Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics

[Kirk Bailey via RE-wrenches]

The rumor I've heard is EG4 purchased them.

Kirk Bailey
www.abundantsolar.com


On Saturday, May 18, 2024, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> All my sites are currently down.
>
> Not related but I tried to call tech support yesterday during business
> hours and got message saying thank you for calling Outback Sales leave a
> message.
>
> I do hope they are just in transition but I got a bad feeling about this.
> I hope I am wrong.
>
> Has anyone heard for sure who bought them? I know they were bought from
> talking to tech support but that is all I know and the Internet has 0 info
> on a recent sale.
>
> On Sat, May 18, 2024, 6:48 AM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Mine all went down yesterday at noon MDT. I wonder if this has to do with
>> the sale of Outback?
>>
>> Dan Fink
>> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
>> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
>> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
>> NABCEP PV Associate
>> d anbo...@gmail.com
>> 970-672-4342
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 10:17 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Friends:
>>>
>>> 100% of our Optics sites are down since 11 AM yesterday. Is it just us?
>>>
>>> William Miller
>>> Miller Solar.com
>>> 805-438-5600
>>> www.millersolar.com
>>>
>>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Kirk Bailey via RE-wrenches]

Dave,

I took a quick look at the Discover AES battery specifications you
linked to and didn't find an entry for how much power the BMS uses
when the battery is turned ON, but doing nothing?  In my experience
the Fortress eFlex BMS uses on the order of 12-15 W, and it would be
interesting to know how the AES compares.  The absence of a BMS is a
lead acid advantage for some remote applications.

Thanks,

Kirk Bailey
www.abundantsolar.com

On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 3:12 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
RE-wrenches  wrote:
>
> Howie, I think you should also look again at the Discover rack mount system 
> in the link below. Nice 75 year old company that made it's name on Locomotive 
> batteries. Their prices are way down around 14 K for 30Kwh with heaters. If 
> you have not looked at Lynk2 their gateway closed loop into SMA, Schneider, 
> Solark, Morningstar and a few others you should.
>
> The only problems I have with Schneider are pretty easy and get resolved 
> because I only use them and take all of the training. Conext Insight is a 
> home run for my clients. Schneider also hired me to test their first closed 
> loop system with LG back in 2017 and it still is working fine.
>
> https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount
>
>
>
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
>   https://offgridsolar1.com/
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
>
>
> On 2024-02-16 2:02 pm, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer 
> oriented support department that we could expect better service from them. We 
> had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months. Lots and 
> lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a BMS or 
> replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are going to 
> remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for them. Maybe 
> donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover pairings in closed 
> loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, 
> despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but 
> we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, 
> there have been some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for 
> offgrid. I just had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro 
> and he said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank 
> and then ten years would pass before hearing from the client when it was time 
> for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over 
> the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment quality and then the 
> switch to Li are costing us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for 
> our clients. Rant Over
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and 
> batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away from 
> EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested last 
> June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not real 
> serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+ Boston 
> this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter is, for 
> all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both physical layout 
> as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience with the Envy 
> (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to compare it to the 
> Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet, except that the font on 
> the screen is quite small and the opening screen is not as intuitive as the 
> Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing myself more to the Envy 
> (and/or the EG4).
>
> My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 inverters 
> installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take on their 
> functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of support? Also, 
> what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI batteries? I'm not 
> unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress eVault Max battery, but 
> there are some attractive things about the Envy and potentially the EG4 18k, 
> and the price point and seemingly smart configuration of the EG4 LLI 
> batteries are certainly eye-catching.
>
> I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and 
> inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the mismatching 
> firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues between the 2 
> components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units (i.e. Sonen, 
> Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile at the moment. 
> If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it with a different 
> brand without having to replace th

Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system

[Kirk Bailey via RE-wrenches]

William,

 I agree that AC coupled input power can't be "directly" regulated by
the battery inverter, but it *can* be indirectly regulated using techniques
such as telling the downstream PV inverter(s) to back off via a
frequency-watt change, or turning on a diversion load, or worst case simply
shutting off the battery inverter AC output connected to the PV inverters
(so-called bang-bang control).  However, I thought the battery charging
parameters were part of the equation when the inverter is making the
decision about what to do if the batteries are nearly full?

And in my case, with the SI master set to EXT-BMS (most recent
firmware), the battery parameters *could* be set and appeared to make a
difference in operation.  My (possibly incorrect!), assumption was that the
closed loop communication was primarily for SOC and fault conditions.  If
there is any documentation for what the closed loop communication consists
of that would be really interesting!

Cheers,

Kirk Bailey
k...@abundantsolar.com
541-231-8072 x1


On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 4:38 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> Kirk:
>
>
>
> There are a lot of misconceptions about AC Coupling in the industry.  I
> think you may have fallen victim to one:
>
>
>
> When you are feeding AC power backwards through a battery inverter, that
> inverter cannot exert any control over the charging parameters.  You can
> set bulk, absorption, float, EQ, any charge setting you can find, but if
> your power source is AC-coupled (coming in through the out door), those
> settings do not affect the charging at all.
>
>
>
> Someone please slap me if I am wrong on this.
>
>
>
> Those settings do apply if you have an AC source like a generator or grid
> that is connected to an AC *input*.   We cannot connect grid-tied
> inverters to any input because AC inputs do not create a mini-grid.
>
>
>
> Furthermore, if you set a Sunny Island for battery type “Ext BMS”, you
> cannot adjust those settings.  Pressing the buttons elicits wonky
> responses. Pressing up arrow jumps to zeros…  Pressing the down arrow can
> reduce settings but they will not be saved.  I have seen this and while
> Fortress cannot replicate this in the lab, they have heard this reported.
> (This Ext-BMS setting is only available with the latest firmware and by
> initiating New battery or New system in the quick programming function.)
>
>
>
> Until this moment I did not realize that this is another reason Closed
> loop on a
>
> Sunny Island is a non-starter:  If you can’t set charge parameters for
> generator or grid battery charging then you have a system that cannot be
> set to charge batteries from AC sources with precision.  If closed loop
> does not work for this reason, and open loop does not track the critical
> SOC values, then we may be out of options.  Maybe this is why SMA will not
> talk to anyone with lithium batteries.
>
>
>
> Hm…
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Kirk Bailey [mailto:k...@abundantsolar.com]
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 12, 2023 3:05 PM
> *To:* will...@millersolar.com; RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an
> SI AC-coupled system
>
>
>
> I went back and looked at my notes on my recent adventure with closed loop
> SI to eFlex Fortress, and one thing I had noted at the time is that
> Fortress recommends 2.2V, 2.26V, and 2.3V for the setting for ChrgVtgFlo
> (220-10), depending on which of three Fortress docs I read.  I think I
> ended up setting it to 2.26V after some experimentation.
>
>
>
> I can imagine a scenario where the voltage gets *slightly* too high,
> activating the most trigger-happy of the battery's BMS's, and the resulting
> sudden partial loss in load then causes a transitory voltage surge from the
> SI, which then...
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Kirk Bailey
>
> k...@abundantsolar.com
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Jay:
>
>
>
> Good question. I assumed some kind of FET circuit but that is only my
> assumption.
>
>
>
> However an open relay exhibits some fairly high impedance.
>
>
>
> The symptoms indicate the SI shuts down but the batteries remain
> connected. Something allows 69 volts on the battery terminals…
>
>
> William Miller
> Miller Solar.com
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Maybe someone else knows differently but it was explained to me that the
> fortress batteries have a relay that disconnects the battery if the voltage
> gets to high or low. There isn’t any electronic  device to change battery
> impedance besides what the actual cells are doing.
>
>
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On Nov 12, 2023, at 12:50 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Rega

Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system

[Kirk Bailey via RE-wrenches]

Make that 222-10 for ChrgVtgFlo, not 220-10

Kirk


On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 3:05 PM Kirk Bailey  wrote:

> I went back and looked at my notes on my recent adventure with closed loop
> SI to eFlex Fortress, and one thing I had noted at the time is that
> Fortress recommends 2.2V, 2.26V, and 2.3V for the setting for ChrgVtgFlo
> (220-10), depending on which of three Fortress docs I read.  I think I
> ended up setting it to 2.26V after some experimentation.
>
> I can imagine a scenario where the voltage gets *slightly* too high,
> activating the most trigger-happy of the battery's BMS's, and the resulting
> sudden partial loss in load then causes a transitory voltage surge from the
> SI, which then...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kirk Bailey
> k...@abundantsolar.com
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Jay:
>>
>> Good question. I assumed some kind of FET circuit but that is only my
>> assumption.
>>
>> However an open relay exhibits some fairly high impedance.
>>
>> The symptoms indicate the SI shuts down but the batteries remain
>> connected. Something allows 69 volts on the battery terminals…
>>
>> William Miller
>> Miller Solar.com
>> 805-438-5600
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe someone else knows differently but it was explained to me that the
>>> fortress batteries have a relay that disconnects the battery if the voltage
>>> gets to high or low. There isn’t any electronic  device to change battery
>>> impedance besides what the actual cells are doing.
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>> On Nov 12, 2023, at 12:50 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> Regarding the SI Inverters,for me it works best to eliminate the bat
>>> temp sensor and put in a resister set to be 75 degrees, this will prevent
>>> the charger over under charge issue.
>>> Fun times
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 Friends:



 I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny
 Islands and Sunny Boys.



 With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting
 of SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters.  This
 discrepancy did not diminish over time.  The discrepancy caused
 unacceptable charging and generator operations.



 I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI
 inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition.  I
 believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the
 battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the
 voltage spike I have been seeing.   I was able to measure these conditions
 myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording
 with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!).



 I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter
 and perform some analysis.  It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the
 SI (as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift
 Power Control.  This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor
 control over battery charging to having no control over battery charging.



 I have documented my research here
 .
 There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information.  I
 appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have.



 By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny
 Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up
 and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply).  I am
 the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to
 figure out things for himself.  I have taught myself how to evaluate those
 log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject.  In the meantime,
 if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the
 case study.  I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any
 integrator that wants that knowledge.



 Thanks in advance for any insight.  I hope I am wrong about this and I
 am just missing something.  I also hope revealing my headaches will help
 someone someday…



 William



 Miller Solar

 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

 805-438-5600

 www.millersolar.com

 CA Lic. 773985




 ___
 List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

 Pay optional memb

Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system

[Kirk Bailey via RE-wrenches]

I went back and looked at my notes on my recent adventure with closed loop
SI to eFlex Fortress, and one thing I had noted at the time is that
Fortress recommends 2.2V, 2.26V, and 2.3V for the setting for ChrgVtgFlo
(220-10), depending on which of three Fortress docs I read.  I think I
ended up setting it to 2.26V after some experimentation.

I can imagine a scenario where the voltage gets *slightly* too high,
activating the most trigger-happy of the battery's BMS's, and the resulting
sudden partial loss in load then causes a transitory voltage surge from the
SI, which then...

Cheers,

Kirk Bailey
k...@abundantsolar.com


On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Jay:
>
> Good question. I assumed some kind of FET circuit but that is only my
> assumption.
>
> However an open relay exhibits some fairly high impedance.
>
> The symptoms indicate the SI shuts down but the batteries remain
> connected. Something allows 69 volts on the battery terminals…
>
> William Miller
> Miller Solar.com
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Maybe someone else knows differently but it was explained to me that the
>> fortress batteries have a relay that disconnects the battery if the voltage
>> gets to high or low. There isn’t any electronic  device to change battery
>> impedance besides what the actual cells are doing.
>>
>> Jay
>>
>> On Nov 12, 2023, at 12:50 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Regarding the SI Inverters,for me it works best to eliminate the bat temp
>> sensor and put in a resister set to be 75 degrees, this will prevent the
>> charger over under charge issue.
>> Fun times
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Friends:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny
>>> Islands and Sunny Boys.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting
>>> of SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters.  This
>>> discrepancy did not diminish over time.  The discrepancy caused
>>> unacceptable charging and generator operations.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI
>>> inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition.  I
>>> believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the
>>> battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the
>>> voltage spike I have been seeing.   I was able to measure these conditions
>>> myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording
>>> with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter
>>> and perform some analysis.  It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the
>>> SI (as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift
>>> Power Control.  This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor
>>> control over battery charging to having no control over battery charging.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have documented my research here
>>> .
>>> There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information.  I
>>> appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny
>>> Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up
>>> and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply).  I am
>>> the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to
>>> figure out things for himself.  I have taught myself how to evaluate those
>>> log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject.  In the meantime,
>>> if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the
>>> case study.  I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any
>>> integrator that wants that knowledge.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for any insight.  I hope I am wrong about this and I
>>> am just missing something.  I also hope revealing my headaches will help
>>> someone someday…
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Miller Solar
>>>
>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>>
>>> 805-438-5600
>>>
>>> www.millersolar.com
>>>
>>> CA Lic. 773985
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> There are two list archives for

Re: [RE-wrenches] Home grid stacked battery heating

[Kirk Bailey via RE-wrenches]

Something else to consider is that many of the modern LFP batteries use a
relatively large amount of power just to keep the internal BMS/contactor(s)
energized, independent of whether the battery is being charged/discharged.
For example, I believe the Fortress eFlex 5.4's use on the order of 12-20 W
continuously, *each*.  A stack of four generates a significant amount of
heat from this alone!

Cheers,

Kirk Bailey
k...@abundantsolar.com


On Sun, Nov 5, 2023 at 12:28 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Daryl,
> Being in Vermont and dealing with lots of off-grid, occasional use
> systems, I'm definitely interested in others' experience with cold weather
> installations.
> Howie Michaelson
> Sun Catcher
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 5, 2023 at 3:03 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Great site, Allan, but many facts still need to be included.  Was there a
>> discharge or charge going on? How much power was being drawn by the
>> heaters?  If this is for a standalone system, energy consumption is very
>> important. What is the lower temperature cell discharge limit of Blue
>> Planet?   What concern was taken for the summer and overheating?   What are
>> the blue planet-specific heat and weight of the batteries?  More questions,
>> but I doubt if anyone else is interested. Thank you.
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 11:49 AM Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> You might be able to get some ideas from this. It's worked well for me
>>> on one job.
>>> Allan
>>>
>>> On 10/25/2023 2:24 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>>
>>> I know we have had this run thru before & wanted to see if any new
>>> options for heating LI batteries.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have an 8 pack of Homegrid LI batteries that is off grid with Radian
>>> 8048a. Originally, they were not going to be there for the winter, now it
>>> is a possibility they may visit. Plenty of solar 6KW+, hopefully generator
>>> back up waiting on delivery currently.
>>>
>>> Currently located in main room high ceilings/log cabin.
>>>
>>> Looking at creating an insulated closet & using terrarium heaters
>>> controlled if over 51volt heater on AC from inverter. Or just boxing in
>>> with 3-4” of blue board Styrofoam….
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Has anyone else done something similar?
>>>
>>> Has anyone done this & it did not work?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thought & suggestions…..
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _
>>>
>>> Dana OrzelGREAT SOLAR WORKS!
>>>
>>> C – 208.721.7003  E – d...@solarwork.com
>>>
>>> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com
>>>
>>> *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> Change listserver email address & 
>>> settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the 
>>> other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *Allan Sindelar*
>>> al...@sindelarsolar.com
>>> RETIRED
>>>
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[RE-wrenches] Off Grid, Cloudy Days, Solar Tilt Question

[Kirk Bailey via RE-wrenches]

 Dave,

The paper reference was at the bottom of my original post (1), but a
quick summary of what they recommended was exactly what you mentioned -
Have two axis trackers "go horizontal" during heavy overcast instead of
continuing to track the sun to improve production!

I'm familiar with the general tradeoffs for off-grid in terms of array
oversizing, generator usage, and load shedding:  We have had past customers
that have made it work for them, and others that couldn't and ultimately
decided to get a grid connection!

Cheers,

Kirk Bailey
k...@abundantsolar.com

Kirk,

Can you reference your paper on this? So many variables and each location
will be different. Most dual axis
trackers can always be left flat or any angle so that does not make sense
to me.

You have to design for winter offgrid if the location is worth it. Or, alot
of hours on a genset.

Super large arrays in your area will help give you more days/hours before
you need the iron genoa.
You have to decide if it is worth the money. The home has to have the
ability to shed some loads also.



*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
   <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/
<https://offgridsolar1.com/>  <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
text 209 813 0060*


On 2023-10-25 3:46 pm, Kirk Bailey via RE-wrenches wrote:

Hi All!



We don't do a lot of pure off-grid systems and I recently ran across
something I wanted to run by folks with more experience in this area:
Optimal array tilt for our very cloudy PNW winters!

My understanding has always been that latitude plus 10-15 degrees was the
best tilt to address our winter energy shortage. However a paper I recently
read (1), makes a compelling case for a much shallower tilt in situations
where the cloud cover is so heavy that "diffuse" solar radiation is all
that makes it through. They indicate that under those conditions a
horizontal array will produce significantly more energy than even a
two-axis tracker!

Given that the challenge in our off-grid setups always seems to be making
it through the really cloudy stretches, and that there is usually enough
energy the rest of the time, should we be installing off-grid arrays at a
shallower angle?

Anyone tried this?



Kirk Bailey

k...@abundantsolar.com

www.abundantsolar.com



(1) Kelly, N.A., Gibson, T.L, 2011, Increasing the solar photovoltaic
energy capture on sunny and cloudy days. Solar Energy 85, 111-125.



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[RE-wrenches] Off Grid, Cloudy Days, Solar Tilt Question

[Kirk Bailey via RE-wrenches]

Hi All!


We don't do a lot of pure off-grid systems and I recently ran across
something I wanted to run by folks with more experience in this area:
Optimal array tilt for our very cloudy PNW winters!

My understanding has always been that latitude plus 10-15 degrees was the
best tilt to address our winter energy shortage. However a paper I recently
read (1), makes a compelling case for a much shallower tilt in situations
where the cloud cover is so heavy that "diffuse" solar radiation is all
that makes it through. They indicate that under those conditions a
horizontal array will produce significantly more energy than even a
two-axis tracker!

Given that the challenge in our off-grid setups always seems to be making
it through the really cloudy stretches, and that there is usually enough
energy the rest of the time, should we be installing off-grid arrays at a
shallower angle?

Anyone tried this?


Kirk Bailey

k...@abundantsolar.com

www.abundantsolar.com


(1) Kelly, N.A., Gibson, T.L, 2011, Increasing the solar photovoltaic
energy capture on sunny and cloudy days. Solar Energy 85, 111-125.
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