Re: [RE-wrenches] AFCI tripping on SB 4000US-12

2023-06-20 Thread Martin Herzfeld via RE-wrenches 
Comment below -

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On Mon, Jun 19, 2023, 11:33 AM August Goers via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi William - Is this a TL-21 inverter
> 
> line from maybe 8 or 10 years ago? If I recall correctly, that was around
> the time period that SMA was first shipping with AFCI detection - we had a
> few SMA inverters from that vintage producing false AFCI errors. I think
> that long home runs can be part of the issue and the inverter circuitry was
> a little too sensitive. You might try calling SMA to see if there is a
> firmware update or a way to disable AFCI if you feel comfortable
> with disabling that safety feature.
>

Simply, would this be 690.11 and not be a situation of comfort, but "not in
or on buildings,"  "metal(lic) raceways" or other requirements to comply
with the exception?

Separately, we've had a few phantom type AFCI errors on older modules and
> after tons of troubleshooting we think that it might have been internal to
> the modules themselves.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Best, August
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 11:11 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Friends:
>>
>>
>>
>> We installed a bunch of Shell SQ-150-PC modules on a ground mount almost
>> 20 years ago.  The original SB2500 inverters died so we upgraded to
>> SB4000US-21 inverters.  We had some ground fault or AFCI issues a number of
>> years ago so we replaced all homeruns with PV wire which resolved the
>> problem.
>>
>>
>>
>> These panels have J-boxes which we interconnected with 1/2” NMLT.  The
>> home runs are with PV wire with absolutely no splices and the inter-panel
>> jumpers are THWN.
>>
>>
>>
>> Recently we started getting AFCI disturbances on one inverter.  We
>> isolated the fault to one string.  We opened every pull box and panel J-box
>> and all of the wiring looks dry, clean and tightly connected.  We inspected
>> every panel front and back and see no hotspots or visible corrosion.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a megger I have never used.  The homerun is kind of long so maybe
>> it has insulation problems.  I could isolate the homerun and megger those
>> leads.  I am researching if I can megger PV modules.  It looks like this is
>> commonly done.  That looks like my next step.
>>
>>
>>
>> Does anyone have any ideas on what I should do next? I suppose I could
>> start swapping each of the 10 modules in the problem string with panels in
>> the non-problem strings, but that seems like a lot of work.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>>
>>
>> William Miller
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AFCI tripping on SB 4000US-12

2023-06-19 Thread Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches 
William,
If you swap strings, does the fault stay with the string, or with the
input? and if you do run without the string for a while can you determine
that the arc faults stop? Just figure it is worth making 100% sure the
fault is actually in the DC side of that one string you have isolated, and
not something internal to the inverter or on the AC side.

Cheers,
Dave

On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 5:30 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi William,
> Modules can be meggered individually in or in series strings (with a
> caveat). I've done it many times and discovered internal module shorts
> between positive and gnd,or neg and gnd.
>
> I once took the customer's garden house up on the roof, and meggered a
> string, while trickling water on panels individually. When a short
> occurred, I knew that the respective soaked panel was internally
> compromised (old Sanyo 190's BTW). .
>
> The caveat with meggering a string is that you have to be sure the series
> string voltage plus the megger voltage (i.e. V scale you are measuring with
> on the meter) does not exceed the max. voltage rating of the panels.
> Obviously most new modules have at least a 1000vdc rating these days, who
> knows what Shell SQ's rating is/was. For modern mods rated @ 1000v, I use
> the meggers 500vdc scale.
>
> And with Solaredge, you can megger straight through their optimizers if
> necessary. There's an app note on their site with directions.
>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 2:11 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Friends:
>>
>>
>>
>> We installed a bunch of Shell SQ-150-PC modules on a ground mount almost
>> 20 years ago.  The original SB2500 inverters died so we upgraded to
>> SB4000US-21 inverters.  We had some ground fault or AFCI issues a number of
>> years ago so we replaced all homeruns with PV wire which resolved the
>> problem.
>>
>>
>>
>> These panels have J-boxes which we interconnected with 1/2” NMLT.  The
>> home runs are with PV wire with absolutely no splices and the inter-panel
>> jumpers are THWN.
>>
>>
>>
>> Recently we started getting AFCI disturbances on one inverter.  We
>> isolated the fault to one string.  We opened every pull box and panel J-box
>> and all of the wiring looks dry, clean and tightly connected.  We inspected
>> every panel front and back and see no hotspots or visible corrosion.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a megger I have never used.  The homerun is kind of long so maybe
>> it has insulation problems.  I could isolate the homerun and megger those
>> leads.  I am researching if I can megger PV modules.  It looks like this is
>> commonly done.  That looks like my next step.
>>
>>
>>
>> Does anyone have any ideas on what I should do next? I suppose I could
>> start swapping each of the 10 modules in the problem string with panels in
>> the non-problem strings, but that seems like a lot of work.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>>
>>
>> William Miller
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
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>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
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>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>
>
> --
>
> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>
> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>
> *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!*
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> 802.863.1202
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
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-- 
[image: Logo] 
Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
Owner | Sungineer Solar
p: he | him | his
a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
w: www.sungineersolar.com 
c: (607) 270-0370

Re: [RE-wrenches] AFCI tripping on SB 4000US-12

2023-06-19 Thread Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches 
Hi William,
Modules can be meggered individually in or in series strings (with a
caveat). I've done it many times and discovered internal module shorts
between positive and gnd,or neg and gnd.

I once took the customer's garden house up on the roof, and meggered a
string, while trickling water on panels individually. When a short
occurred, I knew that the respective soaked panel was internally
compromised (old Sanyo 190's BTW). .

The caveat with meggering a string is that you have to be sure the series
string voltage plus the megger voltage (i.e. V scale you are measuring with
on the meter) does not exceed the max. voltage rating of the panels.
Obviously most new modules have at least a 1000vdc rating these days, who
knows what Shell SQ's rating is/was. For modern mods rated @ 1000v, I use
the meggers 500vdc scale.

And with Solaredge, you can megger straight through their optimizers if
necessary. There's an app note on their site with directions.

On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 2:11 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> We installed a bunch of Shell SQ-150-PC modules on a ground mount almost
> 20 years ago.  The original SB2500 inverters died so we upgraded to
> SB4000US-21 inverters.  We had some ground fault or AFCI issues a number of
> years ago so we replaced all homeruns with PV wire which resolved the
> problem.
>
>
>
> These panels have J-boxes which we interconnected with 1/2” NMLT.  The
> home runs are with PV wire with absolutely no splices and the inter-panel
> jumpers are THWN.
>
>
>
> Recently we started getting AFCI disturbances on one inverter.  We
> isolated the fault to one string.  We opened every pull box and panel J-box
> and all of the wiring looks dry, clean and tightly connected.  We inspected
> every panel front and back and see no hotspots or visible corrosion.
>
>
>
> I have a megger I have never used.  The homerun is kind of long so maybe
> it has insulation problems.  I could isolate the homerun and megger those
> leads.  I am researching if I can megger PV modules.  It looks like this is
> commonly done.  That looks like my next step.
>
>
>
> Does anyone have any ideas on what I should do next? I suppose I could
> start swapping each of the 10 modules in the problem string with panels in
> the non-problem strings, but that seems like a lot of work.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
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>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>

-- 

*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.863.1202
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[RE-wrenches] AFCI tripping on SB 4000US-12

2023-06-19 Thread don energysolarnow.com via RE-wrenches 
You should also check the AC wiring. AFCI is detected as radio frequency noise 
from some kind of arc fault. It can be either AC or DC arcing.
I had some AFCI tripping issues that turned out to be loose wiring at the AC 
connector inside the SunnyBoy. It was easily fixed by tightening the screws. 
Since this connector is much closer than the DC wiring it would take less 
faulting to set off the alarm.

Don Barch
Energy Solar

>Friends:
>
> We installed a bunch of Shell SQ-150-PC modules on a ground mount almost
> 20 years ago.  The original SB2500 inverters died so we upgraded to
> SB4000US-21 inverters.  We had some ground fault or AFCI issues a number of
> years ago so we replaced all homeruns with PV wire which resolved the
> problem.
>
> These panels have J-boxes which we interconnected with 1/2? NMLT.  The
> home runs are with PV wire with absolutely no splices and the inter-panel
> jumpers are THWN.
>
> Recently we started getting AFCI disturbances on one inverter.  We
> isolated the fault to one string.  We opened every pull box and panel J-box
> and all of the wiring looks dry, clean and tightly connected.  We inspected
> every panel front and back and see no hotspots or visible corrosion.
>
> I have a megger I have never used.  The homerun is kind of long so maybe
> it has insulation problems.  I could isolate the homerun and megger those
> leads.  I am researching if I can megger PV modules.  It looks like this is
> commonly done.  That looks like my next step.
>
> Does anyone have any ideas on what I should do next? I suppose I could
> start swapping each of the 10 modules in the problem string with panels in
> the non-problem strings, but that seems like a lot of work.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> William Miller
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985

___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AFCI tripping on SB 4000US-12

2023-06-19 Thread August Goers via RE-wrenches 
Hi William - Is this a TL-21 inverter

line from maybe 8 or 10 years ago? If I recall correctly, that was around
the time period that SMA was first shipping with AFCI detection - we had a
few SMA inverters from that vintage producing false AFCI errors. I think
that long home runs can be part of the issue and the inverter circuitry was
a little too sensitive. You might try calling SMA to see if there is a
firmware update or a way to disable AFCI if you feel comfortable
with disabling that safety feature. Separately, we've had a few
phantom type AFCI errors on older modules and after tons of troubleshooting
we think that it might have been internal to the modules themselves.

Good luck!

Best, August


On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 11:11 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> We installed a bunch of Shell SQ-150-PC modules on a ground mount almost
> 20 years ago.  The original SB2500 inverters died so we upgraded to
> SB4000US-21 inverters.  We had some ground fault or AFCI issues a number of
> years ago so we replaced all homeruns with PV wire which resolved the
> problem.
>
>
>
> These panels have J-boxes which we interconnected with 1/2” NMLT.  The
> home runs are with PV wire with absolutely no splices and the inter-panel
> jumpers are THWN.
>
>
>
> Recently we started getting AFCI disturbances on one inverter.  We
> isolated the fault to one string.  We opened every pull box and panel J-box
> and all of the wiring looks dry, clean and tightly connected.  We inspected
> every panel front and back and see no hotspots or visible corrosion.
>
>
>
> I have a megger I have never used.  The homerun is kind of long so maybe
> it has insulation problems.  I could isolate the homerun and megger those
> leads.  I am researching if I can megger PV modules.  It looks like this is
> commonly done.  That looks like my next step.
>
>
>
> Does anyone have any ideas on what I should do next? I suppose I could
> start swapping each of the 10 modules in the problem string with panels in
> the non-problem strings, but that seems like a lot of work.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
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[RE-wrenches] AFCI tripping on SB 4000US-12

2023-06-19 Thread William Miller via RE-wrenches 
Friends:



We installed a bunch of Shell SQ-150-PC modules on a ground mount almost 20
years ago.  The original SB2500 inverters died so we upgraded to
SB4000US-21 inverters.  We had some ground fault or AFCI issues a number of
years ago so we replaced all homeruns with PV wire which resolved the
problem.



These panels have J-boxes which we interconnected with 1/2” NMLT.  The home
runs are with PV wire with absolutely no splices and the inter-panel
jumpers are THWN.



Recently we started getting AFCI disturbances on one inverter.  We isolated
the fault to one string.  We opened every pull box and panel J-box and all
of the wiring looks dry, clean and tightly connected.  We inspected every
panel front and back and see no hotspots or visible corrosion.



I have a megger I have never used.  The homerun is kind of long so maybe it
has insulation problems.  I could isolate the homerun and megger those
leads.  I am researching if I can megger PV modules.  It looks like this is
commonly done.  That looks like my next step.



Does anyone have any ideas on what I should do next? I suppose I could
start swapping each of the 10 modules in the problem string with panels in
the non-problem strings, but that seems like a lot of work.



Thanks in advance.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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