Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning Protection System
A little late to the party here, but it might interest you all to know that the military has its own well-constructed standards for lightning protection. Army Technical Manual 5-690 is a wonderful educational resource that explains the rationale for various measures quite clearly (and covers much of what NFPA 780 requires, but at no charge to the reader.) On Jul 31, 2010, at 14:28 , Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun Wind wrote: Hi All, I'm working on the design for a PV Wind power system for a military installation. The specs call for Lightning Protection as follows: Provide a complete lightning protection system with a UL Lightning Protection Inspection Certificate. including, but not necessarily limited to, strike termination devices, conductors, ground terminals, interconnecting conductors, surge suppression devices, and other connectors and fittings required for a complete and usable system. Anyone have an idea of what qualifies? Is there a package product that has the UL Lightning Protection Inspection Certificate? Thanks, -Kelly Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Whidbey Sun Wind Renewable Energy Systems NABCEP Certified PV Installer ke...@whidbeysunwind.com 360.678.7131 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning Protection System
David, Sounds like a perfect solution to me. The UL website lists 14 pages of Listed Installers for lightning protection, about 70% located in the Southeast, and the closest to WA State in Utah or SoCal. Do you recall the name of any such firm you liked to work with and were reasonable with their bids? It would be nice not to have to cold call from such a large list. Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Whidbey Sun Wind Renewable Energy Systems 987 Wanamaker Rd. Coupeville, WA 98239 ke...@whidbeysunwind.com PH FAX: 360.678.7131 NABCEP Certified PV Installer WA Electrical Administrator On Aug 1, 2010, at 8:24 AM, David Brearley wrote: Kelly, When I came across language like this in an RFP, my assumption was that we needed to work with a specialty lightning protection subcontractor, a firm listed by UL. I would call them up, give them a project description and request a quote, which I would build into our cost estimate for the project. Included in their scope of work is providing a “UL Listed Lightning Protection Certificate.” You can include that scope of work as a line item in our proposal. If the proposal requires that you include resumes for key team members, you might also include the lightning company’s bio as it shows you’ve done your due diligence. On the projects that I managed in this fashion, the lightning protection company always came in after our construction was substantially complete. There may be cases where you want to coordinate the that scope of work differently and get them on site earlier. They should be able to tell you what will work best, based on the general project description and your specific equipment grounding scheme. David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ david.brear...@solarprofessional.com On 7/31/10 3:28 PM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun Wind ke...@whidbeysunwind.com wrote: Hi All, I'm working on the design for a PV Wind power system for a military installation. The specs call for Lightning Protection as follows: Provide a complete lightning protection system with a UL Lightning Protection Inspection Certificate. including, but not necessarily limited to, strike termination devices, conductors, ground terminals, interconnecting conductors, surge suppression devices, and other connectors and fittings required for a complete and usable system. Anyone have an idea of what qualifies? Is there a package product that has the UL Lightning Protection Inspection Certificate? Thanks, -Kelly Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Whidbey Sun Wind Renewable Energy Systems NABCEP Certified PV Installer ke...@whidbeysunwind.com 360.678.7131 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning Protection System
Kelly, The company we used the most is Bonded Lightning Protection Systems: http://www.bondedlp.com/ They had local offices for our projects in Austin, TX and a regional HQ. Also, they had installed many of the lightning protection systems that we came across on existing buildings, including semiconductor fabs. We¹d also run into them regularly on new construction projects. Maybe they can help you or point you to a company that serves the NW? There must not be a lot of lightning activity in the areajudging by the absence of service providerswhich makes me wonder if this language is really appropriate for this particular project. Is it really a design standard for federal projects? Or is it just goo left in the bid package specifications from a site in a lightning prone region? Best, David On 8/2/10 1:34 AM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun Wind ke...@whidbeysunwind.com wrote: David, Sounds like a perfect solution to me. The UL website lists 14 pages of Listed Installers for lightning protection, about 70% located in the Southeast, and the closest to WA State in Utah or SoCal. Do you recall the name of any such firm you liked to work with and were reasonable with their bids? It would be nice not to have to cold call from such a large list. Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Whidbey Sun Wind Renewable Energy Systems 987 Wanamaker Rd. Coupeville, WA 98239 ke...@whidbeysunwind.com PH FAX: 360.678.7131 NABCEP Certified PV Installer WA Electrical Administrator On Aug 1, 2010, at 8:24 AM, David Brearley wrote: Kelly, When I came across language like this in an RFP, my assumption was that we needed to work with a specialty lightning protection subcontractor, a firm listed by UL. I would call them up, give them a project description and request a quote, which I would build into our cost estimate for the project. Included in their scope of work is providing a ³UL Listed Lightning Protection Certificate.² You can include that scope of work as a line item in our proposal. If the proposal requires that you include resumes for key team members, you might also include the lightning company¹s bio as it shows you¹ve done your due diligence. On the projects that I managed in this fashion, the lightning protection company always came in after our construction was substantially complete. There may be cases where you want to coordinate the that scope of work differently and get them on site earlier. They should be able to tell you what will work best, based on the general project description and your specific equipment grounding scheme. David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer david.brear...@solarprofessional.com On 7/31/10 3:28 PM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun Wind ke...@whidbeysunwind.com wrote: Hi All, I'm working on the design for a PV Wind power system for a military installation. The specs call for Lightning Protection as follows: Provide a complete lightning protection system with a UL Lightning Protection Inspection Certificate. including, but not necessarily limited to, strike termination devices, conductors, ground terminals, interconnecting conductors, surge suppression devices, and other connectors and fittings required for a complete and usable system. Anyone have an idea of what qualifies? Is there a package product that has the UL Lightning Protection Inspection Certificate? Thanks, -Kelly Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Whidbey Sun Wind Renewable Energy Systems NABCEP Certified PV Installer ke...@whidbeysunwind.com 360.678.7131 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning Protection System
I have worked with Heary Brothers out of NY for ESS - Early stream emission devices http://www.hearybros.com/ Come with a lifetime $100 million insurance policy. I have 4 of these systems in and no one has taken a direct hit since installation. UL listed etc... Thanks, Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc E - d...@solarwork.com V - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 web - www.solarwork.com Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Brearley Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:29 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning Protection System Kelly, The company we used the most is Bonded Lightning Protection Systems: http://www.bondedlp.com/ They had local offices for our projects in Austin, TX and a regional HQ. Also, they had installed many of the lightning protection systems that we came across on existing buildings, including semiconductor fabs. We'd also run into them regularly on new construction projects. Maybe they can help you or point you to a company that serves the NW? There must not be a lot of lightning activity in the area-judging by the absence of service providers-which makes me wonder if this language is really appropriate for this particular project. Is it really a design standard for federal projects? Or is it just goo left in the bid package specifications from a site in a lightning prone region? Best, David On 8/2/10 1:34 AM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun Wind ke...@whidbeysunwind.com wrote: David, Sounds like a perfect solution to me. The UL website lists 14 pages of Listed Installers for lightning protection, about 70% located in the Southeast, and the closest to WA State in Utah or SoCal. Do you recall the name of any such firm you liked to work with and were reasonable with their bids? It would be nice not to have to cold call from such a large list. Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Whidbey Sun Wind Renewable Energy Systems 987 Wanamaker Rd. Coupeville, WA 98239 ke...@whidbeysunwind.com PH FAX: 360.678.7131 NABCEP Certified PV Installer WA Electrical Administrator On Aug 1, 2010, at 8:24 AM, David Brearley wrote: Kelly, When I came across language like this in an RFP, my assumption was that we needed to work with a specialty lightning protection subcontractor, a firm listed by UL. I would call them up, give them a project description and request a quote, which I would build into our cost estimate for the project. Included in their scope of work is providing a UL Listed Lightning Protection Certificate. You can include that scope of work as a line item in our proposal. If the proposal requires that you include resumes for key team members, you might also include the lightning company's bio as it shows you've done your due diligence. On the projects that I managed in this fashion, the lightning protection company always came in after our construction was substantially complete. There may be cases where you want to coordinate the that scope of work differently and get them on site earlier. They should be able to tell you what will work best, based on the general project description and your specific equipment grounding scheme. David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer T david.brear...@solarprofessional.com On 7/31/10 3:28 PM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun Wind ke...@whidbeysunwind.com wrote: Hi All, I'm working on the design for a PV Wind power system for a military installation. The specs call for Lightning Protection as follows: Provide a complete lightning protection system with a UL Lightning Protection Inspection Certificate. including, but not necessarily limited to, strike termination devices, conductors, ground terminals, interconnecting conductors, surge suppression devices, and other connectors and fittings required for a complete and usable system. Anyone have an idea of what qualifies? Is there a package product that has the UL Lightning Protection Inspection Certificate? Thanks, -Kelly Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Whidbey Sun Wind Renewable Energy Systems NABCEP Certified PV Installer ke...@whidbeysunwind.com 360.678.7131 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3044 - Release Date: 08/02/10 00:35:00 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning Protection System
Opps $10 million insurance policy. Thanks, Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc E - d...@solarwork.com V - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 web - www.solarwork.com Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:56 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning Protection System I have worked with Heary Brothers out of NY for ESS - Early stream emission devices http://www.hearybros.com/ Come with a lifetime $100 million insurance policy. I have 4 of these systems in and no one has taken a direct hit since installation. UL listed etc... Thanks, Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc E - d...@solarwork.com V - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 web - www.solarwork.com Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Brearley Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:29 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning Protection System Kelly, The company we used the most is Bonded Lightning Protection Systems: http://www.bondedlp.com/ They had local offices for our projects in Austin, TX and a regional HQ. Also, they had installed many of the lightning protection systems that we came across on existing buildings, including semiconductor fabs. We'd also run into them regularly on new construction projects. Maybe they can help you or point you to a company that serves the NW? There must not be a lot of lightning activity in the area-judging by the absence of service providers-which makes me wonder if this language is really appropriate for this particular project. Is it really a design standard for federal projects? Or is it just goo left in the bid package specifications from a site in a lightning prone region? Best, David On 8/2/10 1:34 AM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun Wind ke...@whidbeysunwind.com wrote: David, Sounds like a perfect solution to me. The UL website lists 14 pages of Listed Installers for lightning protection, about 70% located in the Southeast, and the closest to WA State in Utah or SoCal. Do you recall the name of any such firm you liked to work with and were reasonable with their bids? It would be nice not to have to cold call from such a large list. Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Whidbey Sun Wind Renewable Energy Systems 987 Wanamaker Rd. Coupeville, WA 98239 ke...@whidbeysunwind.com PH FAX: 360.678.7131 NABCEP Certified PV Installer WA Electrical Administrator On Aug 1, 2010, at 8:24 AM, David Brearley wrote: Kelly, When I came across language like this in an RFP, my assumption was that we needed to work with a specialty lightning protection subcontractor, a firm listed by UL. I would call them up, give them a project description and request a quote, which I would build into our cost estimate for the project. Included in their scope of work is providing a UL Listed Lightning Protection Certificate. You can include that scope of work as a line item in our proposal. If the proposal requires that you include resumes for key team members, you might also include the lightning company's bio as it shows you've done your due diligence. On the projects that I managed in this fashion, the lightning protection company always came in after our construction was substantially complete. There may be cases where you want to coordinate the that scope of work differently and get them on site earlier. They should be able to tell you what will work best, based on the general project description and your specific equipment grounding scheme. David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer T david.brear...@solarprofessional.com On 7/31/10 3:28 PM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun Wind ke...@whidbeysunwind.com wrote: Hi All, I'm working on the design for a PV Wind power system for a military installation. The specs call for Lightning Protection as follows: Provide a complete lightning protection system with a UL Lightning Protection Inspection Certificate. including, but not necessarily limited to, strike termination devices, conductors, ground terminals, interconnecting conductors, surge suppression devices, and other connectors and fittings required for a complete and usable system. Anyone have an idea of what qualifies? Is there a package product that has the UL Lightning Protection Inspection Certificate? Thanks, -Kelly Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Whidbey Sun Wind Renewable Energy Systems NABCEP Certified PV Installer ke...@whidbeysunwind.com 360.678.7131 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3044 - Release Date: 08/02/10 00:35:00 No virus found in this incoming
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning Protection System
Thanks, David Not much lightening here. LOTS of leftover ignorant goo in these specs. Like 20 to 30 kW of VAWT's with specs just like the subject of a recent thread on this list entitled Wind Scam Only the best for the US military! Kelly, from mobile On Aug 2, 2010, at 9:29, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com wrote: Kelly, The company we used the most is Bonded Lightning Protection Systems: http://www.bondedlp.com/ They had local offices for our projects in Austin, TX and a regional HQ. Also, they had installed many of the lightning protection systems that we came across on existing buildings, including semiconductor fabs. We’d also run into them regularly on new construction projects. Maybe they can help you or point you to a company that serves the NW? There must not be a lot of lightning activity in the area—judging by the absence of service providers—which makes me wonder if this language is really appropriate for this particular project. Is it really a design standard for federal projects? Or is it just goo left in the bid package specifications from a site in a lightning prone region? Best, David On 8/2/10 1:34 AM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun Wind ke...@whidbeysunwind.com wrote: David, Sounds like a perfect solution to me. The UL website lists 14 pages of Listed Installers for lightning protection, about 70% located in the Southeast, and the closest to WA State in Utah or SoCal. Do you recall the name of any such firm you liked to work with and were reasonable with their bids? It would be nice not to have to cold call from such a large list. Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Whidbey Sun Wind Renewable Energy Systems 987 Wanamaker Rd. Coupeville, WA 98239 ke...@whidbeysunwind.com PH FAX: 360.678.7131 NABCEP Certified PV Installer WA Electrical Administrator On Aug 1, 2010, at 8:24 AM, David Brearley wrote: Kelly, When I came across language like this in an RFP, my assumption was that we needed to work with a specialty lightning protection subcontractor, a firm listed by UL. I would call them up, give them a project description and request a quote, which I would build into our cost estimate for the project. Included in their scope of work is providing a “UL Listed Lightning Protection Certificate.” You can include that scope of work as a line item in our proposal. If the proposal requires that you include resumes for key team members, you might also include the lightning company’s bio as it shows you’ve done your due diligence. On the projects that I managed in this fashion, the lightning protection company always came in after our construction was substantially complete. There may be cases where you want to coordinate the that scope of work differently and get them on site earlier. They should be able to tell you what will work best, based on the general project description and your specific equipment grounding scheme. David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ david.brear...@solarprofessional.com On 7/31/10 3:28 PM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun Wind ke...@whidbeysunwind.com wrote: Hi All, I'm working on the design for a PV Wind power system for a military installation. The specs call for Lightning Protection as follows: Provide a complete lightning protection system with a UL Lightning Protection Inspection Certificate. including, but not necessarily limited to, strike termination devices, conductors, ground terminals, interconnecting conductors, surge suppression devices, and other connectors and fittings required for a complete and usable system. Anyone have an idea of what qualifies? Is there a package product that has the UL Lightning Protection Inspection Certificate? Thanks, -Kelly Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Whidbey Sun Wind Renewable Energy Systems NABCEP Certified PV Installer ke...@whidbeysunwind.com 360.678.7131 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Lightning Protection System
Hi All, I'm working on the design for a PV Wind power system for a military installation. The specs call for Lightning Protection as follows: Provide a complete lightning protection system with a UL Lightning Protection Inspection Certificate. including, but not necessarily limited to, strike termination devices, conductors, ground terminals, interconnecting conductors, surge suppression devices, and other connectors and fittings required for a complete and usable system. Anyone have an idea of what qualifies? Is there a package product that has the UL Lightning Protection Inspection Certificate? Thanks, -Kelly Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Whidbey Sun Wind Renewable Energy Systems NABCEP Certified PV Installer ke...@whidbeysunwind.com 360.678.7131 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Lightning Protection System
Kelly I'm sure there are other sources of UL certified grounding components but ALT Fabrication is a full service manufacturer and distributor. At one time they offered design services but I'm not sure if that's still available. http://www.altfabrication.com/ Jim Duncan NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer No.31310-57 TECL 27398 North Texas Renewable Energy 486 W.N. Woody Road Azle Texas 76020 Since 1993 nt...@1scom.net 817.917.0527 www.ntrei.com -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]on Behalf Of Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun Wind Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 3:28 PM To: RE Wrenches listserve Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lightning Protection System Hi All, I'm working on the design for a PV Wind power system for a military installation. The specs call for Lightning Protection as follows: Provide a complete lightning protection system with a UL Lightning Protection Inspection Certificate. including, but not necessarily limited to, strike termination devices, conductors, ground terminals, interconnecting conductors, surge suppression devices, and other connectors and fittings required for a complete and usable system. Anyone have an idea of what qualifies? Is there a package product that has the UL Lightning Protection Inspection Certificate? Thanks, -Kelly Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Whidbey Sun Wind Renewable Energy Systems NABCEP Certified PV Installer ke...@whidbeysunwind.com 360.678.7131 attachment: North Texas Renewable Energy Inc.vcf___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning protection system
Thanks Joel the Lightning and Transients research Institute has been closed, I am sorry to say. The paper is valuable and reassuring, if the module frames are properly grounded, they act as a shield and will protect the PV source and output circuits if they are shielded via conduit or coaxial cable. This also implies the grounding system should be of low resistance. DAryl --- On Tue, 3/10/09, Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning protection system To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 8:14 PM In 1983 Arco Solar and the Lightning Transients Research Institute, St. Paul, MN, presented a paper at the Greece PV conference titled Ability of Photovoltaic Modules to Withstand Lightning Strikes. Summary: The ability of glass superstrate and metal/plastic substrate modules to withstand lightning strikes was examined. Each of 3 different types of modules were exposed to 4 nearby and 1 direct strike of high voltage long arc simulated lightning (400,000 volts, 10,000 amps), and to 1 direct strike of high current, long duration lightning (150,000 to 175,000 amps, 50,000 volts). Visual and electrical examination demonstrated that the high voltage strikes produced no electrical damage to the glass superstrate modules and little to the plastic substrate module. The high current, long duration strike resulted in varying degrees of physical damage to all modules but little or no loss in electrical performance. Conclusions: The experimental data indicate that a glass front module with a rigid metal frame is able to withstand almost any lightning strike if the frame is grounded to the earth. The metal frame acts as a grounding rod attracting all the current to it. However, a strike which breaches the integrity of the encapsulation might, under some conditions, eventually destroy the module. Data from the field appear to concur with the experimental data presented in this paper but also indicate that while the modules survive a lightning storm, additional protection may be required for the cabling, power conditioning equipment, and control systems. A grounding rod will protect the array from direct strikes but further protection is required for induced voltages and side flashes they can create. Shielding (e.g. coaxial cables) will protect the wiring. The terminals of the balance of system components can be protected by the use of nonlinear circuit elements known as terminal protection devices. These devices may be nonlinear resistors or varistors, semiconductor junction devices and dielectric breakdown devices or sparkgaps. The degree of protection needed for any particular installation will be determined by factors such as site location, size of the array, safety considerations and cost. Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: Matt Tritt To: daryl_so...@yahoo.com ; RE-wrenches Cc: trang donovan Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning protection system Hi Darryl, Just to see what your take would be, and other's - what would the case be should the modules have non-conducting frames (or even no frames)is the case with some systems on the market? Matt T Darryl Thayer wrote: Yes the electric power and atmospheric grounding systems should be connected together to serve as a larger better grounding system. The Electrical code requires that at only one point does the neutral (grounded) conductor of the electrical power system get connected to the grounding system, this is to prevent the grounding electrode system from carrying electrical power system currents. The electrical power system is to be grounded to prevent the electrical power system from differentiating its self via the injection of energy from other electric power sources including atmospheric electrical energy. The lightening protection system is to create a path from the atmospheric energy to the earth grounding system. ((Wind rain, dust and friction cause the atmosphere to become charged relative to the earth, conducting objects can build a charge if not electrically connected to the earth, these current flow all the time, although they are small sometimes, and in the case of a lightening strike incredibly large. Even small currents can build large voltages and fail electronic components. The frames of solar modules are electrical conduction components not normally charged that can present a personal, and physical damage potential (life-property) if they become charged by the electrical power system and therefor the underwriters require they be protected by grounding. This accidental energy need to be safely returned to the electrical power system, and properly this is called bonding back to the neutral
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning protection system
A few years ago, Bill Brooks or another wrench specified 5 ohms or less when measured with a special meter but I can't recall the meter. No problem if the ground is saturated, but lightning in the southwest US often comes in the storm front before the soaking rain. - Original Message - From: Darryl Thayer daryl_so...@yahoo.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning protection system Thanks Joel the Lightning and Transients research Institute has been closed, I am sorry to say. The paper is valuable and reassuring, if the module frames are properly grounded, they act as a shield and will protect the PV source and output circuits if they are shielded via conduit or coaxial cable. This also implies the grounding system should be of low resistance. DAryl --- On Tue, 3/10/09, Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning protection system To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 8:14 PM In 1983 Arco Solar and the Lightning Transients Research Institute, St. Paul, MN, presented a paper at the Greece PV conference titled Ability of Photovoltaic Modules to Withstand Lightning Strikes. Summary: The ability of glass superstrate and metal/plastic substrate modules to withstand lightning strikes was examined. Each of 3 different types of modules were exposed to 4 nearby and 1 direct strike of high voltage long arc simulated lightning (400,000 volts, 10,000 amps), and to 1 direct strike of high current, long duration lightning (150,000 to 175,000 amps, 50,000 volts). Visual and electrical examination demonstrated that the high voltage strikes produced no electrical damage to the glass superstrate modules and little to the plastic substrate module. The high current, long duration strike resulted in varying degrees of physical damage to all modules but little or no loss in electrical performance. Conclusions: The experimental data indicate that a glass front module with a rigid metal frame is able to withstand almost any lightning strike if the frame is grounded to the earth. The metal frame acts as a grounding rod attracting all the current to it. However, a strike which breaches the integrity of the encapsulation might, under some conditions, eventually destroy the module. Data from the field appear to concur with the experimental data presented in this paper but also indicate that while the modules survive a lightning storm, additional protection may be required for the cabling, power conditioning equipment, and control systems. A grounding rod will protect the array from direct strikes but further protection is required for induced voltages and side flashes they can create. Shielding (e.g. coaxial cables) will protect the wiring. The terminals of the balance of system components can be protected by the use of nonlinear circuit elements known as terminal protection devices. These devices may be nonlinear resistors or varistors, semiconductor junction devices and dielectric breakdown devices or sparkgaps. The degree of protection needed for any particular installation will be determined by factors such as site location, size of the array, safety considerations and cost. Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: Matt Tritt To: daryl_so...@yahoo.com ; RE-wrenches Cc: trang donovan Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning protection system Hi Darryl, Just to see what your take would be, and other's - what would the case be should the modules have non-conducting frames (or even no frames)is the case with some systems on the market? Matt T Darryl Thayer wrote: Yes the electric power and atmospheric grounding systems should be connected together to serve as a larger better grounding system. The Electrical code requires that at only one point does the neutral (grounded) conductor of the electrical power system get connected to the grounding system, this is to prevent the grounding electrode system from carrying electrical power system currents. The electrical power system is to be grounded to prevent the electrical power system from differentiating its self via the injection of energy from other electric power sources including atmospheric electrical energy. The lightening protection system is to create a path from the atmospheric energy to the earth grounding system. ((Wind rain, dust and friction cause the atmosphere to become charged relative to the earth, conducting objects can build a charge if not electrically connected to the earth, these current flow all the time, although they are small sometimes, and in the case of a lightening strike incredibly large. Even small currents can build large voltages and fail electronic components. The frames of solar modules are electrical conduction components
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning protection system
If the lightning pulse is 10,000 amps and I want to limit it to 1000 volts I need less than 1/10 ohm. I guess that 1 ohm would be ok? yes even here in minnesota often strikes come before rain. I have used two types of meter, Fall of potential and clamp type. Fall of potential meters use two ground rods one at 100 feet away and one at 40? feet away, and your ground rod. They can measure to .01 ohm. the other type requires two ground rods, or a well or water pipe and a ground rod. you clamp the meter like an amprobe around the wire and it induces a current and measures the amount of current induced. --- On Tue, 3/10/09, Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning protection system To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 10:16 PM A few years ago, Bill Brooks or another wrench specified 5 ohms or less when measured with a special meter but I can't recall the meter. No problem if the ground is saturated, but lightning in the southwest US often comes in the storm front before the soaking rain. - Original Message - From: Darryl Thayer daryl_so...@yahoo.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning protection system Thanks Joel the Lightning and Transients research Institute has been closed, I am sorry to say. The paper is valuable and reassuring, if the module frames are properly grounded, they act as a shield and will protect the PV source and output circuits if they are shielded via conduit or coaxial cable. This also implies the grounding system should be of low resistance. DAryl --- On Tue, 3/10/09, Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning protection system To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 8:14 PM In 1983 Arco Solar and the Lightning Transients Research Institute, St. Paul, MN, presented a paper at the Greece PV conference titled Ability of Photovoltaic Modules to Withstand Lightning Strikes. Summary: The ability of glass superstrate and metal/plastic substrate modules to withstand lightning strikes was examined. Each of 3 different types of modules were exposed to 4 nearby and 1 direct strike of high voltage long arc simulated lightning (400,000 volts, 10,000 amps), and to 1 direct strike of high current, long duration lightning (150,000 to 175,000 amps, 50,000 volts). Visual and electrical examination demonstrated that the high voltage strikes produced no electrical damage to the glass superstrate modules and little to the plastic substrate module. The high current, long duration strike resulted in varying degrees of physical damage to all modules but little or no loss in electrical performance. Conclusions: The experimental data indicate that a glass front module with a rigid metal frame is able to withstand almost any lightning strike if the frame is grounded to the earth. The metal frame acts as a grounding rod attracting all the current to it. However, a strike which breaches the integrity of the encapsulation might, under some conditions, eventually destroy the module. Data from the field appear to concur with the experimental data presented in this paper but also indicate that while the modules survive a lightning storm, additional protection may be required for the cabling, power conditioning equipment, and control systems. A grounding rod will protect the array from direct strikes but further protection is required for induced voltages and side flashes they can create. Shielding (e.g. coaxial cables) will protect the wiring. The terminals of the balance of system components can be protected by the use of nonlinear circuit elements known as terminal protection devices. These devices may be nonlinear resistors or varistors, semiconductor junction devices and dielectric breakdown devices or sparkgaps. The degree of protection needed for any particular installation will be determined by factors such as site location, size of the array, safety considerations and cost. Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: Matt Tritt To: daryl_so...@yahoo.com ; RE-wrenches Cc: trang donovan Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning protection system Hi Darryl, Just to see what your take would be, and other's - what would the case be should the modules have non-conducting frames (or even no frames)is the case with some systems on the market? Matt T Darryl Thayer wrote: Yes the electric power
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lightning protection system
I didn't get a reply to the question about connecting the GEC to the lightning protection system on the 8 story building. Although this may seem like an intrinsically dangerous idea, a lightning protection system is required to be bonded to the building grounding electrode system. 250.106 Lightning Protection Systems. The lightning protection system ground terminals shall be bonded to the building or structure grounding electrode system. It would therefore seem that the suplemental ground could connect to that system as well, and in fact use the existing conductor. Any input would be welcome. Thanks, Drake At 09:19 PM 3/4/2009, you wrote: Hello Wrenches, Can the supplemental grounding electrode conductor be connected to a lightning protection system? We have a case where it would be difficult to run a GEC down a multi story building, but have a convenient copper wire, from a lightning protection system, that runs to a rod. Thank you, Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric OH License 44810 CO License 3773 740-448-7328 740-856-9648 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric OH License 44810 CO License 3773 740-448-7328 740-856-9648 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Lightning protection system
Hello Wrenches, Can the supplemental grounding electrode conductor be connected to a lightning protection system? We have a case where it would be difficult to run a GEC down a multi story building, but have a convenient copper wire, from a lightning protection system, that runs to a rod. Thank you, Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric OH License 44810 CO License 3773 740-448-7328 740-856-9648 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
