[RE-wrenches] Discover AES explosion

[Vincent Jolissaint via RE-wrenches]

Michael, it is super scary to hear these stories and they are a good
reminder that Li-ion technology still has risks. I am glad the manufacturer
is taking care of you, but it is concerning to see that the battery safety
systems allowed the thermal runaway event.

Hopefully, the fire department coded the incident response correctly, so
the powers that be can understand this was a li-ion thermal event from a
home energy storage system.

As more and more ESS systems enter the market, getting a recent UL 9540
listing is important. The earlier versions of the standard were less
robust, but the current edition of 9540 requires UL 9540A testing to be
performed for indoor installations to establish minimum room size based on
25% LFL.

It looks like there will soon be a UL 9540B requirement, and the outline of
investigation is just circulating. I see one Discover datasheet shows UL
9540 listing, but I didn't do research into what edition they tested to, or
if this was the same unit that exploded.

The issue with the 9540A thermal runaway testing is it might not have
tested for this failure mode, but the conditions you describe are very
similar to what 9540B intends to test.

I know many feel LFP is a safer battery than NMC or other li-ion
chemistries, but these events show that the LFP batteries do fail, and when
they do, they can cause large sudden deflagration events without other
warning. An NMC battery pack buy contrast will usually fail by burning
until it is consumed, which might at least set off a smoke or heat
detector.

Were there any fire detection measures in the shed such as a heat or smoke
detector?


*Vince Jolissaint |* *Director of CAD Services*

2557 Wyandotte Street | Mountain View, CA  94043
Office: 650.938.9574 | Email: vince...@cobaltpower.com






>
> Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 20:40:00 -0700
> From: Michael Morningstar 
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover AES exposion
> Message-ID:
> <
> capwhfaegnz5vjmkflffea6my+cdjqde-uuabg1_mdyuilob...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hey Everybody,
>
> I wanted to circle back on the Discover AES explosion that I reported a few
> weeks ago. As far as we know, there was a thermal runaway situation. Gas
> from the battery filled the power room and then ignited causing an
> explosion. It was hot enough that anything plastic melted. The steel man
> door blew off its hinges. Beyond that, we are still trying to figure out
> why it happened.
>
> For now, what I want to say is that Discover has been awesome. The VP, CEO
> and crew responded immediately. They are paying for the cleanup of the
> building by a specialized remediation company, offered to pay to have the
> building rebuilt, 2nd day shipped new rack mount batteries and a pre-built
> Schneider system to the site. Are paying a plumbing contractor to replace
> all of the plumbing (booster pump, pressure tank and significant treatment
> equipment. Flying Mike Wight (ace off-grid installer and
> applications engineer for Discover) to the site for the rebuild. And
> reimbursing me for my involvement. This with no coercion or dawdling about.
> As soon as they found out, they were on it. I spoke with the VP and CEO and
> they genuinely care about my clients and want to do right for the sake of
> doing right, not to avoid litigation. Tell me of another RE company, or any
> company for that matter that would respond this way.
>
> --
>
> Michael Morningstar
>
>
> Morningstar Electric Inc
>
> PO Box 1494
>
> Mount Shasta, CA 96067
>
> 530-921-0560
>
> CSLB 1116835
>
> mjmornings...@gmail.com
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Discover AES explosion!

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

The 6650 definitely meets all the UL's, ETLs, and UN's. Probably the 
first one to do this and since Michael said that it is a first for 
Discover, the jury is out until an FA is complete.


Good points by you Larry, but not valid for many thousands of Discover 
AES 6650s.


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
   [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2]  [1]
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2024-05-03 9:23 am, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote:


Hi Michael,

For 11 years I've been in the Li battery business. We formerly designed 
and installed over a hundred Li battery based systems, mostly mobile 
installations but UPS and off-grid as well. Since 2018, we no longer do 
installations.  Currently we sell our own Li-ion brand with many 
thousands sold and in use. We have not had any fire or explosion 
claims.


Most Li batteries sold in the US are not UL1973 or ETL certified. Many 
batteries are very cheaply made to have the lowest price. Based on my 
experience I consider any battery not certified as potentially 
dangerous. I don't know if Discover is certified and make no statement 
about them.


An important question is what will an insurance company do if there is 
a claim and the product you install is not certified to these high 
safety standards? Worth considering.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Power Systems

On May 3, 2024, at 8:21 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Two days ago, one of my clients came home to find the door of his 
powershed blown off its hinges and a smoldering Discover AES. The case 
was still intact and the entire room is coated with a fine 
graphite-like powder. The fire department was unable/unwilling to do 
anything to cool the battery down and it smoldered for a day. 199 
degrees fahrenheit after 18 hours. Discover is taking this seriously 
and their response has been great. They are in contact with the cell 
manufacturer to find a "best practices" for the clean up of the room. 
They also have said that this is a first for them (lucky me).


I'm just curious how rare or common LiFePO 4 explosions are? I've never 
heard of one in the context of residential storage. This has me pretty 
freaked out.


Michael Morningstar

Morningstar Electric Inc
PO Box 1494
Mount Shasta, CA 96067
530-921-0560
CSLB 1116835
mjmornings...@gmail.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Discover AES explosion!

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

Hi Michael,

For 11 years I’ve been in the Li battery business. We formerly designed and 
installed over a hundred Li battery based systems, mostly mobile installations 
but UPS and off-grid as well. Since 2018, we no longer do installations.  
Currently we sell our own Li-ion brand with many thousands sold and in use. We 
have not had any fire or explosion claims.

Most Li batteries sold in the US are not UL1973 or ETL certified. Many 
batteries are very cheaply made to have the lowest price. Based on my 
experience I consider any battery not certified as potentially dangerous. I 
don’t know if Discover is certified and make no statement about them. 

An important question is what will an insurance company do if there is a claim 
and the product you install is not certified to these high safety standards? 
Worth considering.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Power Systems




On May 3, 2024, at 8:21 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

Two days ago, one of my clients came home to find the door of his powershed 
blown off its hinges and a smoldering Discover AES. The case was still intact 
and the entire room is coated with a fine graphite-like powder. The fire 
department was unable/unwilling to do anything to cool the battery down and it 
smoldered for a day. 199 degrees fahrenheit after 18 hours. Discover is taking 
this seriously and their response has been great. They are in contact with the 
cell manufacturer to find a "best practices" for the clean up of the room. They 
also have said that this is a first for them (lucky me).

I'm just curious how rare or common LiFePO 4 explosions are? I've never heard 
of one in the context of residential storage. This has me pretty freaked out.

Michael Morningstar 

Morningstar Electric Inc
PO Box 1494
Mount Shasta, CA 96067
530-921-0560
CSLB 1116835
mjmornings...@gmail.com 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Discover AES explosion!

[Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches]

Yes, it is a 6650. It's neighbor survived, we think. Might be able to pull
data off it or the Lynk II


On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 8:33 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Never heard of one with LFP. The cobalt and Magnesium Lions are definitely
> out there. Was this a 6650 model Michael?
> Going to be fun times doing a failure analysis on this one.
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
>https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
>   
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
> On 2024-05-03 8:21 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Two days ago, one of my clients came home to find the door of his
> powershed blown off its hinges and a smoldering Discover AES. The case was
> still intact and the entire room is coated with a fine graphite-like
> powder. The fire department was unable/unwilling to do anything to cool the
> battery down and it smoldered for a day. 199 degrees fahrenheit after 18
> hours. Discover is taking this seriously and their response has been great.
> They are in contact with the cell manufacturer to find a "best practices"
> for the clean up of the room. They also have said that this is a first for
> them (lucky me).
>
> I'm just curious how rare or common LiFePO 4 explosions are? I've never
> heard of one in the context of residential storage. This has me pretty
> freaked out.
>
>
>
> Michael Morningstar
>
>
>
> Morningstar Electric Inc
>
> PO Box 1494
>
> Mount Shasta, CA 96067
>
> 530-921-0560
>
> CSLB 1116835
>
> mjmornings...@gmail.com
>
>
>
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-- 

Michael Morningstar


Morningstar Electric Inc

PO Box 1494

Mount Shasta, CA 96067

530-921-0560

CSLB 1116835

mjmornings...@gmail.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Discover AES explosion!

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

Never heard of one with LFP. The cobalt and Magnesium Lions are 
definitely out there. Was this a 6650 model Michael?

Going to be fun times doing a failure analysis on this one.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
   [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2]  [1]
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2024-05-03 8:21 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:

Two days ago, one of my clients came home to find the door of his 
powershed blown off its hinges and a smoldering Discover AES. The case 
was still intact and the entire room is coated with a fine 
graphite-like powder. The fire department was unable/unwilling to do 
anything to cool the battery down and it smoldered for a day. 199 
degrees fahrenheit after 18 hours. Discover is taking this seriously 
and their response has been great. They are in contact with the cell 
manufacturer to find a "best practices" for the clean up of the room. 
They also have said that this is a first for them (lucky me).


I'm just curious how rare or common LiFePO 4 explosions are? I've never 
heard of one in the context of residential storage. This has me pretty 
freaked out.


Michael Morningstar

Morningstar Electric Inc

PO Box 1494

Mount Shasta, CA 96067

530-921-0560

CSLB 1116835

mjmornings...@gmail.com

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[RE-wrenches] Discover AES explosion!

[Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches]

Two days ago, one of my clients came home to find the door of his powershed
blown off its hinges and a smoldering Discover AES. The case was still
intact and the entire room is coated with a fine graphite-like powder. The
fire department was unable/unwilling to do anything to cool the battery
down and it smoldered for a day. 199 degrees fahrenheit after 18 hours.
Discover is taking this seriously and their response has been great. They
are in contact with the cell manufacturer to find a "best practices" for
the clean up of the room. They also have said that this is a first for them
(lucky me).

I'm just curious how rare or common LiFePO 4 explosions are? I've never
heard of one in the context of residential storage. This has me pretty
freaked out.

Michael Morningstar


Morningstar Electric Inc

PO Box 1494

Mount Shasta, CA 96067

530-921-0560

CSLB 1116835

mjmornings...@gmail.com
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