Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
If you have 120/208 you have WYE. How much power do you have to put into the
grid? The question if you need back up power what is it for? if it is simple
plug loads or lighting you might serve the customer well with single phase
backup. If you need 3-phase back-up I find it hard to accept that they need it
in one box. The Xantrex is three seperate inverters on one board that looks
like 1 box. The three 120 volt units make 120/208 three phase.If you have
120/240 three phase you have Delta, high leg. Other combinations of three
phase are possible, but more rare.
I am old and I have never seen a problem of 3 phase imbalance if I stay within
20% of the panel rating. In fact I have seen single phase loads that will
imbalance more than 20% not cause a problem. The problem of imbalance is
similar to what occurs with single phase and changed inverter rules to
requireing a ground reference on 240 volt inverters. This problem is that the
neutral will get pushed off center voltage wise, I usually demonstrate this in
my class. YOu can not cause significat imbalance with three 120 volt
inverters, but you could woty the old 208 no neutral inverters.
Darryl
--- On Tue, 2/16/10, All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez
wrote:
> From: All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
> To: "RE-wrenches"
> Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 9:27 AM
>
>
>
> #yiv965209721 DIV {
> MARGIN:0px;}
>
>
>
>
> Yes,
> No Transformers,
> Single inverter.
>
> Another question, looking
> at the Fronius 10.1 and
> 11.4-3, no battery backup of course, they both list
> 208v in the sizing
> tool. I need to look at a manual, but I'm not sure
> if I would need
> Delta, Wye, ..
>
> Thanks
> everyone!
>
>
>
> - Original Message
> -
> From:
> Rebekah
> Hren
> To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com
>
> ; RE-wrenches
>
> Sent: Monday,
> February 15, 2010 5:34
> PM
> Subject: Re:
> [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid
> Tie with Battery Backup
>
>
>
>
> Hi,
> Does the utility mean by "match" that they
> don't want the inverter output
> transformed in any way?
> Could you not just use one 120V inverter? I've
> connected single 120 volt
> inverters (albeit not outback but I don't see why
> not) to a 120/208 wye
> without problems. You have to make sure the wires are
> sized correctly (solar
> pro had a recent article on unbalanced 3 phase wire
> sizing). This of course
> limits your backed up loads to 120V (w/out a
> transformer).
>
>
> Rebekah Hren
> North Carolina
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Allan
> Sindelar
>
> To: RE-wrenches
>
> Sent: Mon, February
> 15, 2010 6:51:12
> PM
> Subject: Re:
> [RE-wrenches]
> 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
>
> Yes you would. I don't
> believe there is a single inverter that meets the
> utility's wishes.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Allan Sindelar
> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
> NABCEP Certified
> Photovoltaic Installer
> EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Positive Energy,
> Inc.
> 3201 Calle Marie
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
> 505
> 424-1112
> www.positiveenergysolar.com
>
> All
> Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez wrote:
> Thanks Darryl,
> Allen, would you have to use 3
> Sunny Islands? one for each phase?
> The Utility wants a single
> inverter.
>
> Jeremy
> - Original Message - From: "Darryl
> Thayer"
>
> To: "RE-wrenches"
>
> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 3:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3
> Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
>
>
> I do not know what is going
> on at Outback, but unless they reduced the product
> offering, they have the
> capability. I have such a system.
>
> Use 3 of their 120 volt
> single phase inverters connected 3-phase WYE (120/208)
> 3 phase. Each
> inverter is only a single phase, and you connect each
> inverter to the
> neutral and one phase, you program one to be the
> Master, and the others to
> be slaves on phase B and Phase C. When you lose
> the grid, the Master
> inverter starts its sine wave and it generates the
> usual 60 Hz square wave
> on the Outback Bus and the following slave units delays
> the start of their
> sin waves by the appropriate 120 degrees to generate 3
> phases. Each
> inverter picks up and makes 60 hz 3 phas
Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
Yes,
No Transformers, Single inverter.
Another question, looking at the Fronius 10.1 and 11.4-3, no battery backup of
course, they both list 208v in the sizing tool. I need to look at a manual, but
I'm not sure if I would need Delta, Wye, ..
Thanks everyone!
- Original Message -
From: Rebekah Hren
To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com ; RE-wrenches
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
Hi,
Does the utility mean by "match" that they don't want the inverter output
transformed in any way?
Could you not just use one 120V inverter? I've connected single 120 volt
inverters (albeit not outback but I don't see why not) to a 120/208 wye without
problems. You have to make sure the wires are sized correctly (solar pro had a
recent article on unbalanced 3 phase wire sizing). This of course limits your
backed up loads to 120V (w/out a transformer).
Rebekah Hren
North Carolina
--
From: Allan Sindelar
To: RE-wrenches
Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 6:51:12 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
Yes you would. I don't believe there is a single inverter that meets the
utility's wishes.
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com
All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez wrote:
Thanks Darryl,
Allen, would you have to use 3 Sunny Islands? one for each phase?
The Utility wants a single inverter.
Jeremy
- Original Message - From: "Darryl Thayer"
To: "RE-wrenches"
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
I do not know what is going on at Outback, but unless they reduced the
product offering, they have the capability. I have such a system.
Use 3 of their 120 volt single phase inverters connected 3-phase WYE
(120/208) 3 phase. Each inverter is only a single phase, and you connect each
inverter to the neutral and one phase, you program one to be the Master, and
the others to be slaves on phase B and Phase C. When you lose the grid, the
Master inverter starts its sine wave and it generates the usual 60 Hz square
wave on the Outback Bus and the following slave units delays the start of their
sin waves by the appropriate 120 degrees to generate 3 phases. Each inverter
picks up and makes 60 hz 3 phase.
One thing, besure to get a rotation meter and check that you are generating
3-phase the same rotation as the grid. Else you will have big problems. (motors
will reverse and you may fry the OB transfer relay)
Next time you call outback ask a tech if you can slave the GVFX to make 3
phase,
--- On Mon, 2/15/10, All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez
wrote:
From: All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
To: starpowe...@juno.com, "RE-wrenches"
Date: Monday, February 15, 2010, 4:14 PM
Jeff,
That was my first choice, but I was told by Outback
that they do not offer
a 120/208 inverter(s). I have not set up a three
phase system yet, so bare
with me please. I was going to contact SMA next.
Jeremy
- Original Message - From: "Jeff Oldham"
To: ;
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery
Backup
> You can also do it w/Outback up to 10.8kW
>
>>From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of
Jeff Oldham/Regenerative
>>SOLutions
--
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
Hi, Does the utility mean by "match" that they don't want the inverter output transformed in any way? Could you not just use one 120V inverter? I've connected single 120 volt inverters (albeit not outback but I don't see why not) to a 120/208 wye without problems. You have to make sure the wires are sized correctly (solar pro had a recent article on unbalanced 3 phase wire sizing). This of course limits your backed up loads to 120V (w/out a transformer). Rebekah Hren North Carolina From: Allan Sindelar To: RE-wrenches Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 6:51:12 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup Yes you would. I don't believe there is a single inverter that meets the utility's wishes. AllanSindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: Thanks Darryl, > >>Allen, would you have to use 3 Sunny Islands? one for each phase? > >>The Utility wants a single inverter. > > >>Jeremy > >>- Original Message - From: "Darryl Thayer" > >>To: "RE-wrenches" >>Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 3:49 PM > >>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup > > > >>I do not know what is going on at Outback, but unless they reduced the >product offering, they have the capability. I have such a system. > > >>Use 3 of their 120 volt single phase inverters connected 3-phase WYE >(120/208) 3 phase. Each inverter is only a single phase, and you >connect each inverter to the neutral and one phase, you program one to >be the Master, and the others to be slaves on phase B and Phase C. >When you lose the grid, the Master inverter starts its sine wave and it >generates the usual 60 Hz square wave on the Outback Bus and the >following slave units delays the start of their sin waves by the >appropriate 120 degrees to generate 3 phases. Each inverter picks up >and makes 60 hz 3 phase. > > >>One thing, besure to get a rotation meter and check that you are >generating 3-phase the same rotation as the grid. Else you will have >big problems. (motors will reverse and you may fry the OB transfer >relay) > > >>Next time you call outback ask a tech if you can slave the GVFX to make >3 phase, > > >>--- On Mon, 2/15/10, All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: > > > >From: All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez >> >>>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup >> >>>>To: starpowe...@juno.com, "RE-wrenches" >> >>>>Date: Monday, February 15, 2010, 4:14 PM >> >>>>Jeff, >> >>>>That was my first choice, but I was told by Outback >> >>>>that they do not offer >> >>>>a 120/208 inverter(s). I have not set up a three >> >>>>phase system yet, so bare >> >>>>with me please. I was going to contact SMA next. >> >> >>>>Jeremy >> >> >> >>>>- Original Message - From: "Jeff Oldham" >> >>>>To: ; >> >> >>>>Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 3:03 PM >> >>>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery >> >>>>Backup >> >> >> >>>>> You can also do it w/Outback up to 10.8kW >> >>>>> >> >>>>>>From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of >> >>>>Jeff Oldham/Regenerative >> >>>>>>SOLutions >> >> >> > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
Yes you would. I don't believe there is a single inverter that meets the utility's wishes.
Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
Thanks Darryl, Allen, would you have to use 3 Sunny Islands? one for each phase? The Utility wants a single inverter. Jeremy - Original Message - From: "Darryl Thayer" To: "RE-wrenches" Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup I do not know what is going on at Outback, but unless they reduced the product offering, they have the capability. I have such a system. Use 3 of their 120 volt single phase inverters connected 3-phase WYE (120/208) 3 phase. Each inverter is only a single phase, and you connect each inverter to the neutral and one phase, you program one to be the Master, and the others to be slaves on phase B and Phase C. When you lose the grid, the Master inverter starts its sine wave and it generates the usual 60 Hz square wave on the Outback Bus and the following slave units delays the start of their sin waves by the appropriate 120 degrees to generate 3 phases. Each inverter picks up and makes 60 hz 3 phase. One thing, besure to get a rotation meter and check that you are generating 3-phase the same rotation as the grid. Else you will have big problems. (motors will reverse and you may fry the OB transfer relay) Next time you call outback ask a tech if you can slave the GVFX to make 3 phase, --- On Mon, 2/15/10, All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: From: All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup To: starpowe...@juno.com, "RE-wrenches" Date: Monday, February 15, 2010, 4:14 PM Jeff, That was my first choice, but I was told by Outback that they do not offer a 120/208 inverter(s). I have not set up a three phase system yet, so bare with me please. I was going to contact SMA next. Jeremy - Original Message - From: "Jeff Oldham" To: ; Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 3:03 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup > You can also do it w/Outback up to 10.8kW > >>From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative >>SOLutions > > > Nutrition > Improve your career health. Click now to study nutrition! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/c?cp=cz_Q_kZ_GmgIujsbcDvK8wAAJz3wjMeYFQQEj9ak8QigdzdLAAYAAADNAAASQwA= > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
I do not know what is going on at Outback, but unless they reduced the product offering, they have the capability. I have such a system. Use 3 of their 120 volt single phase inverters connected 3-phase WYE (120/208) 3 phase. Each inverter is only a single phase, and you connect each inverter to the neutral and one phase, you program one to be the Master, and the others to be slaves on phase B and Phase C. When you lose the grid, the Master inverter starts its sine wave and it generates the usual 60 Hz square wave on the Outback Bus and the following slave units delays the start of their sin waves by the appropriate 120 degrees to generate 3 phases. Each inverter picks up and makes 60 hz 3 phase. One thing, besure to get a rotation meter and check that you are generating 3-phase the same rotation as the grid. Else you will have big problems. (motors will reverse and you may fry the OB transfer relay) Next time you call outback ask a tech if you can slave the GVFX to make 3 phase, --- On Mon, 2/15/10, All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > From: All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup > To: starpowe...@juno.com, "RE-wrenches" > Date: Monday, February 15, 2010, 4:14 PM > Jeff, > That was my first choice, but I was told by Outback > that they do not offer > a 120/208 inverter(s). I have not set up a three > phase system yet, so bare > with me please. I was going to contact SMA next. > > Jeremy > > > - Original Message - > From: "Jeff Oldham" > To: ; > > Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 3:03 PM > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery > Backup > > > > You can also do it w/Outback up to 10.8kW > > > >>From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of > Jeff Oldham/Regenerative > >>SOLutions > > > > > > > Nutrition > > Improve your career health. Click now to study > nutrition! > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/c?cp=cz_Q_kZ_GmgIujsbcDvK8wAAJz3wjMeYFQQEj9ak8QigdzdLAAYAAADNAAASQwA= > > ___ > > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Options & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
Jeff, That was my first choice, but I was told by Outback that they do not offer a 120/208 inverter(s). I have not set up a three phase system yet, so bare with me please. I was going to contact SMA next. Jeremy - Original Message - From: "Jeff Oldham" To: ; Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 3:03 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup You can also do it w/Outback up to 10.8kW From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions Nutrition Improve your career health. Click now to study nutrition! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/c?cp=cz_Q_kZ_GmgIujsbcDvK8wAAJz3wjMeYFQQEj9ak8QigdzdLAAYAAADNAAASQwA= ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
You can also do it w/Outback up to 10.8kW >From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative >SOLutions Nutrition Improve your career health. Click now to study nutrition! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/c?cp=cz_Q_kZ_GmgIujsbcDvK8wAAJz3wjMeYFQQEj9ak8QigdzdLAAYAAADNAAASQwA= ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
Sunny Boy/Sunny Island will accomplish this.
[RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
Anyone know of a system for Battery Backup that can also be grid tied for 3 phase? Our local Utilitly Co. wants system voltage to match service voltage. Thanks in advance! Jeremy___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
