Re: [RE-wrenches] Flickering LED lights on and Outback Dual 7248 VFX system

[Jerry Shafer]

I have had this same thing happen with a off grid application using SMA
SI's it rooted back to programming one inverter was going to sleep and
under some loads the lights would flicker and they were over the dinning
room table and suspended from a 16 foot ceiling so it lit up the entire
room. I know this has a different inverter  system but I would look close
at the programming LED's use such a low load and the drivers take a second
to activate. Did you connect a DVOM and watch the volts better yet a scope
Jerry


On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 5:56 PM, Exeltech  wrote:

> There may also be a technical aspect of the dimmer that's adding to the
> flicker, depending on the type of dimmer(s) in use.
>
> Some dimmers use a device called a "silicon-controlled rectifier" .. or
> "SCR".  They allow only half of the sine wave to pass.  Half-wave power
> wasn't very noticeable when used with incandescent lamps due to the
> continued "glow" persistence of the filament.  However, LEDs react
> [essentially] immediately, and the flicker is very apparent.  Final thought
> .. compressors use the most energy during the compression stroke.  Actual
> current draw varies with each stroke of the piston.  Check not only the
> battery connections, but look to see if the loads are on the same circuits
> as the lamps.  If in fact the inverter AC output voltage IS dropping due to
> DC-side issues .. and the large AC loads happen to share the same circuit
> as the lamps .. this would make any flicker that much worse.
>
>
> Dan
>
>
> ------------------------
> On Mon, 1/6/14, b...@midnitesolar.com  wrote:
>
>  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flickering LED lights on and Outback Dual 7248
> VFX system
>  To: "RE-wrenches" 
>  Date: Monday, January 6, 2014, 6:25 PM
>
>
> Only during Big load surges ?
>
> Could it be current limiting and because LEDs are so fast on and off, you
> notice the drop in momentary voltage ?
>
> Any inverter might do that under the right conditions.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> boB
>
>
>
>
> On 1/6/2014 3:45 PM, Dan Fink wrote:
> > I consider LED flicker as very common when a fridge starts up, but NOT
> while it's running. Both dimmed and not dimmed LEDs. I see flicker more
> often on systems with smaller (or aging) battery systems of course. The
> only particular appliance I have found causing constant flicker here and
> with my clients is a particular brand of laser printer. And also a
> subwoofer on the stereo (light show!)a different subwoofer brand solved
> that problem. Go figure, I have no idea why. Most of my inverters are by
> Magnum. I have not found much difference with LED brands or dimmer brands.
> > I can see how this could be a problem for your client, Kirpal. None of
> mine seem to mind a startup flicker, but if its constant that's a big
> problem. I wish I had an answer for you, but I hope that providing this
> information helps others. CFLs do not give me the same problem, but of
> course have their own other problems.
> >
> > Dan Fink,
> > Executive Director;
> > Otherpower
> > Buckville Energy Consulting
> > Buckville Publications LLC
> > NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
> > 970.672.4342
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Jay Peltz  wrote:
> >
> > Dimmers are super specific to light brand/type.  You'll have to do
> the research
> >
> > For now swapping to regular switches should work
> >
> > Jay
> >
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Flickering LED lights on and Outback Dual 7248 VFX system

[Exeltech]

There may also be a technical aspect of the dimmer that's adding to the 
flicker, depending on the type of dimmer(s) in use.

Some dimmers use a device called a "silicon-controlled rectifier" .. or "SCR".  
They allow only half of the sine wave to pass.  Half-wave power wasn't very 
noticeable when used with incandescent lamps due to the continued "glow" 
persistence of the filament.  However, LEDs react [essentially] immediately, 
and the flicker is very apparent.  Final thought .. compressors use the most 
energy during the compression stroke.  Actual current draw varies with each 
stroke of the piston.  Check not only the battery connections, but look to see 
if the loads are on the same circuits as the lamps.  If in fact the inverter AC 
output voltage IS dropping due to DC-side issues .. and the large AC loads 
happen to share the same circuit as the lamps .. this would make any flicker 
that much worse.


Dan



On Mon, 1/6/14, b...@midnitesolar.com  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flickering LED lights on and Outback Dual 7248 VFX 
system
 To: "RE-wrenches" 
 Date: Monday, January 6, 2014, 6:25 PM
 
 
Only during Big load surges ?

Could it be current limiting and because LEDs are so fast on and off, you 
notice the drop in momentary voltage ?

Any inverter might do that under the right conditions.

Just a thought.

boB




On 1/6/2014 3:45 PM, Dan Fink wrote:
> I consider LED flicker as very common when a fridge starts up, but NOT while 
> it's running. Both dimmed and not dimmed LEDs. I see flicker more often on 
> systems with smaller (or aging) battery systems of course. The only 
> particular appliance I have found causing constant flicker here and with my 
> clients is a particular brand of laser printer. And also a subwoofer on the 
> stereo (light show!)a different subwoofer brand solved that problem. Go 
> figure, I have no idea why. Most of my inverters are by Magnum. I have not 
> found much difference with LED brands or dimmer brands.
> I can see how this could be a problem for your client, Kirpal. None of mine 
> seem to mind a startup flicker, but if its constant that's a big problem. I 
> wish I had an answer for you, but I hope that providing this information 
> helps others. CFLs do not give me the same problem, but of course have their 
> own other problems.
>
> Dan Fink,
> Executive Director;
> Otherpower
> Buckville Energy Consulting
> Buckville Publications LLC
> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
> 970.672.4342
>
>  
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Jay Peltz  wrote:
>
> Dimmers are super specific to light brand/type.  You'll have to do the 
> research
>
> For now swapping to regular switches should work
>
> Jay
>

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Flickering LED lights on and Outback Dual 7248 VFX system

[Kirpal Khalsa]

Thanks folks for the ideas!  So far I have advised a few things.I will
report back any successes..

Here is the advice I have shared.
1. Get some different makes and models of LED light bulbs to try out
2. Get some different dimmer switches to try out
3. Try some lights on non dimmer type switches.
4. Switch the fridge to the other leg of their 120\240 V service.
5. Check battery cables for loose connections.
6. Get a new fridge..(they are hoping to avoid this and it is not the only
load causing the problem)

This is an odd problem.The battery bank and inverter are more than
adequately sized for the loadsThe fridge only draws 7 A when
runningand the problem is not just under start up it is present the
entire time it is running.The same is true for any other motor type
loads that are runningbig or small.long term the fridge is the most
problematic load because of the regular and unpredictable run times
As LED's become more wide spread and available and cheaper I am hoping not
to run into this problem more often.They can be a huge attribute to an
energy efficient off grid home
Thanks for the advice...keep it coming
Thank you!
On Jan 6, 2014 4:33 PM, "Dan Fink"  wrote:

> I think it's for sure how fast LEDs react boB. That's why I don't see it
> with other lighting technologies like CFL etc.
> But I don't understand  a fridge that causes constant flicker when it is
> on. Too bad it's not easy to just try another fridge! Trying another light
> is much easier ;-)
>
> Dan Fink,
> Executive Director;
> Otherpower
> Buckville Energy Consulting
> Buckville Publications LLC
> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
> 970.672.4342
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 5:25 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com  > wrote:
>
>>
>> Only during Big load surges ?
>>
>> Could it be current limiting and because LEDs are so fast on and off, you
>> notice the drop in momentary voltage ?
>>
>> Any inverter might do that under the right conditions.
>>
>> Just a thought.
>>
>> boB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 1/6/2014 3:45 PM, Dan Fink wrote:
>>
>> I consider LED flicker as very common when a fridge starts up, but NOT
>> while it's running. Both dimmed and not dimmed LEDs. I see flicker more
>> often on systems with smaller (or aging) battery systems of course. The
>> only particular appliance I have found causing constant flicker here and
>> with my clients is a particular brand of laser printer. And also a
>> subwoofer on the stereo (light show!)a different subwoofer brand solved
>> that problem. Go figure, I have no idea why. Most of my inverters are by
>> Magnum. I have not found much difference with LED brands or dimmer brands.
>> I can see how this could be a problem for your client, Kirpal. None of
>> mine seem to mind a startup flicker, but if its constant that's a big
>> problem. I wish I had an answer for you, but I hope that providing this
>> information helps others. CFLs do not give me the same problem, but of
>> course have their own other problems.
>>
>> Dan Fink,
>> Executive Director;
>> Otherpower
>> Buckville Energy Consulting
>> Buckville Publications LLC
>> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
>> 970.672.4342
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Jay Peltz  wrote:
>>
>>> Dimmers are super specific to light brand/type.  You'll have to do the
>>> research
>>>
>>> For now swapping to regular switches should work
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Flickering LED lights on and Outback Dual 7248 VFX system

[Dan Fink]

I think it's for sure how fast LEDs react boB. That's why I don't see it
with other lighting technologies like CFL etc.
But I don't understand  a fridge that causes constant flicker when it is
on. Too bad it's not easy to just try another fridge! Trying another light
is much easier ;-)

Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342




On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 5:25 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com
wrote:

>
> Only during Big load surges ?
>
> Could it be current limiting and because LEDs are so fast on and off, you
> notice the drop in momentary voltage ?
>
> Any inverter might do that under the right conditions.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> boB
>
>
>
>
>
> On 1/6/2014 3:45 PM, Dan Fink wrote:
>
> I consider LED flicker as very common when a fridge starts up, but NOT
> while it's running. Both dimmed and not dimmed LEDs. I see flicker more
> often on systems with smaller (or aging) battery systems of course. The
> only particular appliance I have found causing constant flicker here and
> with my clients is a particular brand of laser printer. And also a
> subwoofer on the stereo (light show!)a different subwoofer brand solved
> that problem. Go figure, I have no idea why. Most of my inverters are by
> Magnum. I have not found much difference with LED brands or dimmer brands.
> I can see how this could be a problem for your client, Kirpal. None of
> mine seem to mind a startup flicker, but if its constant that's a big
> problem. I wish I had an answer for you, but I hope that providing this
> information helps others. CFLs do not give me the same problem, but of
> course have their own other problems.
>
> Dan Fink,
> Executive Director;
> Otherpower
> Buckville Energy Consulting
> Buckville Publications LLC
> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
> 970.672.4342
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Jay Peltz  wrote:
>
>> Dimmers are super specific to light brand/type.  You'll have to do the
>> research
>>
>> For now swapping to regular switches should work
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>> >
>> ___
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>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Flickering LED lights on and Outback Dual 7248 VFX system

[b...@midnitesolar.com]

Only during Big load surges ?

Could it be current limiting and because LEDs are so fast on and off, 
you notice the drop in momentary voltage ?


Any inverter might do that under the right conditions.

Just a thought.

boB




On 1/6/2014 3:45 PM, Dan Fink wrote:
I consider LED flicker as very common when a fridge starts up, but NOT 
while it's running. Both dimmed and not dimmed LEDs. I see flicker 
more often on systems with smaller (or aging) battery systems of 
course. The only particular appliance I have found causing constant 
flicker here and with my clients is a particular brand of laser 
printer. And also a subwoofer on the stereo (light show!)a 
different subwoofer brand solved that problem. Go figure, I have no 
idea why. Most of my inverters are by Magnum. I have not found much 
difference with LED brands or dimmer brands.
I can see how this could be a problem for your client, Kirpal. None of 
mine seem to mind a startup flicker, but if its constant that's a big 
problem. I wish I had an answer for you, but I hope that providing 
this information helps others. CFLs do not give me the same problem, 
but of course have their own other problems.


Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342



On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Jay Peltz > wrote:


Dimmers are super specific to light brand/type.  You'll have to do
the research

For now swapping to regular switches should work

Jay


>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Flickering LED lights on and Outback Dual 7248 VFX system

[Dan Fink]

I consider LED flicker as very common when a fridge starts up, but NOT
while it's running. Both dimmed and not dimmed LEDs. I see flicker more
often on systems with smaller (or aging) battery systems of course. The
only particular appliance I have found causing constant flicker here and
with my clients is a particular brand of laser printer. And also a
subwoofer on the stereo (light show!)a different subwoofer brand solved
that problem. Go figure, I have no idea why. Most of my inverters are by
Magnum. I have not found much difference with LED brands or dimmer brands.
I can see how this could be a problem for your client, Kirpal. None of mine
seem to mind a startup flicker, but if its constant that's a big problem. I
wish I had an answer for you, but I hope that providing this information
helps others. CFLs do not give me the same problem, but of course have
their own other problems.

Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342




On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Jay Peltz  wrote:

> Dimmers are super specific to light brand/type.  You'll have to do the
> research
>
> For now swapping to regular switches should work
>
> Jay
>
>
> >
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Flickering LED lights on and Outback Dual 7248 VFX system

[Jay Peltz]

Dimmers are super specific to light brand/type.  You'll have to do the research 

For now swapping to regular switches should work

Jay


> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Flickering LED lights on and Outback Dual 7248 VFX system

[Kirpal Khalsa]

Thank you DanI will have customer check that!  Good idea.That is
always a good idea!!

Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o


On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 1:38 PM,  wrote:

> Might be worth checking battery connections..
>
>
> Dan Brown
> Foxfire Energy Corp.
> Renewable Energy Systems
> (802)-483-2564
> www.Foxfire-Energy.com
> NABCEP #092907-44
>
>
>   Original Message ----
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flickering LED lights on and Outback Dual
> 7248 VFX system
> From: Jay Peltz 
> Date: Mon, January 06, 2014 4:28 pm
> To: RE-wrenches 
>
> Hi Kirpal
>
> Are the lights on dimmers?
>
> Jay
> Peltz power
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 6, 2014, at 1:09 PM, Kirpal Khalsa  wrote:
>
> Hi All.have a puzzling problemcustomer has a fully LED lit house.
>   All LED lights are flickering when the fridge compressor, tile saw,
> grinder, washing machine etc come onThe inverters are about 6 years old
> Dual Outback VFX7248 power system with rolls surrrette batteries.they
> are building the house and most motors when they are running, including the
> fridge seem to cause the LED lights to flicker continuously while the
> motors are running, the fridge seems to be the worst culprit and just so
> happens to be the most regular and often runner (fridge is a Amana Model #
> ARB2257CC rated at 7.7 AmpsFridge is on a GFI outlet...The LED bulbs
> are Eco Smart made by Cree.Model 499 485 and they are all dimmable
> lights and they are on Lutron CL dimmer switches which are supposed to be
> compatible with LED bulbs.)
> Looking for any advice or others experience to try to solve this annoying
> problem.Anyone else have this problem with these particular bulbs or
> similar experiences with these or other LED bulbs
> I am having the customer try some other makes and brands of bulbs.
>
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Renewable Energy Systems
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-218-0201 m
> 541-592-3958 o
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Flickering LED lights on and Outback Dual 7248 VFX system

[dan]

Might be worth checking battery connections.. Dan BrownFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.comNABCEP #092907-44


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flickering LED lights on and Outback Dual
7248 VFX system
From: Jay Peltz <j...@asis.com>
Date: Mon, January 06, 2014 4:28 pm
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

Hi KirpalAre the lights on dimmers?JayPeltz powerSent from my iPhoneOn Jan 6, 2014, at 1:09 PM, Kirpal Khalsa <solarwo...@gmail.com> wrote:Hi All.have a puzzling problemcustomer has a fully LED lit house.   All LED lights are flickering when the fridge compressor, tile saw, grinder, washing machine etc come onThe inverters are about 6 years old Dual Outback VFX7248 power system with rolls surrrette batteries.they are building the house and most motors when they are running, including the fridge seem to cause the LED lights to flicker continuously while the motors are running, the fridge seems to be the worst culprit and just so happens to be the most regular and often runner (fridge is a Amana Model # ARB2257CC rated at 7.7 AmpsFridge is on a GFI outlet...The LED bulbs are Eco Smart made by Cree.Model 499 485 and they are all dimmable lights and they are on Lutron CL dimmer switches which are supposed to be compatible with LED bulbs.) Looking for any advice or others experience to try to solve this annoying problem.Anyone else have this problem with these particular bulbs or similar experiences with these or other LED bulbsI am having the customer try some other makes and brands of bulbs. Sunny Regards,Kirpal KhalsaNABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalRenewable Energy Systemswww.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m541-592-3958 o  ___List sponsored by Home Power .org___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Flickering LED lights on and Outback Dual 7248 VFX system

[Kirpal Khalsa]

Jay...yes the lights are on Lutron dimmer switches which are made
specifically for CFL and LED lights.it doesn't seem to make a
difference if they lights are on full tilt or dimmed downthe flickering
is there at any power level
Thanks!!

Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o


On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Jay Peltz  wrote:

> Hi Kirpal
>
> Are the lights on dimmers?
>
> Jay
> Peltz power
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 6, 2014, at 1:09 PM, Kirpal Khalsa  wrote:
>
> Hi All.have a puzzling problemcustomer has a fully LED lit house.
>   All LED lights are flickering when the fridge compressor, tile saw,
> grinder, washing machine etc come onThe inverters are about 6 years old
> Dual Outback VFX7248 power system with rolls surrrette batteries.they
> are building the house and most motors when they are running, including the
> fridge seem to cause the LED lights to flicker continuously while the
> motors are running, the fridge seems to be the worst culprit and just so
> happens to be the most regular and often runner (fridge is a Amana Model #
> ARB2257CC rated at 7.7 AmpsFridge is on a GFI outlet...The LED bulbs
> are Eco Smart made by Cree.Model 499 485 and they are all dimmable
> lights and they are on Lutron CL dimmer switches which are supposed to be
> compatible with LED bulbs.)
> Looking for any advice or others experience to try to solve this annoying
> problem.Anyone else have this problem with these particular bulbs or
> similar experiences with these or other LED bulbs
> I am having the customer try some other makes and brands of bulbs.
>
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Renewable Energy Systems
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-218-0201 m
> 541-592-3958 o
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power .org
>
>
> ___
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> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Flickering LED lights on and Outback Dual 7248 VFX system

[Jay Peltz]

Hi Kirpal

Are the lights on dimmers?

Jay
Peltz power

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 6, 2014, at 1:09 PM, Kirpal Khalsa  wrote:
> 
> Hi All.have a puzzling problemcustomer has a fully LED lit house.   
> All LED lights are flickering when the fridge compressor, tile saw, grinder, 
> washing machine etc come onThe inverters are about 6 years old Dual 
> Outback VFX7248 power system with rolls surrrette batteries.they are 
> building the house and most motors when they are running, including the 
> fridge seem to cause the LED lights to flicker continuously while the motors 
> are running, the fridge seems to be the worst culprit and just so happens to 
> be the most regular and often runner (fridge is a Amana Model # ARB2257CC 
> rated at 7.7 AmpsFridge is on a GFI outlet...The LED bulbs are Eco Smart 
> made by Cree.Model 499 485 and they are all dimmable lights and they are 
> on Lutron CL dimmer switches which are supposed to be compatible with LED 
> bulbs.)
> Looking for any advice or others experience to try to solve this annoying 
> problem.Anyone else have this problem with these particular bulbs or 
> similar experiences with these or other LED bulbs
> I am having the customer try some other makes and brands of bulbs.
> 
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Renewable Energy Systems
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-218-0201 m
> 541-592-3958 o
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power .org
> 
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[RE-wrenches] Flickering LED lights on and Outback Dual 7248 VFX system

[Kirpal Khalsa]

Hi All.have a puzzling problemcustomer has a fully LED lit house.
All LED lights are flickering when the fridge compressor, tile saw,
grinder, washing machine etc come onThe inverters are about 6 years old
Dual Outback VFX7248 power system with rolls surrrette batteries.they
are building the house and most motors when they are running, including the
fridge seem to cause the LED lights to flicker continuously while the
motors are running, the fridge seems to be the worst culprit and just so
happens to be the most regular and often runner (fridge is a Amana Model #
ARB2257CC rated at 7.7 AmpsFridge is on a GFI outlet...The LED bulbs
are Eco Smart made by Cree.Model 499 485 and they are all dimmable
lights and they are on Lutron CL dimmer switches which are supposed to be
compatible with LED bulbs.)
Looking for any advice or others experience to try to solve this annoying
problem.Anyone else have this problem with these particular bulbs or
similar experiences with these or other LED bulbs
I am having the customer try some other makes and brands of bulbs.

Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o
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