Lars Ortegren
Director of Operations California Solar Electric Company 10141 Evening Star Drive, Suite 6 Grass Valley, CA 95945 Phone : (530)274-3671 Fax: (530)274-7518 -----Original Message----- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 9:48 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 4, Issue 41 Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org You can reach the person managing the list at re-wrenches-ow...@lists.re-wrenches.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. Today's Topics: 1. Re: Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods (Keith Cronin) 2. Re: Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods (Keith Cronin) 3. Re: Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods (Joel Davidson) 4. Off grid Trace 2024 off grid w/ Sunny Boy new Installation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 11:04:29 -0800 (PST) From: Keith Cronin <electrich...@yahoo.com> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Message-ID: <477749.14898...@web113420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ray Good points. Clarification: I wasn't suggesting any of us become responsible for every electrical issues on the property, but that we offer a home electrical inspection to point out the deficiencies. The client can decide whether or not to do the work that we've discovered needs upgrading. At the very least, they are informed. In a competitive solar environment, it allows you to be the different integrator- one that is showing the full menu of services and focuses on safety and prudence. Its like when you bring your service van in to the dealership. They do the basic items, then throw it on the computer and tell you, you need "X" work done. Or as they're doing the visual inspection, they notice "X" needs to be replaced. We the customer, at that juncture, are informed and can decide whether or not we'd like to proceed. But at least we know and its been brought to our attention. So, yes- if you want to draw a clear line, you can. One proposal for the PV and one for the remediation work. At least they have choices and information that perhaps they weren't aware of before. By taking some digital pics of the overloaded jbox, for example, they now have visual cues as to make decisions about their homes electrical infrastructure. If someone is investing thousands of dollars in a PV system, doing some remedial work seems prudent. Sometimes homeowners haven't had an electrician in their homes for years and aren't even aware they have a hazard lurking in the shadows. You never know, you might or could get a whole house rewire out of the PV job! ________________________________ From: R Ray Walters <r...@solarray.com> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Sent: Sun, January 30, 2011 8:48:06 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Keith; I try to catch some of those issues on our installs, but the problem is that you then become responsible for every electrical issue on the property. If the wiring that you saw looked that bad, Keith, imagine what might be hidden in the wall? Sometimes its easier to have a nice clear line drawn: we did the solar, everything else is their problem. I definitely start fixing stuff, if I feel its going to spill over and make the solar malfunction. (clean up the load center wiring, service issues, and grounding, knock out that 2nd fridge in the sun....) However, rewiring an overloaded 4x4 box is something I recommend not touching, unless you're being hired to rewire the whole place. Just pulling out the wiring for inspection on some old 40's romex, can cause enough insulation to crack and fall away, that when you push it back in you will cause a short. I hate being put in that position. Consider keeping the scope of work just to the load center, and replace breakers with GFCI and AFCI breakers. Then you have substantially improved safety without opening any fresh cans o' worms. (ie overstuffed 4x boxes filled with old wire) R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Jan 29, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Keith Cronin wrote: Folks..... > > >To support this idea further, this weekend we have our building trade show at >our local convention center. >New names, new faces in the solar industry each time I go. Today was no >different. Many are what I would describe as folks that only provide solar >installations. Others are offshoots of their respective trades, like roofing. > > >Its the low hanging fruit, in their eyes, but my sense is they could be >providing more value that the customers are looking for, but don't know its even >available. >If the margins are razor thin for PV, why not offer other wrench services that >others desire not to touch, as it might not be as glamorous, but necessary. > > >I'm always surprised that when I get invited out to an install, like I did this >week, from one of my friendly competitors, how they seem to flagrantly overlook >other value added services which could benefit the customer. >Here was my short list (10) from a small residential project I was invited to >see this week: (full disclosure, the home was old, code wise) > > >1. GFCI receptacles- bathrooms, kitchen counter, outside and near the clients >pool. >2. Smoke detectors- their were opportunities to install 5 at this home and >interconnect them to notify everyone in the home, in the event of an emergency. >3. Panel labeling- identifying the circuits in the breaker box for the client. >4. Upon removal of the panel cover- clean up wiring fiasco's waiting to happen- >doubled up wires on breakers and a slew of other code issues. >5. Open junction boxes with wires essentially incapable of being stuffed into >the 4x4 j-box; over an extension cover and a blank plate. >6. Broken receptacle in the hallway; I suspect this is the vacuum cleaner plug >and it was probably damaged due to jerking out the cord instead of leaning over >to pull it out. >7. Fluorescent fixtures in the garage-workshop zone; upgrade to T-8's and save $ >on the utility bill. >8. In our market, we have a penchant for having the second refrigerator outside. >This one was in the sun, roasting at the end of the day. Checked the born on >date and it was 1994. This is not energy efficient by any means. Brought my >Brand meter and was surprised at the amount of juice it was consuming. >Recommended taking the client to Sears and get an energy efficient one. Client >has a sentimental attachment to the refrigerator, but at my calcs, this >sentimental relationship was costing $22 a month. >9. They had the ubiquitous extension cord wrapped around the living room for a >mondo computer station. I recommended running a dedicated circuit to remedy the >code/cord situation. >10. In one section of the home, was the original part of the house and there >were still an old 6 circuit load center, filled to the gill with 12 circuits in >it. Clearly this was not designed to handle this much load and capacity, so I >recommended replacing it and or doing a calc to see if the feeder has reached >its limits and offer to re-route some of the circuits to the main panel. > > >I recommended to my friend, the competitor, to offer a free home inspection to >identify the deficiencies in their electrical infrastructure and add value to >the relationship. Seems simple, but often the PV is taking a front seat to other >things. In a competitive environment, that we are all in now, if we are all >doing apples to apples, then price seems to be the winner. When we add and offer >something else to the relationship, we have more than just a transaction. When >we all take the steps to raise the bar, others will follow. Everyones name gets >elevated, brand awareness wise and consumers will talk to each other about their >experiences and the value/education they've received. Sure, some entities will >do the minimum, as always. By providing a final package to your customers, upon >completion of your work, they would have pictures, documents etc., to show the >system in working condition (and attached to the roof!!). > > >Over the years, I've always elected to go out and fix others challenges, as it >has offered me perspective and a way to develop a relationship with someone who >might have been a little ignorant in their purchasing decisions. People tend to >remember you, when this happens and often you get referrals as a result. It also >means going into this type of relationship, delicately. I've not bashed the >competitor for what we've discovered, but to offer a solution to their current >situation and a step by step way to get there, together. > > >Lastly, with technology today, you could get a video camera, some boiler plate >questions and ask your customers about their experience with you and your >company. Post them on your company website, FB, wherever you market your >services. Referrals, by far, are the best conduit for the next project, or at >least this has been my road to success. People want to do business with people >they like and trust and price might not always be the final decision maker, as >they really want a company that will follow the golden rule and execute on their >contracts words. > > >If you know what your overhead is every day at your company, you can offer girl >scout cookies, if you can't sell a complete package to your prospective >customers. Uncover their desires by asking them what they want or what they've >heard about solar, is a bridge to understanding their needs first. Then can we >deliver on their needs. > > >Keith > > > > > > ________________________________ From: Nick Soleil <nicksoleilso...@yahoo.com> >To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 9:24:12 AM >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation >methods > > >Hi Joel: > For many years, when Petersen Dean was Old Country Roofing, I would install >the inverters and wiring for the Atlantis Sunslate roofs that they would sell. >I liked that partnership. Also, I recognize that solar is less and less of a >specialty anymore. Sooner than later, I would expect that solar installations >will be installed largely by electricians, general contractors, and even roofing >contractors (as long as they carry appropriate licensing.) > However, many of my old partners, such as roofers who I have often referred, >are now entering the solar industry. So my partners are becoming my >competitors. They have that right. > My hope is that whoever is installing solar, will at least provide a quality >installation. What worries me about the system I serviced this week, where the >modules were left sitting on a sloped roof without attachments, is that the >roofing attachments is the aspect of the project that the roofer should be able >to do best, but they skipped that step. That gives me some concern for the >safety of PV system owners and their neighbors. > > Nick Soleil >Project Manager >Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC >PO Box 657 >Petaluma, CA 94953 >Cell: 707-321-2937 >Office: 707-789-9537 >Fax: 707-769-9037 > > > > > ________________________________ From: Joel Davidson <joel.david...@sbcglobal.net> >To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 6:55:21 PM >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation >methods > > >Andrew, > >Carter era contractors did not kneecap alternative energy industry in the 1970s, >but that's not a wrenches subject. > >Sure, everyone has stories about bad customers, GCs, subs, equipment, etc. Some >of us are honest enough to admit that we have made a mistake or two. You don't >have to work for or with people you don't like or buy equipment you don't like. >But I don't know anyone in the building or energy industry who does not work >with others. > Few contractors nowadays do all the trades in-house. Do you sub out structural >engineering, surveying, roofing, arborist, concrete cutting, crane, etc.? Then >what's wrong with you being a sub if you like the other guy's work and can >control design and electrical installation or whatever you need to control? >There are plenty of decent contractors in your service area who would like to >have a good go-to PV company just as you like to have good go-to roofer. You >know your design and electrical costs and what margin you need for that portion >of your work. So what's the hassle? > >Joel Davidson >----- Original Message ----- >>From: Solar Energy Solutions >>To: RE-wrenches >>Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 8:41 AM >>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation >>methods >> >> >>Joel, >> >>Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system. When we help the >>unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses. We get >>a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their systems. It >>is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures unprofitable, >>they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of other hassles. This whole >>thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of systems >>were installed, but look at the damage it did to the industry. >> >>Respectfully, >> >> >> >>Andrew Koyaanisqatsi >>President >>Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. >>Since 1987, >>Moving Portland and Beyond >>to an Environmentally Sustainable Future. >>503-238-4502 >>www.solarenergyoregon.com >> >>"Better one's House too little one day >>than too big all the Year after." >> >>--- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson <joel.david...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> >> >>>From: Joel Davidson <joel.david...@sbcglobal.net> >>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation >>>methods >>>To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM >>> >>> >>>Guys, >>>You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about roofers' bad >>>work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups and your >>>quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their design and >>>electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt work). >>>Joel Davidson >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: Warren Lauzon >>>>To: RE-wrenches >>>>Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM >>>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation >>>>methods >>>> >>>> >>>>We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of solar >>>>installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and they were >>>>far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as your >>>>example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to the >>>>inverter, and not in conduit. >>>> >>>>From: Nick Soleil >>>>Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM >>>>To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation >>>>methods >>>> Hi wrenches: >>>> Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell >>>>solar? One company thought of something that I had never considered. Listen to >>>>this neat story. >>>> I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and >>>>re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof. The funny thing is that the >>>>roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer decided to >>>>leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any attachments to the >>>>structure. They didn't think it was necessary! >>>> Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact >>>>connector came unplugged. The customer noticed that his system was not >>>>operating, and called us to the site. >>>> >>>> Nick Soleil >>>>Project Manager >>>>Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC >>>>PO Box 657 >>>>Petaluma, CA 94953 >>>>Cell: 707-321-2937 >>>>Office: 707-789-9537 >>>>Fax: 707-769-9037 >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ _______________________________________________ >>>>List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>>> >>>>List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>Options & settings: >>>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>> >>>>List rules & etiquette: >>>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>>Check out participant bios: >>>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>>Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 >>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>Online Solar Store >>>>Free Solar Discussion Forum >>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ________________________________ _______________________________________________ >>>>List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>>> >>>>List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>Options & settings: >>>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>> >>>>List rules & etiquette: >>>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>>Check out participant bios: >>>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>>List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>>Options & settings: >>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>> >>>List rules & etiquette: >>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>>Check out participant bios: >>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >>List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Options & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Home Power magazine > >List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > >Options & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachme nts/20110130/624cc1c3/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 15:51:55 -0800 (PST) From: Keith Cronin <electrich...@yahoo.com> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Message-ID: <964461.29641...@web113407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Nick and everyone..... Yes and Yes. Our contract is a 3 part NCR form. Our flat rate price book has 82 pages of tasks for our electrical services and labeling the panel is one of them. If you, or anyone is interested in getting a sample of our book, contact me off list. ________________________________ From: Nick Soleil <nicksoleilso...@yahoo.com> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Sent: Sun, January 30, 2011 10:57:19 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Hi Kieth: Have you really drawn up a contract to label a load center. Honestly, that should probably be included as part of the PV project. Many inspectors want to see that the panels are labelled at final inspection. I end up doing all servicing on an hourly basis. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax: 707-769-9037 ________________________________ From: R Ray Walters <r...@solarray.com> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Sent: Sun, January 30, 2011 10:48:06 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Keith; I try to catch some of those issues on our installs, but the problem is that you then become responsible for every electrical issue on the property. If the wiring that you saw looked that bad, Keith, imagine what might be hidden in the wall? Sometimes its easier to have a nice clear line drawn: we did the solar, everything else is their problem. I definitely start fixing stuff, if I feel its going to spill over and make the solar malfunction. (clean up the load center wiring, service issues, and grounding, knock out that 2nd fridge in the sun....) However, rewiring an overloaded 4x4 box is something I recommend not touching, unless you're being hired to rewire the whole place. Just pulling out the wiring for inspection on some old 40's romex, can cause enough insulation to crack and fall away, that when you push it back in you will cause a short. I hate being put in that position. Consider keeping the scope of work just to the load center, and replace breakers with GFCI and AFCI breakers. Then you have substantially improved safety without opening any fresh cans o' worms. (ie overstuffed 4x boxes filled with old wire) R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Jan 29, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Keith Cronin wrote: Folks..... > > >To support this idea further, this weekend we have our building trade show at >our local convention center. >New names, new faces in the solar industry each time I go. Today was no >different. Many are what I would describe as folks that only provide solar >installations. Others are offshoots of their respective trades, like roofing. > > >Its the low hanging fruit, in their eyes, but my sense is they could be >providing more value that the customers are looking for, but don't know its even >available. >If the margins are razor thin for PV, why not offer other wrench services that >others desire not to touch, as it might not be as glamorous, but necessary. > > >I'm always surprised that when I get invited out to an install, like I did this >week, from one of my friendly competitors, how they seem to flagrantly overlook >other value added services which could benefit the customer. >Here was my short list (10) from a small residential project I was invited to >see this week: (full disclosure, the home was old, code wise) > > >1. GFCI receptacles- bathrooms, kitchen counter, outside and near the clients >pool. >2. Smoke detectors- their were opportunities to install 5 at this home and >interconnect them to notify everyone in the home, in the event of an emergency. >3. Panel labeling- identifying the circuits in the breaker box for the client. >4. Upon removal of the panel cover- clean up wiring fiasco's waiting to happen- >doubled up wires on breakers and a slew of other code issues. >5. Open junction boxes with wires essentially incapable of being stuffed into >the 4x4 j-box; over an extension cover and a blank plate. >6. Broken receptacle in the hallway; I suspect this is the vacuum cleaner plug >and it was probably damaged due to jerking out the cord instead of leaning over >to pull it out. >7. Fluorescent fixtures in the garage-workshop zone; upgrade to T-8's and save $ >on the utility bill. >8. In our market, we have a penchant for having the second refrigerator outside. >This one was in the sun, roasting at the end of the day. Checked the born on >date and it was 1994. This is not energy efficient by any means. Brought my >Brand meter and was surprised at the amount of juice it was consuming. >Recommended taking the client to Sears and get an energy efficient one. Client >has a sentimental attachment to the refrigerator, but at my calcs, this >sentimental relationship was costing $22 a month. >9. They had the ubiquitous extension cord wrapped around the living room for a >mondo computer station. I recommended running a dedicated circuit to remedy the >code/cord situation. >10. In one section of the home, was the original part of the house and there >were still an old 6 circuit load center, filled to the gill with 12 circuits in >it. Clearly this was not designed to handle this much load and capacity, so I >recommended replacing it and or doing a calc to see if the feeder has reached >its limits and offer to re-route some of the circuits to the main panel. > > >I recommended to my friend, the competitor, to offer a free home inspection to >identify the deficiencies in their electrical infrastructure and add value to >the relationship. Seems simple, but often the PV is taking a front seat to other >things. In a competitive environment, that we are all in now, if we are all >doing apples to apples, then price seems to be the winner. When we add and >offer something else to the relationship, we have more than just a transaction. >When we all take the steps to raise the bar, others will follow. Everyones name >gets elevated, brand awareness wise and consumers will talk to each other about >their experiences and the value/education they've received. Sure, some entities >will do the minimum, as always. By providing a final package to your customers, >upon completion of your work, they would have pictures, documents etc., to show >the system in working condition (and attached to the roof!!). > > >Over the years, I've always elected to go out and fix others challenges, as it >has offered me perspective and a way to develop a relationship with someone who >might have been a little ignorant in their purchasing decisions. People tend to >remember you, when this happens and often you get referrals as a result. It also >means going into this type of relationship, delicately. I've not bashed the >competitor for what we've discovered, but to offer a solution to their current >situation and a step by step way to get there, together. > > >Lastly, with technology today, you could get a video camera, some boiler plate >questions and ask your customers about their experience with you and your >company. Post them on your company website, FB, wherever you market your >services. Referrals, by far, are the best conduit for the next project, or at >least this has been my road to success. People want to do business with people >they like and trust and price might not always be the final decision maker, as >they really want a company that will follow the golden rule and execute on their >contracts words. > > >If you know what your overhead is every day at your company, you can offer girl >scout cookies, if you can't sell a complete package to your prospective >customers. Uncover their desires by asking them what they want or what they've >heard about solar, is a bridge to understanding their needs first. Then can we >deliver on their needs. > > >Keith > > > > > > ________________________________ From: Nick Soleil <nicksoleilso...@yahoo.com> >To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 9:24:12 AM >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation >methods > > >Hi Joel: > For many years, when Petersen Dean was Old Country Roofing, I would install >the inverters and wiring for the Atlantis Sunslate roofs that they would sell. >I liked that partnership. Also, I recognize that solar is less and less of a >specialty anymore. Sooner than later, I would expect that solar installations >will be installed largely by electricians, general contractors, and even >roofing contractors (as long as they carry appropriate licensing.) > However, many of my old partners, such as roofers who I have often referred, >are now entering the solar industry. So my partners are becoming my >competitors. They have that right. > My hope is that whoever is installing solar, will at least provide a quality >installation. What worries me about the system I serviced this week, where the >modules were left sitting on a sloped roof without attachments, is that the >roofing attachments is the aspect of the project that the roofer should be able >to do best, but they skipped that step. That gives me some concern for the >safety of PV system owners and their neighbors. > > Nick Soleil >Project Manager >Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC >PO Box 657 >Petaluma, CA 94953 >Cell: 707-321-2937 >Office: 707-789-9537 >Fax: 707-769-9037 > > > > > ________________________________ From: Joel Davidson <joel.david...@sbcglobal.net> >To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 6:55:21 PM >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation >methods > > >Andrew, > >Carter era contractors did not kneecap alternative energy industry in the 1970s, >but that's not a wrenches subject. > >Sure, everyone has stories about bad customers, GCs, subs, equipment, etc. Some >of us are honest enough to admit that we have made a mistake or two. You don't >have to work for or with people you don't like or buy equipment you don't like. >But I don't know anyone in the building or energy industry who does not work >with others. > Few contractors nowadays do all the trades in-house. Do you sub out structural >engineering, surveying, roofing, arborist, concrete cutting, crane, etc.? Then >what's wrong with you being a sub if you like the other guy's work and can >control design and electrical installation or whatever you need to control? >There are plenty of decent contractors in your service area who would like to >have a good go-to PV company just as you like to have good go-to roofer. You >know your design and electrical costs and what margin you need for that portion >of your work. So what's the hassle? > >Joel Davidson >----- Original Message ----- >>From: Solar Energy Solutions >>To: RE-wrenches >>Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 8:41 AM >>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation >>methods >> >> >>Joel, >> >>Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system. When we help the >>unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses. We get >>a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their systems. It >>is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures unprofitable, >>they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of other hassles. This whole >>thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of systems >>were installed, but look at the damage it did to the industry. >> >>Respectfully, >> >> >> >>Andrew Koyaanisqatsi >>President >>Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. >>Since 1987, >>Moving Portland and Beyond >>to an Environmentally Sustainable Future. >>503-238-4502 >>www.solarenergyoregon.com >> >>"Better one's House too little one day >>than too big all the Year after." >> >>--- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson <joel.david...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> >> >>>From: Joel Davidson <joel.david...@sbcglobal.net> >>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation >>>methods >>>To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM >>> >>> >>>Guys, >>>You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about roofers' bad >>>work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups and your >>>quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their design and >>>electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt work). >>>Joel Davidson >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: Warren Lauzon >>>>To: RE-wrenches >>>>Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM >>>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation >>>>methods >>>> >>>> >>>>We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of solar >>>>installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and they were >>>>far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as your >>>>example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to the >>>>inverter, and not in conduit. >>>> >>>>From: Nick Soleil >>>>Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM >>>>To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation >>>>methods >>>> Hi wrenches: >>>> Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell >>>>solar? One company thought of something that I had never considered. Listen to >>>>this neat story. >>>> I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and >>>>re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof. The funny thing is that the >>>>roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer decided to >>>>leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any attachments to the >>>>structure. They didn't think it was necessary! >>>> Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact >>>>connector came unplugged. The customer noticed that his system was not >>>>operating, and called us to the site. >>>> >>>> Nick Soleil >>>>Project Manager >>>>Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC >>>>PO Box 657 >>>>Petaluma, CA 94953 >>>>Cell: 707-321-2937 >>>>Office: 707-789-9537 >>>>Fax: 707-769-9037 >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ _______________________________________________ >>>>List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>>> >>>>List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>Options & settings: >>>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>> >>>>List rules & etiquette: >>>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>>Check out participant bios: >>>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>>Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 >>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>Online Solar Store >>>>Free Solar Discussion Forum >>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ________________________________ _______________________________________________ >>>>List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>>> >>>>List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>Options & settings: >>>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>> >>>>List rules & etiquette: >>>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>>Check out participant bios: >>>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>>List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>>Options & settings: >>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>> >>>List rules & etiquette: >>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>>Check out participant bios: >>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >>List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Options & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Home Power magazine > >List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > >Options & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachme nts/20110130/c1247d7e/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 11:42:32 -0800 From: "Joel Davidson" <joel.david...@sbcglobal.net> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Message-ID: <7C4AFF0E8841403AB8F174297CE75DE7@JOEL> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Learn from insurance companies who have become experts at wording contracts that excluse pre-existing conditions. See http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/pre-existing-condition/ and lots of other info on the WWW. ----- Original Message ----- From: R Ray Walters To: RE-wrenches Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 10:48 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods Keith; I try to catch some of those issues on our installs, but the problem is that you then become responsible for every electrical issue on the property. If the wiring that you saw looked that bad, Keith, imagine what might be hidden in the wall? Sometimes its easier to have a nice clear line drawn: we did the solar, everything else is their problem. I definitely start fixing stuff, if I feel its going to spill over and make the solar malfunction. (clean up the load center wiring, service issues, and grounding, knock out that 2nd fridge in the sun....) However, rewiring an overloaded 4x4 box is something I recommend not touching, unless you're being hired to rewire the whole place. Just pulling out the wiring for inspection on some old 40's romex, can cause enough insulation to crack and fall away, that when you push it back in you will cause a short. I hate being put in that position. Consider keeping the scope of work just to the load center, and replace breakers with GFCI and AFCI breakers. Then you have substantially improved safety without opening any fresh cans o' worms. (ie overstuffed 4x boxes filled with old wire) R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Jan 29, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Keith Cronin wrote: Folks..... To support this idea further, this weekend we have our building trade show at our local convention center. New names, new faces in the solar industry each time I go. Today was no different. Many are what I would describe as folks that only provide solar installations. Others are offshoots of their respective trades, like roofing. Its the low hanging fruit, in their eyes, but my sense is they could be providing more value that the customers are looking for, but don't know its even available. If the margins are razor thin for PV, why not offer other wrench services that others desire not to touch, as it might not be as glamorous, but necessary. I'm always surprised that when I get invited out to an install, like I did this week, from one of my friendly competitors, how they seem to flagrantly overlook other value added services which could benefit the customer. Here was my short list (10) from a small residential project I was invited to see this week: (full disclosure, the home was old, code wise) 1. GFCI receptacles- bathrooms, kitchen counter, outside and near the clients pool. 2. Smoke detectors- their were opportunities to install 5 at this home and interconnect them to notify everyone in the home, in the event of an emergency. 3. Panel labeling- identifying the circuits in the breaker box for the client. 4. Upon removal of the panel cover- clean up wiring fiasco's waiting to happen- doubled up wires on breakers and a slew of other code issues. 5. Open junction boxes with wires essentially incapable of being stuffed into the 4x4 j-box; over an extension cover and a blank plate. 6. Broken receptacle in the hallway; I suspect this is the vacuum cleaner plug and it was probably damaged due to jerking out the cord instead of leaning over to pull it out. 7. Fluorescent fixtures in the garage-workshop zone; upgrade to T-8's and save $ on the utility bill. 8. In our market, we have a penchant for having the second refrigerator outside. This one was in the sun, roasting at the end of the day. Checked the born on date and it was 1994. This is not energy efficient by any means. Brought my Brand meter and was surprised at the amount of juice it was consuming. Recommended taking the client to Sears and get an energy efficient one. Client has a sentimental attachment to the refrigerator, but at my calcs, this sentimental relationship was costing $22 a month. 9. They had the ubiquitous extension cord wrapped around the living room for a mondo computer station. I recommended running a dedicated circuit to remedy the code/cord situation. 10. In one section of the home, was the original part of the house and there were still an old 6 circuit load center, filled to the gill with 12 circuits in it. Clearly this was not designed to handle this much load and capacity, so I recommended replacing it and or doing a calc to see if the feeder has reached its limits and offer to re-route some of the circuits to the main panel. I recommended to my friend, the competitor, to offer a free home inspection to identify the deficiencies in their electrical infrastructure and add value to the relationship. Seems simple, but often the PV is taking a front seat to other things. In a competitive environment, that we are all in now, if we are all doing apples to apples, then price seems to be the winner. When we add and offer something else to the relationship, we have more than just a transaction. When we all take the steps to raise the bar, others will follow. Everyones name gets elevated, brand awareness wise and consumers will talk to each other about their experiences and the value/education they've received. Sure, some entities will do the minimum, as always. By providing a final package to your customers, upon completion of your work, they would have pictures, documents etc., to show the system in working condition (and attached to the roof!!). Over the years, I've always elected to go out and fix others challenges, as it has offered me perspective and a way to develop a relationship with someone who might have been a little ignorant in their purchasing decisions. People tend to remember you, when this happens and often you get referrals as a result. It also means going into this type of relationship, delicately. I've not bashed the competitor for what we've discovered, but to offer a solution to their current situation and a step by step way to get there, together. Lastly, with technology today, you could get a video camera, some boiler plate questions and ask your customers about their experience with you and your company. Post them on your company website, FB, wherever you market your services. Referrals, by far, are the best conduit for the next project, or at least this has been my road to success. People want to do business with people they like and trust and price might not always be the final decision maker, as they really want a company that will follow the golden rule and execute on their contracts words. If you know what your overhead is every day at your company, you can offer girl scout cookies, if you can't sell a complete package to your prospective customers. Uncover their desires by asking them what they want or what they've heard about solar, is a bridge to understanding their needs first. Then can we deliver on their needs. Keith ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nick Soleil <nicksoleilso...@yahoo.com> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 9:24:12 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Hi Joel: For many years, when Petersen Dean was Old Country Roofing, I would install the inverters and wiring for the Atlantis Sunslate roofs that they would sell. I liked that partnership. Also, I recognize that solar is less and less of a specialty anymore. Sooner than later, I would expect that solar installations will be installed largely by electricians, general contractors, and even roofing contractors (as long as they carry appropriate licensing.) However, many of my old partners, such as roofers who I have often referred, are now entering the solar industry. So my partners are becoming my competitors. They have that right. My hope is that whoever is installing solar, will at least provide a quality installation. What worries me about the system I serviced this week, where the modules were left sitting on a sloped roof without attachments, is that the roofing attachments is the aspect of the project that the roofer should be able to do best, but they skipped that step. That gives me some concern for the safety of PV system owners and their neighbors. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax: 707-769-9037 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joel Davidson <joel.david...@sbcglobal.net> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 6:55:21 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Andrew, Carter era contractors did not kneecap alternative energy industry in the 1970s, but that's not a wrenches subject. Sure, everyone has stories about bad customers, GCs, subs, equipment, etc. Some of us are honest enough to admit that we have made a mistake or two. You don't have to work for or with people you don't like or buy equipment you don't like. But I don't know anyone in the building or energy industry who does not work with others. Few contractors nowadays do all the trades in-house. Do you sub out structural engineering, surveying, roofing, arborist, concrete cutting, crane, etc.? Then what's wrong with you being a sub if you like the other guy's work and can control design and electrical installation or whatever you need to control? There are plenty of decent contractors in your service area who would like to have a good go-to PV company just as you like to have good go-to roofer. You know your design and electrical costs and what margin you need for that portion of your work. So what's the hassle? Joel Davidson ----- Original Message ----- From: Solar Energy Solutions To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 8:41 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods Joel, Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system. When we help the unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses. We get a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their systems. It is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures unprofitable, they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of other hassles. This whole thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of systems were installed, but look at the damage it did to the industry. Respectfully, Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. Since 1987, Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future. 503-238-4502 www.solarenergyoregon.com "Better one's House too little one day than too big all the Year after." --- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson <joel.david...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: From: Joel Davidson <joel.david...@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM Guys, You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about roofers' bad work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups and your quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their design and electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt work). Joel Davidson ----- Original Message ----- From: Warren Lauzon To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of solar installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and they were far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as your example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to the inverter, and not in conduit. From: Nick Soleil Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods Hi wrenches: Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell solar? One company thought of something that I had never considered. Listen to this neat story. I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof. The funny thing is that the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer decided to leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any attachments to the structure. They didn't think it was necessary! Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact connector came unplugged. The customer noticed that his system was not operating, and called us to the site. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax: 707-769-9037 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Wrenches: A few years ago our company set up an A/C coupled micro grid using a quad stack of Outback 3648, with 2 SB6000 inverters tied to the output side of the Outbacks. It worked marvelously, using the grid tied inverters to push the current through the output terminals until the bulk battery voltage is reached, then they are disconnected with relays to prevent overcharging. Both this system and the design I'm working n are supplying power to commercial woodshops that require generators, therefore taking care of the absorb and float stages. My question is, has anyone out there done this type of system with a Trace(or Xantrex, Schnieder)4024? The design I'm working on now has a 1500' conduit run(yikes) and already needs A/C to be run. My plan is to have a SB4000 inverter, wired to a high efficiency 5k 240/480 transformer on the array side, and another 5k 480/120 transformer on the Trace side. I know the design would work with an Outback, but I haven't tried it with a Trace to know. Any experience out there? Lars Ortegren NABCEP Certified Solar Installer Director of Operations California Solar Electric Company 10141 Evening Star Drive, Suite 6 Grass Valley, CA 95945 Phone : (530)274-3671 Fax: (530)274-7518 List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Online Solar Store Free Solar Discussion Forum -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org