Re: [RE-wrenches] Fronius State 104
Phil and others,As an update to an issue with a Fronius IG inverter and a chronic State 104 Grid Frequency error, swapping out to a Fronius IG+ solved the problem. Thanks for your help,Jeff Jeff WongstromNABCEP Certified PV InstallerLicensed MT Residential Electrician406.291.3416thirstylakesolar.com On Oct 8, 2012, at 10:42 AM, Philip Boutelle wrote:Jeff-See if you can find a PowerSight power meter (http://www.powersight.com/; in PGE territory, we can borrow them from PGE for free). This will allow you to log and chart frequency. Present your data to Fronius, and assuming that your grid frequency is actually within permissible range, push them to send you an IG+ as a replacement. I went through 4 IGs before I got an IG+, and now no more state 104 errors. Good luck,-Phil BoutelleJeff,Though I realize this suggestion is not fixing the source of the issue – you may want to simply widen the FQ window on the IG with the “secret code” from Fronius (44737).I wonder if the frequency error happens so quickly that it is not caught by the utility or DMM monitoring.Stephen KaneJeff,The TWACs signal is a nasty beast. It is low frequency and thus very hard to filter. It seems to cause problems with a large variety of devices.Unless someone has taken the time to check, how do they know if the other inverters aren't offline for 5 of every 15 minutes?I think the time sync signal may be broadcast from the substation only with no reply from the individual meters. The problems I've seen have always been when the local meter is sending data; that only takes a few seconds but it takes the inverter offline for five minutes. So if you are seeing problems with the time sync signal, I'd guess that the installation must be close to the substation where the signal originates.Kent Osterberg On 10/9/2012 9:20 AM, Jeff Wongstrom wrote:Kent,I just talked with Mike in the meter department. The utility does indeed use Aclara TWACs AMR. The meter reading signal can vary but is usually done at midnight or it could be set to every 8 hours, 1 hour, etc. However, a time sync signal is sent every 15 minutes. This correlates with the problem inverter going into state 104's at various times after connecting to the grid observed from 1-11 minutes. Unfortunately I was informed that the time sync signal can not be changed.Mike told me that there are two or three other Fronius inverters on their system without problems, he did not know if they are IG or IG+.JeffOn Oct 8, 2012, at 7:38 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote:Jeff,Is there any chance the utility has recently implemented a remote meter reading system? TheAclara TWACsremote meter reading system communicates by putting a pulse on the line that is very near the zero crossing of the voltage waveform. Unfortunately the zero crossing is easily and often used as a reference point for frequency measurements. Devices that watch the zero crossings are often confused by the TWACS signal. The signal isn't there constantly -- only when the local kWr meter has been asked to send data.Kent Osterberg 720.365.3994 (cell)On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Jeff Wongstrom jeff.wongst...@thirstylakesolar.com wrote: Hello wrenches,We have a Fronius IG3000 that chronically and frequently cycles into and out of a state 104(grid frequency not within admissible range). The utility has monitored the supply and claims to have found no frequency or supply issues. Fronius sent a replacement inverter but the error persists. The tie in point was moved from the critical loads sub panel to the main distribution panel. The state 104 persists with ALL other breakers open. A Fluke DMM min/max function captures no frequency readings outside of the inverter frequency window-same with voltage readings. Any suggestions or recommendations?Thanks,Jeff___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Fronius State 104
All,The utility(Flathead Electric Co-op) has recently completed automatic meter reading using a power line carrier for all co-op members. I will give them a call to find out the type and frequency of signaling. The state 104 has been occurring within 10 minutes of connecting to the grid. Perhaps the IG uses the zero crossing and is confused by the meter reading signal. I have talked with Fronius and it looks like they may send an IG+ as an upgrade. Perhaps the IG+ does not get confused by meter reading signals. Fingers crossed. If it does go into state 104 maybe opening up the frequency window will help.We have no other inverters on this utility for comparison and have had no feedback on the hand full of grid-tied systems out there.Thanks for the valuable input,Jeff Jeff WongstromNABCEP Certified406.291.3416thirstylakesolar.com On Oct 8, 2012, at 7:38 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: Jeff, Is there any chance the utility has recently implemented a remote meter reading system? The Aclara TWACs remote meter reading system communicates by putting a pulse on the line that is very near the zero crossing of the voltage waveform. Unfortunately the zero crossing is easily and often used as a reference point for frequency measurements. Devices that watch the zero crossings are often confused by the TWACS signal. The signal isn't there constantly -- only when the local kWr meter has been asked to send data. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com t: 541-568-4882 On 10/8/2012 9:34 AM, Jeff Wongstrom wrote: Hello wrenches, We have a Fronius IG3000 that chronically and frequently cycles into and out of a state 104(grid frequency not within admissible range). The utility has monitored the supply and claims to have found no frequency or supply issues. Fronius sent a replacement inverter but the error persists. The tie in point was moved from the critical loads sub panel to the main distribution panel. The state 104 persists with ALL other breakers open. A Fluke DMM min/max function captures no frequency readings outside of the inverter frequency window-same with voltage readings. Any suggestions or recommendations? Thanks, Jeff ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Fronius State 104
Kent,I just talked with Mike in the meter department. The utility does indeed use Aclara TWACs AMR. The meter reading signal can vary but is usually done at midnight or it could be set to every 8 hours, 1 hour, etc. However, a time sync signal is sent every 15 minutes. This correlates with the problem inverter going into state 104's at various times after connecting to the grid observed from 1-11 minutes. Unfortunately I was informed that the time sync signal can not be changed.Mike told me that there are two or three other Fronius inverters on their system without problems, he did not know if they are IG or IG+.Jeff Jeff WongstromNABCEP Certified406.291.3416thirstylakesolar.com On Oct 8, 2012, at 7:38 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: Jeff, Is there any chance the utility has recently implemented a remote meter reading system? The Aclara TWACs remote meter reading system communicates by putting a pulse on the line that is very near the zero crossing of the voltage waveform. Unfortunately the zero crossing is easily and often used as a reference point for frequency measurements. Devices that watch the zero crossings are often confused by the TWACS signal. The signal isn't there constantly -- only when the local kWr meter has been asked to send data. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com t: 541-568-4882 On 10/8/2012 9:34 AM, Jeff Wongstrom wrote: Hello wrenches, We have a Fronius IG3000 that chronically and frequently cycles into and out of a state 104(grid frequency not within admissible range). The utility has monitored the supply and claims to have found no frequency or supply issues. Fronius sent a replacement inverter but the error persists. The tie in point was moved from the critical loads sub panel to the main distribution panel. The state 104 persists with ALL other breakers open. A Fluke DMM min/max function captures no frequency readings outside of the inverter frequency window-same with voltage readings. Any suggestions or recommendations? Thanks, Jeff Mail Attachment.jpeg Jeff Wongstrom NABCEP Certified 406.291.3416 thirstylakesolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Fronius State 104
Jeff, The TWACs signal is a nasty beast. It is low frequency and thus very hard to filter. It seems to cause problems with a large variety of devices. Unless someone has taken the time to check, how do they know if the other inverters aren't offline for 5 of every 15 minutes? I think the time sync signal may be broadcast from the substation only with no reply from the individual meters. The problems I've seen have always been when the local meter is sending data; that only takes a few seconds but it takes the inverter offline for five minutes. So if you are seeing problems with the time sync signal, I'd guess that the installation must be close to the substation where the signal originates. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com t: 541-568-4882 On 10/9/2012 9:20 AM, Jeff Wongstrom wrote: Kent, I just talked with Mike in the meter department. The utility does indeed use Aclara TWACs AMR. The meter reading signal can vary but is usually done at midnight or it could be set to every 8 hours, 1 hour, etc. However, a time sync signal is sent every 15 minutes. This correlates with the problem inverter going into state 104's at various times after connecting to the grid observed from 1-11 minutes. Unfortunately I was informed that the time sync signal can not be changed. Mike told me that there are two or three other Fronius inverters on their system without problems, he did not know if they are IG or IG+. Jeff Jeff Wongstrom NABCEP Certified 406.291.3416 thirstylakesolar.com http://www.thirstylakesolar.com On Oct 8, 2012, at 7:38 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: Jeff, Is there any chance the utility has recently implemented a remote meter reading system? The Aclara TWACs http://www.aclaratech.com/AclaraPLS/specsheets/TWACS_UMT-R.pdf remote meter reading system communicates by putting a pulse on the line that is very near the zero crossing of the voltage waveform. Unfortunately the zero crossing is easily and often used as a reference point for frequency measurements. Devices that watch the zero crossings are often confused by the TWACS signal. The signal isn't there constantly -- only when the local kWr meter has been asked to send data. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com t: 541-568-4882 On 10/8/2012 9:34 AM, Jeff Wongstrom wrote: Hello wrenches, We have a Fronius IG3000 that chronically and frequently cycles into and out of a state 104(grid frequency not within admissible range). The utility has monitored the supply and claims to have found no frequency or supply issues. Fronius sent a replacement inverter but the error persists. The tie in point was moved from the critical loads sub panel to the main distribution panel. The state 104 persists with ALL other breakers open. A Fluke DMM min/max function captures no frequency readings outside of the inverter frequency window-same with voltage readings. Any suggestions or recommendations? Thanks, Jeff Mail Attachment.jpeg Jeff Wongstrom NABCEP Certified 406.291.3416 thirstylakesolar.com http://www.thirstylakesolar.com/ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Fronius State 104
Jeff- See if you can find a PowerSight power meter (http://www.powersight.com/; in PGE territory, we can borrow them from PGE for free). This will allow you to log and chart frequency. Present your data to Fronius, and assuming that your grid frequency is actually within permissible range, push them to send you an IG+ as a replacement. I went through 4 IGs before I got an IG+, and now no more state 104 errors. Good luck, -Phil Boutelle On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Jeff Wongstrom jeff.wongst...@thirstylakesolar.com wrote: Hello wrenches, We have a Fronius IG3000 that chronically and frequently cycles into and out of a state 104(grid frequency not within admissible range). The utility has monitored the supply and claims to have found no frequency or supply issues. Fronius sent a replacement inverter but the error persists. The tie in point was moved from the critical loads sub panel to the main distribution panel. The state 104 persists with ALL other breakers open. A Fluke DMM min/max function captures no frequency readings outside of the inverter frequency window-same with voltage readings. Any suggestions or recommendations? Thanks, Jeff Jeff Wongstrom NABCEP Certified 406.291.3416 thirstylakesolar.com http://www.thirstylakesolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Fronius State 104
Jeff, Is there any chance the utility has recently implemented a remote meter reading system? The Aclara TWACs remote meter reading system communicates by putting a pulse on the line that is very near the zero crossing of the voltage waveform. Unfortunately the zero crossing is easily and often used as a reference point for frequency measurements. Devices that watch the zero crossings are often confused by the TWACS signal. The signal isn't there constantly -- only when the local kWr meter has been asked to send data. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com t: 541-568-4882 On 10/8/2012 9:34 AM, Jeff Wongstrom wrote: Hello wrenches, We have a Fronius IG3000 that chronically and frequently cycles into and out of a state 104(grid frequency not within admissible range). The utility has monitored the supply and claims to have found no frequency or supply issues. Fronius sent a replacement inverter but the error persists. The tie in point was moved from the critical loads sub panel to the main distribution panel. The state 104 persists with ALL other breakers open. A Fluke DMM min/max function captures no frequency readings outside of the inverter frequency window-same with voltage readings. Any suggestions or recommendations? Thanks, Jeff Jeff Wongstrom NABCEP Certified 406.291.3416 thirstylakesolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
