 2, 2 PVC conduits. It gets pretty messy trying to put 4 sets of 4/0s into enclosures and battery boxes (although I have worked on such systems). Does anyone have clean solutions for these systems? Thanks, Drake Some other things: If you keep the conduit less than 24 long, which is recommended anyway for main battery connections, the conduit fill requirements don't apply. (see exception: 310.15(B)3a2) Using table 310.15(B)16 yeilds 230 amps for 4/0 at 75 C. Then 240.6 lists 250 amp as the next standard size of OCPD which is allowed to be used by 240.4(B) So you can just justify 4/0. Further, many manufacturers (like Midnite) use the open air ampacity table: 310.15(B)17, since the cable is not in conduit and 4/0 cable at 75 C is rated to 360 amps. The Free Air interpretation is not completely substantiated in the code from my read of it though. Maybe someone more knowledgable could cite the chapter and verse that defines when the free air rating can and cannot be used. Also remember those breakers are 100% duty cycle rated, and that the inverter usually can't run any where close to 250 amps continuously. Bottomline is we've been using 4/0 with 250 amp breakers for almost 20 years, and I've never seen or heard of a problem. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/1/2015 7:23 PM, jay peltz wrote: Happy new year all. I have a question on wire sizing for the following. 250 amp breaker, in a UL enclosure ( say midnite or outback etc) conduit from battery box to enclosure I'm wondering how folks size this for ampacity not voltage drop. thanks jay peltz power ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette
Re: [RE-wrenches] Smappee anyone?
Hi: Haven't seen such before and don't have any experience with it, but personally I see this as a very cost effective and powerful approach to load/energy monitoring. With just the one set of sensors, (two if you have solar), you can gather a detailed load use and solar harvest profile. Regarding identifying load signatures, from what I can gather you wont need to tinker with it to get the data. It will recognize and log the load data, it just wont know what the various loads are called so they'll be labeled as LOAD1, LOAD2,etc. Looking to the future, I'd be surprised if you don't get firmware updates as their software engineers get better and better at load recognition. I like this one. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Kirk Herander k...@vtsolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 12/29/2014 09:20 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Smappee anyone? Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Happy Holidays, http://blog.stefangrosjean.net/2014/08/30/find-my-appliances/ Here is a link to the inventor’s website which explains the theory behind the “Smappee” energy monitor; i.e. that each load has its own unique electrical use signature “DNA” and that (over time) Smappee can identify such signatures and track them. This without the need for plug-in modules or individual current transformers on each load, which we have done in the past. This originated in Europe, I believe the Netherlands, and was launched in the US 12/10/14. They have both a droid and iphone app, I found no reviews for the iphone. Interesting in concept, but if you read the inventor’s blog it sounds like it will take time for the monitor to actually sort out multiple load signatures. And then the homeowner has to label them as furnace, fridge, etc., for the monitor only knows a particular signature is unique, it can’t identify an appliance on its own. So it sounds to me a lot of potential tinkering would be required for it to ultimately be useful. Definitely not a plug-and-play item. Anyone perchance have experience with this? Thanks. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] module testing
Hi: The cTUVus mark is accredited by OSHA (NRTL), and considered equivalent to UL and CSA by city , county and state regulators throughout the US. The thing to check is that the applicable cTUVus standard was applied. In this case the test needs to be the cTUVus equivalent of UL1703. Here's a link to the TUV doc which outlines the above. http://www.tuv.com/media/usa/nabrochures/Product_Safety.pdf As always, the AJH has the final say. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Marco Mangelsdorf ma...@pvthawaii.com To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 12/22/2014 09:15 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] module testing Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hola. Does anyone know….For the U.S. market, is TUV certification to UL 1703 considered adequate? I’ve always thought that modules sold in the U.S. had to have actual testing and certification by U.L. directly or another nationally recognized test lab. Thanks, marco __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum System - Discharged Battery Bank
Hi: This cell reversal ability of lead acid batteries gives good perspective on just how much you can mistreat them and beat them up and still have an expectation of recovery. Lithium cells on the other hand without a full range of protections would have long since filled the home with all kinds of interesting high temperature thermal events, gaseous compounds and chemicals, and there is no way you could get that magic smoke back into them. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Corey Shalanski cshalan...@joule-energy.com To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 12/19/2014 06:48 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum System - Discharged Battery Bank Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Update on my investigation: I visited the customer's house yesterday to set up a pulse charger. Much to my surprise the three batteries that originally registered negative voltage are now reading positive. Does this make sense - are batteries able to shift between negative and positive voltages at such a low charge level? I do not see any evidence of distorted cases. On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 7:58 AM, j...@asis.com wrote: I second tump. Most likely a bad /cell battery took out the system. As these are VRLA batteries, I'm curious do,the cases look damaged such as expanded or sunk in? Jay Peltz power __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum System - Discharged Battery Bank
Hi: Figuring out what happened after the fact is a very big challenge and always involves a lot of cost for both time invested and ultimately the new batteries. Things can be made a lot simpler, even preventative, by using a small battery monitor which remembers battery V, I, SOC, etc for up to 10 years. If you want more info, please contact me off-line. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Corey Shalanski cshalan...@joule-energy.com To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 12/16/2014 06:27 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum System - Discharged Battery Bank Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Wrenches, I visited a customer today whose grid-tied battery backup system suffered some sort of catastrophic failure, and now I'm trying to play detective to figure out what happened and whose equipment/design is to blame. Here is what I know so far: - System is ac-coupled with a Sunny Boy 7000 (7.85kW array), Magnum MS4448PAE (x2), 3 strings of 4 12v batts (705Ah total) - Site visit was triggered by the Sunny Boy registering zero output via online monitoring. - SPST Solid state relay installed on Sunny Boy output, controlled via Magnum router, serves as secondary overcharge protection to Magnum's frequency shift feature. Technician who initially responded claims he measured 240v across the relay's terminals - relay manufacturer claims this is 100% impossible. We removed the relay from the circuit, and the Sunny Boy is again operational. - On arrival I found the Magnum display showing a Low Battery Charge message with the bank measuring ~4Vdc. The individual batteries were in various states of charge, ranging from high of 6.3v to low of -2.6v. These measurements were taken at rest, all battery cables disconnected, and yes three of the batts were registering a negative voltage. - Customer reports that he was not aware of any recent prolonged power outages. The three potential suspects would seem to be: - SS relay: The customer is convinced that this is the weak link in the system and somehow triggered this failure. I am not so convinced but would be interested to hear recommendations for properly testing its functionality. - Magnum equipment: Since there is low-battery-cutout protection, why would this feature not have activated and prevented the batteries from draining so low? - Batteries: I am not very familiar with modes of failure, but our distributor suggested that an internal short could be a possibility - what might have triggered this? Clearly I am fishing for potential leads here, so any suggestions are welcome. Thanks! -- Corey Shalanski Joule Energy New Orleans, LA ᐧ __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Programmable Battery Charger
Hi: I'm enjoying learning many new ways of looking at things and of practical solutions on this forum. In that spirit, the only thing I would add to this discussion is that the power factor as seen by the AC source will be very poor. In that regard, the larger the caps, the more stable the DC voltage, but the poorer the PF. This will show up as much lower charging efficiency due to the way in which AC current is drawn by the bridge rectifier/capacitor circuit. Here's an actual graph of how a bridge rectifier connected to a capacitor draws AC current, The graph is from my past life a couple of decades ago back when I was studying. It's not a conventional phase-shift PF problem, but rather a form factor PF problem. It shows the current drawn by a 13 PC monitor of that era, before PF correction was mandated for all new products. In this example the 'crest factor', (peak current as measured versus what it could have been if the current was drawn throughout the AC pulses, was about 4x). Depending on the size of capacitor, it can be as high as 7x. The practical effect on the wires and devices including the diodes and charge controller, is that a lot of heat is generated in their power components. The source of the energy for that heat is the AC source and in cases where the AC source is a generator that translates to much higher fuel consumption, (in some cases over 30% more). Out of my tests back then, I also discovered one practical recommendation. If you are using bridge rectifiers connected to capacitors, do not have any length of wire and in particular no loop area in the wires between the bridge rectifier and capacitors. Having wire/loop area introduces inductance into the circuit which behaves somewhat like an ignition coil due to the high speed reverse recovery period of the diodes; and this happens four times every AC cycle. Given the right conditions the voltage spikes caused by that inductance/ignition coil like effect will make short work of the diodes and other components which are on the circuit. The voltage spikes wont be a problem if the bridge rectifier is as close as possible to the capacitors, but due to reverse recovery effect, you'll still be stressing the parts and heating wires. In my opinion, its ok to do this, but I wouldn't push power levels to anywhere near the limits of components and devices. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: b...@midnitesolar.com b...@midnitesolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 12/16/2014 11:16 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Programmable Battery Charger Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Larry, Pitfalls ? The biggest pitfall I would say is if you have a VERY stiff grid. If your Voc is say, 170V DC and the CC current limits it output at say, 169 V DC, they you are going to need to add an input power resistor of a couple Ohms to help cushion the input to be more like a PV module. A lot of times, the grid is not nearly this bad, especially generators. Also, If you are going to do this, I would NOT use Solar mode but instead try Hydro mode set to Manual MPP voltage. First start the MPPV at something just less than Voc or maybe, say, 160 VDC. Then, from main STATUS screen, you can adjust the input voltage up and down by pressing the Soft-Right or Soft-Left keys respectfully. (upper right and upper left keys). Then you can manually get a feel for what it should be set for. The Classic 200 is the only CC of ours that I would use. The 250 would work but the 200 is much more suited. I wish there were a real charger that one could buy that was isolated, and we have never really advocated MPPT charge controllers for this but in a pinch, they always seem to work find. Never did add a DT mode (after Daryl Thayer of course), but this hydro mode seems to work OK. If you want to let it sweep but setting it to 3 minutes (or higher) that will also work. If you do that, set the minimum input voltage. Something like 140V or so will keep it from dropping the input voltage too low and either bogging down the input source and the rectifier bridge (especially generators) You can also set the INPUT current limit in the LIMITS menu. This was for hydro in particular. Either limit can help reduce Isc or bogging down issues. The other pitfall is that it is NOT galvanically isolated so you should be very careful. We use an X240 equivalent transformer to keep the batteries going in our burn in rack
Re: [RE-wrenches] Generac QT series
Hi: The Generac QT02224GNAX ships as a three-phase 120/208 VAC. I believe the Magnum is a 120/240 VAC. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Mac Lewis maclew...@gmail.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 12/15/2014 05:52 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac QT series Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hello wrenches, We have a newly installed system that has a 22 kW Generac Quiet Source QT02224GNAX with a Magnum MS4448-PAE. When we start the generator, the Magnum's internal transformer temperature climbs to overtemp (240F) within a 2 minutes. The batteries are being floated at the time, and haven't seen more than 5A coming out of the generator. We swapped the Magnum out, and we have the exact same issue. We then got a job-site gas generator 6500W and ran it. No problem whatsoever. The problem appears to be with the Generac, or with the interaction between the Generac the Magnum. I didn't have a scope on site but the fluke multimeter doesn't detect anything wrong with the voltage or frequency coming from the Generac. Has anyone had issues with the Generac QT? Anyone paired one with a Magnum PAE before? I want to get my scope up there and look for triplen harmonics, but I'm not sure how to filter these out. Any references on how to effectively do that is appreciated. Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling SolarEdge
Hi: In Europe, (CE products), yes. In other parts of the world not necessarily yes, but rather depends on the state of the adopted regulations. Beyond that, I would expect that all new inverters in development will have it. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: jay peltz j...@asis.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 12/10/2014 10:13 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling SolarEdge Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Question Is the Hz shift/ power reduction included/required in all battery less inverters? Thanks Jay Peltz power __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] 120% rule
Hi: I'm also not associated with the manufacturer and am not interested in promoting the, but do get lots of questions about these kinds of things and want to make sure I really understand what it is they are offering From what I can tell it's a special dual breaker which replaces the main panel breaker and provides contacts for the PV generated AC in such a way that panel busbar ratings are not a factor. Does anyone know if that's true? Here's a link to a wiring layout that the manufacturer has, http://www.qfe002.com/alternative-energy-solutions/ JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Jerry Shafer jerrysgarag...@gmail.com To: RE-wrenches RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 12/02/2014 09:19 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120% rule Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org I have seen a lot of talk about the meter main and solar breakers and what the 120% rule is intended for. I have seen a product at SPI this year and as I am not pushing this product or indorsing it, it may be of value to some of you that are dealing with the issue of system size vs meter main check out B3 bypass its a breaker with internal bypass built in and does not connect in to the buss. Jerry NABCEP __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Appliances for off-grid home
Hi: This site gives good reviews. http://dishwasher-review.toptenreviews.com/ JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Dave d...@independentpowerllc.com To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 12/01/2014 12:34 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Appliances for off-grid home Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org I'm looking for a recommendation for an efficient dishwasher to be powered by an OutBack inverter. Also, I need to buy another LP gas range for off-grid use. I have been using the Peerless-Premier line because they could be ordered without the electric glow bar in the oven. Are they any more choices these days in LP ranges? Thanks, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] propane generator
Hi: This paper has info about the relative fuel consumption of little gas, diesel and propane generators and the advantage of using inverters with generators. http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/sites/www.nrcan.gc.ca/files/canmetenergy/files/pubs/2007-148e.pdf JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: jay peltz j...@asis.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 11/20/2014 10:31 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] propane generator Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi All, I know this has been discussed before. I can't seem to find the threads about propane generators. I've got a client with a Kohler 8.5 that is having problems. Hes looking for good quality options other than the Kohler. thanks in advance, jay ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Suspect MX 60
Hi: This may not be the problem, but I wanted to bring it up as I have heard of a few cases of battery boiling issues with various charge controllers and want to suggest a possible cause. I'll do this point form. It's easier to describe it that way: 1. Solar charge controllers are programmed to go to bulk charge in the morning. 2. The intensity of the sunlight starts off low in the morning and depending on the weather during the day, the intensity can reach any level between virtually 0% and 100%. 3. The exit criteria for bulk is that the battery voltage reaches the Vbulk/abs volts setting or a bulk/abs timer times out. 4. If the sunlight conditions are just right to keep the charging voltage just below the Vbulk/abs setpoint, the exit from bulk/abs will be the timer. 5. Bulk/Abs timers are usually set for rather a long time, many hours is not uncommon. 6. Given the above, it is possible that the battery stays at gassing voltages for many hours every day at certain times of the year when the sunlight intensity is just right to support that. 7. As a consequence the boiling problem will show up only at particular sites, particular battery/charge controller sizes and particular times of year. Again, I am not suggesting that this is necessarily the cause of battery boiling in systems with solar charge controllers, but it could be a reason. 2nd ps. All manufacturers do precise battery voltage/current measurements on the bench with a wide variety of conditions, but we will never be able to simulate the 1000's of conditions that happen on the 1000's of installs out there. With that in mind, on-site battery voltage/current data logging is a very powerful tool when investigating these kinds of issues. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 11/18/2014 09:15 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Suspect MX 60 Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hello Wrenches, An MX 60 boiled a 24 volt bank of 4 Trojan L-16 batteries last summer. The batteries all checked out to be in good shape. It is not totally clear that the CC was not set to auto equalize, but the EQ voltage was only set at 31.0 V. The battery bank has been replaced by 8 Full River L-16 AGM batteries. The parameters have all been reset for AGM with EQ disabled. The homeowners are concerned that the charge control may not work, and damage their new battery bank. If there is a problem with the CC, it is very intermittent. Has anyone ever seen an intermittent MX 60? Outback tech support says if we send it in they will update the firmware for $90, and do a 24 hour bench test. It appears that the firmware update will not do anything useful for this off grid system. There are no new boards available for this unit. I'm not sure if the bench test will show up an intermittent problem. Has anyone had this situation before? Would it be better to: Replace the CC Send the CC to Outback Do nothing Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Venting (WAS Passive Battery Venting)
Hi: I came across this document related to battery venting and calculation of the required vent hole size which was put out by Sonnenschein, It's based on the EN 50272-2 standard. Perhaps it can be used to provide some guidance for discussion with AHJ's http://www.sonnenschein.org/PDF%20files/BatteryRoomVentilationInstallation.PDF JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 11/03/2014 02:36 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Venting (WAS Passive Battery Venting) Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Drake, No, and unless and until it comes up again, they won't. My drama with them in January led to a draw: I put in a vent fan and they tabled the issue without broader resolution and approved the final inspection so the clients could move in. Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 11/2/2014 10:08 AM, Drake wrote: Allan, Has New Mexico ever come to conclusions concerning venting sealed batteries to the outside, or is it still in limbo? Thanks, Drake __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Aqueous Hybrid Ion batteries
Hi: We looked at these batteries for use with our product. One other thing to consider is that they have quite a high operating impedance. If there are large peak loads, this makes a minimum battery bank physically quite large. No doubt the technology will improve though. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: b...@midnitesolar.com b...@midnitesolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 11/10/2014 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Aqueous Hybrid Ion batteries Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Yes, that voltage range is a problem but it has evidently been improving. It used to be much worse. We will see. boB On 11/10/2014 11:37 AM, Baxter, Gary wrote: We have been asked to lower the DC input voltage to take advantage of these batteries. What engineering is saying is we can't go low enough on the low side and still produce peak AC voltage. Seems these batteries are catching on might need to revisit this again. Gary Baxter Product Manager Magnum/Dimensions On Nov 10, 2014, at 11:29 AM, b...@midnitesolar.com b...@midnitesolar.com wrote: Aquion's technology is evidently getting better and better from what we have seen. Ryan Stankevitz from MidNite may be able tell you more if you would like an external opinion boB On 11/10/2014 9:10 AM, Dave wrote: Wrenches, I have a customer with a grid-tied w battery back-up (formerly off-grid) with failing LA batteries. He found these batteries on the web and asked me to check them out. Anyone out there know anything about this AHI technology and or this company, Aquion Energy? http://www.aquionenergy.com/microgrid-energy-storage Thanks, David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Searchable, notable Code
Hi: What I've learned is that with such a large company as this, there are very likely different practices and policies in the multitude of business groups throughout various countries. One thing that has happened, which I like, is that we have been given more autonomy for the Solar Group and I know that many manuals are not protected, although I haven't gone through all of them. I'll pass on your suggestion to keep all our manuals unprotected to the tech writing team. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: William Miller will...@millersolar.com To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 11/05/2014 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Searchable, notable Code Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Jarmo: Adding notes is half of the equation. If the document is many pages in length (the XW AGS manual is 120 pages) you need to be able to add bookmarks. You cannot do this with a protected manual. I prefer that manufacturers not protect PDFs. You cannot extract pages from (for a permit application, for example) or bookmark protected PDFS. I noted that the XW AGS manual is not protected. Thank you for that. What is Schneider’s current policy on protecting PDFs? William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 12:46 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Searchable, notable Code Hi: I use a PDF writer to put in edit comments. Here is an example I made out of a page in one of manuals, JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: William Miller will...@millersolar.com To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 11/05/2014 12:12 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Searchable, notable Code Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Friends: We have been seeing a lot of good commentary here on code questions. I need to be able to access these in the future at a time when I may not have thought about a specific issue for some time and need to be able to get my head around a concept in a hurry. Searching the Wrenches archives is not an efficient method. I need the information right in my copy of the code, at the exact location it applies. My first electronic (PDF) version of the code from NFPA came packaged in a product called “Folio Viewer.” This was a great product that allowed advanced search functions and sophisticated bookmarking. Unfortunately this program is no longer available, a real shame. We all have a need to markup our own versions of the code. Currently I “break” the electronic protection of the PDF version using an on-line service (http://online2pdf.com/). I can then create my own bookmarks, margin notes and links. I add comments like those below using the ‘sticky notes’ function of Acrobat Pro and bookmark oft-used passages. I also create links to cited sections, making it easier to navigate. Does anyone else have suggestions as to how to retain notes and pertinent comments within the code? William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Rebekah Hren Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 9:55 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Code reference request Hi Dana, If you bond the the ac and dc grounding systems using the optional method outlined in 690.47(C)(3), then the AC EGC and the DC GEC can be the same conductor (regardless of TL or not). And this section of the Code specifically allows the DC GEC to be sized per 250.122 for ungrounded systems (and not larger than the ungrounded conductors). So in some ways this is an end run around the GEC question. However, if the inverter manual says to follow 250.166 sizing requirements, then I'd think 110.3(B) is going to take precedence for this installation and you don't have much choice except to have a minimum 8AWG DC GEC conductor
Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Technical Support
Hi: The Solar Group of Schneider now has our own website, under our direct control, where we can effectively manage solar product info. On the website you will find FAQ's and info on how to contact Tech Support as well as all the other info about our products. Here's the Tech Support Contact info and FAQ link for our website. http://solar.schneider-electric.com/faq/ I'm personally disappointed that you have had trouble getting through to tech support. Please let me know if you used the contact phone and e-mail above and let me know when the tardy/poor support occurred. I will pass the message that we need to do better to the right people. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: penobscotso...@midmaine.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 10/09/2014 11:23 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Technical Support Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Does anyone have a number for Schneider's solar tech support? It seems impossible to reach people there with a direct question, without having to send an email and wait by a phonesomething it is hard to do and make money at the same time. Thanks, Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PV installer Penobscot Solar Design ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island sending power to the generator??
Hi: It is possible for a grid tie inverter connected to the output of a battery based inverter to export energy through the battery based inverter to the AC source. It doesn't matter is that source is the grid, a generator, or any other AC power source. Indeed, due to this common AC bus wiring structure inside the battery based inverter, there is no way for the battery based inverter to prevent this, other than disconnecting. Here's a line diagram of a typical battery based inverter with a grid tie inverter connected at its output. In the diagram you can see that, 1. All the AC sources and loads are on a common AC bus consisting of only copper wires and a couple of disconnects. . This structure of true of all of the grid, that is, there are multitude of AC sources and loads all on a common grid of copper wires and disconnects. 2. The only thing that the battery based inverter can do is, in charge mode, behave like a load as it draws power from the AC bus and charges the batteries or in invert mode adjust its AC output voltage so that it becomes a parallel AC source with the generator and is able to supply power to the AC bus concurrently with the generator. Here's where it gets interesting, 3. If the battery based inverter is in invert mode and a source such as a gird tie inverter raises the AC voltage on the AC bus, then power will flow in reverse through the transformer and the batteries will be charged using the grid tie inverter power as the source. This is AC coupled charging. 4. At the same time, if the grid tie inverter raises its output voltage above that of the generator, power will flow into the generator. The diesel motor in the generator will in this case be under a positive load, which is the same condition as a truck using engine brakes. 5. Unfortunately most generators are not built to operate as an engine brake, so bad things can happen to them. For this reason, the control algorithm in the battery based inverter will disconnect from the generator to protect it from damage. There is more details to this in regards how many residential loads are on, the quality of the generator output power waveform, methods to control the AC coupled charging, etc., but the above is the essence of how it works. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: William Miller will...@millersolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 09/17/2014 10:20 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island sending power to the generator?? Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Colleagues: I was invited to troubleshoot a Sunny Island system. What I found is a Sunny Island mini-grid system behaving oddly. The generator, when started with the SI, would run for a few minutes and then shut down. Further investigation revealed that the SIs were indicating that the inverters were sending lots of power back to the generator, even with the Sunny Boy turned off. I don’t know if this was actually the case, nor can I grasp how this could happen. The system was programmed as a PV/Gen only system. Fortunately I reached an off-grid tech at SMA and we were able to resolve the issue. I am not sure what we did but I suspect that simply rebooting the Sunny Islands was the cure. I post this in case any of you experience this problem and could benefit from my experience. Also, I want to understand this better. Could it be true that the inverters could send power to the generator? I know the circuitry is there to sell to AC2, which is how this system would work as a true grid-interactive system, but how did it get triggered? Was it battery-selling to the generator? I welcome any comments. What I am starting to think is that the Sunny Island system, like any feature rich system, is complicated and has the potential to be less reliable than simpler systems. On the plus side I could also think of these systems as job security for the knowledgeable technician. Sincerely, William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4
Hi: I understand from your e-mail that the EV DIY industry has been successfully using a Lion pack with minimal monitoring/battery management and perhaps the packs will continue to work out. However, a relatively small number of systems do not validate the safety and reliability of a solution. Over the last decade or so, the biggest application of series connected Lion cells has been in laptops. From that it has been learned that battery management is needed for reliable, long life and safe operation. Indeed, to meet that need all the major semiconductor manufacturers have designed a multitude of dedicated battery management chips. Here for example are links to some of the Texas Instruments offer and its easy to find much more from any number of manufacturers. http://focus.ti.com/download/trng/docs/seminar/Topic%202%20-%20Battery%20Cell%20Balancing%20-%20What%20to%20Balance%20and%20How.pdf http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slaa478/slaa478.pdf http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt322/slyt322.pdf http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slua463/slua463.pdf http://liionbms.com/php/about_us.php The specifics of how much and how complex the monitoring should be could be debated, but as rule the key elements are precise voltage monitoring and regulation, cell balancing, temperature sensing and for large banks over current protection. Indeed, we have found these functions in all the Lion battery packs which we have so far evaluated. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 09/16/2014 10:14 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Jarmo, I must say I disagree with most of what you have said. In the EV DIY industry, there are a growing number of conversions using LFP battery banks without any BMS or EMS at all. These pioneers are risking there multi-thousand banks because they have learned something about these cells. They will stay in balance and perform perfectly as long as they prevent over and under voltage or charging a frozen battery with high current. My reply numbers correlate to yours: 1. I agree for most customers a BMS is necessary. Disagree: The battery systems (with BMS) that I sell do not regulate cell voltages during charge or discharge. They only adjust voltage after the cells reach 3.55 Vpc. However, at that 3.55 Vpc, I have terminated charge and entered a float/maintenance charge. On my personal battery bank, 24 cells, I have charged and discharged daily since May. My cell voltages still only vary by 0.02 volts per cell. Disagree: There is no temperature adjustment for voltage during charge or discharge. All temperature compensation circuits are removed from the RE equipment per manufacturers specifications. Disagree: We provide a continuous float voltage per manufacturer specifications. A float voltage can keep the battery at any SoC. I program for 90%. Our CPU provides protection for over current BUT that will likely never happen because the cells can be charged and discharged up to 10C and continuously at 3C! 2. Disagree: No need to limit inverter current as the battery can produce 10C. 3. Disagree: Ditto above. 4. Disagree: No need to limit inverter charge current because of the 10C capability. 5. I agree that for most consumers a BMS is required. So far we install the BMS provided by the manufacturer on every system. I will be installing systems without BMS in the future but openly for select customers. I have not found that LFP batteries are “amazingly sensitive”. I have discharged cells past 100% DoD, in fact as low as 0.35 Vpc, and recharged without any harm. I have started very complex loads like air conditioners with repeatable success from small battery banks. While I do not recommend this, I believe there is a robustness with modern LFP cells. The benefits of LFP batteries are many. Each year I recycle between 30,000 and 40,000 pounds of lead acid batteries. MOST of them are damaged by the consumer deficit charging them. I consider this to be a very unfavorable aspect of lead acid when compared to LFP batteries that never need to be fully charged or equalized or watered. One thing that will damage LFP batteries is if a cell in a series string is ever discharged below 0 volts, it will take on reverse polarity and is usually not recoverable. But, you can simple replace it and balance it with the other cells. I
Re: [RE-wrenches] Max AC coupling backfeed?
Hi:
When we developed the AC coupling capability of the XW's we of course
looked at what happens when the AC coupled power is larger than the XW
power.
As William points out as long as the loads are larger than what the AC
coupled inverter can supply, then there is no problem. However, this only
works if the loads are consistently larger. A load such as a pump or
heater will not meet this requirement if it switches off as it cycles in
normal operation.
If a large load falls off during AC coupling, then whatever power is being
produced by the AC coupled inverter above any used by remaining AC loads
will within one AC cycle show up as a charging current to the battery.
Depending on the particulars, this abrupt and immediate increase in
charging current can cause an overload shutdown of the inverter/charger.
For this reason we do not support AC coupling in systems which have a grid
tie inverter with a power output larger than the inverter charger.
Having said that, engineering is currently working on improvements to AC
coupled charging operation, so the situation may change.
JARMO
_
Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA |
Training Development Specialist - Senior
Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291
Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com
| Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1
*** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
From:
William Korthof wkort...@gmail.com
To:
RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org,
Date:
09/14/2014 09:17 AM
Subject:
Re: [RE-wrenches] Max AC coupling backfeed?
Sent by:
RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
I've successfully operated isolated temporary installations where the
ac-coupled inverter output significantly exceeds the battery-backup
inverter nameplate rating. Obviously there has to be enough firm AC load
to absorb at least the portion of the AC coupled output that exceeds the
grid tie inverter capacity.
Hypothetical example:
(3) Power One 6 kW 240 output grid-tie inverters with 7.5 kW of PV modules
each.
(2) Schneider XW6048 battery backup inverters
Suppose the supported AC load consisted of a mix of refrigeration and
other heavy loads with minimum demand during sunny hours of 6 kW.
Or suppose the solar array consisted of modules on steep 45 degree
East/West roof surfaces...
/wk
On Sep 14, 2014, at 8:55 AM, Tump t...@swnl.net wrote:
All, I am wondering what the max AC Coupled back feed into an OBGTVX 3648
might be. I have installed a 4.9 STC array into a SMA TL5k inverter and
the customer presently has an single OB GTVX with a T240 into a Eback up
load panel. I would like to know if there are any limitations in this type
of configuration using an AC coupling situation to operate during a grid
failure.
Thoughts please.
t...@swnl.net www.SWNL.net
Solarwinds Northernlights
Serving Mid Coast Maine Northern California
207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401
Blair TUMP May
MAINE'S CHARTER
NABCEPCertified PV Installer
MAINE'S CHARTER
Trace Xantrex Certified Dealer / Installer
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Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4
Hi: We've done some testing and operation of Lion battery banks in the 10 kWh range with our inverter chargers and so far the most important findings are: 1. The battery pack must have its own battery management system to: a. regulate the individual cell voltages during charge and discharge b. balance the cell voltages during charge and discharge c. adjust cell charging voltages due to temperature variations d. not provide a continuous float voltage to the battery bank d. provide a built in safety cutoff disconnect, which turns off the current if for any reason either the charge or discharge current is too high. A series string of Lion cells, without the battery management system functions above is very likely to result in damaged cells or worse. The most likely mechanism which ultimately causes damage is individual cell temperature or cell to cell voltage imbalance. 2. The inverter system must be designed so that the inverter never draws so much current that the current limit circuit in the battery bank is triggered. 3. It may be necessary to adjust the current limit circuit as they typically respond within milli-seconds and may be triggered on simple power up as the inverter cap bank charges up. 4. When working with Lion, the inverter/charger should be configured so that it is a simple current limited voltage source when in charge mode. The built in battery management system should take care of the required charge cycle operation. 5. Whether the pack is LiFePO4, Lion polymer or other does not appear to be as important as a having a reputable brand and more importantly a well designed built in battery management system. The short version is that lead acid cells are amazingly forgiving with regards charging and discharging voltages, currents and temperatures. Lion cells on the other hand are amazingly sensitive and going out of bounds on any of these can and will cause irreparable damage. Given the sensitivity, it doesn't make sense to take on responsibility for Lion battery management. Management of that sensitivity and responsibility is best left to the battery bank manufacturer. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: William Miller will...@millersolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 09/15/2014 04:27 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Wrenches: Does anyone have any experience with Lithium Ferrous Phosphate cells? What are your experiences? I am looking at an installation tomorrow and would like some input. Thanks in advance. William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Xanthrax XW BTS
Hi: Sorry to hear you had such trouble with the XW. Yes, the battery monitor can be used with battery based system. The monitoring and logging is done in its own internal memory. Here's a link to the user docs, http://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/conext-battery-monitor/ JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: frenergy frene...@psln.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 09/12/2014 05:56 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xanthrax XW BTS Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Wrenches, I just replaced a failed XW. is the XW BTS compatible with an FM60? Thanks in advance, Bill __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Xanthrax XW BTS
Hi: It was pointed out to me that I misread the question about the XW BTS. No, the XW BTS will not work with the FM60. My apologies to everyone, I will read e-mails more carefully in the future. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 09/12/2014 08:56 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xanthrax XW BTS Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi: Sorry to hear you had such trouble with the XW. Yes, the battery monitor can be used with battery based system. The monitoring and logging is done in its own internal memory. Here's a link to the user docs, http://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/conext-battery-monitor/ JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: frenergy frene...@psln.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 09/12/2014 05:56 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xanthrax XW BTS Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Wrenches, I just replaced a failed XW. is the XW BTS compatible with an FM60? Thanks in advance, Bill __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Cooler Modules
Hi: I went to do some training at a large utility scale site, (22MW) in Imperial Valley California a few years ago and was curious about how hot the modules were. So, I touched the back side of loaded and unloaded modules. The loaded modules were cooler. Not what I expected. I thought the current flow of 9A would cause heating, but on further thought from a physics point of view it makes sense. Electrons carry 60% of the heat flow in metals which removes some heat and the cells are also converting and thereby removing about 15% of the solar energy from the cells. https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Slab+City,+CA+92233,+USA/@33.2450229,-115.4978262,1395m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x80d0b20527ca5ebf:0xa7f292448cbd1988 JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Mark Frye ma...@berkeleysolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 09/10/2014 08:43 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cooler Modules Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Folks, Two identical PV modules are mount in an identical fashion and exposed to identical irradiance. One module is open circuit. The other is connected to a load and producing power. Is there a difference in the temperature of the two modules? If so, which one is cooler? Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
