Re: [RE-wrenches] Load Management vs Multiple Inverters and OutBack Radian vs Flexware systems

[Lones Tuss]

Hello
Radian stacking and power save levels are in the Radian Programming Manual
 Starting page 36
http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Make_the_Power/radian_8048a_4048a/gs_8048a_4048a_operator.pdf
The GS8048A can be stacked with a GS4048A inverter for a 12Kw system.

Lones Tuss
Applications Engineer
OutBack Power Technologies
17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223
360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell
www.outbackpower.com<http://www.outbackpower.com/>

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of William Miller
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 11:18 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Load Management vs Multiple Inverters and OutBack 
Radian vs Flexware systems

Dave:

Here are the differences between the Outback Radian and FX inverters that I 
think are pertinent to your situation:


1.The Radian has generator support.  Don’t confuse this with generator 
start.  Gen support allows the inverter to sync to and aid the generator in 
providing power to loads.  The new FX inverter is the FXR and I am not sure it 
has this capability.  It is worth checking into.  Avoid an inverter without 
this function.

2.The Radian provides more power per hub-port than does the FX series.  The 
Radian can provide 8 kw per hub port while the FX maxes out at 3.6 kW per port. 
  This may not seem important but it can be.  If you have a Flexnet DC unit it 
occupies on port, therefore you are limited to 32 Kw (3.6 * 9 ports).  With 
Radian, you are allowed up to 72 Kw (8*9 ports).  And if you reach these 
maximums, there are no ports for charge controllers.  I wish Outback would put 
some resources into eliminating this bottleneck (and allow more than one Mate, 
please).

3.I am not fond of the X240 transformer system.  I have seen too many 
instances of tripped breakers.  The power save scheme is awkward when using FX 
inverters, and if you ask three Outback employees about setting this function 
you will get three answers.

4.Outback supposedly has a white paper on stacking more than two Radians, 
but I can’t seem to find it.  Lones, do you have access to this?

5.You are correct in looking at battery charging ratings.  With a big 
system comes big batteries.  You want to be able to charge them in an 
appropriate length of time.

I always hesitate to try and comingle equipment from too many different 
manufacturers.  Battery inverter systems are finicky enough as they are.  This 
may preclude load management.  Consider how you would implement this:  it would 
mean contactors, maybe an additional sub-panel, wiring, etc.  Sounds 
problematic to me.

Wiring a Radian system is different than wiring a Flexware system.  I find the 
Radian easier now that I have learned a few tricks:


1.Remove all AC breakers from the GSLC cabinets.  Instead use two outboard 
load centers: one for generator fed and one for inverter fed.  To provide 
bypass, run the generator power to the inverter fed panel and provide breaker 
interlocks.  For smaller systems use a factory provided interlock.  For larger 
systems, we custom build breaker interlocks.  Contact me off-line for more 
information.

2.Remove all of the PV breakers from the GSLC.  You can use a Midnite DIN 
rail or panel mount breaker cabinet or even an Outback combiner to mount din 
rail mount your PV and charge controller breakers.

I hope this helps.

William Miller


[Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com<http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600



On Dec 15, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Dave Palumbo 
<palumbo1...@gmail.com<mailto:palumbo1...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Wrenchers,

I am involved in designing an off grid system that will need  multiple 
inverters (probably OutBack). My experience over the years has been limited to 
no more than 8kW's of inverter on a big system (for me). The load profile is 
not completed yet, but it is looking like this may require more power if all of 
the loads were to be on/surge at the same time. The client wants things to run 
as seamlessly as practical and has the means to pay for a nice system.
• Are automatic load management devices worth looking into? I have no 
experience with them except for one of my off griders (early adopter type) had 
one put in about 15 years ago on his system and I think it worked OK but it 
seemed like a lot of money and work to install and it takes up some space. More 
technical stuff to deal with.
• How fool proof is it and is it worth messing with? Vs. adding more 
inverter wattage?

• With OutBack these days what are the Pros and Cons comparing a Radian 
system vs a Flexware 1000 system?
• Why does the Radian line have different ratings per unit of a 48VDC 
inverter? Isn't the Radian two vented 48V inverters in a big box?
• The regular OB VFXR3648's  have lower continuous power and surge 
ratings and lower battery charging amps when compared to a Radian. Two

Re: [RE-wrenches] Load Management vs Multiple Inverters and OutBack Radian vs Flexware systems

[William Miller]

Dave:



The official answer is that, no, you cannot upgrade a 4 kW to an 8 kW.
There was a hint that there was a non-supported way to do this, but I would
not want to attempt this until after the unit was out of warranty.



William





[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Dave Palumbo
*Sent:* Thursday, December 15, 2016 3:45 PM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches' <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Load Management vs Multiple Inverters and
OutBack Radian vs Flexware systems



Very helpful William! Thank you. I will work with the client to get the
load profile to a point where one 8kW Radian will meet all the household
needs, but it is more likely that 2 Radians will be needed.

Is it possible/practical to parallel a Radian GS8048 with a GS4048? If so,
can the GS4048 be upgraded to 8k in the future?



I will  reach out to you, off wrench list, for more info on your Radian
 GSLC cabinet methods.



Dave Palumbo



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
<re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of *William Miller
*Sent:* Thursday, December 15, 2016 2:18 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Load Management vs Multiple Inverters and
OutBack Radian vs Flexware systems



Dave:



Here are the differences between the Outback Radian and FX inverters that I
think are pertinent to your situation:



1.The Radian has generator support.  Don’t confuse this with generator
start.  Gen support allows the inverter to sync to and aid the generator in
providing power to loads.  The new FX inverter is the FXR and I am not sure
it has this capability.  It is worth checking into.  Avoid an inverter
without this function.

2.The Radian provides more power per hub-port than does the FX series.
The Radian can provide 8 kw per hub port while the FX maxes out at 3.6 kW
per port.   This may not seem important but it can be.  If you have a
Flexnet DC unit it occupies on port, therefore you are limited to 32 Kw
(3.6 * 9 ports).  With Radian, you are allowed up to 72 Kw (8*9 ports).
And if you reach these maximums, there are no ports for charge
controllers.  I wish Outback would put some resources into eliminating this
bottleneck (and allow more than one Mate, please).

3.I am not fond of the X240 transformer system.  I have seen too many
instances of tripped breakers.  The power save scheme is awkward when using
FX inverters, and if you ask three Outback employees about setting this
function you will get three answers.

4.Outback supposedly has a white paper on stacking more than two
Radians, but I can’t seem to find it.  Lones, do you have access to this?

5.You are correct in looking at battery charging ratings.  With a big
system comes big batteries.  You want to be able to charge them in an
appropriate length of time.



I always hesitate to try and comingle equipment from too many different
manufacturers.  Battery inverter systems are finicky enough as they are.
This may preclude load management.  Consider how you would implement this:
it would mean contactors, maybe an additional sub-panel, wiring, etc.
Sounds problematic to me.



Wiring a Radian system is different than wiring a Flexware system.  I find
the Radian easier now that I have learned a few tricks:



1.Remove all AC breakers from the GSLC cabinets.  Instead use two
outboard load centers: one for generator fed and one for inverter fed.  To
provide bypass, run the generator power to the inverter fed panel and
provide breaker interlocks.  For smaller systems use a factory provided
interlock.  For larger systems, we custom build breaker interlocks.
Contact me off-line for more information.

2.Remove all of the PV breakers from the GSLC.  You can use a Midnite
DIN rail or panel mount breaker cabinet or even an Outback combiner to
mount din rail mount your PV and charge controller breakers.



I hope this helps.



William Miller





[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600







On Dec 15, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Dave Palumbo <palumbo1...@gmail.com> wrote:



Wrenchers,



I am involved in designing an off grid system that will need  multiple
inverters (probably OutBack). My experience over the years has been limited
to no more than 8kW's of inverter on a big system (for me). The load
profile is not completed yet, but it is looking like this may require more
power if all of the loads were to be on/surge at the same time. The client
wants things to run as seamlessly as practical and has the means to pay for
a nice system.

· Are automatic load management devices worth looking into? I have
no experience with them except for one of my off griders (early adopter
type) had one put in about 15 years ago on his system and I think it work

Re: [RE-wrenches] Load Management vs Multiple Inverters and OutBack Radian vs Flexware systems

[Dave Palumbo]

Very helpful William! Thank you. I will work with the client to get the load 
profile to a point where one 8kW Radian will meet all the household needs, but 
it is more likely that 2 Radians will be needed.

Is it possible/practical to parallel a Radian GS8048 with a GS4048? If so, can 
the GS4048 be upgraded to 8k in the future?

 

I will  reach out to you, off wrench list, for more info on your Radian  GSLC 
cabinet methods.

 

Dave Palumbo

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of William Miller
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 2:18 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Load Management vs Multiple Inverters and OutBack 
Radian vs Flexware systems

 

Dave:

 

Here are the differences between the Outback Radian and FX inverters that I 
think are pertinent to your situation:

 

1.The Radian has generator support.  Don’t confuse this with generator 
start.  Gen support allows the inverter to sync to and aid the generator in 
providing power to loads.  The new FX inverter is the FXR and I am not sure it 
has this capability.  It is worth checking into.  Avoid an inverter without 
this function.

2.The Radian provides more power per hub-port than does the FX series.  The 
Radian can provide 8 kw per hub port while the FX maxes out at 3.6 kW per port. 
  This may not seem important but it can be.  If you have a Flexnet DC unit it 
occupies on port, therefore you are limited to 32 Kw (3.6 * 9 ports).  With 
Radian, you are allowed up to 72 Kw (8*9 ports).  And if you reach these 
maximums, there are no ports for charge controllers.  I wish Outback would put 
some resources into eliminating this bottleneck (and allow more than one Mate, 
please).

3.I am not fond of the X240 transformer system.  I have seen too many 
instances of tripped breakers.  The power save scheme is awkward when using FX 
inverters, and if you ask three Outback employees about setting this function 
you will get three answers.

4.Outback supposedly has a white paper on stacking more than two Radians, 
but I can’t seem to find it.  Lones, do you have access to this?

5.You are correct in looking at battery charging ratings.  With a big 
system comes big batteries.  You want to be able to charge them in an 
appropriate length of time.

 

I always hesitate to try and comingle equipment from too many different 
manufacturers.  Battery inverter systems are finicky enough as they are.  This 
may preclude load management.  Consider how you would implement this:  it would 
mean contactors, maybe an additional sub-panel, wiring, etc.  Sounds 
problematic to me.

 

Wiring a Radian system is different than wiring a Flexware system.  I find the 
Radian easier now that I have learned a few tricks:

 

1.Remove all AC breakers from the GSLC cabinets.  Instead use two outboard 
load centers: one for generator fed and one for inverter fed.  To provide 
bypass, run the generator power to the inverter fed panel and provide breaker 
interlocks.  For smaller systems use a factory provided interlock.  For larger 
systems, we custom build breaker interlocks.  Contact me off-line for more 
information.

2.Remove all of the PV breakers from the GSLC.  You can use a Midnite DIN 
rail or panel mount breaker cabinet or even an Outback combiner to mount din 
rail mount your PV and charge controller breakers.

 

I hope this helps.

 

William Miller

 

 

Gradient Cap_mini
Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/> 
805-438-5600

 

 

 

On Dec 15, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Dave Palumbo <palumbo1...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Wrenchers,

 

I am involved in designing an off grid system that will need  multiple 
inverters (probably OutBack). My experience over the years has been limited to 
no more than 8kW's of inverter on a big system (for me). The load profile is 
not completed yet, but it is looking like this may require more power if all of 
the loads were to be on/surge at the same time. The client wants things to run 
as seamlessly as practical and has the means to pay for a nice system. 

· Are automatic load management devices worth looking into? I have no 
experience with them except for one of my off griders (early adopter type) had 
one put in about 15 years ago on his system and I think it worked OK but it 
seemed like a lot of money and work to install and it takes up some space. More 
technical stuff to deal with. 

· How fool proof is it and is it worth messing with? Vs. adding more 
inverter wattage?

 

· With OutBack these days what are the Pros and Cons comparing a Radian 
system vs a Flexware 1000 system? 

· Why does the Radian line have different ratings per unit of a 48VDC 
inverter? Isn't the Radian two vented 48V inverters in a big box? 

· The regular OB VFXR3648's  have lower continuous power and surge 
ratings and lower battery charging amps when compared to a Radian. Two OB 
VFR3648's @ 7,200V

Re: [RE-wrenches] Load Management vs Multiple Inverters and OutBack Radian vs Flexware systems

[William Miller]

Dave:



Here are the differences between the Outback Radian and FX inverters that I
think are pertinent to your situation:



1.The Radian has generator support.  Don’t confuse this with generator
start.  Gen support allows the inverter to sync to and aid the generator in
providing power to loads.  The new FX inverter is the FXR and I am not sure
it has this capability.  It is worth checking into.  Avoid an inverter
without this function.

2.The Radian provides more power per hub-port than does the FX series.
The Radian can provide 8 kw per hub port while the FX maxes out at 3.6 kW
per port.   This may not seem important but it can be.  If you have a
Flexnet DC unit it occupies on port, therefore you are limited to 32 Kw
(3.6 * 9 ports).  With Radian, you are allowed up to 72 Kw (8*9 ports).
And if you reach these maximums, there are no ports for charge
controllers.  I wish Outback would put some resources into eliminating this
bottleneck (and allow more than one Mate, please).

3.I am not fond of the X240 transformer system.  I have seen too many
instances of tripped breakers.  The power save scheme is awkward when using
FX inverters, and if you ask three Outback employees about setting this
function you will get three answers.

4.Outback supposedly has a white paper on stacking more than two
Radians, but I can’t seem to find it.  Lones, do you have access to this?

5.You are correct in looking at battery charging ratings.  With a big
system comes big batteries.  You want to be able to charge them in an
appropriate length of time.



I always hesitate to try and comingle equipment from too many different
manufacturers.  Battery inverter systems are finicky enough as they are.
This may preclude load management.  Consider how you would implement this:
it would mean contactors, maybe an additional sub-panel, wiring, etc.
Sounds problematic to me.



Wiring a Radian system is different than wiring a Flexware system.  I find
the Radian easier now that I have learned a few tricks:



1.Remove all AC breakers from the GSLC cabinets.  Instead use two
outboard load centers: one for generator fed and one for inverter fed.  To
provide bypass, run the generator power to the inverter fed panel and
provide breaker interlocks.  For smaller systems use a factory provided
interlock.  For larger systems, we custom build breaker interlocks.
Contact me off-line for more information.

2.Remove all of the PV breakers from the GSLC.  You can use a Midnite
DIN rail or panel mount breaker cabinet or even an Outback combiner to
mount din rail mount your PV and charge controller breakers.



I hope this helps.



William Miller





[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com 
805-438-5600







On Dec 15, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Dave Palumbo  wrote:



Wrenchers,



I am involved in designing an off grid system that will need  multiple
inverters (probably OutBack). My experience over the years has been limited
to no more than 8kW's of inverter on a big system (for me). The load
profile is not completed yet, but it is looking like this may require more
power if all of the loads were to be on/surge at the same time. The client
wants things to run as seamlessly as practical and has the means to pay for
a nice system.

· Are automatic load management devices worth looking into? I have
no experience with them except for one of my off griders (early adopter
type) had one put in about 15 years ago on his system and I think it worked
OK but it seemed like a lot of money and work to install and it takes up
some space. More technical stuff to deal with.

· How fool proof is it and is it worth messing with? Vs. adding
more inverter wattage?



· With OutBack these days what are the Pros and Cons comparing a
Radian system vs a Flexware 1000 system?

· Why does the Radian line have different ratings per unit of a
48VDC inverter? Isn't the Radian two vented 48V inverters in a big box?

· The regular OB VFXR3648's  have lower continuous power and surge
ratings and lower battery charging amps when compared to a Radian. Two OB
VFR3648's @ 7,200VA continuous vs Radian @ 8,000VA; 10.8kVA surge on the 2
VFX's together vs 12kVA on the Radian; also 90ADC vs 115ADC battery
charging respectively.



Thanks for your time,

Dave



David Palumbo

Independent Power LLC

462 Solar Way Drive

Hyde Park, VT 05655

802-371-8678 cell

802-888-4917 home
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Load Management vs Multiple Inverters and OutBack Radian vs Flexware systems

[Dave Palumbo]

Wrenchers,

 

I am involved in designing an off grid system that will need  multiple
inverters (probably OutBack). My experience over the years has been limited
to no more than 8kW's of inverter on a big system (for me). The load profile
is not completed yet, but it is looking like this may require more power if
all of the loads were to be on/surge at the same time. The client wants
things to run as seamlessly as practical and has the means to pay for a nice
system. 

. Are automatic load management devices worth looking into? I have
no experience with them except for one of my off griders (early adopter
type) had one put in about 15 years ago on his system and I think it worked
OK but it seemed like a lot of money and work to install and it takes up
some space. More technical stuff to deal with. 

. How fool proof is it and is it worth messing with? Vs. adding more
inverter wattage?

 

. With OutBack these days what are the Pros and Cons comparing a
Radian system vs a Flexware 1000 system? 

. Why does the Radian line have different ratings per unit of a
48VDC inverter? Isn't the Radian two vented 48V inverters in a big box? 

. The regular OB VFXR3648's  have lower continuous power and surge
ratings and lower battery charging amps when compared to a Radian. Two OB
VFR3648's @ 7,200VA continuous vs Radian @ 8,000VA; 10.8kVA surge on the 2
VFX's together vs 12kVA on the Radian; also 90ADC vs 115ADC battery charging
respectively. 

 

Thanks for your time,

Dave

 

David Palumbo 

Independent Power LLC

462 Solar Way Drive

Hyde Park, VT 05655

802-371-8678 cell

802-888-4917 home

 

 

 

 

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