Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 6, Issue 423
Hi Bill – If there is a short circuit between two conductors or to ground under the DC array won’t the fire issue still remain? I understand the arc fault will stop load from the inverter side but it seems like it does not entirely solve the problem. Or maybe I’m not fully understanding how AFCI works. I was on the roof the other day inspecting a 10 year old system installed right on the coast. The inverter was dead and probably had been dead for several years. On the roof the DC combiner box had rusted out (NEMA-3 installed at 5:12 pitch!) and there had been a pretty serious fire in the box. Luckily it didn’t spread to the roof – it was still arcing away when I busted open the rusted lid. That seems like a workmanship the materials selection issue to me. Best, August August Goers Luminalt Energy Corporation o: 415.641.4000 m: 415.559.1525 www.luminalt.com *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Bill Brooks *Sent:* Monday, November 11, 2013 3:38 PM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 6, Issue 423 William and David, This particular problem goes away with arc fault detection. The longer we wait to introduce arc fault detection into our systems, the more we will have opportunities for news reports such as the one William brings forward. Wire ties are not the problem. Could a wire tie cause a problem-sure, just like anything improperly installed. At the end of the day, you can a have a perfectly installed system, but if it does not have arc fault detection and high resolution ground fault detection, it can still catch on fire. You have no control over product failures other than buying from large companies that can actually insure their products in a failure. Fires are not that common, but it didn’t take much to get all the viewers of this news report up in arms did it? Bill. *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [ mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgre-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *David Brearley *Sent:* Monday, November 11, 2013 11:37 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 6, Issue 423 William, Thanks for posting a link to that story. Here's more background on the tile roof integrated PV system recall and warranty fiasco: http://runonsun.com/~runons5/blogs/blog1.php/solworks/safety/suntech-recalls-solar-roofing-tiles http://runonsun.com/~runons5/blogs/blog1.php/ranting/centex-clouds-solar-tile-repairs http://runonsun.com/~runons5/blogs/blog1.php/solworks/safety/centex-suspends-solar-repairs http://runonsun.com/~runons5/blogs/blog1.php/solnews/centex-steps-up-will-replace It sounds like this could be a product design failure rather than a wire management issue. But wire management is certainly suspect until proven innocent. Regardless of the cause, since these are roof integrated systems, Centex basically needs to replace all of the TIPV systems with conventional rack-mounted PV systems—provided they can get the homeowners to sign the liability releases. Even though these are relatively unique installations, the general lessons would seem to apply broadly. Qualify your vendors carefully. Make sure your installers are properly trained. Put QC systems in place to catch problems. A small investment in quality wire management practices is cheap compared to the alternative. Best regards, David Brearley Senior Technical Editor, *SolarPro* magazine On Nov 11, 2013, at 1:02 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.orgwrote: *From: *William Miller will...@millersolar.com *Subject: [RE-wrenches] House fire news* *Date: *November 11, 2013 12:09:08 PM CST *To: *RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org *Reply-To: *RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Friends: This was brought to my attention: http://on.aol.com/video/are-solar-panels-a-fire-hazard--518000682?hp=1playlist=127173icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl12%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D403848 I know this is an isolated scenario, but bad PR can spread like umm, wildfire. We should all be aware of bad press so we can respond to questions about safety hazards. I think this story is relevant in that as the number of PV installations continues to grow, the chance of an accident naturally increases. I believe we all need to do the best work possible to minimize this risk. Even though some of the Code requirements seem illogical, I favor strict adherence to the code, including the more subjective judgments on good workmanship. I look forward to the day when plastic wire ties of any type are not accepted for wire management – I think they are sub-standard practice and increase the likelihood of fire or shock hazards. William Miller image003.jpg 17395 Oak Rd. Atascadero, CA 93422 www.millersolar.com 805-438-5600 voice
Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 6, Issue 423
William, Thanks for posting a link to that story. Here's more background on the tile roof integrated PV system recall and warranty fiasco: http://runonsun.com/~runons5/blogs/blog1.php/solworks/safety/suntech-recalls-solar-roofing-tiles http://runonsun.com/~runons5/blogs/blog1.php/ranting/centex-clouds-solar-tile-repairs http://runonsun.com/~runons5/blogs/blog1.php/solworks/safety/centex-suspends-solar-repairs http://runonsun.com/~runons5/blogs/blog1.php/solnews/centex-steps-up-will-replace It sounds like this could be a product design failure rather than a wire management issue. But wire management is certainly suspect until proven innocent. Regardless of the cause, since these are roof integrated systems, Centex basically needs to replace all of the TIPV systems with conventional rack-mounted PV systems—provided they can get the homeowners to sign the liability releases. Even though these are relatively unique installations, the general lessons would seem to apply broadly. Qualify your vendors carefully. Make sure your installers are properly trained. Put QC systems in place to catch problems. A small investment in quality wire management practices is cheap compared to the alternative. Best regards, David Brearley Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro magazine On Nov 11, 2013, at 1:02 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: From: William Miller will...@millersolar.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] House fire news Date: November 11, 2013 12:09:08 PM CST To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Reply-To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Friends: This was brought to my attention: http://on.aol.com/video/are-solar-panels-a-fire-hazard--518000682?hp=1playlist=127173icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl12%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D403848 I know this is an isolated scenario, but bad PR can spread like umm, wildfire. We should all be aware of bad press so we can respond to questions about safety hazards. I think this story is relevant in that as the number of PV installations continues to grow, the chance of an accident naturally increases. I believe we all need to do the best work possible to minimize this risk. Even though some of the Code requirements seem illogical, I favor strict adherence to the code, including the more subjective judgments on good workmanship. I look forward to the day when plastic wire ties of any type are not accepted for wire management – I think they are sub-standard practice and increase the likelihood of fire or shock hazards. William Miller image003.jpg 17395 Oak Rd. Atascadero, CA 93422 www.millersolar.com 805-438-5600 voice ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 6, Issue 423
William and David, This particular problem goes away with arc fault detection. The longer we wait to introduce arc fault detection into our systems, the more we will have opportunities for news reports such as the one William brings forward. Wire ties are not the problem. Could a wire tie cause a problem-sure, just like anything improperly installed. At the end of the day, you can a have a perfectly installed system, but if it does not have arc fault detection and high resolution ground fault detection, it can still catch on fire. You have no control over product failures other than buying from large companies that can actually insure their products in a failure. Fires are not that common, but it didn't take much to get all the viewers of this news report up in arms did it? Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Brearley Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:37 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 6, Issue 423 William, Thanks for posting a link to that story. Here's more background on the tile roof integrated PV system recall and warranty fiasco: http://runonsun.com/~runons5/blogs/blog1.php/solworks/safety/suntech-recalls -solar-roofing-tiles http://runonsun.com/~runons5/blogs/blog1.php/ranting/centex-clouds-solar-til e-repairs http://runonsun.com/~runons5/blogs/blog1.php/solworks/safety/centex-suspends -solar-repairs http://runonsun.com/~runons5/blogs/blog1.php/solnews/centex-steps-up-will-re place It sounds like this could be a product design failure rather than a wire management issue. But wire management is certainly suspect until proven innocent. Regardless of the cause, since these are roof integrated systems, Centex basically needs to replace all of the TIPV systems with conventional rack-mounted PV systems-provided they can get the homeowners to sign the liability releases. Even though these are relatively unique installations, the general lessons would seem to apply broadly. Qualify your vendors carefully. Make sure your installers are properly trained. Put QC systems in place to catch problems. A small investment in quality wire management practices is cheap compared to the alternative. Best regards, David Brearley Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro magazine On Nov 11, 2013, at 1:02 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: From: William Miller will...@millersolar.com mailto:will...@millersolar.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] House fire news Date: November 11, 2013 12:09:08 PM CST To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Reply-To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Friends: This was brought to my attention: http://on.aol.com/video/are-solar-panels-a-fire-hazard--518000682?hp=1 http://on.aol.com/video/are-solar-panels-a-fire-hazard--518000682?hp=1play list=127173icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl12%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D403848 playlist=127173icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl12%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D403848 I know this is an isolated scenario, but bad PR can spread like umm, wildfire. We should all be aware of bad press so we can respond to questions about safety hazards. I think this story is relevant in that as the number of PV installations continues to grow, the chance of an accident naturally increases. I believe we all need to do the best work possible to minimize this risk. Even though some of the Code requirements seem illogical, I favor strict adherence to the code, including the more subjective judgments on good workmanship. I look forward to the day when plastic wire ties of any type are not accepted for wire management - I think they are sub-standard practice and increase the likelihood of fire or shock hazards. William Miller image003.jpg 17395 Oak Rd. Atascadero, CA 93422 www.millersolar.com http://www.millersolar.com/ 805-438-5600 voice ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
