[RE-wrenches] In search of better generator start relay for Outback system

[Dan Fink via RE-wrenches]

Esteemed Wrenches - Finally successfully troubleshot an intermittent AGS
problem that has been nagging one of my remote-grid clients for 1.5 winters
now. Of course it's a 4-hour drive from my office.

During winter snowstorms (when they need the AGS the most of course) the
generator had only about 50:50 chance of starting. So I'd travel to the
site (sometimes just the client would do it and I'd guide him by phone),
pull up the Gen menu on the Mate 3S, hit ON and it wouldn't start. No
bueno. Walk up to the generator (propane with Honda engine) and verify it's
on Auto. Start it with the main switch to ON, starts right up, so not a gen
battery problem. Run it for an hour or so, stop it with the switch on the
gen, put it back to Auto, and everything works perfectly from Mate 3S AGS
for 1-2 days, including remote start from OpticsRE. Then the problem
(sometimes) comes up again when nobody is there.

I just happened to hit the site at exactly the right time last week right
as a big snowstorm was moving in, and was finally able to figure it out
with really good raingear and a multimeter: The Outback Flexware remote gen
start relay OBR-16-DIN was icing up internally, I had added it in the gen
compartment when we upgraded the client from an old Trace SW  to an Outback
(SW had a big AGS relay, Outback sent a 12VDC signal to trigger the
external relay we added).

DIAG - new Outback OBR-16-DIN relay would get frosty internally when high
humidity snowstorms would move in, that's why it sometimes didn't work from
the Mate 3S or OpticsRE. Run the gen for an hour, the internal gen
compartment warms up, the frost melts off of the relay, then all the AGS
from Mate 3S and OpticsRE works fine.

Have any of all y'all run into this problem, and is there a more reliable
relay to use that won't ice up? not outside exposed to weather, but inside
the outside gen enclosure. I have zero space available in the VFX  MNDC
enclosure in the house to put in the Flexware AGS relay, it would need a
separate enclosure.

The easiest solution I can see is just find a relay to fit into the gen
compartment that does the same as the Outback version, but doesn't ice up.

Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions.

Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
NABCEP PV Associate
d anbo...@gmail.com
970-672-4342
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Re: [RE-wrenches] In search of better generator start relay for Outback system

[Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches]

G'day Dan,

I've been using the Dorman 5 pin, 30A 12v relay, p/n 88069 for several
years. I've found them at Auto Zone or sometimes I just buy them online.

Good Luck,
Christopher

On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 12:28 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Esteemed Wrenches - Finally successfully troubleshot an intermittent AGS
> problem that has been nagging one of my remote-grid clients for 1.5 winters
> now. Of course it's a 4-hour drive from my office.
>
> During winter snowstorms (when they need the AGS the most of course) the
> generator had only about 50:50 chance of starting. So I'd travel to the
> site (sometimes just the client would do it and I'd guide him by phone),
> pull up the Gen menu on the Mate 3S, hit ON and it wouldn't start. No
> bueno. Walk up to the generator (propane with Honda engine) and verify it's
> on Auto. Start it with the main switch to ON, starts right up, so not a gen
> battery problem. Run it for an hour or so, stop it with the switch on the
> gen, put it back to Auto, and everything works perfectly from Mate 3S AGS
> for 1-2 days, including remote start from OpticsRE. Then the problem
> (sometimes) comes up again when nobody is there.
>
> I just happened to hit the site at exactly the right time last week right
> as a big snowstorm was moving in, and was finally able to figure it out
> with really good raingear and a multimeter: The Outback Flexware remote gen
> start relay OBR-16-DIN was icing up internally, I had added it in the gen
> compartment when we upgraded the client from an old Trace SW  to an Outback
> (SW had a big AGS relay, Outback sent a 12VDC signal to trigger the
> external relay we added).
>
> DIAG - new Outback OBR-16-DIN relay would get frosty internally when high
> humidity snowstorms would move in, that's why it sometimes didn't work from
> the Mate 3S or OpticsRE. Run the gen for an hour, the internal gen
> compartment warms up, the frost melts off of the relay, then all the AGS
> from Mate 3S and OpticsRE works fine.
>
> Have any of all y'all run into this problem, and is there a more reliable
> relay to use that won't ice up? not outside exposed to weather, but inside
> the outside gen enclosure. I have zero space available in the VFX  MNDC
> enclosure in the house to put in the Flexware AGS relay, it would need a
> separate enclosure.
>
> The easiest solution I can see is just find a relay to fit into the gen
> compartment that does the same as the Outback version, but doesn't ice up.
>
> Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions.
>
> Dan Fink
> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
> NABCEP PV Associate
> d anbo...@gmail.com
> 970-672-4342
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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>

-- 

Chris Schaefer’s


*Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
*5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
 ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
*


Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."
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Re: [RE-wrenches] In search of better generator start relay for Outback system

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

I would use a sealed relay. The SS one should work. Or a 12v cube relay like in cars.  Super cheap and reliable JayBOSCH 0332209150 Changeover Mini Relay - 5 Pins, 12 V, 20/30 A - Singleamazon.comOn Feb 9, 2024, at 12:55 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches  wrote:Dan: I think a solid state relay is indicated here.  There are many out there.  Here is a link to one at Digikey: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/wago-corporation/859-739/15520805 The datasheet (attached) shows operating limits of -25 to 70 degree C.  There are other options at Digikey that work down to -40 degrees C. Good luck, William Miller Solar17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422805-438-5600www.millersolar.comCA Lic. 773985  From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink via RE-wrenchesSent: Friday, February 9, 2024 9:28 AMTo: RE-wrenchesCc: Dan FinkSubject: [RE-wrenches] In search of better generator start relay for Outback system Esteemed Wrenches - Finally successfully troubleshot an intermittent AGS problem that has been nagging one of my remote-grid clients for 1.5 winters now. Of course it's a 4-hour drive from my office. During winter snowstorms (when they need the AGS the most of course) the generator had only about 50:50 chance of starting. So I'd travel to the site (sometimes just the client would do it and I'd guide him by phone), pull up the Gen menu on the Mate 3S, hit ON and it wouldn't start. No bueno. Walk up to the generator (propane with Honda engine) and verify it's on Auto. Start it with the main switch to ON, starts right up, so not a gen battery problem. Run it for an hour or so, stop it with the switch on the gen, put it back to Auto, and everything works perfectly from Mate 3S AGS for 1-2 days, including remote start from OpticsRE. Then the problem (sometimes) comes up again when nobody is there. I just happened to hit the site at exactly the right time last week right as a big snowstorm was moving in, and was finally able to figure it out with really good raingear and a multimeter: The Outback Flexware remote gen start relay OBR-16-DIN was icing up internally, I had added it in the gen compartment when we upgraded the client from an old Trace SW  to an Outback (SW had a big AGS relay, Outback sent a 12VDC signal to trigger the external relay we added). DIAG - new Outback OBR-16-DIN relay would get frosty internally when high humidity snowstorms would move in, that's why it sometimes didn't work from the Mate 3S or OpticsRE. Run the gen for an hour, the internal gen compartment warms up, the frost melts off of the relay, then all the AGS from Mate 3S and OpticsRE works fine. Have any of all y'all run into this problem, and is there a more reliable relay to use that won't ice up? not outside exposed to weather, but inside the outside gen enclosure. I have zero space available in the VFX  MNDC enclosure in the house to put in the Flexware AGS relay, it would need a separate enclosure. The easiest solution I can see is just find a relay to fit into the gen compartment that does the same as the Outback version, but doesn't ice up. Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions. Dan FinkOwner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLCIREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind InstallationNABCEP Certified PV System InspectorNABCEP PV Associatedanbo...@gmail.com970-672-4342 
___List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] In search of better generator start relay for Outback system

[Roy Butler via RE-wrenches]

Jay,

This has been my go to relay for the last 21 years, no failures. In all 
sorts of environmental conditions.

Unlike the generators they are supposed to start...but I digress...

Roy Butler
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC

Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you 
don’t.

“The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.”

Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message,
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.




On 2/9/2024 7:00 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote:

I would use a sealed relay.

The SS one should work. Or a 12v cube relay like in cars.
Super cheap and reliable

Jay

31CBOICBnYL._SR600,315_PIWhiteStrip,BottomLeft,0,35_PIStarRatingFOURANDHALF,BottomLeft,360,-6_SR600,315_ZA892,445,290,400,400,AmazonEmberBold,12,4,0,0,5_SCLZZZ_FMpng_BG255,255,255.jpg 

BOSCH 0332209150 Changeover Mini Relay - 5 Pins, 12 V, 20/30 A - 
Single 
<https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-0332209150-Fuel-Injection-Relay/dp/B004Z0U1IW/ref=asc_df_B004Z0U1IW/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366288796258&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9637219655584602788&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030399&hvtargid=pla-310538454416&psc=1&mcid=e8c1e56604c837b8a724b0ee0121156d&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=83058288464&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366288796258&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9637219655584602788&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030399&hvtargid=pla-310538454416>
amazon.com 
<https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-0332209150-Fuel-Injection-Relay/dp/B004Z0U1IW/ref=asc_df_B004Z0U1IW/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366288796258&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9637219655584602788&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030399&hvtargid=pla-310538454416&psc=1&mcid=e8c1e56604c837b8a724b0ee0121156d&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=83058288464&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366288796258&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9637219655584602788&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030399&hvtargid=pla-310538454416>


<https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-0332209150-Fuel-Injection-Relay/dp/B004Z0U1IW/ref=asc_df_B004Z0U1IW/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366288796258&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9637219655584602788&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030399&hvtargid=pla-310538454416&psc=1&mcid=e8c1e56604c837b8a724b0ee0121156d&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=83058288464&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366288796258&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9637219655584602788&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030399&hvtargid=pla-310538454416>


On Feb 9, 2024, at 12:55 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:




Dan:

I think a solid state relay is indicated here.  There are many out 
there.  Here is a link to one at Digikey:


https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/wago-corporation/859-739/15520805

The datasheet (attached) shows operating limits of -25 to 70 degree 
C.  There are other options at Digikey that work down to -40 degrees C.


Good luck,

William

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>

CA Lic. 773985

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] 
*On Behalf Of *Dan Fink via RE-wrenches

*Sent:* Friday, February 9, 2024 9:28 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Dan Fink
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] In search of better generator start relay 
for Outback system


Esteemed Wrenches - Finally successfully troubleshot an intermittent 
AGS problem that has been nagging one of my remote-grid clients for 
1.5 winters now. Of course it's a 4-hour drive from my office.


During winter snowstorms (when they need the AGS the most of course) 
the generator had only about 50:50 chance of starting. So I'd travel 
to the site (sometimes just the client would do it and I'd guide him 
by phone), pull up the Gen menu on the Mate 3S, hit ON and it 
wouldn't start. No bueno. Walk up to the generator (propane with 
Honda engine) and verify it's on Auto. Start it with the main switch 
to ON, starts right up, so not a gen battery problem. Run it for an 
hour or so, stop it with the switch on the gen, put it back to Auto, 
and everything works perfectly from Mate 3S AGS for 1-2 
days, including remote start from OpticsRE. Then the problem 
(sometimes) comes up again when nobody is there.


I just happened to hit the site at exactly the right time last week 
right as a big snowstorm was moving in, and was finally able to 
figure it out with really good raingear and a multimeter: The Outback 
Flexware remote gen start relay OBR-16-DIN was icing up internally, I 
had added it in the gen compartment when

Re: [RE-wrenches] In search of better generator start relay for Outback system

[John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches]

I agree with Roy and Jay.  No failures since exclusively using the auto
cube relay triggered by any of the Outback relays in the inverter or charge
controllers. I'm having good luck
keeping a Magnum based system running remotely and on auto using an old
MX60 I had hanging around it for its aux 12v output relay to trigger the
the cube and starting a Generac EcoGen 14 k.  All I can see on Optics is
battery voltage and  temperature at the water pipes using the battery temp
sensor and generator hours from the AGS set ip as a DC Genset.  All I need
to know  pipes won't freeze and the generator will start. (PS I can use
the temp sensor as I am not using the Outback for battery charging as not
recommended for LFP batteries.
If the generator needs 3 wire start, such as the Honda 6 or 7K propane
generator. I use the Atkinson Mini autostart module triggered by the cube
relay.  Only one failure an it was the Atkinson unit.

John Blittersdorf

NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™



CV Wind Service (and solar)

200 West Road

N Chittenden, VT 05763

802-770-8625

www.offgridvermont.com


On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 7:13 PM Roy Butler via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Jay,
>
> This has been my go to relay for the last 21 years, no failures. In all
> sorts of environmental conditions.
> Unlike the generators they are supposed to start...but I digress...
>
> Roy Butler
> Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
>
> Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when 
> you don’t.
>
> “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.”
>
> Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message,
> a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>
>
>
> On 2/9/2024 7:00 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> I would use a sealed relay.
>
> The SS one should work. Or a 12v cube relay like in cars.
> Super cheap and reliable
>
> Jay
>
> [image:
> 31CBOICBnYL._SR600,315_PIWhiteStrip,BottomLeft,0,35_PIStarRatingFOURANDHALF,BottomLeft,360,-6_SR600,315_ZA892,445,290,400,400,AmazonEmberBold,12,4,0,0,5_SCLZZZ_FMpng_BG255,255,255.jpg]
>
> BOSCH 0332209150 Changeover Mini Relay - 5 Pins, 12 V, 20/30 A - Single
> <https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-0332209150-Fuel-Injection-Relay/dp/B004Z0U1IW/ref=asc_df_B004Z0U1IW/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366288796258&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9637219655584602788&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030399&hvtargid=pla-310538454416&psc=1&mcid=e8c1e56604c837b8a724b0ee0121156d&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=83058288464&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366288796258&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9637219655584602788&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030399&hvtargid=pla-310538454416>
> amazon.com
> <https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-0332209150-Fuel-Injection-Relay/dp/B004Z0U1IW/ref=asc_df_B004Z0U1IW/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366288796258&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9637219655584602788&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030399&hvtargid=pla-310538454416&psc=1&mcid=e8c1e56604c837b8a724b0ee0121156d&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=83058288464&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366288796258&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9637219655584602788&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030399&hvtargid=pla-310538454416>
>
> <https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-0332209150-Fuel-Injection-Relay/dp/B004Z0U1IW/ref=asc_df_B004Z0U1IW/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366288796258&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9637219655584602788&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030399&hvtargid=pla-310538454416&psc=1&mcid=e8c1e56604c837b8a724b0ee0121156d&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=83058288464&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366288796258&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9637219655584602788&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030399&hvtargid=pla-310538454416>
>
>
> On Feb 9, 2024, at 12:55 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches
>  
> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Dan:
>
>
>
> I think a solid state relay is indicated here.  There are many out there.
> Here is a link to one at Digikey:
>
>
>
>
> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/wago-corporation/859-739/15520805
>
>
>
> The datasheet (attached) shows operating limits of -25 to 70 degree C.
> There are other options at Digikey that work down to -40 degrees C.
>
>
>
> Good luck,
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
&g