Re: [RE-wrenches] AEE closing down operations

[Richard Nicol via RE-wrenches]

Probably too many of us stopped using them when they partnered with Sun Run. Sent from my iPhoneOn Mar 28, 2024, at 4:27 PM, Jeremy Coxon via RE-wrenches  wrote:I’m not going to editorialize about this, other than to say - what a damn shame to get this note in my inbox today.  19 years I’ve been buying from them and I’m sure some you on this list for much longer.  Talk about losing sight of the mission.<8c86e00d-c831-fc63-debe-484f5b9af308.jpg>Dear Valued Customer,We hope this message finds you well. It is with a heavy heart that we reach out to share an important update regarding the future of AEE Solar. After careful consideration, we've made the difficult decision to wind down AEE’s operations over the next 36 days, with a tentative closing date of May 3rd, 2024. Please be aware that this date may be subject to change, and we will keep you informed of any updates.As a result, we are offering attractive clearance pricing on the majority of our inventory over the next month, which we encourage you to take advantage of.We understand that this news might come as a surprise. Our Customer Support Team and Territory Sales Managers are available to address any questions or concerns you may have during this time. We are committed to transparency and will keep you informed throughout the process, including confirmation of the final closing date, well in advance.If you purchase SnapNrack products from AEE, please reach out to your Territory Sales Manager to explore opportunities to purchase directly from SnapNrack going forward.We want to express our sincere gratitude for your ongoing support. It has been a privilege serving you, and we wish you continued success. We look forward to serving you during this wind-down period.Sincerely,The AEE Solar TeamJeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBESent from my iPhone___List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Richard Nicol via RE-wrenches]

Hi Ray
We had a complete failure of 6 Simpliphi batteries with the same symptoms
you found.
Another installer had replaced the inverter with an XW and appeared to
leave the charger programing on factory defaults along with temp
compensation so when the generator was called for it would rise to
absorption at 57.6V. I considered that programming may have reverted to
defaults too as the other installer in this case was experienced and
respected. We have seen Magnum inverters with an ARC revert to default
programming and we've seen Magnum 48v programming suddenly revert to
precisely 1/4 of its settings - so it shifted to 12v values on its own??
Sometimes I find it's hard to trust the complexity of firmware and software
(especially after having dealt with garbage like the outback skybox!)

I too expected the bms to protect itself and shut down if the voltage was
high enough to do damage. It seems ridiculous that it doesn't.

You mentioned the aux charger is stable at 58v  - if this charger was used
in the past in additon to the XW it may be the culprit as 56v is typically
the max for simpliphi - the integration guides started at 56v, then
Simpliphi changed the recommendation to a lower voltage and longer
duration, only to later revise charging recommendations back to 56v for a
short duration.

Lithium manufacturers drive very precise charging recommendations, but then
we find that the equipment we use in off grid
(outback/magnum/schneider/midnite) doesn't control as tightly or precisely
as the battery manufacturer requires.

Among the challenges we found was absolutely no infrastructure  for
disposal of the failed batteries..

Hope you find reasonable resolution -
Thanks
Rich


On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Ray
>
> I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium.
> Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS.
>
> But that sure sucks.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
> We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh
> batteries, 48 v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off
> grid.  This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the
> barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The RMA/ Warranty process has not been
> smooth.  It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi,
> and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept
> used Li+ batteries for shipment.  To their credit, tech support has been
> knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site.
>
>  Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after
> several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage.
> (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer
> started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the
> batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with
> Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger.  I
> checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v.  By the time
> I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge
> current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but
> strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals.  It was not
> usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no
> loads.
>
> Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage
> event.  Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback
> FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi
> integration guides.   BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they
> just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed
> = customer's fault.  I think it failed because of the voltage differential
> between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage.  If  the BMS
> can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on
> industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications.
> Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off
> grid; its a tough gig.
>
> How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu
> on this list?  Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over
> voltage events.  Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide,
> so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their
> batteries.
>
> So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have
> cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set.  That's
> approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*.  Simpliphi is saying
> they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen.
> The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in
> sub zero 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Odd battery charging behavior with Outback inverters

[Richard Nicol via RE-wrenches]

Hi William Jay is correct, rebulk will prevent a new bulk charge whether ac power is maintained or applied “cold”. It doesn’t make sense per our accepted and understood definition of rebulk, but we’ve seen this on every Radian/vfxr  installed with lithium.Adjust the rebulk up to just below the float setting and sure enough it will enter a charge cycle.Also, don’t hesitate to reboot the mate after adjusting the rebulk. Some times it doesn’t seem to take otherwise. RichSent from my iPhoneOn Jan 12, 2024, at 12:39 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches  wrote:Jay:Thanks for the reply. My understanding is that a new bulk process begins every time AC power is reapplied. Rebulk only applies if AC power is maintained after absorption completes. That’s not what is happening here. William MillerMiller Solar.com805-438-5600www.millersolar.comOn Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 8:50 AM Jay via RE-wrenches  wrote:There is or was a setting in the mate 3/s that the rebulk volts has a trigger. If the voltage doesn’t get below it it won’t charge (absorb) properly. Fix is to set the rebulk up higher than the charge voltsI don’t know if that’s your issue or not but I have fixed this  on systems. JayOn Jan 12, 2024, at 8:52 AM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches  wrote:Good Morning Everyone, The graphs look like something is bypassing the absorb timers.   I haven't been at Outback for a long time now, but from my experience, this can be caused by the FNDC, end amps programming of the FM Controllers,  or the operating mode of the inverter. On the FM Charge Controllers: In the Advanced menus are the End Amps settings; this should be programmed to about .5 to 1% of the battery bank capacity at the most.  If the absorb timers are over 4 hours, I would defeat this setting altogether, especially if they charge lead batteries.   The issue with this setting is most lead manufacturers want the current going into the battery under charge to fall to less than 2-3% for 60 mins.   The timer in the FM's is only 3 mins and is not programmable.    On the FNDC: Still, to this day, I find FNDC installations that are not correctly programmed, even from experienced installers.  It does not help that the FNDC was a very misunderstood product. The FNDC has 5 Settings that Matter:   Battery Capacity,  End Amps, Parameters Met Time, Parameters Met Voltage, and Battery Charge Factor%. Battery Capascity = C20 Battery Capascity. End Amp 2-3% of the C20 rateThe settings that trip up most are met voltage, Met Time, and BCF%.   The Met time for FLA, AGM, and GEL should be 45 to 60 mins. For LFP, it should be around 30 mins.   It could be 45 to 60 minutes if you have over three parallel strings of LFP batteries. A bit longer will allow for better balancing between strings.     Parameters Met Voltage should be one step under the target absorb voltage.   So, if you charge 59.2, this should be set to 58.8. As for the Mode of the inverter, if the inverter is attempting to support or grid sell, these modes will shorten the charging and bypass the Absrob timers depending on how low the battery voltage dropped and for how long.   In the old days, this used to be on only the GT-version inverters; now, it's present in all of them. It just depends on what mode the inverter is programmed to operate in.  For a straight off-grid system, generator mode is the correct mode, but it's been a while, and I would have to check the OB documentation as to what mode to operate in. Contact me offlist or call me, and maybe I can better explain it... I do have an optics account (st...@surrette.com). If you invite me to view your setup, I may be able to take a look and help find the setting(s) causing this, but I would look first for the above-mentioned issues. One last thing: it could be a failing battery cell or connection issue, as this would also trigger end amps terminations early.  The problem with this is you have a lot of installs doing the same thing, so this is a settings issue rather than failing cells. Hope this helps! Steve Higgins ⋅ 
Technical Services Manager 
 
 
t 
+1.902.597.4020  m 
+1.206.790.5840f +1.902.597.8447  e 
st...@surrette.com 
CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies.On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 4:33 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches  wrote:William,This is a very timely question, I have been seeing the same thing.  I also don't allow any Flexnet interference in charging.  I went to investigate a site yesterday and figured this one out.It turned out that the Flexnet was uncalibrated by about 1V on the low side.  This was a 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum problem

[Richard Nicol via RE-wrenches]

If dc voltage is elevated magnum inverters won’t charge. Force Bulk under the Cntrl menu will test if this is the issue.Rebulk voltage can be adjusted only in you use “silent” final charge rather than “Multi” as final charge state.If using lithium batteries, cc/cv instead of custom battery settings may also be of benefit.RichSent from my iPhoneOn Oct 31, 2023, at 12:11 PM, Starlight via RE-wrenches  wrote:Sorry Dan, I meant Ron.
On Oct 31, 2023, at 11:08 AM, Starlight via RE-wrenches  wrote:Dan,Since you are using 120Vac for the source, did you connect to just 1 AC input; AC1 or AC2?  You can not parallel same phase to both inputs or damage may occur. Have you measured the generator frequency and voltage at the inverter input? Make sure to reduce the charge rate to 50% or less when supplying 120V only. Larry CrutcherStarlight Power Systems

On Oct 31, 2023, at 10:56 AM, Dan Fink via RE-wrenches  wrote:I have had issues before with Magnum inverter/chargers not accepting AC input from certain generators. In one case, it would not charge from a Honda 3kw cube, but worked fine with camp’s Honda 2kw. Magnum said it was a Honda problem, Honda said it was a Magnum problem. We ended up just rearranging generators and inverters between camps. Weird, we never detected anything odd in voltage or frequency from any of the generators.Dan FinkOwner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLCIREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind InstallationNABCEP Certified PV System InspectorNABCEP PV Associatedanbo...@gmail.com970-672-4342 On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 11:39 AM Ron Young via RE-wrenches  wrote:Hello Wrenches,I am completely stumped. I built a Magnum 4448 panel for a client and it was installed by an electrician. It was thoroughly tested before going out the door on all functions and pre-programmed for the off-grid site. Electrician just had to hang it on the wall and make 4 connections, AC IN, AC OUT, BATTERY, PV. Somehow the system wouldn’t go into charge mode. The site is a 3 hour trip each way. The electrician was baffled, he had experience installing solar but very limited so I went to the site to see what the problem was. After spending a day checking out the inverter with two different generators, checking all the connections, AC at the inputs at the inverter and at the outputs on the breakers, and even removed the cover from the inverter to make sure some connections had not shaken loose inside the box on the long bumpy road into the property. Everything checked out. So assuming the AC board in the inverter was faulty I ordered a new unit to replace and that has now been done. SAME PROBLEM! I’m wondering now if it’s possible that the Magnum remote monitor could be the problem. It functions properly on every setting but is it possible there is an internal fault? Could it prevent the automatic charge cycle from initiating? Seems unlikely to me because the inverter can go into charge mode even without the monitor. I also tried replacing the connection cable between the monitor and inverter but no luck. The generators are both small, one a Honda 2kW and the other a Champion 3.8kW. Neither is ideal but I have had no issues with these types of generators in the past and the client has ordered a larger 10kW unit but we don’t have it yet to test. Generators have been run with Eco Mode off. Output to the house on bypass is consistent and without problem.Any suggestions - this is just confounding.RonearthRight Products - Solareagle.com___
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