[RE-wrenches] Net AC kW Derate Factor for Xantrex XW inverter and XW opinions
Greetings Esteemed Wrenches, What would you recommend I use for a total de-rate factor for a grid tied Xantrex XW system with 4.14 kW of Yingli 230 watt modules? Yingli's are rated +/- 3% which probably means at least -5% to be safe. Would a total of .7 be about right? Battery bank will likely be one string of L-16's or similar. I'm helping a customer calculate annual production for his rebate. At this point it's just an estimate as Arkansas wisely bases their rebate on actual production and requires a dedicated meter for the system. I'm using the Wiley Asset tool to adjust for shading and azimuth. The Asset software uses .77 as a default but that's for a battery-less system. Probably before I head too far down this road what does anyone have to say about using the XW6048 for a grid tied application? I've used a few XW's off grid and have been pleased but never grid tied one. Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Padded equipment cases.
I was just at our local Academy Sports (big box sporting goods store) and noticed they had a great selection of Pelican brand cases plus some lower priced knock offs that appeared to be decent quality. The largest Pelican (~20 x~15 x 6) was under $100 and had the removable squares like Jeff mentioned but these appeared to ½ or smaller which would allow for some nice customization (IHMO). Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Oldham Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 12:38 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Padded equipment cases. I'm not aware of anyone doing these custom molds but I would encourage you to reconsider a DIY system based on Pelican cases. These cases are super strong (lifetime warranty), float, water and dust tight and the foam is perf cut into cubes that you simply pluck out to create the cavities you need they are about 1" cubes so nearly any shape can be made. It actually comes out pretty darn nice and can be modified as your equip. evolves over time. -jeff o >From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3132/4c6431ef21f757390a1st01vuc> Local Mom Makes $4000/mo A local mom beat the recession with this trick. Read more. News8Reports.com <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3132/4c6431ef21f757390a1st01vuc> ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] wind scam?
Sorry to chime in late. Even though I'm not familiar with the turbine in question I agree with others are saying and I would like to offer a suggestion in hopes that it will help others as much as has me. I finally realized that the there was no way to convince most people that the wind turbine they were asking about wasn't the one that had figured what thousands of others before them couldn't. I also realized that most people think I'm an fool when I tell them that the fancy website full of expertly wordsmithed press releases and pictures of the wind turbine in question with a celebrity/high level government officials (Ed, Jay, Arnold) are taking a lot of liberties with the truth and the laws of physics. For me personally I've found that it's very effective and respectful to reply to these inquiries with something similar to the following. "I not familiar with it, you should ask the dealer or factory for names and addresses of the ones installed closest to you. I would certainly spend at least an afternoon or more visiting an owner at his house investigating something I was about to spend $ or more on. If it's not been installed for at least 12 months or if they don't or won't discuss their actual production data with you then I think you know all you need to know" That's all I say and politely make it clear I've got nothing else to say about that matter because that's all know. It's easier to just play dumb. Never argue with an idiot, etc. Of course, I always throw the standard bit about conservation first and checking around locally for a home energy auditor, etc. Most folks immediately get the idea; give up their quest for the perfect wind turbine and I doubt spend much more time on the idea of wind or conservation. Hope that helped someone. Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Daum Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2010 1:40 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] wind scam? With all the alleged information on their web site, I couldn't find any power curves. And their "contact us" form was only for folks who had purchased their turbines. Let the buyer beware! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Roy Butler Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2010 11:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] wind scam? Todd, We're still waiting for verifiable 3rd party energy production data on this turbine. Until that happens, this turbine stays on my "not ready for prime time" list. As of today, Helix has not seen fit to file a notice of intent to certify with the SWCC. Keep an eye on that list and the eventual certified turbine list, both will be very helpful in the future for weeding out the scams. www.smallwindcertification.org "Revolutionary" may be a good description for kinetic lawn art but doesn't tell us a thing about it's ability to produce kilowatt hours to the grid. What is it about human nature that makes people believe that the weirder the design, the better it must be? And that "breakthrough" technology is the best technology? Have fun with this customer! Roy Butler NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerR NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer PA Sunshine Program Approved PV Installer Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46 Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 7/24/2010 12:36 PM, Todd Cory wrote: Sorry to bother the list with this kind of BS, but I have a client who insists this is a revolutionary wind machine design that is not a yard art scam. Feedback? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9flSPAdOLk ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Trojan L16 2v vs 6v
Greetings Esteemed Wrenches, I searched the archives and didn't find a specific reference to my question so please accept my apology in advance if this has already been covered. Are the 2v Trojan L16s a much better option than the "standard" (non-re, 370 Ah) L16? Local distributor tells me they are specially formulated for renewable energy. They have a 7yr warranty vs. 6 months for the standard L16 which is pretty attractive. kWh capacity wise they are the same. But I can't find any actual cycle life curves for either battery which is a pretty critical data point in my mind. (would it kill Trojan to publish that on their website) My cost on the 2v L16 is nearly 50% more than the standard L16 so it's certainly worth doing some homework. It's time to replace a set (3 strings of 4) of L16's that I'm sure have been abused in a full time off grid residence. They won't even make it through the night anymore. I adopted this system several years ago and found a severely sulfated one yr old set of chronically under charged batteries that had replaced a set that they had gotten less than 2yrs out of. Most of the usual suspects..small solar array, both solar and gen charge settings left at the factory defaults, Tri-metric was there but not installed, and customer who didn't pay attention because he didn't have the time. On at least several occasions the customer let the electrolyte level drop to the point where the plates are exposed. I immediately upped the charge settings then over the last 3yrs I've increased the solar to just over 2kW, replaced the tired 8kW generator with 12kW and added a second 4024. All of these upgrades should lead to much a better life for the next set of batteries. If the budget wasn't such a major concern I'd like to get them into a set of HUP's which I still might be able to. A comparable set of HUP's is just over 2x's the money but they offer at least 3 times the life on paper anyway. We've got numerous sets of HUPs out there. Some are approaching 10yrs old but customers take very good care of them. Thanks in advance for any input or suggestions. Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] rebar v/s fiber
At least for me, the need for and where to put rebar was easier to make sense of when it was explained to me by a very wise basement contractor that concrete's strength is compression and weakness is tension. That's where the steel rebar comes in as it has excellent resistance to stretching. For example; engineered prints on basement walls will actually specify the rebar placed closer to the living space side of the wall. Imagine the fill trying to bow the wall like a banana because the footer is holding the bottom of the wall in place while floor of the house is holding the top in place. The fill side of the wall is being compressed and open side is being stretched. Hopefully that will help others as much as it did me. Take care, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kent Osterberg Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 9:31 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] rebar v/s fiber The need for rebar or not depends on how the pole is secured and on the shape of the footing. If you are installing a pipe in a deep narrow hole per most mount manufacturer's specifications, no rebar should be necessary. Anything else will certainly require rebar and per manufacturers' disclaimers should be designed by an engineer. For example, if the installation will have j-bolts in the concrete with the post welded to a plate held in place by the j-bolts, a full rebar cage will needed. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] low voltage disconnect
You didnt mention if you had a Trimetric but Ive experienced numerous instances of them sapping a bank. In one case, as part of winterizing his cabin a customer turned everything off, including the solar but did not remove the fuse for the Trimetric. He called in the spring to let me know the inverter was dead. On a side note this same customers well pump shorted its internal windings and took out a set of Outback control boards before we figured out what was going on so I assumed he was correct. I arrived to find the 24v nominal system at 8v. Even though we had a generator we couldnt even get the inverters to turn on so we had no charger and had to bring the batteries back to the shop to recharge them. The MX60 wasnt even able to turn on at that low of a voltage. Once the fully charged batteries were returned everything was fine and customer was instructed to leave solar on at all times. At a forest service campground a charge controller failed and even the though the LVD turned off the loads the Trimetric was still on. I arrived to a battery voltage that was about ¼ of the system voltage. Milliamps x 24 hrs/day will get deplete even a large battery bank especially if the bank was severely discharged to begin with. I could go on but the rest of the examples are similar. In all of the instances the batteries were healthy to start. Of course self discharge factors in but none of these banks would have self discharged that severely in the time period. Maybe that helped. Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Solar Plexus Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 5:23 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] low voltage disconnect Wrenches. I have a customer with a stand-alone system with an XW inverter, XW controller, pole mounted array of four 235-watt panels, and 4 of the 8D gel batteries. He uses the system mostly on weekends. Winter came, the solar array was still set at about 30°, a snowstorm covered the panels while no one was there, and 4 days later the battery voltage was 6. The week-end use had been substantial, so I assume the batteries were low prior to the snowstorm. With no solar coming in, and loads still on, the battery voltage presumably went to Low Battery Cut Out voltage of 44 before the inverter disconnected the AC loads. With the AC loads disconnected, and no DC loads in the system, what caused the battery voltage to go to 6? I assume the XW controller used 2.5 watts continuous or 60 watt-hrs per day as battery voltage went from 44 volts to 10 volts when the controller would have shut off completely. What happens with the inverter when the battery goes below 44 volts? Does the inverter shut off and there is no more draw on the batteries, or does the inverter continue to draw the no-load draw of 28 watts, or does the inverter draw the search-load draw of 8 watts? At what voltage does the inverter stop drawing power? At 44 volts, the battery is presumed to be pretty dead. How many amp-hours are available in a 100 amp-hour 48v battery (4 12-v batteries in series) while drawing the voltage from 44 volts and 6 volts? Is there anything there or will the voltage just drop from 44 to 6 with very little power draw? The Low Voltage Disconnect is set for 44 volts, but if the inverter itself does not shut off, then the practical low voltage becomes the voltage the inverter stops working at. To protect the batteries, is there any advantage to limiting the low voltage to 44 volts as opposed to 6 volts. If so, is there some way to have the inverter shut itself off at low voltage? We have had this same thing happen with an Outback inverter, again taking the batteries to near zero. Is there any way that either the Outback or Sunny Island would operate differently than described above? Looking forward to any comments on these issues. Thank you. Lee Tavenner Solar Plexus ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Other's thoughts on Autonomy?
Hi Joel, I think we are all pretty much on the same page. I'm speaking mainly about a full time off grid residence, commonly with flooded lead acid and of course a fossil back up generator. Most of my full time off gridders don't even need to their generator from late April to early October. They report that it's normal that by 10 or 11 am their CC is in float. Then winter sets in with frequent 2-3 week periods of clouds. Like Walt said, where is the magic cloudy day number for me? Is it the average of 3 weeks of sun and 3 weeks of clouds for 1.5 weeks of autonomy? That's grossly oversized in the summer and still inadequate in the winter. >From my view, if you need xxx kWh's per month to live that's how many you need, and days of autonomy aren't that meaningful when you can only generate 1/3rd of that with your array. You have to run the generator just as many hours per month regardless of how many days of autonomy, right? And I believe that if you factor in charge efficiency and self discharge the larger the bank has a few more hrs per month of generator usage. Thanks for sharing your thoughts everyone. Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel Davidson Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 6:38 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Other's thoughts on Autonomy? wasconcordbatteries, EQUALIZE Them! Hello Travis, I think that 2 days is not enough battery autonomy in the Ozarks and many other locations unless you have a fossil fuel generator to carry you through long cloudy periods. Battery autonomy is site and load specific. I've done systems with as little as 1 day and as much as 3 weeks at 80% depth of discharge. Lately, I've been generically specing 1.5 days of autonomy at 50% d.o.d. to get the dialogue started with the customer. I use to spec up to 4 parallel strings of T-105s or L-16s in 2, 4, and 8 batteries in series, but now I keep the number of strings down to 3 or less and prefer 1 or 2 strings of big 2-volt cells to reduce the number of cells and connections. Southern California urban and suburban grid-tie PV systems are almost all non-battery although we still get asked about emergency power - until they hear how much it adds to the cost of a grid-tie PV system. Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: Travis Creswell <mailto:tcresw...@ozarkenergyservices.com> To: 'RE-wrenches' <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 2:15 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Other's thoughts on Autonomy? was concordbatteries, EQUALIZE Them! IMHO, one of the worst design boo-boo's is going past more then 2 days of autonomy. Personally, I no longer size much over one day because it's my anecdotal observation that most batteries die of old age and being ignored long before cycles get them. Speaking mostly about quality deep cycle flooded. Lots of good things result; -50%-75% smaller battery bank means a $20,000 battery bank just turned into $5,000 bank which frees up a ton of money for more modules and now-a-days you can buy a lot more PV with that money. More array mean far less reliance on autonomy. I'll take the trade all year long. In the summer we have 3 to 4 weeks of sun and one day of clouds and in the winter we get 3 to 4 week stretches with 1 sunny day. Autonomy doesn't really matter in either case from what I've seen. The larger the bank means more self discharge losses, which on large battery banks gets significant as they age. 5-15 years later you'll still have all that array but no matter what you're looking at new battery bank. -If you study the quality deep cycle manufacturers literature you'll see that you'll see that anything over 1 day of autonomy is too much to allow the array to actually charge the battery bank anywhere near the recommended amps and just like rust, sulfation never sleeps. -Less cells to water -Less space required -Given that a surprisingly high percentage of off gridders totally screw up on their first bank, no matter how much we all try we might as keep the stupid tax of replacing a 2.5 yr old battery bank to a minimum. -All of this discussion about cross paralleling, buss bars, TLC with a gazillion connections and multiple strings goes away. -And the best part is we don't have to carry all of the lead into the basement and even better back out of the basement! Just my .02. Feel free to strongly disagree but let's be polite about it. Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray Walters Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:44 PM To:
Re: [RE-wrenches] Other's thoughts on Autonomy? was concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!
IMHO, one of the worst design boo-boo's is going past more then 2 days of autonomy. Personally, I no longer size much over one day because it's my anecdotal observation that most batteries die of old age and being ignored long before cycles get them. Speaking mostly about quality deep cycle flooded. Lots of good things result; -50%-75% smaller battery bank means a $20,000 battery bank just turned into $5,000 bank which frees up a ton of money for more modules and now-a-days you can buy a lot more PV with that money. More array mean far less reliance on autonomy. I'll take the trade all year long. In the summer we have 3 to 4 weeks of sun and one day of clouds and in the winter we get 3 to 4 week stretches with 1 sunny day. Autonomy doesn't really matter in either case from what I've seen. The larger the bank means more self discharge losses, which on large battery banks gets significant as they age. 5-15 years later you'll still have all that array but no matter what you're looking at new battery bank. -If you study the quality deep cycle manufacturers literature you'll see that you'll see that anything over 1 day of autonomy is too much to allow the array to actually charge the battery bank anywhere near the recommended amps and just like rust, sulfation never sleeps. -Less cells to water -Less space required -Given that a surprisingly high percentage of off gridders totally screw up on their first bank, no matter how much we all try we might as keep the stupid tax of replacing a 2.5 yr old battery bank to a minimum. -All of this discussion about cross paralleling, buss bars, TLC with a gazillion connections and multiple strings goes away. -And the best part is we don't have to carry all of the lead into the basement and even better back out of the basement! Just my .02. Feel free to strongly disagree but let's be polite about it. Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray Walters Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:44 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them! I used to think that one string was optimal; until I had a single cell failure take out an entire system for weeks. (try operating a 24 v system at 22v! ) I now think that 2 parallel strings is optimum, 3 is OK, and 4 is max. At 4 parallel strings, we start spending more time looking to make sure all connectors are the same exact length etc. to insure equal operation. But of course how do you account for varying internal resistance of the batteries..?? I've done 4 parallel strings at 144 DC of sealed batteries on an electric vehicle, but we were very careful with our resistances, I even switched to smaller wire, on closer strings, and calculated out the exact resistance, so all strings were theoretically equal. This set actually just died, but achieved its manufacturer's predicted cycle life. (B&B battery, 350 cycles to 80% DOD) So if you're careful, 4 strings can work well. Worst I've seen was 20 golf carts paralleled in a 12 v system, (10 strings) and they didn't pull the main connections from across the set, just connected to one end. The results were very predictable, with the furthest batteries being chronically under charged, and the closest ones being over cycled to a premature death. Ray Walters On Dec 1, 2009, at 11:28 AM, wind...@wind-sun.com wrote: You gotta wonder about why the customer bought such a battery layout, or why the installer sold that kind of configuration (which ever it was) with so many small batteries. We would never recommend going over 2 parallel banks, but sometimes the "customer knows best...". ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!
I wish I had more time to detail this but alas..with that many strings I'm pretty sure most of the batteries in this bank are toast. I would do a quick and dirty pass/fail test on each battery with a hand held 100 amp load tester. I paid $20 for mine at Harbor Freight and it's one of my most used meters. Within just a second or two you'll know because some batteries will fall on their face and I bet they are goners. Before you unhook all the batteries for the load test park the inverter the inverter bulk and float voltages at ~58v so it doesn't taper off. Then go through and check each battery. I suspect you'll find some at 11 and some 15 or higher all within the same string (string volts will always add up to 58 of course). Again I bet high ones are toast and you might be able to save to low ones. Then you can patch together one or two strings in effort to get the system in some sort of operational state while the owner digests that his $12,000 ($300 each x 40) battery is toast but even if you could fix it, it's just a bad band-aid and he needs to pony up another $8k-$12k for a real battery bank. Gotta go, good luck! Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 11:42 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them! If the 180 watt panel will provide enough current to run the recovery process, then give it a try. What I expect is that your current will vary throughout the day. Not sure if this is a critical point or if it will just prolong the process. Pay attention to the temperature. I use a laser temp probe on the terminals every 30 minutes to verify. Another thing to monitor is the current. It will probably start very low and build over time due to high resistance from sulfated plates. During this time the voltage might get really high and then lower some. Don't worry about the voltage. After a while the current will begin to drop. This means the recovery process is working. I just realized that this battery bank must be 4 in series and ten parallel strings. This is a horrible design that can never work right without extensive monthly maintenance. The strings with higher resistance will not be charged properly. Because of this, many strings will be undercharged every day. EVERY day! So even if you recover these batteries, someone will need to test and equalize at least every month. I really want to stress this point as multiple parallel batteries are the ruin and waste of many thousands of tons of batteries each year. I never design for more than two strings in parallel. Do this and be happy. Larry Crutcher www.starlightsolar.com la...@starlightsolar.com (928) 941-1660 Retail Store & Shipping 2998 Shari Ave. Yuma, AZ 85365 Mailing address 11881 South Fortuna Road; #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 Renewable Energy Systems Sales, Service, Installations On Dec 1, 2009, at 6:00 AM, Conrad Geyser wrote: Thanks for the amazing responses everyone! Larry, it sound as though the parameters below are a perfect match for your average ~180 watt PV module in December sunlight wired back through a diode to a test battery inside? Does it matter if the process get's interrupted by a few nights / cloudy days? Do you have a preferred test approach? Yeah, this bank represents a huge amount of resources; I want to make sure it can't be saved. Conrad Cotuit Solar _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 11:17 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them! Conrad, We have sold many Concord (Lifeline, Sun Xtender...) batteries over the years. They are the best and half of our battery sales are Deka and Concord AGM's. When our mobile customers abuse their AGM batteries, I use an equalization process that has a constant current and no voltage limit to restore them. I am sure you have heard that you should never equalize an AMG battery. This is not true but the process must be tightly controlled. I have done it many times and the result is always to recover some or most capacity. Do one battery at a time. 1. Battery temp: 77 degrees (+/-5) and stable 2. Apply charge current limited to 5% of the 20hr rate. eg. 220 AH will be 11 amps. Do not regulate voltage! 3. Monitor temperature and voltage. 4(a) If temperature reaches 130F, stop the process. Start again when the battery temperature has been lowered to room temperature. 4(b) When voltage reaches 2.6 vpc, continue charging for 4 hours. Voltage may reach 3 vpc!! Follow 4(a) about temp. 5. After this process, perform a capac
Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!
A DC power supply would certainly be a lot easier to use. Lots of uses for something like this once you've got it. http://mastechpowersupply.com/variable-power-supply/switching-power-supply/m astech-variable-power-supply-50v-20a-hy5020e-1000w/prod_20.html You could also set up an MX60 (if you have one lying around) with 24v of batteries on the PV side and use it to charge to the 12v battery. Christopher Freitas is the one who told me and it worked great but don't go above 24v nominal or might let the magic smoke out of the MX60. Once you get going you can rotate the batteries in such a way that you're load testing the batteries while equalizing the 12v one. Use your imagination and prepared as casual observers will think your trying to build a perpetual motion machine. I have had some very similar experiences with sealed batteries and rarely found that all the time and effort I put into testing them was worth it. IE; batteries appeared to come back to life but most all died within 6 months after putting back into "normal" service no matter how closely I watched them. It was a lot of fun and quite educational though. I've even drilled out the cells caps, added just a bit of distilled water then equalized them in effort to wet the dried out cells in a effort to try to save the chronically overcharged sealed batteries. I could get them to act normal albeit at reduced capacity for about 6 months then they all died too. Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Conrad Geyser Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 7:01 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them! Thanks for the amazing responses everyone! Larry, it sound as though the parameters below are a perfect match for your average ~180 watt PV module in December sunlight wired back through a diode to a test battery inside? Does it matter if the process get's interrupted by a few nights / cloudy days? Do you have a preferred test approach? Yeah, this bank represents a huge amount of resources; I want to make sure it can't be saved. Conrad Cotuit Solar _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 11:17 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them! Conrad, We have sold many Concord (Lifeline, Sun Xtender...) batteries over the years. They are the best and half of our battery sales are Deka and Concord AGM's. When our mobile customers abuse their AGM batteries, I use an equalization process that has a constant current and no voltage limit to restore them. I am sure you have heard that you should never equalize an AMG battery. This is not true but the process must be tightly controlled. I have done it many times and the result is always to recover some or most capacity. Do one battery at a time. 1. Battery temp: 77 degrees (+/-5) and stable 2. Apply charge current limited to 5% of the 20hr rate. eg. 220 AH will be 11 amps. Do not regulate voltage! 3. Monitor temperature and voltage. 4(a) If temperature reaches 130F, stop the process. Start again when the battery temperature has been lowered to room temperature. 4(b) When voltage reaches 2.6 vpc, continue charging for 4 hours. Voltage may reach 3 vpc!! Follow 4(a) about temp. 5. After this process, perform a capacity test. This has worked for me with chronically undercharged AGM's of all types. I have never had one vent or go into thermal run away. At the price of these batteries, it is worth the time to try if you have the power source and time. For reference this process is outlined in the Lifeline Technical manual, page 20. http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf Larry Crutcher www.starlightsolar.com la...@starlightsolar.com (928) 941-1660 On Nov 29, 2009, at 6:48 PM, Conrad Geyser wrote: In the vein of us on grid folks who's heads spin when the off grid folks start talking about charge programming and gen set start up parameters. I am servicing an orphaned 48 V off grid system that is only 1 1/2 years old, with 40 Concorde Sun Extender batteries, which are for the most part, shot (about half of them under 10V after a generator EQ charge). I'm sure the batteries have been abused at least after the point that someone lowered the generator start voltage to 40V. We're still doing fact finding on the charge parameters for the PV and wind, but I'm wondering if there is anyone that has an opinion on the Concorde batteries. And at least at this point, I'm glad I had to study for some off grid questions on the NABCEP test, not to mention the conversations on this list. : > Conrad Cotu
[RE-wrenches] Trace 2248 Documentation
This is the great thing about the wrenches list! I've got a qty of old 2248's that I salvaged from a tear out job that have a box on top of them with a small transformer and a circuit board inside and a ribbon cable to connect it two inverters. Now I know that this is a set up for paralleling them. If someone can use these boxes let me know as I almost recycled them today. I've got at least 6 of them. Anyway, I'm in the process of testing and cleaning them up for resale and could use a manual for this inverter. Xantrex's website does not appear to have one. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB Gudgel Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 2:27 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SW Parallel stacking cable Brian Teitelbaum wrote: > > William, > > > > The SW Parallel Stacking Interface (SWI/PAR) was much more than just a > cable (like the Series Stacking Cable -SWI). it was a separate box, > like the Grid Tie Interface (GTI) unit was. It retailed for about $345.00 > > > > Good luck finding one. > > > > Brian Teitelbaum > > AEE Solar > For parallel, I believe a current balancing transformer was involved besides the synchronization cable. That's why it was more involved than just a cable. Since there can be a few volts difference between the 2 stacked SWs. boB > > > > > > > *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org > [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of > *William Miller > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 04, 2009 9:59 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SW Parallel stacking cable > > > > Friends: > > I received an inquiry from a solar contractor looking for a PARALLEL > stacking cable for SW inverters. I have never laid eyes on such a > cable. Did they exist? Does anyone have one or a diagram? > > Many thanks, > > William Miller > > > _Please note new e-mail address and domain: > > _William Miller > Miller Solar > Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607 > email: will...@millersolar.com > http://millersolar.com > <http://millersolar.com/>License No. C-10-773985 > > > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Installer's grant
Bill, It's obvious you feel pretty strongly about this and you have always made a lot of sense over the years. But I'm not seeing your side completely. The business owner still has some costs and risks associated with warranting their own system. If they are troubleshooting/removing/replacing components they either aren't getting paid themselves or they are paying their own employees to do the work. What about the module manufacturer that tanks within the warranty period leaving installer holding the bag on bad modules? It doesn't matter if they are on his (or her) roof or not. I would agree that it's easier this less expensive to support the warranty on your own gear but it's certainly not free. Perhaps the reduced credit is fair but it's not accurate to say the installer has no costs associated with warranty of their own system. Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 10:57 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Installer's grant Roger, Why would a legitimate contractor argue against this reduced incentive (it is not a penalty at all)? This is simply acknowledging the fact that operating a business and providing a long-term system warranty costs money that a self-installer does not have to carry. This actually came from a strong recommendation I made to the California Energy Commission since early in the rebate program over 30% of installations were "self-installed" which was a bunch of BS. These were black market contractors who did not want to carry a system warranty or did not have the credentials to install the system. Once we installed the slightly lower rebate cleaned up most of the black market contracting and the number of self-installed systems went to the real number of less than 5%. Arguing against the lower rebate was a mistake that you are going to regret. It's helpful to learn from history before repeating it. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of roger dixon Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 1:33 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Installer's grant Try the DSIRE website, http://www.dsireusa.org/. It lists both state and federal incentives for renewable energy and energy efficiency. Up until this year, NJ would penalize a "self install", reducing the rebate amount by 15%. We argued against that and they have now removed that penalty. Roger Dixon Certified Wind Site Assessor Distributor & Installer of Solar & Wind Energy Systems Skylands Renewable Energy, LLC 908.337.2057 cell 908.730.6474 fax roger.di...@skylandsre.com www.skylandsre.com SkylandsRenewD66bR03dP01ZL Note: The information contained in this communication is confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may constitute inside information, and is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). It is the property of the sender of this e-mail. If you receive this e-mail in error, do not review, disseminate, or copy it. Unauthorized use, disclosure, or copying of this communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy this communication and all copies thereof, including all attachments. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Chamberlin Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 10:50 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Installer's grant Hello Wrenches, I wanted to see how other states are handling solar grants / rebates on the homes of installers. In Ohio there is a grant program that gives $3.00 / Watt toward residential systems. Eligible installers must be approved by the state, and funds are allotted to the installer. In this years program, there is a "conflict of interest" clause which says that installers, employees of installers and subcontractors of installers are not eligible for any grant funding from the grant received by the installer. It is likely that installers can hire their competition to do installations. Do other states have this conflict of interest clause? Thanks, Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer Office - 740-448-7328 Mobile - 740-856-9648 <>___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar 12 volt DC lighting for school in Haiti
I don't have time to do the exact math but think a small inverter and linear fluorescent is a clear winner of your trying to adequately light the bulk of the class room. Linear fluorescent has lumens per watt in the upper 80's. CFL (DC or AC) is upper 40's and LED is the same as CFL and maybe a little worse depending on whose products you are comparing. You'll also note that it's next to impossible to get Lumens per Watt specs from LED suppliers. It's like the new car company refusing to publish a MPG spec but readily waves a made up spec that alludes to MPG but isn't really. I've been asking the numerous LED manufactures that call on me for samples so I can do side by side testing with CF and LF and NONE of them call back a 2nd time so I'm really still quite nervous about LED for "real" applications. Ok sorry about that LED rant..LED's are cool they are not the panacea they are being made out to be, Two evenly spaced fixtures that use a single 4' tube will almost adequately light the entire room of that size and use about 60 watts total. Total Lumens would be ~5400. Assuming the tare and efficiency losses put the Morningstar 300 at net efficiency of approx 85% that take our lumens per watt to something in the mid 70's which is still much better then DC LED and DC CFL. Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Walt Ratterman Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 5:34 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar 12 volt DC lighting for school in Haiti Hello Lee, Walt here. I will be leaving for Haiti in about a week, and be there for three.. We have done lots of schools. If you are strictly 12V, your choices primarily are 12V CF and LED lights. There are lots of pros and cons to both. The real question is what you intend to use the lights for. If you go to our photo gallery (link from home page: www.sunepi.org ), and check out the Sierra Leone gallery, you will see some clamp-on LED Lights that are 12V and are used for night time studying. They are pretty much task lights and are low level. If you are trying to keep the system really small in terms of watts of solar panels, (and cost) these can be great, but again - the primary question is what will the light be used for. A step up from that would be the 12V CFL's. Might be tough to get in Haiti (for replacements). I can check next week and let you know. If you have any kind of distances involved, you will probably want to consider an inverter (Morningstar SS-300 is great) to avoid the losses associated with 12V dc wiring. Feel free to contact me off line if you want to go over this some more.. Thanks, Walt From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Lee Bristol Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 2:53 PM To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar 12 volt DC lighting for school in Haiti Can anyone recommend lights for a school in Haiti. I am going there in a couple of months to install a 12 volt solar PV system and need to illuminate seven 16 x 20 foot school rooms. I am so confused by all of the light bulb options, base options, CFL vs LED, what wattage is required, etc. I would expect that two fixtures with bulbs would suffice for a room. Any ideas? There is no grid power available.this is really out in the boondocks. Thanks Lee -- Lee Bristol NABCEP Certified Solar Designer/Installer Chief Technology Officer Standard Solar, Inc. 202 Perry Parkway, #7 Gaithersburg, MD 20877 (301) 944-5105 (240) 479-1510 (c) www.standardsolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Seasonal Adjusters
Please accept my apology not being aware of your unique situation and realize that my tone was based on what I interpreted on an unnecessarily less the friendly tone towards the poster of the pictures. On a side note, I imagine the wrenches list is the least of your internet problems. How in the world are you able to do anything on the internet? My outrageously expensive and somewhat unreliable 1.6 MB connection via satellite is almost too slow for most of the web now a days. The very instant I have another option I'm getting off of satellite. Peace, Travis _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Geddes Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 6:48 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Seasonal Adjusters I am not going to get personal but sometimes people in the USA forget there is the rest of teh world out there and it is not as well serviced as their own patch. Just to paint the picture, I live in a valley with a mountain blocking access to the only satellite currently available for broadband, am on a multiplexed phone lne with a 2K download speed and no copper wire BB option. No fibre optic and no wireless. No cell phone coverage. I am not crying a river and I do have valid reasons for being in this position so please don't be so bloody patronising! - Original Message - From: Travis Creswell <mailto:tcresw...@ozarkenergyservices.com> To: 'RE-wrenches' <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Seasonal Adjusters Cry a river dude. There's no excuse for not joining 21st century. Wrenches on dial up please chime in if there's any of you out there. Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Geddes Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:53 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Seasonal Adjusters For goodness sake, posting attachements of 2M or so. There was a discussion on this forum some months ago about large attachments because some of us do not have access to broadband and not by choice! _ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Seasonal Adjusters
Cry a river dude. There's no excuse for not joining 21st century. Wrenches on dial up please chime in if there's any of you out there. Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Geddes Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:53 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Seasonal Adjusters For goodness sake, posting attachements of 2M or so. There was a discussion on this forum some months ago about large attachments because some of us do not have access to broadband and not by choice! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverters (not really a power factor issue)
I've found that well pumps have their own set of strange rules. I'm talking twilight zone stuff. For example we wrenches talk about 2 wire and 3 wire pumps but around here the suppliers and well service people talk about 240 (two wire, I suppose) and 230 (3 wire) pumps. Both of them a 240 single phase in my book. We've had some very odd experiences and are currently in the middle of another one. We have a pump that won't drop the start windings and overloads the pumps controller (not the inverter or the breaker). Does it both on the dual 4kW inverter and the 12kW generator so it's not a power thing. This happened a few years ago at another customer with a different pump brand and inverter. It took out 2 sets of Outback Boards and caused us no end of aggravation. Might pump for a few seconds then overload the inverter or might work fine for weeks then trip the control box. Swapped out the pump and down pipe wire and things were fine but no one, not even the well pump experts could help us figure it out. Normally they work great but when they don't they can drive you crazy. Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Matt Tritt Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 12:44 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverters (not really a power factor issue) I'm hoping that it WILL be embarrassingly simple! I'm glad this wasn't something I installed since you all know what it's like to find errors is someone else's work. ;-) Matt d...@foxfire-energy.com wrote: Boy, This reminds me of a problem I had a few years ago -- don't remember the particulars, except that it was embarrassingly simple -- like a missing connection or something. db Dan Brown President Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverters (not really a power factor issue) From: boB Gudgel <mailto:b...@midnitesolar.com> Date: Sun, August 02, 2009 12:53 am To: RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Darryl Thayer wrote: > The 120 leg to leg, that is strange. Is it possible the Inverter has an output not split phase? perhaps 2 phase or 4 phase? giving the phase to neutral a normal value and the phase to phase a weird value? I do not think thy would build it this way. > > Matt said: "When I checked phase to phase I also only got 120" OK, Matt, that part passed right through me... H (60 Hz H... too) boB > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Matt Tritt <mailto:solar...@charter.net> wrote: > > >> From: Matt Tritt <mailto:solar...@charter.net> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverters (not really a power factor issue) >> To: "RE-wrenches" <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 10:43 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The next time I'm up there I'll take another tech >> with me, plenty of >> meters and go through every DC and AC connection (they all >> looked good >> first time around) to try and get to the bottom of the >> problem prior to >> taking a harder look at Magnum. I have to say, though, that >> I have >> heard a couple of comments that tend to suggest that the >> inverter might >> turn out to be one logical place to look. I like these >> inverters a lot, >> and I really hope that we find some other issue. >> >> >> >> To replay the symptoms, there is no audible or visual (as >> in motor >> starter noises or dimming light) indication that the pump >> is attempting >> to do anything other than sit there when inverter voltage >> is connected >> to it. When the genny power is applied, there is a >> discernable working >> under a load sound from the engine, and the pump works. I >> only had the >> homeowner's lousy dime store anaglog meter to work >> with, but the >> voltage from the inverter was right on 120 volts per leg. >> When I >> checked phase to phase I also only got 120 - that's >> kind of weird, but >> it might simply be the meter. All the household loads run >> flawlessly >> (but this is a pretty fundamental cabin, so the TV and DVD >> player are >> the most exotic things plugged in. The run to the pump is >> adequately >> sized - - - - - in other words, it all seems run of the >> mill, except >> that the pump only ran successfully one time and not on any >> further >> attempts. Golly.. >> >> >>
Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education
What everyone's failed to mention but I suspect we all know is that it's impossible to teach common sense. With out common sense all the training in the world is not going to prepare you for installing a PV system. It's like the manufacturers actually try to make their manuals as complex as possible. Often referring to features that aren't there and software revisions that are many times different then product you just hung on the wall. Some of these manuals are so bad that if you do exactly what they say you could let the factory smoke out of the product. I'm speaking mainly of battery based type products and wind turbines. That's where common sense steps in says "whoa, stop, this ain't right". I've seen DIY'ers with a lot more common sense then many "professionals" plus they really have an investment in the success of their own system. Still, I don't supply product to DIY'ers because in general it's a really bad idea on many levels. Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R. Walters Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 4:40 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education HI Peter; First I agree with almost everything you said. However, I think you took Joel's DIY comment out of context. What he and I are saying, is that we both have customers that are more knowledgeable than many of the "Professional" installers/ designers/ sales people we are seeing in today's market. I was recently at a solar meeting where 25 out of the 30 people in the room had been in the business for less than a year. These guys are running around today doing site evaluations, design quotes on the spot, etc. Very scary. Neither Joel nor I are saying DIY guys are qualified, but we are saying we know a few that are closer than these rooms full of newbies. Professional should mean "dedicated one's career to this field" but right now, "professional" just means working for money. Also once someone has some minimum qualifications to actually start working in this field on their own (ie, licensed electrician with extensive solar training), shouldn't their first solo job be on their own house, not someone else's? Almost everyone on this list went into solar because we knew it was the right thing to do, but that paradigm is changing very fast to "this is the next way to make a fast buck". I'm very discouraged that we can't do more to change that. As Marco mentioned: it's inevitable that a serious fire, injury, or death due to incompetence is gonna whack us all over the head soon. It will hurt our industry, but then maybe we can get back on the track of true professionalism that this list and all of you represent. R. Walters Solarray.com NABCEP # 04170442 On Jul 19, 2009, at 6:43 AM, Peter Parrish wrote: Joel, As a friend, I have enjoyed your perspectives on our business, even though I usually don't agree with everything you say. I have never taken you to task in a public forum, but I can't let your latest post go without comment. There is a reason we call these guys DIYs. They have no experience and limited knowledge; in other words they are not professionals. And, by the way, what do you mean by "so-called professional". I can't believe you tell some one who wants to get into the solar business to first put one on their home as a DIY. Could you in good conscience recommend someone who has never stepped foot on a roof in their lives to spend a week on one in 90-100 degree weather, in physical contact with modules and other components that are cooking at 145 degrees, and DC voltages approaching 600 V? Squinting at a layout/schematic the likes of which they have never seen before? Someone who hasn't used anything more than an 8 ft step ladder or doesn't know what a safety harness is? You also oversimplify: an appropriate apprenticeship for an installer is not the same as that for a design engineer or a salesperson. You don't need to have installed the PV system you own to appreciate how it works. I am personally aware of three DIY solar projects as well as a dozen or so contractor-installed systems that we have been called out to troubleshoot and fix. Even the best DIY project was worse than worst contractor-installed job. All, But here is my main point. I have a pretty good test of what is key in this PV business of ours. I get a call at least once a week from some one who wants me to "help them with a PV installation". In addition to DIYs, I get these calls from B and C-10 contractors, facilities managers, apartment owners, and the like. They will take care of [fill in the part that they thi
Re: [RE-wrenches] Propane Generator
If I may humbly offer different opinion, I no longer specify 1800 RPM generators because they are ridiculously expensive to begin with and when the do break it's long after warranty and they are ridiculously expensive to fix. I've have been pleased with the 3600 RPM Kohler's. We've done numerous propane 12kW (which very nicely match up to a dual oven quad stack) and recently did a 17kW and other then a stuck fuel solenoid which was replaced under warranty by the local dealer at no charge they've been fine. It was completely off grid and we didn't catch any flax although we certainly did a few years ago so around here they seem to have slacked on the off grid no warranty thing. It boils down to simple math for me. We've inherited numerous 1800 RPM generators over the year. These customers have gotten $2000+ bills to replace to $5 relays (etc), some times within a few weeks of the last one. These 3600 RPM Kohlers cost less then $4k new including a pad, enclosure and shipping compared to a lot more for the 1800 RPM units. Put that $8k you save into PV and you'll very likely get 10+ trouble free years out of the 3600 RPM Kohlers. I've got several getting up to 5 yrs old now and they are still as strong as they were the day there were installed. They only get a few hundred hr's or year and a 1/3rd of those could be eliminated if the customers were better energy managers. Just my .02 and it may or may not work in anybody else's climate. Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 6:42 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Propane Generator We use both ONAN & KOHLER. Last time I checked ONAN's smallest was 20KW/240 VAC. KOHLER had more smaller units. The lack of choice is due to EPA compliance and then I think the economy, but not sure on the latter. If it does not get too cold or could be installed indoors [as in a shed] diesel gets more watts / gallon but LPG is cleaner to deal with. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc www.solarwork.com E - d...@solarwork.com V - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 "I'd put my money on solar energy. I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and coal run out before we tackle that." -Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March 1931 -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of roger dixon Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 5:31 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Propane Generator I use a military surplus 15 kW gasoline genset, converted to propane, and wired to an ATS for emergency backup power. I am grid connected, no batteries. It works fine and runs my entire house when I need it. If you want more details, please give me a call. Roger Dixon Certified Wind Site Assessor Skylands Renewable Energy, LLC 908.337.2057 cell 908.730.6474 fax roger.di...@skylandsre.com www.skylandsre.com . -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ian Woofenden Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 2:56 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Propane Generator A client with a remote off-grid system and two OutBack FXs is looking for the right generator to buy. He prefers propane because they already have it on site. Any recommendations? Thanks, Ian -- Ian Woofenden , Senior Editor, Home Power magazine Subscriptions: $24.95 per year PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA 800-707-6585 (US), 541-512-0220 or download free sample issue at <http://www.homepower.com> ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] sales to-date
U...Marcowe're you going to share your numbers :)? A few months ago our gross sales were down nearly 70% compared to the same period the year before. But 2008 1st & 2nd quarters we're some of the best we'd ever had the last 15 years. We've since landed some good sized jobs (for us anyway) and are now down less then 30%. We might catch up by the end of the year but I'm certainly not in a panic if we don't. I'm enjoying the lighter work load plus net profit is noticeable higher which I suppose is all that matters. Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 1:07 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] sales to-date Compared to the first five months of last year, how would any of you who care to respond compare your year-to-date sales in 2009? Thanks, marco Marco Mangelsdorf, President 69 Railroad Avenue, A-7 Hilo, Hawai'i 96720 (808) 969-3281, 934-7462 facsimile www.provision-solar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] pay for sales leads
1) N/A/no (never paid for one) but one pay for service gave me a lead a trial basis which of course wasn’t any where near my definition of prequalified. 2) No, but thank you very much 3) Rarely (less then 5 and I can’t even be sure) This very timely. I also have seen an explosion of pay for lead services just in the last few weeks. Service Magic has been one of the most persistent and has called numerous times over the last 6 months. They are big time players in the contractor lead referral business. Name the trade and they will help you find them. Apparently they are on a push to sign up green (barf) contractors. Energy auditors, solar PV and solar thermal. They want $42/each for PV leads! Told them no thanks but they really put the hard sale on me. I told them if they would offer a no quibble money back guarantee I would happy to try them out and that promptly ended the conversation. Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services HYPERLINK "http://www.ozarkenergyservices.com/"www.ozarkenergyservices.com _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel Davidson Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] pay for sales leads Three Questions: 1) Has any wrench closed a sale on a paid-for lead? 2) Has any wrench closed a sale on the free leads that I gave you? 3) Has any wrench closed a sale on the free leads that other wrenches gave you? Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: HYPERLINK "mailto:solarwo...@gmail.com"Kirpal Khalsa To: HYPERLINK "mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] pay for sales leads We used HYPERLINK "http://find-solar.com"find-solar.com when they originally were aligned with ASES..then they had some internal mish mash and ASES decided to turn it into a money making venturethey like all the other offers we have been getting, wanted to charge for "qualified" leads..we found them to offer the most expensive "qualified" lead match referral program with each lead costing in the neighborhood of $119.00...The one benefit of using their service is the funds go to help ASES,- a worthwhile and deserving organization in my opinionAll the othere private lead referral services have been offering their services for in the neighborhood of $14 to $45..We tried one of them and found that our idea of "qualified" did not match their idea of "qualified".after trying to convince them that our idea of "qualified" was the most important and them not being flexible we decided to stop using their service...we got a few leads but because their vetting process didn't weed out folks who only thought of solar as a cool product of the future that didn't warrant any expense we never got a job out of it... When HYPERLINK "http://find-solar.com"find-solar.com switched to cooler planet.we transfrered our business to find solar.orgthey were still free and we recieved at least a few good quality leads.they now offer their service for a price but offer a variety of other benefits such as placing ad words with google and other search engines..among other things. We have decided to back off on using any of these referral services as they seem to be coming out of the woodwork and we get most of our leads from prior customers and other state programs which list licensed installers...These are of course free services I would love to hear of some success stories from some of these referral servicees...unitl i do, i will be refrainig from using them Cheers. -- Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer Renewable Energy Systems HYPERLINK "http://www.oregonsolarworks.com"www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-592-3958 o On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Mendocino Solar Service mailto:mso...@mcn.org"mso...@mcn.org> wrote: So how about the free lead-generating outfits? Findsolar.com was started by ASES I believe, and is now "Cooler Planet". Anyone get results there or elsewhere? Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 On Apr 22, 2009, at 6:20 AM, Jeff Yago wrote: Unless you have been in this business about one week, you most likely are receiving tons of emails from web sites offering all kinds of great solar sales leads for a fee. The fee is usually in the $15 to $20 range, and they promise these are "pre-qualified" leads in that a filtering process has been used to weed out those not really serious. Considering we get lots of sales leads from other web sites that do not charge anything, and have lots
Re: [RE-wrenches] Energy Savings - What is Real?
Thanks for this paper Joel! It was very timely. Just this week, one of my commercial customers (a grocery store chain) asked me about "a power factor gizmo that their greeting card vendor was trying to sell them". I politely explained that the energy conservation industry had serious doubts about such black boxes to which they replied "don't you think this person would be wary of selling something that would jeopardize his key business". I told them that from I've seen such devices are always sold by non-tech savvy people who truly believe in their product then printed this paper off with the pertinent comments highlighted and gave it to them. I still don't think they caught the irony of the Greeting Card vendor was selling this. While were on the subject of magic boxes. Watch the top video in below link. On the residential and commercial installs he tells you to watch the power factor (which does improve) but at the top of the meter you also see kW which they do not highlight. You'll have to pause the video to catch it but it hilarious that they think no one is going to. It doubles for the car wash and goes up by a factor of 20 for the house! See if you can pick out any other irregularities. I'm not an EE but looks like some funny business to me. Maybe someone can explain it because I can't http://www.power-save1200.com/1200.html Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel Davidson Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:54 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Energy Savings - What is Real? It frustrating to work on a customer's RE system and have to tell them that they are being bamboozled by sales pitches for so-called energy saving devices. You might want to share this paper with your customers. The latest Association of Energy Engineers (AEE) quarterly Energy Engineering Journal has an paper titled "Power Quality Solutions and Energy Savings - What is Real?" See http://www.plantservices.com/wp_downloads/pdf/0903_Power_Quality.pdf "The problem is that some of these solution providers have significantly overstated the savings and the customers are deceived. What these solutions provide excellent protection, they often provide very little, if any, energy savings." Joel Davidson ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.43/2043 - Release Date: 4/6/2009 6:22 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.52/2053 - Release Date: 4/10/2009 6:27 PM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Application
I really appreciate the responses to my questions. Marv, can you address Bill L's comment that some faults could require the EnPhase EMU unit to clear? That's good point about shading which isn't a problem on this roof. Regarding the "wasted glass" and "third module" of the KC120's. Currently these 3 modules charge a battery bank with only a few rarely used lights on it. Is used to be more frequently used but not now so the batteries are spending most of their time at float thus the glass is already wasted. The third module will continue to charge the same battery bank. Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marv Dargatz Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 7:32 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Application Travis, You are exactly right. As long as you do not exceed the max open circuit voltage or short circuit current rating you're perfectly fine. Even if you put 300W of module on the inverter, it will just hit power limit until the irradiance declines enough to let the MPPT work again. No problem. No damage to the module or the inverter. The "smoke threshold" voltage is many volts above our stated maximum input voltage. Of course, it probably doesn't make economic sense to waste that much glass. In your case, two Kyoceras in series will work just fine. Depending on the age of the modules, soiling, etc., you'll probably have less than 240W peak. I'd guess you will seldom see the inverters hit power limit. This configuration will have no impact on MTBF or reliability. Do be aware that if you shade one of the two modules, you'll limit the output of both modules in the series string. No worse than a standard string inverter. We chose a Tyco CPC connector for cost, reliability, and environmental reasons. If you can find a connector that meets the demanding NEMA6 requirements at a better price, please let me know. We're constantly looking for ways to reduce product cost without degrading reliability. Hope this helps. See Ya! Marv Enphase Energy 707 763-4784 x7016 Travis Creswell wrote: > Greetings Wrenches, > > I have customer with a three module array made up of 120 watt Kyocera's that > charge the battery bank underutilized of “hobby system”. > > It spends most time in float plus were adding a 5.5 kW direct grid tied > array that require us to move the existing array so the customer is > interested in putting an EnPhase inverter on two of the Kyocera 120’s. > > I’ve looked over the EnPhase specs and don’t see a reason why I can’t wire > two KC120’s in series and feed the EnPhase with them. I do see them listing > it’s compatibility of up 225 watt modules but am having a hard time getting > much further. I didn’t find a max input wattage so what happens if I put > 240 watts to the EnPhase? Does the magic smoke come out on day one or does > MTBF drop from 32,895 years to 80 years? > > Even is the EnPhase's max output is 200 watts it's still more kWh/day then > the hobby system that spending most of it's time in float. I can see no > difference between one 72 cell module and two 36 cell module in series. > > Also it looks like there is unique connector coming off the AC side of the > module. How do I deal with that? > > Best and thanks in advance! > Travis Creswell > Ozark Energy Services > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.43/2043 - Release Date: 4/6/2009 > 6:22 AM > > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.45/2045 - Release Date: 4/7/2009 6:41 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus
[RE-wrenches] Enphase Application
Greetings Wrenches, I have customer with a three module array made up of 120 watt Kyocera's that charge the battery bank underutilized of “hobby system”. It spends most time in float plus were adding a 5.5 kW direct grid tied array that require us to move the existing array so the customer is interested in putting an EnPhase inverter on two of the Kyocera 120’s. I’ve looked over the EnPhase specs and don’t see a reason why I can’t wire two KC120’s in series and feed the EnPhase with them. I do see them listing it’s compatibility of up 225 watt modules but am having a hard time getting much further. I didn’t find a max input wattage so what happens if I put 240 watts to the EnPhase? Does the magic smoke come out on day one or does MTBF drop from 32,895 years to 80 years? Even is the EnPhase's max output is 200 watts it's still more kWh/day then the hobby system that spending most of it's time in float. I can see no difference between one 72 cell module and two 36 cell module in series. Also it looks like there is unique connector coming off the AC side of the module. How do I deal with that? Best and thanks in advance! Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.43/2043 - Release Date: 4/6/2009 6:22 AM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery impedance analyzers
Hi Larry, I’ve often wondered about them. My local battery “superstore” (everything from cell phone to golf carts) had been using them for the last few years to test automotive starter batteries and deep cycles but the last time I was in there I noticed they’d gone back to the old standby resistance/carbon pile style testers. I inquired and wasn’t able to get any exacts but the summary was they were not happy with them. I’m curious to know your findings on both fronts. Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services HYPERLINK "http://www.ozarkenergyservices.com/"www.ozarkenergyservices.com _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 7:08 PM To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery impedance analyzers Hello Wrenches, Is anyone using an impedance type battery analyzer for lead acid batteries? If so, what do you have and how has it worked out. I have seen prices from $200 to $7500 and I'm sure there is a world of difference. I have been using a pulser circuit I built about 4 years ago to restore nearly dead AGM batteries but I have not had any sophisticated method of verifying before and after performance. I perform a constant current equalization with no voltage limit and then leave the battery on the pulser for a few weeks. This works great and I have restored and sold a few used AGM batteries that would have gone to the recycler. Today our battery buyer just picked up another 15,400 lb. of batteries from us. Yep, they were mostly murdered! I would like to be able to restore more of them. Kindest Regards, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar (928) 941-1660 Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation Mailing Address (NO SHIPPING): 11881 S Fortuna Rd. #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 Shipping and retail store (NO MAIL): 2998 Shari Ave Yuma, AZ 85365 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.29/2024 - Release Date: 3/26/2009 7:12 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.29/2024 - Release Date: 3/26/2009 7:12 AM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] How large is too large?
Maybe they could go “off-grid” with a cogeneration unit powered by biodiesel. That could make a lot of $ sense depending on their annual heating load and local kWh price. Our local biodiesel plant sells it cheaper then propane for now. Rough math is 1/3rd electricity, 1/3rd recoverable heat, and 1/3rd waste heat that you can’t get back. You could still take the some/most of the lighting, refrigeration and water pumping off grid with large but still standard set of battery based inverters, wind and solar. Have you pointed out that batteries aren’t exactly environmentally friendly and reduce the efficiency of the system? That might trigger them to battery less grid tie. FYI, HUP now has a 1990 AH battery. Of course that’s still way too many stings to get to 19,000 AH (900+ kWh, wow) Speaking of big, high quality batteries; Special thanks to Jamie Surrette for helping me out last week. I was able to successfully weld a new terminal back on a Surrette 4v 1100 AH battery with his help. Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:03 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] How large is too large? We had a similar lead come up a year ago, although the lodge in this case was 22 miles from mains power and 10K feet up. Thank goodness we had contracted $3500 in design fees up front to do all of the load projection and design research work. We determined that the batteries were the limiting factor: at 48V, about 2,000 amp-hours, and two or three strings max (depends on expected DOD), we couldn't provide a battery bank large enough. The only solution we arrived at was using Sunny Islands in 3 phase, redundant generators, duplicate services, Sunny Boys on arrays, and Windy Boys on two Provens to build an AC-coupled microgrid. That way we had duplicate battery banks. When we presented the general design approach to the owner's (common household name, largest private landowner in the US) representatives through the electrical engineer, with a preliminary estimate around $700K, they decided to run the lodge on generators. Allan Sindelar HYPERLINK "mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com"allan(at)positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe NM 87507 505 424-1112 -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Dickson Hello Wrenches, I have a customer that has really likes the thought of being off-grid and they have asked me to design a system for their “lodge”. I have kicked and screamed to get them to consider a grid-tied system using their existing grid service—to no avail. After doing a preliminary load analysis, I have determined that it would take ~35kW of solar and a couple Bergey Excels for it to work along with a 19,000Ah battery bank. So, how big is too big? If we were to move forward on this, what would be the major obstacles/show stoppers besides the price (as price is not an issue)? What are some of the largest battery based systems that you have installed or heard of? Any input is welcome. . .besides being told just to run away from this one. . . REgards, Mark Dickson Oasis Montana Inc. HYPERLINK "http://www.oasismontana.com/"; \nHYPERLINK "http://www.oasismontana.com/"; \nwww.oasismontana.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.5/1979 - Release Date: 3/1/2009 5:46 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.5/1979 - Release Date: 3/1/2009 5:46 PM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Terminal Repair
Hello Wrenches, So I've got 4v x 1104 AH battery that took a beating whilst being moved to it's 4th home in 10 years. One of the soldered on L terminals got broke off. Battery itself still works "fine". I was able to vice grip the battery cable and lug on there and determined that it charges and discharges normally. I've got a replacement L-terminal from Surrette and am preparing to make repairs. I have to remove the remnants of the old L terminal and solder back on the new one. It's a pretty large assemble. It's approximately 6 inches long x 2 inches wide and weighs at least a few lbs. I familiar with sweating copper but have never soldered lead to lead. I'm sure someone has done this and can offer me some advice on what to be careful about. I only get one shot at this. I have to remove (unsolder) the old terminal from battery and solder the new one on. Do I flux it and what sort of flux? Does the new terminal just melt around the "nubs" on the battery or do I need to add material (lead?). Thanks, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.25/1955 - Release Date: 2/16/2009 6:55 AM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
Yeah, spooky pictures. Certainly that was non-glass glazing. I can make out a way too unsecured wire at the top left of the array but that might have been secured before the conflagration event. Could these panels have been "home made" by someone in their garage? I regularly loose cells for sale on E-Bay and in the back of home power. Someone's buying them. Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Wind-sun.com Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:03 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire At the very least, it shows a good reason to not use any of those off-brand (or no brand) cheap unlisted panels that have been floating around lately. .. Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun .. - Original Message - From: "Drake Chamberlin" To: "RE-wrenches" Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire > The last post on your discussion forum, from the person identified as BB, > looks the most likely. The modules were large (250 W), corner mounted, > with plastic (instead of glass) "glazing." The panels were able to flex > under wind load, and damage the internal conductors. It looks to me from > the before photo, that the modules are already bowed a bit. That could be > an optical illusion. > > That the "glazing" was plastic is evidenced by the fact that it burned up. > If the material was glass, it would not have disintegrated the way it did. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.20/1943 - Release Date: 2/10/2009 7:20 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.20/1943 - Release Date: 2/10/2009 7:20 AM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Snowman Armed with Solar Powered Flamethrower
Before we get told to stop telling stories I have got to tell this one….. I have a solar cooker made by ZomeWorks. It’s about 4’ diameter reflector on stand with hole in middle and you set your pot in the hole. I used to keep it on my patio until I came home one day and noticed a 1” deep x 1” wide x 8” long scorch burned into one of the 4x4 posts. Apparently the wind had blown the cover off and moved the reflector into just the right position. How my entire porch didn’t catch on fire and take my house with it I don’t know but needless to say it got put inside from that point on. Travis _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Todd Cory Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 1:31 PM To: gilliga...@gmail.com; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Snowman Armed with Solar Powered Flamethrower It is wise to consider the power of the sun. I used to keep a gallon jug of water in my work truck for drinking. One day I noticed it had magnified the sun and burned a long hole in the seat. I am lucky it did not start the truck on fire! Todd Matt Lafferty wrote: Uh, oh! Frosty's got a flamethrower! Interesting application for solar concentrator disguised as snowman... HYPERLINK "http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09073.html"http://www.cpsc.gov/ cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09073.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.5 - Release Date: 1/7/2009 12:00 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.5 - Release Date: 1/7/2009 12:00 AM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16 Uber Model #'s
Hello All, I noticed that Trojan L-16's aren't simply L-16's anymore. I can find at least 6 models. Our local battery warehouse stocks L-16E-AC. According to Trojan's website it's a floor scrubber battery (like it always has been), 370AH @ C/20 and weighs 100lbs. Under the floor scrubber they also have an L-16H, P and G. Under the renewable energy they have the L-16RE-A and an L-16RE-B rated at 325AH (115 lbs) and 370AH (118lbs) respectively. They also have a 2v battery in a L-16 case now. I couldn't find any DOD vs. cycle curves on their website so I'm curious if the RE batteries really are better for RE applications. I remember the general consensus was that the original RE "optimized" battery was actually worse for RE applications because they increased the AH from 350 to 390 by making the plates taller but did not make the battery taller. This left less room for the crud (sulphate) that fills up the bottom of the battery case to build up before built up to the point where it took the battery out. Has anybody looked into this? My gut tells me that for the part time off gridder the battery that my local warehouse stocks is just fine. Happy New Year! Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.1 - Release Date: 12/28/2008 12:00 AM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Skystream 3.7 experiences?
These folks are "eagerly" sharing their real world experiences. http://blog.keepturning.com/ Their comments mirror what we are hearing from owners in our region. You can also go to the Fat Spaniel and find some production numbers. Remember they advertise 400kWh month in a 12mph site. I was recently contacted by a local non-profit that installed 3 of them this spring. After the first week there has not been a single time when all three were working. When people ask them the about why only one of the turbines are spinning their response is "we're working on optimizing the efficiency right now". I guess that's one way to say it. Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Roy Butler Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 5:23 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Skystream 3.7 experiences? Kurt, In a nutshell.this unit is not ready for prime time yet. Lots of bugs and glitches. Not to mention much lower than expected energy production. Might have something to do with those little fence posts they call towers ;-) And that Smart foundation only works on towers 60' or less. Too short for most sites and not a good height for energy production anyway. Believe me.most of us would love to see plug and play/ modular tower and turbine systems but there's no such beast yet! Best advice..take a wait and see approach. Roy Butler NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46 Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com www.nationalsolarsupply.com Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. Kurt Albershardt wrote: > Anyone have realworld experience with the SWWP Skystream 3.7 they can > share? > > The AnemErgonics foundation kit looks fairly well thought out. > > > > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1861 - Release Date: 12/22/2008 11:23 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1861 - Release Date: 12/22/2008 11:23 AM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Adios Solar Pathfinder
Has anyone mentioned the Wiley Asset tool yet? It does come with a digital camera but that’s not what you’re paying for. It’s the snazzy machined tripod mount and the software that you’re paying for (I assume). Software could be a little more user friendly but once you get the hang of it, it does have a nice output but to print the results you have to do some sort of trickery with the “print screen” command which is dicey matter for me anyway. In Wiley’s defense they’d probably have to charge a lot more if they made that software “all things to all people”. You do need to download the pictures to a computer to get any sort of output. I usually do this on site with my laptop to make sure I’ve got what I need before I drive off. Happy Holidays! Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Lombard Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 10:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Adios Solar Pathfinder Jim- I have used the Solar Eye and I was not terribly impressed. I have always been more tan satisfied with the Solar Pathfinder. my 2kw On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:17 AM, North Texas Renewable Energy Inc mailto:nt...@earthlink.net"nt...@earthlink.net> wrote: Wrenches, my truck was burglarized a couple of nights ago and my circa 1995 Solar Pathfinder, in the steel box, was stolen from the floor behind the drivers seat. It hasn't showed up at any pawnshops locally yet and I don't expect I will ever see it again. So it might be time to upgrade. I use the Solar Pathfinder Assistant software which produces a easy to understand graphical document. But I wanted to find what other products the Wrenches community uses and the pros and cons on those products. Since I already have a digital camera it seems redundant to invest in a device with an attached camera unless that camera can be used independently for the balance of site survey pictures. Thanks as always Jim Duncan North Texas Renewable Energy Inc 817.917.0527 HYPERLINK "mailto:nt...@earthlink.net"; \nnt...@earthlink.net HYPERLINK "http://www.ntrei.com"; \nwww.ntrei.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: HYPERLINK "mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: HYPERLINK "http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org"; \nhttp://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: HYPERLINK "http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org"; \nhttp://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: HYPERLINK "http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm"; \nwww.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: HYPERLINK "http://www.members.re-wrenches.org"; \nwww.members.re-wrenches.org -- Jason Lombard Open Hand Solar LLC. Certified Sustainable Building Adviser HYPERLINK "mailto:openhandso...@gmail.com"openhandso...@gmail.com 505 795 8646 "I'd put my money on solar energy… I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and coal run out before we tackle that." —Thomas Edison No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1861 - Release Date: 12/22/2008 11:23 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1861 - Release Date: 12/22/2008 11:23 AM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Wood shop lighting
Continuous rows of four 4’ lamp T-8 fixtures (8’ long) on 8’-12’ centers would be the ideal lighting system in terms of performance, efficiency, installed price and maintenance cost. T-5’s are actually slightly less efficient and really don’t make sense at mounting heights less then 20’. Plus T-5 lose more light output then T-8 as temperatures decrease which starts to become noticeable at 60f and really noticeable at 50f. Most shops are kept warm unless they are being used and on the colder days it could take hours for the T-5 lights to get to full output. I suggest continuous rows because that gives the owner a very uniformly lit space and tons of flexibility when he decides to reconfigure the shop in the future. “I can’t put this machine over there because that’s the dark corner”. The fewer the fixtures the worse the shadows which are a bad thing in work shops and continuous rows are essentially shadow free. For energy purposes I would switch every other fixture for times when not as much light is needed. IE; 42’ long shop/8’ long fixtures = 5 fixtures per row with 1’ gap on each end of the row, 3 fixtures per row on one switch and two on the other. I would suggest the basic commodity grade 8’ white painted fixture that every electrical supplier stocks plenty of. Typical cost is $40-$45 each. No need for hoods (reflectors) at the heights you mention especially if the ceiling is white. 5000k 800 series lamps are the best lamp for this application. F32T8SPX50 would be the GE part number and your local supplier can easily cross that with what ever brand they carry. Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff Wongstrom/ Sarah Anderson Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 9:58 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wood shop lighting Hello Wrenches, We have a client with an off grid wood shop and would like your recommendations for the most efficient lighting options. The shop is powered by a quad stack, 4.8KW of PV and a 20KW genset. The main part of the shop is 42'x22' with ceiling heights varying from 10-12', there are benches along two walls, and machinery work stations at several locations. There is good day lighting and we have stressed the importance of light colored surfaces. We have had both T8 and T5 florescent lights with electronic ballasts recommended. From numbers that the electrical wholesaler provided, the watts/lumen between T5's and T8's appear to be similar. However, the T5's are more expensive and have higher maintenance costs but may require fewer fixtures. Is one more appropriate than the other or are there better, more efficient, wood shop lighting options? Jeff Thirsty Lake Solar PO Box 538 Eureka, MT 59917 Jeff Wongstrom NABCEP Certified Solar Installer 406-889-5324 HYPERLINK "http://www.thirstylakesolar.com/"thirstylakesolar.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.15 - Release Date: 12/5/2008 12:00 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.15 - Release Date: 12/5/2008 12:00 AM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] hydro coils
Assuming you’re talking about the units that actually installed in the fire box; I’ve actually disconnected a few over the years because they overheated the water to point of regularly blowing the pop off valve of the domestic hot water heater. It’s pretty spooky to rely on the P&T valve in that manner. These were retired folks that didn’t use much hot water and plenty of time to keep the wood stove stoked. Hyrdo Coils (etc) would probably work OK for an installation that didn’t keep the wood stove going 24hrs/day, used plenty of hot water and had a very attentive owner. But to answer Todd’s question. I haven’t seen a new one for long time. Seems like I’ve seen a few NOS ones on Ebay and in the dusty corners of wood stove dealers. There was a product that actually installed on the outside of the firebox in such a manner that the heat was conducted to it. I don’t remember who made it and it’s been years since I’ve seen it. Of course it wouldn’t be near as efficient but that would be a good thing in this case plus it didn’t void the stoves warranty because you didn’t have to drill any holes into the stove. Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 8:40 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] hydro coils Todd, Just a friendly point - I know you probably know---be real careful doing that. That use to be an option on some of the woodstoves I sold 25 years ago until,.BOOM! ..DIY not recommended. Holt E. Kelly Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products 500 Jewell Dr. Waco,Tx. 76712 254-751-9111 254-228-9621 (cell) HYPERLINK "mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]"[EMAIL PROTECTED] HYPERLINK "http://www.holteksolar.com"www.holteksolar.com - Original Message - From: HYPERLINK "mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]"Todd Cory To: HYPERLINK "mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 11:57 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] hydro coils I have a client that is wanting to add a water loop in their wood stove. Does anyone know if the old SS hydro coils are still made? Todd -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1769 - Release Date: 11/5/2008 7:17 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1769 - Release Date: 11/5/2008 7:17 AM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Utility disco DC?
Keep in mind that a battery based system could sell to grid with no PV input. Yes, it would require reprogramming (which can be easily done on site) and ignoring the fact that your can’t do for very long or without some other charging source. Our local utilities have approximately an equal mix of battery-less and battery based systems so they pretty much take the stance that the disco must be on the AC side. They typically are unwavering about requiring the disco to be within feet of the meter which would negate the benefit of installing it on the DC side in my experience. Regards, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Brearley Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 3:28 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Utility disco DC? One of my previous colleagues negotiated this on a high profile project in a new jurisdiction. The inspector didn’t have a problem with this. You should definitely talk to the AHJ. It’s not a difficult case to make: no PV input = no inverter output. Good luck, David On 9/2/08 2:56 PM, "Drake Chamberlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hello Wrenches Can the lockable utility disconnect be DC? Has anyone tried this? On an add on system we found this had been done. It would be convenient to use this method. Thanks, Drake _ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: HYPERLINK "http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org"http:/ /lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org David Brearley, Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Direct: 541.261.6545 Fax: 541.512.0343 Visit our Web site at solarprofessional.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.6.14/1647 - Release Date: 9/2/2008 6:02 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.6.14/1647 - Release Date: 9/2/2008 6:02 AM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] offgrid system question
1 ton = 12,000 BTU's SEER = how many BTU's per kW (Since you asked about "rough electrical load" for this equation we're going to ignore the complexities for EER vs. SEER, COP at varying outdoor temps and so on. We'll leave that for someone else to discuss if they desire) Plus you'll want to add approximately 150 watts per ton for the air handler Assuming a 13 SEER AC unit the math is; 2.5 tons x 12,000 BTU's = 30,000 BTU's 30,000 BTU's/13 SEER= 2.3 kW 2.5 tons x 150 watts/ton for air handling = 375 watts For a total running kW of ~2.7. That's how I do it. Doesn't mean it's the right or only way. Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 9:23 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] offgrid system question Can someone tell me how to convert AC "tons" to rough electrical load? or is there a way? I've got a customer who is wanting to install a AC unit and they tell me its a 2.5 ton and uses 9000 watts. ( they haven't given me make or model yet) thanks, jay ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.6.6/1627 - Release Date: 8/22/2008 6:48 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.6.6/1627 - Release Date: 8/22/2008 6:48 AM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] offgrid system question
Whoa… I think the AC not starting is only part of the problem and I’m not talking about technical issues. 3.5 tons at 13 seer is going to have a running kW of 4kW, give or take and on hot days that’s going to take the battery to 50% in less then 5 hrs assuming no other loads are on. We’ve recently looked into this for a customer that spontaneously added 3 ton 13 seer unit to his part time off grid system without telling us until it was already installed. Of course it was never part of the original design but that’s an entirely different story. Thank heavens we have a good relationship with this customer further bolstered by contract clearly detailing what the system was designed to do. According to everything we can find and the HVAC installer you need a minimum of 5 to 7.5 times the running current to start an AC unit. A “hard start” capacitor will not help because all it does is give the AC unit more amps to start but do not actually reduce the starting surge. Apparently as AC’s age they can actually get harder to start so these units help with that. I’ve not come across the “soft start” you mention unless your talking about 3 phase stuff. The Xantrex XW4024 at this project will not start his 3 ton unit. But of course, it’s not that simple. This is a tiny off grid system with one string of L16’s. When the AC attempts to start we observe the battery voltage dropping on the fully charged battery bank to 21v while the kW reading on the XW never goes past the mid 2’s. While this is happening the XW’s voltage drops L-L voltage drops to 156v. The inverter does not fault out and only shows a Low battery voltage error message. So my theory is the XW can’t hold the 240 L-L during the surge which inherently reduces the surge thus self limiting the AC unit and preventing the inverter from going into a fault mode. But that’s just my guess. Xantrex technical did pick up the phone but they were pretty puzzled why the inverter didn’t go into fault mode. Our solution is to install a 17kW generator and run the AC off the generator only. The generator and a propane tank are a 100% solution and they were cheaper then adding inverters and batteries which we were pretty sure had a pretty good chance of not being a 100% solution. Since it’s a rarely used off grid cabin the propane usage wont’ be terrible. IMHO, Max, I suggest that you don’t even try to run the AC off of the inverter or even think about adding a 2nd one because it’s always going to be problematic. Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Max Balchowsky Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] offgrid system question Dear wrenches, going to look at a system installed by others and would like some input from some of you with more off grid experience than I have ( 4 systems over the years). the system was put on a new home - off grid 20 sharp ND123UJF panels 4 modules in series - 5 parrallel strings, 2460 total array dc voltage. mppt 60-150 charge controller, 12 sun extender sealed AGM batteries, 305 AH at 12 vdc, wired for 915 AH at 48 volt DC. The system is tripping off when the AC unit trys to start - AC is comfortmaker 3.5 ton 13 seer. They say start up inrush is 104 amps (sounds high to me) and they put a DST 10 soft start on the unit (I think that's just a big capacitor). I haven't been on site yet but it sounds to me that they just didn't design enough inverter capacity into the system.. What are your thoughts? Max Balchowsky SEE Systems No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.6.4/1617 - Release Date: 8/17/2008 12:58 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.6.4/1617 - Release Date: 8/17/2008 12:58 PM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] ice accumulation
What about insulating the back of the array so the solar heat gain would take the panels above freezing more often and for more hours a day? Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Young Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 7:13 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] ice accumulation Hi Wrenches, I know this is a nice cool subject for these (hopefully) sun filled days. I am working on a telecom system that has some issues with ice accumulation on the panels that essentially shut the system down mid winter. Wondering if anyone has suggestions to remedy the ice buildup. It's an extreme mountaintop environment with very high winds at times and the ice cakes up to 2" - 3" on surfaces. There are some pics here: www.solareagle/temp/ice.html Access to the site in winter is totally out of the question so we are hoping to find some ideas that might prevent or reduce the ice accumulation. When the ice shuts the panels down the communications go down. Someone suggested a slippery spray like RainX might help to prevent accumulation but I think it would quickly be washed off/worn out and I don't know the uv issues that might reduce power output. Ron earthRight Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.6.3/1611 - Release Date: 8/14/2008 6:20 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.6.3/1611 - Release Date: 8/14/2008 6:20 AM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question
The temp sensor suggestion makes a lot of sense. Also, what is the specific gravity? I suspect they are sulphated, maybe severely. But that's easily remedied with an equalization charge with the generator. We have a 24v single string of the very same batteries in an off grid system and if they don't get at least quarterly the max charge possible from a dual stack of SW4024's and 12kW Kohler funny things start to happen. That's about 200 amps depending on a few factors. Voltage and trimetric will indicate a full charge but the SG is way down below 50% and of course SG typically trump other indicators. (IE, water wasn’t just added) Warning: Be very careful about equalizing with the generator in the summer time. I "know a guy" who had a set HUP's do a thermal run away from "him" just last summer and "he" really thought he was watching things closely. Rob Shappell called "him" back at 9PM Rob's time from a birthday party on a Friday night to explain what happened to meer, I mean that guy I know. Much appreciation to Rob and Jean! They are great at supporting their product. Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 11:27 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question I presume there is a temp sensor on the CC and inverter. And if the battery temps are higher then the voltage termination would be lower which could explain it. Or, I have seen them get off calibration which would cause a difference in charge set points. jay peltz power On Aug 2, 2008, at 10:29 AM, Drake Chamberlin wrote: > Hi Allan, > > On a previous thread, it seems that Surrette batteries like a fast > charge periodically. At one time (as I recall) is was recommended > to give them a C/5 once a week, but the company said that was not > necessary. I don't know of C/13 to C/18 charges would be enough. > Can your customer run the generator for a quick charge after > cycling them down? > > Drake > > At 08:29 AM 8/2/2008, you wrote: >> Did this customer check the voltage of the individual batteries/ >> cells? Maybe there is a weak cell developing. Sometimes EQing can >> take a long time. I do not "buy" that batteries need to be cycled >> to stay healthy. >> >> Todd >> >> jay peltz wrote: >> >>> ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 6:59 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1586 - Release Date: 8/1/2008 6:59 PM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Painting Anodized AL Racking (was Battery charging with XW series equipment)
What about powder coating? I bet you have one close by. In my relatively rural low population density area I’ve have access to 2 or 3 powder coaters within 50 miles so I would make the naive assumption that there are a lot of them out there. It’s very affordable. They normally charge by the pound in my experience. They might have to acid wash (or ??) the pieces first but they would know all of that and would be able to tell you how well it would do in the sunlight etc. And I’ve had good experiences with our local Sherwin Williams store. In some cases they even send a guy out to inspect to make they recommend right system and prep procedure. Best, Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 2:52 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging with XW series equipment Call your local paint supply, I use Sherwin Williams, they always seem to have the answer for off the wall paint challenges. Thanks - Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc www.solarwork.com E - [EMAIL PROTECTED] V - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Parrish Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 12:52 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging with XW series equipment Wrenches, We have a high-end client for whom we are installing a 12 kWp system on an essentially flat roof. The terrain slopes down from the street to the house (and there is an additional 2.5 deg slope on the roof in the same direction), hence making the array visible at some point away from the house going towards the street. The client has asked us to paint the back tilt-legs and rails of the array the same color as the PV module frames. The reason being the legs and rails are clear anodized (ProSolar) and the modules are black anodized (BP SX3200). We are talking about only the back of one row, as the front of the row is so low as to be truly out of sight. The question: what do we need to do to prep and paint the clear anodized tilt legs and rails? I’m hoping that a quick TSP wash and rinse, followed by a primer appropriate for Al, followed by a high quality exterior paint. Any suggestions on primer and finish coat products? We want this to look good and last a long time. Thanks, - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President California Solar Engineering, Inc. 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065 Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885 CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26 [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 8:30 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging with XW series equipment Hi Todd, I agree. I sure like what I've seen, but that is a large hole, jay peltz power On Jul 24, 2008, at 10:07 PM, Todd Cory wrote: I wish they would address the question I asked about why they neglected to include an amp hour meter that communicates with their charge controller on a battery based system. The lack of an accurate metering system is one of the biggest elephants in the room with this inverter/CC system. Todd Allan Sindelar wrote: No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.5.6 - Release Date: 7/25/2008 12:00 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.5.6 - Release Date: 7/25/2008 12:00 AM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/
