Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
Seems that I remember that the APC and other backups are not a sine wave but a modified wave? But it's been a while. Bob On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Howie Michaelson ho...@suncatchervt.comwrote: I installed an off-grid system with identical symptoms: OB VFX 3648 dual stack Buderus GB142-24 Kohler 12 kW propane genny The boiler runs fine on the inverter power, but will occasionally error out (6A) and shut down while the generator is running (usually after it has been on for hours). The plumber installed an APC uninterruptable power supply/surge suppressor (not sure of the model) before the boiler, but when running on the internal inverter, the symptoms seemed to get worse. When running on just the surge suppressor portion, the symptoms were the same as if the APC wasn't in-line. We've checked the grounding at the genny, made sure the neutral was isolated except for the main panel, still the same problem. Seems this is a Buderus issue (or at least not an inverter one) - see: http://www.buderus.net/Support/TechnicalInfoForums/tabid/132/forumid/15/threadid/4334/scope/posts/Default.aspx I haven't been able to make the boiler run reliably when the genny is on, which is a problem in our climate, when the client goes away in the winter... Howie -- Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Wind Incentive Program Partner http://www.SunCatcherVT.com http://www.suncatchervt.com/ (cell) 802-272-0004 (home) 802-439-6096 On Wed, February 11, 2009 7:47 am, Darryl Thayer wrote: Some of the hot surface ignitors I have seen draw a lot of current, in the order of amps. I would expect the inverter to drop out if it were overloaded however. Also does the magnum drop voltage at very low loads? Where the furnace controls can not function due to low voltage or poor wave shape. Darryl This may be true about high frequency switching interfering with something, but I believe the problem with this ignitor is that it is a very poor design. Judging by what I read on their company forum, it doesn't look like they have a clue about this problem. Maybe you can go inside the Buderus and filter something there or maybe you can fine another product to try ? boB ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
Some of the hot surface ignitors I have seen draw a lot of current, in the order of amps. I would expect the inverter to drop out if it were overloaded however. Also does the magnum drop voltage at very low loads? Where the furnace controls can not function due to low voltage or poor wave shape. Darryl --- On Wed, 2/11/09, boB Gudgel b...@midnitesolar.com wrote: From: boB Gudgel b...@midnitesolar.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 12:03 AM Peter Parrish wrote: As an old Ham Radio Operator, it would seem the solution is very simple. First, I assume that the voltage is compliant and so is the frequency. The problem is high frequency noise (hash from the switching circuitry) on the waveform that has not been filtered out. Figure out the switching frequency and get a low-pass filter whose cutoff is below the switching frequency but above 60 Hz. Make sure the filter is rated for the load, but since we’re taking about a burner control/igniter, we’re talking low-power, correct? LPFs are low-cost commodity items, probably in DigiKey or similar catalogs. - Peter This may be true about high frequency switching interfering with something, but I believe the problem with this ignitor is that it is a very poor design. Judging by what I read on their company forum, it doesn't look like they have a clue about this problem. Maybe you can go inside the Buderus and filter something there or maybe you can fine another product to try ? boB Peter T. Parrish, President California Solar Engineering, Inc. 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065 Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885 CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26 peter.parr...@calsolareng.com *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *David Katz *Sent:* Monday, February 09, 2009 9:31 PM *To:* al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question Hi Allan, This is not an unusual problem. i have seen it with conventional forced air heating systems. The burner controls would not run on A Xantrex or Outback sine wave inverter. There is something about waveforms from inverters designed by Trace legacy engineers. I had to put in Exeltech or Studer inverters to operate the heating control system. you can do this and still run larger pumps and fans on the Magnum. David David Katz President AEE Solar 1155 Redway Drive P.O. Box 339 Redway, CA 95560 Tel (707) 825-1200 Fax (707) 825-1202 da...@aeesolar.com mailto:da...@aeesolar.com www.aeesolar.com http://www.aeesolar.com DISCLAIMER: This communication, along with any documents, files or attachments, is intended for the use of only the addressee and contains privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of any information contained in or attached to this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail reply and destroy the original communication and its attachments without reading, printing or saving in any manner. P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. Allan Sindelar wrote: Wrenches, We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has had this or a related problem, and what to do about it. This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional: 1,800W PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16 S-460s, installed summer 2008. This existing home is being extensively remodeled, and the home is not yet occupied. A local mechanical contractor installed a new infloor radiant (gypcrete) hydronic heating system using a Netherlands-made (German company) Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The problem is that the boiler won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears that the hot-surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on straight 120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry). We tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into inverter AC and it lit right up. The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142 boiler with the same result. I was told that they brought out a generator and it also failed to ignite on generator AC, but not knowing the generator used or the way it was wired (I believe an extension cord to a portable) I don't put much weight on this data. They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to test the theory that a different
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
I dont' know if you can power just the part this is giving problems and not the big load which is pumping? but had a similar problem with an SW trace. I installed a Exeltech inverter to power that load specifically and ever since has worked fine. The guys at Exeltech make a wave form that everything likes. Just a thought, jay peltz power On Feb 11, 2009, at 6:52 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: I installed an off-grid system with identical symptoms: OB VFX 3648 dual stack Buderus GB142-24 Kohler 12 kW propane genny The boiler runs fine on the inverter power, but will occasionally error out (6A) and shut down while the generator is running (usually after it has been on for hours). The plumber installed an APC uninterruptable power supply/surge suppressor (not sure of the model) before the boiler, but when running on the internal inverter, the symptoms seemed to get worse. When running on just the surge suppressor portion, the symptoms were the same as if the APC wasn't in-line. We've checked the grounding at the genny, made sure the neutral was isolated except for the main panel, still the same problem. Seems this is a Buderus issue (or at least not an inverter one) - see: http://www.buderus.net/Support/TechnicalInfoForums/tabid/132/forumid/15/threadid/4334/scope/posts/Default.aspx I haven't been able to make the boiler run reliably when the genny is on, which is a problem in our climate, when the client goes away in the winter... Howie -- Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Wind Incentive Program Partner http://www.SunCatcherVT.com (cell) 802-272-0004 (home) 802-439-6096 On Wed, February 11, 2009 7:47 am, Darryl Thayer wrote: Some of the hot surface ignitors I have seen draw a lot of current, in the order of amps. I would expect the inverter to drop out if it were overloaded however. Also does the magnum drop voltage at very low loads? Where the furnace controls can not function due to low voltage or poor wave shape. Darryl This may be true about high frequency switching interfering with something, but I believe the problem with this ignitor is that it is a very poor design. Judging by what I read on their company forum, it doesn't look like they have a clue about this problem. Maybe you can go inside the Buderus and filter something there or maybe you can fine another product to try ? boB ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
A few years back, we had a customer who was having similar problems. I don't recall if it was a Buderus boiler, but the generator was a Generac. This was a simple generator backup system. We were able to get the boiler to work reliably after adjusting the governor on the generator so that it ran at 60Hz under load. As I recall, it would then drift above 60Hz when unloaded. If you were to try a UPS, it would need to be a dual-conversion type to make a difference, otherwise it would just pass the generator power straight through. True dual-conversion UPS units are very expensive... Probably costing more than the cheap generator in many cases. -Hans -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 6:52 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question I installed an off-grid system with identical symptoms: OB VFX 3648 dual stack Buderus GB142-24 Kohler 12 kW propane genny The boiler runs fine on the inverter power, but will occasionally error out (6A) and shut down while the generator is running (usually after it has been on for hours). The plumber installed an APC uninterruptable power supply/surge suppressor (not sure of the model) before the boiler, but when running on the internal inverter, the symptoms seemed to get worse. When running on just the surge suppressor portion, the symptoms were the same as if the APC wasn't in-line. We've checked the grounding at the genny, made sure the neutral was isolated except for the main panel, still the same problem. Seems this is a Buderus issue (or at least not an inverter one) - see: http://www.buderus.net/Support/TechnicalInfoForums/tabid/132/forumid/15/thre adid/4334/scope/posts/Default.aspx I haven't been able to make the boiler run reliably when the genny is on, which is a problem in our climate, when the client goes away in the winter... Howie -- Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerT Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Wind Incentive Program Partner http://www.SunCatcherVT.com (cell) 802-272-0004 (home) 802-439-6096 On Wed, February 11, 2009 7:47 am, Darryl Thayer wrote: Some of the hot surface ignitors I have seen draw a lot of current, in the order of amps. I would expect the inverter to drop out if it were overloaded however. Also does the magnum drop voltage at very low loads? Where the furnace controls can not function due to low voltage or poor wave shape. Darryl This may be true about high frequency switching interfering with something, but I believe the problem with this ignitor is that it is a very poor design. Judging by what I read on their company forum, it doesn't look like they have a clue about this problem. Maybe you can go inside the Buderus and filter something there or maybe you can fine another product to try ? boB ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
Wrenches, Thank you to you Wrenches who have responded. Keep them coming; I'm collating all as part of our customer support on this. We have several ideas to try out. Darryl, it's not excessive draw. I had a Kill-a-Watt on the AC input during on-site testing. I saw a momentary peak of 360W (for all, including AC pumps). The observed draw sequence was 205W for the purge blower, followed by 270 for the igniter for about 5 seconds, dropping to 220-230W upon ignition. Later, the hydronic distributor's rep turned down the sidearm circulator pump from high to low setting and reduced this pump draw by about 45-50 watts. AC voltage during testing bounced around in the range of 117-123VAC, but the fluctuation was not load-based. At this point Magnum has stepped up to support us; we'll see where this goes and how it (hopefully) resolves. Magnum has suggested a 50 microfarad capacitor, per Peter's suggestion. They have also contacted the wholesale distributor for Buderus boilers for New Mexico, and I believe the plan is to ship the boiler to Magnum for testing. I may have further questions for the list, and I'll eventually post how all this resolves. Allan at Positive Energy -Original Message- From: re-wrenches- On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer Some of the hot surface ignitors I have seen draw a lot of current, in the order of amps. I would expect the inverter to drop out if it were overloaded however. Also does the magnum drop voltage at very low loads? Where the furnace controls can not function due to low voltage or poor wave shape. Darryl --- On Wed, 2/11/09, boB Gudgel b...@midnitesolar.com wrote: Peter Parrish wrote: As an old Ham Radio Operator, it would seem the solution is very simple. First, I assume that the voltage is compliant and so is the frequency. The problem is high frequency noise (hash from the switching circuitry) on the waveform that has not been filtered out. Figure out the switching frequency and get a low-pass filter whose cutoff is below the switching frequency but above 60 Hz. Make sure the filter is rated for the load, but since we're taking about a burner control/igniter, we're talking low-power, correct? LPFs are low-cost commodity items, probably in DigiKey or similar catalogs. - Peter This may be true about high frequency switching interfering with something, but I believe the problem with this ignitor is that it is a very poor design. Judging by what I read on their company forum, it doesn't look like they have a clue about this problem. Maybe you can go inside the Buderus and filter something there or maybe you can fine another product to try ? boB *From:* *David Katz Hi Allan, This is not an unusual problem. i have seen it with conventional forced air heating systems. The burner controls would not run on A Xantrex or Outback sine wave inverter. There is something about waveforms from inverters designed by Trace legacy engineers. I had to put in Exeltech or Studer inverters to operate the heating control system. you can do this and still run larger pumps and fans on the Magnum. David ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
David Katz wrote: Hi Allan, This is not an unusual problem. i have seen it with conventional forced air heating systems. The burner controls would not run on A Xantrex or Outback sine wave inverter. There is something about waveforms from inverters designed by Trace legacy engineers. I had to put in Exeltech or Studer inverters to operate the heating control system. you can do this and still run larger pumps and fans on the Magnum. David Try this: Add a semi-large load to that inverter and then see if the ignitor works in addition to that load. A lot of times, a SineWave inverter will clean up its waveform some when loaded due to inductances... Yes, even inverters designed by X Trace Engineering and/or Xandroid engineers. BTW, I checked that company's forum and this same basic question showed up, except it was a generator that had problems. They couldn't answer it either, except to say that separating (or connecting together?) the Neutral and Ground wires might fix it for some reason. Must be something I'm missing there, but I've seen stranger things I suppose. boB ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
Wrenches, We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has had this or a related problem, and what to do about it. This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional: 1,800W PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16 S-460s, installed summer 2008. This existing home is being extensively remodeled, and the home is not yet occupied. A local mechanical contractor installed a new infloor radiant (gypcrete) hydronic heating system using a Netherlands-made (German company) Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The problem is that the boiler won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears that the hot-surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on straight 120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry). We tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into inverter AC and it lit right up. The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142 boiler with the same result. I was told that they brought out a generator and it also failed to ignite on generator AC, but not knowing the generator used or the way it was wired (I believe an extension cord to a portable) I don't put much weight on this data. They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to test the theory that a different manufacturer's boiler might work. The Lochinvar boiler, which uses a different control and a spark ignition rather than a hot surface igniter, worked on site without any problems. I'm looking for solutions. Magnum tech support had not heard of this. Have you? Also, if indeed we have an inverter that is incapable of running this load, how do we make it right to the homeowner and the mechanical contractor? What should be Magnum's obligation? What should be ours? This issue hasn't come up here since the days when the Trace SW mod-sine series was the waveform standard. Thanks, Allan Sindelar allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP certified solar PV installer Positive Energy, Inc. 3225A Richards Lane Santa Fe NM 87507 505 424-1112 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
I have hit this one a couple of times but not with the equipment you are listing. It turned out to be how the sine wave crossed the X axis and the controls did not like the wave form. Thanks - Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc www.solarwork.com E - d...@solarwork.com V - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 I'd put my money on solar energy. I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and coal run out before we tackle that. -Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March 1931 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 11:16 AM To: RE Wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question Wrenches, We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has had this or a related problem, and what to do about it. This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional: 1,800W PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16 S-460s, installed summer 2008. This existing home is being extensively remodeled, and the home is not yet occupied. A local mechanical contractor installed a new infloor radiant (gypcrete) hydronic heating system using a Netherlands-made (German company) Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The problem is that the boiler won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears that the hot-surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on straight 120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry). We tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into inverter AC and it lit right up. The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142 boiler with the same result. I was told that they brought out a generator and it also failed to ignite on generator AC, but not knowing the generator used or the way it was wired (I believe an extension cord to a portable) I don't put much weight on this data. They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to test the theory that a different manufacturer's boiler might work. The Lochinvar boiler, which uses a different control and a spark ignition rather than a hot surface igniter, worked on site without any problems. I'm looking for solutions. Magnum tech support had not heard of this. Have you? Also, if indeed we have an inverter that is incapable of running this load, how do we make it right to the homeowner and the mechanical contractor? What should be Magnum's obligation? What should be ours? This issue hasn't come up here since the days when the Trace SW mod-sine series was the waveform standard. Thanks, Allan Sindelar mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP certified solar PV installer Positive Energy, Inc. 3225A Richards Lane Santa Fe NM 87507 505 424-1112 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
I second Dana's response. I have observed that the MS4448 waveform quality degenerates quite rapidly with imbalanced loading of one or the other of the 120 volt output legs. I can't give a quantitative (% distortion/amps) number to it, but I would classify it as severe. I first noticed it when doing some test measurements in the shop, and found large discrepancies between various current metering devices I was using, as some of the meters were not measuring RMS, and the distortion was throwing them way off. And when using 120 volt motors, even though their surge may be well within specified load limits, count on things not going well. I'm generally satisfied with the Magnum MS4448, but this is one the two key shortcomings that I see with the product. The other is the idle power draw when not in search. John Raynes RE Solar Torrey, UT At 11:16 AM 2/9/2009, you wrote: Wrenches, We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has had this or a related problem, and what to do about it. This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional: 1,800W PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16 S-460s, installed summer 2008. This existing home is being extensively remodeled, and the home is not yet occupied. A local mechanical contractor installed a new infloor radiant (gypcrete) hydronic heating system using a Netherlands-made (German company) Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The problem is that the boiler won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears that the hot-surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on straight 120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry). We tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into inverter AC and it lit right up. The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142 boiler with the same result. I was told that they brought out a generator and it also failed to ignite on generator AC, but not knowing the generator used or the way it was wired (I believe an extension cord to a portable) I don't put much weight on this data. They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to test the theory that a different manufacturer's boiler might work. The Lochinvar boiler, which uses a different control and a spark ignition rather than a hot surface igniter, worked on site without any problems. I'm looking for solutions. Magnum tech support had not heard of this. Have you? Also, if indeed we have an inverter that is incapable of running this load, how do we make it right to the homeowner and the mechanical contractor? What should be Magnum's obligation? What should be ours? This issue hasn't come up here since the days when the Trace SW mod-sine series was the waveform standard. Thanks, Allan Sindelar mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.comallan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP certified solar PV installer Positive Energy, Inc. 3225A Richards Lane Santa Fe NM 87507 505 424-1112 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
I wonder if a work around might be to run the igniter off a relay activated by the original board and fed by the inverter direct? I have seen things not start when the charger was drawing off the generator, not Magnums but old Hearts. Bob On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: Wrenches, We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has had this or a related problem, and what to do about it. This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional: 1,800W PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16 S-460s, installed summer 2008. This existing home is being extensively remodeled, and the home is not yet occupied. A local mechanical contractor installed a new infloor radiant (gypcrete) hydronic heating system using a Netherlands-made (German company) Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The problem is that the boiler won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears that the hot-surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on straight 120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry). We tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into inverter AC and it lit right up. The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142 boiler with the same result. I was told that they brought out a generator and it also failed to ignite on generator AC, but not knowing the generator used or the way it was wired (I believe an extension cord to a portable) I don't put much weight on this data. They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to test the theory that a different manufacturer's boiler might work. The Lochinvar boiler, which uses a different control and a spark ignition rather than a hot surface igniter, worked on site without any problems. I'm looking for solutions. Magnum tech support had not heard of this. Have you? Also, if indeed we have an inverter that is incapable of running this load, how do we make it right to the homeowner and the mechanical contractor? What should be Magnum's obligation? What should be ours? This issue hasn't come up here since the days when the Trace SW mod-sine series was the waveform standard. Thanks, Allan Sindelar ***allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com* al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP certified solar PV installer Positive Energy, Inc. 3225A Richards Lane Santa Fe NM 87507 505 424-1112 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
Have you tried a different SW inverter at the site? There is a difference between brands. Also, have you tried a clean wave form gennie like the Honda inverter series. Finally I don't think that most manufacturers will guarantee that their wave form will power a specific load. Regards, Ezra Auerbach On 9-Feb-09, at 4:18 PM, robert ellison reelli...@gmail.com wrote: I wonder if a work around might be to run the igniter off a relay activated by the original board and fed by the inverter direct? I have seen things not start when the charger was drawing off the generator, not Magnums but old Hearts. Bob On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: Wrenches, We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has had this or a related problem, and what to do about it. This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional: 1,800W PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16 S-460s, installed summer 2008. This existing home is being extensively remodeled, and the home is not yet occupied. A local mechanical contractor installed a new infloor radiant (gypcrete) hydronic heating system using a Netherlands-made (German company) Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The problem is that the boiler won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears that the hot- surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on straight 120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry). We tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into inverter AC and it lit right up. The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142 boiler with the same result. I was told that they brought out a generator and it also failed to ignite on generator AC, but not knowing the generator used or the way it was wired (I believe an extension cord to a portable) I don't put much weight on this data. They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to test the theory that a different manufacturer's boiler might work. The Lochinvar boiler, which uses a different control and a spark ignition rather than a hot surface igniter, worked on site without any problems. I'm looking for solutions. Magnum tech support had not heard of this. Have you? Also, if indeed we have an inverter that is incapable of running this load, how do we make it right to the homeowner and the mechanical contractor? What should be Magnum's obligation? What should be ours? This issue hasn't come up here since the days when the Trace SW mod-sine series was the waveform standard. Thanks, Allan Sindelar allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP certified solar PV installer Positive Energy, Inc. 3225A Richards Lane Santa Fe NM 87507 505 424-1112 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
Hi Allan, This is not an unusual problem. i have seen it with conventional forced air heating systems. The burner controls would not run on A Xantrex or Outback sine wave inverter. There is something about waveforms from inverters designed by Trace legacy engineers. I had to put in Exeltech or Studer inverters to operate the heating control system. you can do this and still run larger pumps and fans on the Magnum. David David Katz President AEE Solar 1155 Redway Drive P.O. Box 339 Redway, CA 95560 Tel (707) 825-1200 Fax (707) 825-1202 da...@aeesolar.com mailto:da...@aeesolar.com www.aeesolar.com http://www.aeesolar.com DISCLAIMER: This communication, along with any documents, files or attachments, is intended for the use of only the addressee and contains privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of any information contained in or attached to this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail reply and destroy the original communication and its attachments without reading, printing or saving in any manner. P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. Allan Sindelar wrote: Wrenches, We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has had this or a related problem, and what to do about it. This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional: 1,800W PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16 S-460s, installed summer 2008. This existing home is being extensively remodeled, and the home is not yet occupied. A local mechanical contractor installed a new infloor radiant (gypcrete) hydronic heating system using a Netherlands-made (German company) Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The problem is that the boiler won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears that the hot-surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on straight 120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry). We tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into inverter AC and it lit right up. The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142 boiler with the same result. I was told that they brought out a generator and it also failed to ignite on generator AC, but not knowing the generator used or the way it was wired (I believe an extension cord to a portable) I don't put much weight on this data. They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to test the theory that a different manufacturer's boiler might work. The Lochinvar boiler, which uses a different control and a spark ignition rather than a hot surface igniter, worked on site without any problems. I'm looking for solutions. Magnum tech support had not heard of this. Have you? Also, if indeed we have an inverter that is incapable of running this load, how do we make it right to the homeowner and the mechanical contractor? What should be Magnum's obligation? What should be ours? This issue hasn't come up here since the days when the Trace SW mod-sine series was the waveform standard. Thanks, Allan Sindelar allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP certified solar PV installer Positive Energy, Inc. 3225A Richards Lane Santa Fe NM 87507 505 424-1112 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
