Re: [RE-wrenches] Rail concerns (was: Top of POST mount)
I tend to agree about the clamps, and in a case like this where there is little risk of an expensive mistake with a voided warranty, I would actually drill holes in the frame and use bottom clamps in addition to top clamping. Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 5:48 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rail concerns (was: Top of POST mount) Friends: When installing modules on extruded rail systems, I worry that any vibration or motion could loosen top-down clamps. Unlike bottom-up systems that install with tried-and-true bolts and lock washers through captive holes, clamp systems seem less positive in holding capability. If one rail in the proposed design moves in relation to the other, the clamps could loosen and the modules could eventually slide right off the rail. It appears that wind turbulence could rock the modules in the proposed design, there is a lot of leverage for that. This might loosen clamps. I hesitate to design my own racking. Small business management is all about controlling risk. I do not want to be responsible for damaged modules if my design fails. At least one local AHJ forbids home-brew racks for a permitted system. I'm not sure I support that restrictive approach. I might suggest allowing them for owner-builder systems where the home owner assumes the liability. For myself, the remaining tasks associated with installing a system properly have enough pitfalls without me playing structural engineer. And lastly, it is my understanding that Solar World had temporarily abandoned mounting holes in the back rails of their new Plus modules (my quotes) and even abandoned the flanges altogether. According to what I heard, industry pressure forced them to add them back in, but as an option. This is third-hand knowledge, but I do know that removing the option to mount panels with through bolts would be a big mistake. William Miller Here is my cobulated idea, admittedly done this way to take advantage of parts in stock: http://www.fafcosolar.com/download/402/Cobulate.pdf ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Rail concerns (was: Top of POST mount)
You definitely have a point from a basic engineering point of view that bolts through the module bottom holes is technically the most robust option. However, the main racking companies have been selling top down clamps for a very long time and the two big ones, Unirac and Pro Solar, haven't changed their design for a long long time as far as I can tell. I tend to like Pro Solar's clamps, especially the end clamps, a bit better than Unirac's but I have to believe that if there was a problem that these companies would be the first to change their design. Modules flying off the rack or roof is a very bad thing. Some of you may recall the modified hex bolts that Unirac was shipping for a little while a couple of years ago. They definitely weren't good but Unirac got right on it and we had to switch out each and every one that we had installed... That said, if you're talking about pole mounts and other types of racking where you can get underneath easily then why not just use the bottom holes. -August *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski *Sent:* Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:40 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rail concerns (was: Top of POST mount) I tend to agree about the clamps, and in a case like this where there is little risk of an expensive mistake with a voided warranty, I would actually drill holes in the frame and use bottom clamps in addition to top clamping. Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *William Miller *Sent:* Tuesday, March 22, 2011 5:48 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Rail concerns (was: Top of POST mount) Friends: When installing modules on extruded rail systems, I worry that any vibration or motion could loosen top-down clamps. Unlike bottom-up systems that install with tried-and-true bolts and lock washers through captive holes, clamp systems seem less positive in holding capability. If one rail in the proposed design moves in relation to the other, the clamps could loosen and the modules could eventually slide right off the rail. It appears that wind turbulence could rock the modules in the proposed design, there is a lot of leverage for that. This might loosen clamps. I hesitate to design my own racking. Small business management is all about controlling risk. I do not want to be responsible for damaged modules if my design fails. At least one local AHJ forbids home-brew racks for a permitted system. I'm not sure I support that restrictive approach. I might suggest allowing them for owner-builder systems where the home owner assumes the liability. For myself, the remaining tasks associated with installing a system properly have enough pitfalls without me playing structural engineer. And lastly, it is my understanding that Solar World had temporarily abandoned mounting holes in the back rails of their new Plus modules (my quotes) and even abandoned the flanges altogether. According to what I heard, industry pressure forced them to add them back in, but as an option. This is third-hand knowledge, but I do know that removing the option to mount panels with through bolts would be a big mistake. William Miller Here is my “cobulated” idea, admittedly done this way to take advantage of parts in stock: http://www.fafcosolar.com/download/402/Cobulate.pdf ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Rail concerns (was: Top of POST mount)
Yup.. I'm on board with the bolted vs clamp notion for this app.. I also agree with a wider spacing for panel attachments... As for racking manufacturers and design oopsies, anyone have anything nice to say about Iron Ridge roof mounts? Personally, I kinda like the rail design, but the slide in bolt set up seriously sucks.. or Am I missing something.. again? db Dan BrownFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.comNABCEP #092907-44 Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rail concerns (was: Top of POST mount) From: August Goers aug...@luminalt.com Date: Wed, March 23, 2011 10:09 am To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org You definitely have a point from a basic engineering point of view that bolts through the module bottom holes is technically the most robust option. However, the main racking companies have been selling top down clamps for a very long time and the two big ones, Unirac and Pro Solar, haven't changed their design for a long long time as far as I can tell. I tend to like Pro Solar's clamps, especially the end clamps, a bit better than Unirac's but I have to believe that if there was a problem that these companies would be the first to change their design. Modules flying off the rack or roof is a very bad thing. Some of you may recall the modified hex bolts that Unirac was shipping for a little while a couple of years ago. They definitely weren't good but Unirac got right on it and we had to switch out each and every one that we had installed... That said, if you're talking about pole mounts and other types of racking where you can get underneath easily then why not just use the bottom holes. -August From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:40 AMTo: RE-wrenchesSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rail concerns (was: Top of POST mount) I tend to agree about the clamps, and in a case like this where there is little risk of an expensive mistake with a voided warranty, I would actually drill holes in the frame and use bottom clamps in addition to top clamping. Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 5:48 PMTo: RE-wrenchesSubject: [RE-wrenches] Rail concerns (was: Top of POST mount) Friends:When installing modules on extruded rail systems, I worry that any vibration or motion could loosen top-down clamps. Unlike bottom-up systems that install with tried-and-true bolts and lock washers through captive holes, clamp systems seem less "positive" in holding capability. If one rail in the proposed design moves in relation to the other, the clamps could loosen and the modules could eventually slide right off the rail. It appears that wind turbulence could rock the modules in the proposed design, there is a lot of leverage for that. This might loosen clamps. I hesitate to design my own racking. Small business management is all about controlling risk. I do not want to be responsible for damaged modules if my design fails.At least one local AHJ forbids home-brew racks for a permitted system. I'm not sure I support that restrictive approach. I might suggest allowing them for owner-builder systems where the home owner assumes the liability. For myself, the remaining tasks associated with installing a system properly have enough pitfalls without me playing structural engineer. And lastly, it is my understanding that Solar World had temporarily abandoned mounting holes in the back rails of their new "Plus" modules (my quotes) and even abandoned the flanges altogether. According to what I heard, industry pressure forced them to add them back in, but as an option. This is third-hand knowledge, but I do know that removing the option to mount panels with through bolts would be a big mistake. William MillerHere is my “cobulated” idea, admittedly done this way to take advantage of parts in stock:http://www.fafcosolar.com/download/402/Cobulate.pdf ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Rail concerns (was: Top of POST mount)
Yes, the IronRidge slide in bolt on the top of the rail is a design flaw. They should use drop in T-bolts, like Unirac. What happens when you break one, after installing enphase micro's, and grounding lugs, etc. I've had to cut the bolt off, and install an extra Unirac t-bolt. IronRidge needs to seriously rethink that one. Other than that, I really like their products, especially the dark bronze anodized rail. Looks great under dark framed modules. Mike Nelson MD Electric Solar Gualala, Ca. On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 7:34 AM, d...@foxfire-energy.com wrote: Yup.. I'm on board with the bolted vs clamp notion for this app.. I also agree with a wider spacing for panel attachments... As for racking manufacturers and design oopsies, anyone have anything nice to say about Iron Ridge roof mounts? Personally, I kinda like the rail design, but the slide in bolt set up seriously sucks.. or Am I missing something.. again? db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com http://www.foxfire-energy.com/ NABCEP #092907-44 Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rail concerns (was: Top of POST mount) From: August Goers aug...@luminalt.com Date: Wed, March 23, 2011 10:09 am To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org You definitely have a point from a basic engineering point of view that bolts through the module bottom holes is technically the most robust option. However, the main racking companies have been selling top down clamps for a very long time and the two big ones, Unirac and Pro Solar, haven't changed their design for a long long time as far as I can tell. I tend to like Pro Solar's clamps, especially the end clamps, a bit better than Unirac's but I have to believe that if there was a problem that these companies would be the first to change their design. Modules flying off the rack or roof is a very bad thing. Some of you may recall the modified hex bolts that Unirac was shipping for a little while a couple of years ago. They definitely weren't good but Unirac got right on it and we had to switch out each and every one that we had installed... That said, if you're talking about pole mounts and other types of racking where you can get underneath easily then why not just use the bottom holes. -August *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski *Sent:* Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:40 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rail concerns (was: Top of POST mount) I tend to agree about the clamps, and in a case like this where there is little risk of an expensive mistake with a voided warranty, I would actually drill holes in the frame and use bottom clamps in addition to top clamping. Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *William Miller *Sent:* Tuesday, March 22, 2011 5:48 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Rail concerns (was: Top of POST mount) Friends: When installing modules on extruded rail systems, I worry that any vibration or motion could loosen top-down clamps. Unlike bottom-up systems that install with tried-and-true bolts and lock washers through captive holes, clamp systems seem less positive in holding capability. If one rail in the proposed design moves in relation to the other, the clamps could loosen and the modules could eventually slide right off the rail. It appears that wind turbulence could rock the modules in the proposed design, there is a lot of leverage for that. This might loosen clamps. I hesitate to design my own racking. Small business management is all about controlling risk. I do not want to be responsible for damaged modules if my design fails. At least one local AHJ forbids home-brew racks for a permitted system. I'm not sure I support that restrictive approach. I might suggest allowing them for owner-builder systems where the home owner assumes the liability. For myself, the remaining tasks associated with installing a system properly have enough pitfalls without me playing structural engineer. And lastly, it is my understanding that Solar World had temporarily abandoned mounting holes in the back rails of their new Plus modules (my quotes) and even abandoned the flanges altogether. According to what I heard, industry pressure forced them to add them back in, but as an option. This is third-hand knowledge, but I do know that removing the option to mount panels with through bolts would be a big mistake. William Miller Here is my “cobulated” idea, admittedly done this way to take advantage of parts in stock: http://www.fafcosolar.com/download/402/Cobulate.pdf -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List
Re: [RE-wrenches] Rail concerns (was: Top of POST mount)
Friends: We broke one hex head bolt in the middle of a rail before we learned a valuable lesson: Always use anti-seize on any bolt you can't allow to break. William Miller At 07:42 AM 3/23/2011, you wrote: Yes, the IronRidge slide in bolt on the top of the rail is a design flaw. They should use drop in T-bolts, like Unirac. What happens when you break one, after installing enphase micro's, and grounding lugs, etc. I've had to cut the bolt off, and install an extra Unirac t-bolt. IronRidge needs to seriously rethink that one. Other than that, I really like their products, especially the dark bronze anodized rail. Looks great under dark framed modules. Mike Nelson MD Electric Solar Gualala, Ca. On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 7:34 AM, mailto:d...@foxfire-energy.comd...@foxfire-energy.com wrote: Yup.. I'm on board with the bolted vs clamp notion for this app.. I also agree with a wider spacing for panel attachments... As for racking manufacturers and design oopsies, anyone have anything nice to say about Iron Ridge roof mounts? Personally, I kinda like the rail design, but the slide in bolt set up seriously sucks.. or Am I missing something.. again? db Dan Brown ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Rail concerns (was: Top of POST mount)
I 2nd William's comment: the anti-seize is especially important on stainless bolts bigger than 1/4. The spalling effect with larger SS hardware has caused me to return to regular plated hardware, if the project isn't near the ocean, and just use SS washers when in contact with Aluminum. Having a 3/8 SS bolt grind itself to a halt before even starting to compress the lock washer, and then have it not back off is a huge time waster. Having to then cut the offending bolt off without damaging the nearby rail or modules is also no fun. All this while dangling from a harness on a steep roof, with the sun about to go away..now we're contemplating retirement. R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Mar 23, 2011, at 9:35 AM, William Miller wrote: Friends: We broke one hex head bolt in the middle of a rail before we learned a valuable lesson: Always use anti-seize on any bolt you can't allow to break. William Miller At 07:42 AM 3/23/2011, you wrote: Yes, the IronRidge slide in bolt on the top of the rail is a design flaw. They should use drop in T-bolts, like Unirac. What happens when you break one, after installing enphase micro's, and grounding lugs, etc. I've had to cut the bolt off, and install an extra Unirac t-bolt. IronRidge needs to seriously rethink that one. Other than that, I really like their products, especially the dark bronze anodized rail. Looks great under dark framed modules. Mike Nelson MD Electric Solar Gualala, Ca. On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 7:34 AM, d...@foxfire-energy.com wrote: Yup.. I'm on board with the bolted vs clamp notion for this app.. I also agree with a wider spacing for panel attachments... As for racking manufacturers and design oopsies, anyone have anything nice to say about Iron Ridge roof mounts? Personally, I kinda like the rail design, but the slide in bolt set up seriously sucks.. or Am I missing something.. again? db Dan Brown ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Rail concerns (was: Top of POST mount)
Friends: When installing modules on extruded rail systems, I worry that any vibration or motion could loosen top-down clamps. Unlike bottom-up systems that install with tried-and-true bolts and lock washers through captive holes, clamp systems seem less positive in holding capability. If one rail in the proposed design moves in relation to the other, the clamps could loosen and the modules could eventually slide right off the rail. It appears that wind turbulence could rock the modules in the proposed design, there is a lot of leverage for that. This might loosen clamps. I hesitate to design my own racking. Small business management is all about controlling risk. I do not want to be responsible for damaged modules if my design fails. At least one local AHJ forbids home-brew racks for a permitted system. I'm not sure I support that restrictive approach. I might suggest allowing them for owner-builder systems where the home owner assumes the liability. For myself, the remaining tasks associated with installing a system properly have enough pitfalls without me playing structural engineer. And lastly, it is my understanding that Solar World had temporarily abandoned mounting holes in the back rails of their new Plus modules (my quotes) and even abandoned the flanges altogether. According to what I heard, industry pressure forced them to add them back in, but as an option. This is third-hand knowledge, but I do know that removing the option to mount panels with through bolts would be a big mistake. William Miller Here is my cobulated idea, admittedly done this way to take advantage of parts in stock: http://www.fafcosolar.com/download/402/Cobulate.pdfhttp://www.fafcosolar.com/download/402/Cobulate.pdf ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
