Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

[frenergy]

Glenn,

   I don't know if this may help About 7 months ago I also 
replaced 2 SWR2500's with a SB5000TL.  Sunwise PVs, system installed 
about 10 years ago.  Just FYI I have had no issues with AFCI however, 
these are installed on a comp roof, DC behind the PVs is USE-2 to the 
adjacent combiner with THWN-2 from the combiner to the DC disco below 
the inverter.


Is the AFCI either on or off?

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric

On 7/22/2016 6:25 PM, Glenn Burt wrote:


August,

I am currently chasing down unexplained AFCI faults with old SX 160 
modules on a metal roof and having replaced two SMA SWR-2500U’s with a 
SB 5000TL-US-22. So far I have been swapping input strings to see if 
there is a pattern, however no joy.


Next visit is up on the roof (steep pitch) to see if there is anything 
obvious.


I hate to simply disable the AFCI functionality without a serious 
effort, however I am approaching that point.


It is a T job for a system installed by others back in 2004, about 
an hour trip 1 way and I am afraid the customer will soon believe I am 
stringing out the work.


Looking forward to hearing more of your experience as it develops!

-Glenn



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

[August Goers]

The system we are dealing with has BP SX3 150S modules, made in India.  I
can’t figure out what year they were made, one serial number is 2011107
2008358. We have two new SMA 5000TL-US-22 inverters.



The arc fault errors happen relatively quickly after startup – they run for
about 5 to 10 minutes and then trip off. We’ve played around with the
strings and isolated one that is particularly bad, but the others all cause
arc faults too.



This is the trouble with servicing old systems.



Best, August



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *jay
*Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2016 7:32 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters



Oh boy.

Which BP models.

I mean those things have had lots of trouble.



jay

peltz power

On Jul 22, 2016, at 8:23 AM, August Goers <aug...@luminalt.com> wrote:



Glen,



It’s interesting you mention that you’re having AFCI issues with new TL
inverters and old modules. We are too. We have a particular system with BP
modules where we’re trying to figure out if we have a warranty claim
situation. We’ve cleaned up all the DC-side wiring and still the Sunny Boy
is tripping with AFCI errors. We think it is either corroded traces in the
modules or perhaps bypass diode issues in the module j-boxes. More to come.



August



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Glenn Burt
*Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2016 5:08 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters



If you read some of the proposed changes for the 2017 NEC, it is looking
life there will be no problem replacing isolated inverters with
non-isolated versions. In fact the proposed wording seems to allow either
USE, or PV wire to be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going
forward.
It made me feel better about doing recent replacements.
I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters and AFCI issues on older
systems, however.
--

*From: *Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar <g...@syvsolar.com>
*Sent: *‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43
*To: *re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
*Subject: *[RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters
when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to
replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could
be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation
purposes? Not clear on the concept.





Gary





Gary Gordon





   www.SYVSolar.com <http://www.syvsolar.com/>

   PO Box 688

   Santa Ynez, CA  93460

   805 688-1213

   NABCEP Certified Installer

   CA Licensed Solar Contractor



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

[jay]

I’m curious about it happening at the same time each day.  I think that is a 
big clue.
Could it be some other interference from some other electrical part?  Motors 
etc?
And what about if its heat related?  IE the roof/modules heating up causing the 
issue?

Curious.

jay

peltz power


> On Jul 24, 2016, at 8:37 AM, Drake <drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> 
> wrote:
> 
> It could easily be a nuisance trip rather than any problem. For sure, you 
> want to check for  possible problems. Big metal roofs are prone to nuisance 
> tripping of the SMA AFCIs. I've been through this. 
> 
> At 09:35 PM 7/23/2016, you wrote:
>> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>  boundary="=_NextPart_000_0001_01D1E52A.1853FE80"
>> Content-Language: en-us
>> 
>> Hi Jerry,
>>  
>> It passes the initial power up tests fine, and fails at almost the same time 
>> of day when it faults with a 4301 Electric Arc Detected. Not usually the 
>> next day, often it will be fine for a week or so.
>> According to the web box, the inverter has the latest available firmware.
>> I am hoping it is a failure at a splice in a rooftop jbox (all are exposed 
>> on the ridge). 
>> I went there last week, but the customer office manager decided she wanted a 
>> written safety plan before she was comfortable letting me climb on the roof, 
>> so I am cogitating on that. 
>>  
>> Thanks for your thoughts.
>> Glenn
>>  
>> From: Jerry Shafer [ mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com 
>> <mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com>] 
>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 11:05 PM
>> To: RE-wrenches; glenn.b...@glbcc.com
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters
>>  
>> 
>> Question, is it the first test where it is checking for noise in the system 
>> or is it finding a fault once it is running. Does it have the latest 
>> software update, which code do you have test failure or arc failt detected, 
>> way different trouble shooting tracks yo follow. If it is a test fail try to 
>> remove just the ground wire from the array, because its a metal roof its a 
>> big antenna and hears something that is to much for the test to deal with. 
>> If it fails due to an arc then there is most likely an arc at a connection.
>> 
>> Jerry
>>  
>> On Jul 22, 2016 3:37 PM, "Glenn Burt" <glenn.b...@glbcc.com 
>> <mailto:glenn.b...@glbcc.com>> wrote:
>> August,
>>  
>> I am currently chasing down unexplained AFCI faults with old SX 160 modules 
>> on a metal roof and having replaced two SMA SWR-2500U’s with a SB 
>> 5000TL-US-22. So far I have been swapping input strings to see if there is a 
>> pattern, however no joy. 
>> Next visit is up on the roof (steep pitch) to see if there is anything 
>> obvious. 
>> I hate to simply disable the AFCI functionality without a serious effort, 
>> however I am approaching that point. 
>> It is a T job for a system installed by others back in 2004, about an hour 
>> trip 1 way and I am afraid the customer will soon believe I am stringing out 
>> the work.
>>  
>> Looking forward to hearing more of your experience as it develops!
>>  
>> -Glenn
>>  
>> From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>> <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] On Behalf Of August Goers
>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 10:23 AM
>> To: RE-wrenches
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters
>>  
>> Glen,
>>  
>> It’s interesting you mention that you’re having AFCI issues with new TL 
>> inverters and old modules. We are too. We have a particular system with BP 
>> modules where we’re trying to figure out if we have a warranty claim 
>> situation. We’ve cleaned up all the DC-side wiring and still the Sunny Boy 
>> is tripping with AFCI errors. We think it is either corroded traces in the 
>> modules or perhaps bypass diode issues in the module j-boxes. More to come.
>>  
>> August
>>  
>> From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>> <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt
>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 5:08 AM
>> To: RE-wrenches
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters
>>  
>> If you read some of the proposed changes for the 2017 NEC, it is looking 
>> life there will be no problem replacing isolated inverters with non-isolated 
>> versions. In fact the proposed wording seems to allow either USE, or PV wire 
>> to be used with non-isolated inverte

Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

[Drake]

It could easily be a nuisance trip rather than 
any problem. For sure, you want to check 
for  possible problems. Big metal roofs are prone 
to nuisance tripping of the SMA AFCIs. I've been through this.


At 09:35 PM 7/23/2016, you wrote:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="=_NextPart_000_0001_01D1E52A.1853FE80"
Content-Language: en-us

Hi Jerry,

It passes the initial power up tests fine, and 
fails at almost the same time of day when it 
faults with a 4301 Electric Arc Detected. Not 
usually the next day, often it will be fine for a week or so.

According to the web box, the inverter has the latest available firmware.
I am hoping it is a failure at a splice in a 
rooftop jbox (all are exposed on the ridge).
I went there last week, but the customer office 
manager decided she wanted a written safety plan 
before she was comfortable letting me climb on 
the roof, so I am cogitating on that.


Thanks for your thoughts.
Glenn

From: Jerry Shafer [mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 11:05 PM
To: RE-wrenches; glenn.b...@glbcc.com
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters


Question, is it the first test where it is 
checking for noise in the system or is it 
finding a fault once it is running. Does it have 
the latest software update, which code do you 
have test failure or arc failt detected, way 
different trouble shooting tracks yo follow. If 
it is a test fail try to remove just the ground 
wire from the array, because its a metal roof 
its a big antenna and hears something that is to 
much for the test to deal with. If it fails due 
to an arc then there is most likely an arc at a connection.


Jerry

On Jul 22, 2016 3:37 PM, "Glenn Burt" 
<<mailto:glenn.b...@glbcc.com>glenn.b...@glbcc.com> wrote:

August,

I am currently chasing down unexplained AFCI 
faults with old SX 160 modules on a metal roof 
and having replaced two SMA SWR-2500U’s with a 
SB 5000TL-US-22. So far I have been swapping 
input strings to see if there is a pattern, however no joy.
Next visit is up on the roof (steep pitch) to 
see if there is anything obvious.
I hate to simply disable the AFCI functionality 
without a serious effort, however I am approaching that point.
It is a T job for a system installed by others 
back in 2004, about an hour trip 1 way and I am 
afraid the customer will soon believe I am stringing out the work.


Looking forward to hearing more of your experience as it develops!

-Glenn

From: RE-wrenches 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers

Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 10:23 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

Glen,

It’s interesting you mention that you’re 
having AFCI issues with new TL inverters and old 
modules. We are too. We have a particular system 
with BP modules where we’re trying to figure 
out if we have a warranty claim situation. 
We’ve cleaned up all the DC-side wiring and 
still the Sunny Boy is tripping with AFCI 
errors. We think it is either corroded traces in 
the modules or perhaps bypass diode issues in the module j-boxes. More to come.


August

From: RE-wrenches 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt

Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 5:08 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

If you read some of the proposed changes for the 
2017 NEC, it is looking life there will be no 
problem replacing isolated inverters with 
non-isolated versions. In fact the proposed 
wording seems to allow either USE, or PV wire to 
be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going forward.

It made me feel better about doing recent replacements.
I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters 
and AFCI issues on older systems, however.


--
From: <mailto:g...@syvsolar.com>Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar
Sent: ‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43
To: 
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters
We are all facing having to replace the old 
transformer based inverters when they run out. 
Really difficult to find replacements. Against 
code to replace with transformer less ones. I 
wonder if a DC/DC transformer could be installed 
just ahead of the transformer less inverter for 
isolation purposes? Not clear on the concept.



Gary


Gary Gordon


   <http://www.syvsolar.com/>www.SYVSolar.com
   PO Box 688
   Santa Ynez, CA  93460
   <tel:805%20688-1213>805 688-1213
   NABCEP Certified Installer
   CA Licensed Solar Contractor


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

[Glenn Burt]

Hi Jerry,

 

It passes the initial power up tests fine, and fails at almost the same time of 
day when it faults with a 4301 Electric Arc Detected. Not usually the next day, 
often it will be fine for a week or so.

According to the web box, the inverter has the latest available firmware.

I am hoping it is a failure at a splice in a rooftop jbox (all are exposed on 
the ridge). 

I went there last week, but the customer office manager decided she wanted a 
written safety plan before she was comfortable letting me climb on the roof, so 
I am cogitating on that. 

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

Glenn

 

From: Jerry Shafer [mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 11:05 PM
To: RE-wrenches; glenn.b...@glbcc.com
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

 

Question, is it the first test where it is checking for noise in the system or 
is it finding a fault once it is running. Does it have the latest software 
update, which code do you have test failure or arc failt detected, way 
different trouble shooting tracks yo follow. If it is a test fail try to remove 
just the ground wire from the array, because its a metal roof its a big antenna 
and hears something that is to much for the test to deal with. If it fails due 
to an arc then there is most likely an arc at a connection.

Jerry

 

On Jul 22, 2016 3:37 PM, "Glenn Burt" <glenn.b...@glbcc.com> wrote:

August,

 

I am currently chasing down unexplained AFCI faults with old SX 160 modules on 
a metal roof and having replaced two SMA SWR-2500U’s with a SB 5000TL-US-22. So 
far I have been swapping input strings to see if there is a pattern, however no 
joy. 

Next visit is up on the roof (steep pitch) to see if there is anything obvious. 

I hate to simply disable the AFCI functionality without a serious effort, 
however I am approaching that point. 

It is a T job for a system installed by others back in 2004, about an hour 
trip 1 way and I am afraid the customer will soon believe I am stringing out 
the work.

 

Looking forward to hearing more of your experience as it develops!

 

-Glenn

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of August Goers
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 10:23 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

 

Glen,

 

It’s interesting you mention that you’re having AFCI issues with new TL 
inverters and old modules. We are too. We have a particular system with BP 
modules where we’re trying to figure out if we have a warranty claim situation. 
We’ve cleaned up all the DC-side wiring and still the Sunny Boy is tripping 
with AFCI errors. We think it is either corroded traces in the modules or 
perhaps bypass diode issues in the module j-boxes. More to come.

 

August

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Glenn Burt
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 5:08 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

 

If you read some of the proposed changes for the 2017 NEC, it is looking life 
there will be no problem replacing isolated inverters with non-isolated 
versions. In fact the proposed wording seems to allow either USE, or PV wire to 
be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going forward.
It made me feel better about doing recent replacements.
I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters and AFCI issues on older systems, 
however.

  _  

From: Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar <mailto:g...@syvsolar.com> 
Sent: ‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters when 
they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to replace 
with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could be installed 
just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation purposes? Not clear 
on the concept.

 

 

Gary

 

 

Gary Gordon

 

   

<http://www.syvsolar.com/> www.SYVSolar.com

   PO Box 688 

   Santa Ynez, CA  93460

   805 688-1213 <tel:805%20688-1213> 

   NABCEP Certified Installer

   CA Licensed Solar Contractor

 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

[Jerry Shafer]

Question, is it the first test where it is checking for noise in the system
or is it finding a fault once it is running. Does it have the latest
software update, which code do you have test failure or arc failt detected,
way different trouble shooting tracks yo follow. If it is a test fail try
to remove just the ground wire from the array, because its a metal roof its
a big antenna and hears something that is to much for the test to deal
with. If it fails due to an arc then there is most likely an arc at a
connection.

Jerry

On Jul 22, 2016 3:37 PM, "Glenn Burt" <glenn.b...@glbcc.com> wrote:

> August,
>
>
>
> I am currently chasing down unexplained AFCI faults with old SX 160
> modules on a metal roof and having replaced two SMA SWR-2500U’s with a SB
> 5000TL-US-22. So far I have been swapping input strings to see if there is
> a pattern, however no joy.
>
> Next visit is up on the roof (steep pitch) to see if there is anything
> obvious.
>
> I hate to simply disable the AFCI functionality without a serious effort,
> however I am approaching that point.
>
> It is a T job for a system installed by others back in 2004, about an
> hour trip 1 way and I am afraid the customer will soon believe I am
> stringing out the work.
>
>
>
> Looking forward to hearing more of your experience as it develops!
>
>
>
> -Glenn
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *August Goers
> *Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2016 10:23 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters
>
>
>
> Glen,
>
>
>
> It’s interesting you mention that you’re having AFCI issues with new TL
> inverters and old modules. We are too. We have a particular system with BP
> modules where we’re trying to figure out if we have a warranty claim
> situation. We’ve cleaned up all the DC-side wiring and still the Sunny Boy
> is tripping with AFCI errors. We think it is either corroded traces in the
> modules or perhaps bypass diode issues in the module j-boxes. More to come.
>
>
>
> August
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Glenn Burt
> *Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2016 5:08 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters
>
>
>
> If you read some of the proposed changes for the 2017 NEC, it is looking
> life there will be no problem replacing isolated inverters with
> non-isolated versions. In fact the proposed wording seems to allow either
> USE, or PV wire to be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going
> forward.
> It made me feel better about doing recent replacements.
> I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters and AFCI issues on older
> systems, however.
> --
>
> *From: *Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar <g...@syvsolar.com>
> *Sent: *‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43
> *To: *re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters
>
> We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters
> when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to
> replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could
> be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation
> purposes? Not clear on the concept.
>
>
>
>
>
> Gary
>
>
>
>
>
> Gary Gordon
>
>
>
>[image: cid:image001.jpg@01D06621.23813A90]
>
>www.SYVSolar.com <http://www.syvsolar.com/>
>
>PO Box 688
>
>Santa Ynez, CA  93460
>
>805 688-1213
>
>NABCEP Certified Installer
>
>CA Licensed Solar Contractor
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

[Glenn Burt]

August,

 

I am currently chasing down unexplained AFCI faults with old SX 160 modules on 
a metal roof and having replaced two SMA SWR-2500U’s with a SB 5000TL-US-22. So 
far I have been swapping input strings to see if there is a pattern, however no 
joy. 

Next visit is up on the roof (steep pitch) to see if there is anything obvious. 

I hate to simply disable the AFCI functionality without a serious effort, 
however I am approaching that point. 

It is a T job for a system installed by others back in 2004, about an hour 
trip 1 way and I am afraid the customer will soon believe I am stringing out 
the work.

 

Looking forward to hearing more of your experience as it develops!

 

-Glenn

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of August Goers
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 10:23 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

 

Glen,

 

It’s interesting you mention that you’re having AFCI issues with new TL 
inverters and old modules. We are too. We have a particular system with BP 
modules where we’re trying to figure out if we have a warranty claim situation. 
We’ve cleaned up all the DC-side wiring and still the Sunny Boy is tripping 
with AFCI errors. We think it is either corroded traces in the modules or 
perhaps bypass diode issues in the module j-boxes. More to come.

 

August

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Glenn Burt
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 5:08 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

 

If you read some of the proposed changes for the 2017 NEC, it is looking life 
there will be no problem replacing isolated inverters with non-isolated 
versions. In fact the proposed wording seems to allow either USE, or PV wire to 
be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going forward.
It made me feel better about doing recent replacements.
I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters and AFCI issues on older systems, 
however.

  _  

From: Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar <mailto:g...@syvsolar.com> 
Sent: ‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters when 
they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to replace 
with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could be installed 
just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation purposes? Not clear 
on the concept.

 

 

Gary

 

 

Gary Gordon

 

   cid:image001.jpg@01D06621.23813A90

<http://www.syvsolar.com/> www.SYVSolar.com

   PO Box 688 

   Santa Ynez, CA  93460

   805 688-1213

   NABCEP Certified Installer

   CA Licensed Solar Contractor

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

[Jerry Shafer]

BP modules had issues with jboxes on some modules, they were being replaced
under conditions because they might catch the roof on fire if it was shake.
Dont recall the model but fires were started in jbox from arcing.

On Jul 22, 2016 7:40 AM, "jay" <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Oh boy.
> Which BP models.
> I mean those things have had lots of trouble.
>
> jay
> peltz power
>
> On Jul 22, 2016, at 8:23 AM, August Goers <aug...@luminalt.com> wrote:
>
> Glen,
>
>
> It’s interesting you mention that you’re having AFCI issues with new TL
> inverters and old modules. We are too. We have a particular system with BP
> modules where we’re trying to figure out if we have a warranty claim
> situation. We’ve cleaned up all the DC-side wiring and still the Sunny Boy
> is tripping with AFCI errors. We think it is either corroded traces in the
> modules or perhaps bypass diode issues in the module j-boxes. More to come.
>
>
> August
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Glenn Burt
> *Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2016 5:08 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters
>
>
> If you read some of the proposed changes for the 2017 NEC, it is looking
> life there will be no problem replacing isolated inverters with
> non-isolated versions. In fact the proposed wording seems to allow either
> USE, or PV wire to be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going
> forward.
> It made me feel better about doing recent replacements.
> I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters and AFCI issues on older
> systems, however.
> --
>
> *From: *Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar <g...@syvsolar.com>
> *Sent: *‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43
> *To: *re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters
> We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters
> when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to
> replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could
> be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation
> purposes? Not clear on the concept.
>
>
>
>
> Gary
>
>
>
>
> Gary Gordon
>
>
>
>www.SYVSolar.com <http://www.syvsolar.com/>
>PO Box 688
>Santa Ynez, CA  93460
>805 688-1213
>NABCEP Certified Installer
>CA Licensed Solar Contractor
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Be nice William ;-)

Hi Gary,

DC can not be transformed without converting it to AC first then back to DC 
again. Probably not feasible to do while tracking the MMP.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Jul 22, 2016, at 12:50 PM, William Miller  wrote:

Gary:

I want one of those DC/DC transformers. Where do you source those?

William Miller

On Jul 21, 2016, at 6:43 PM, Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar > wrote:

> We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters when 
> they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to replace 
> with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could be 
> installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation purposes? 
> Not clear on the concept.
>  
>  
> Gary
>  
>  
> Gary Gordon
>  
>
>www.SYVSolar.com 
>PO Box 688
>Santa Ynez, CA  93460
>805 688-1213
>NABCEP Certified Installer
>CA Licensed Solar Contractor
>  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

[William Miller]

Gary:

I want one of those DC/DC transformers. Where do you source those?

William Miller

> On Jul 21, 2016, at 6:43 PM, Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar 
>  wrote:
> 
> We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters when 
> they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to replace 
> with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could be 
> installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation purposes? 
> Not clear on the concept.
>  
>  
> Gary
>  
>  
> Gary Gordon
>  
>
>www.SYVSolar.com
>PO Box 688
>Santa Ynez, CA  93460
>805 688-1213
>NABCEP Certified Installer
>CA Licensed Solar Contractor
>  
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

[jay]

Oh boy.
Which BP models.  
I mean those things have had lots of trouble.

jay
peltz power
> On Jul 22, 2016, at 8:23 AM, August Goers <aug...@luminalt.com> wrote:
> 
> Glen,
>  
> It’s interesting you mention that you’re having AFCI issues with new TL 
> inverters and old modules. We are too. We have a particular system with BP 
> modules where we’re trying to figure out if we have a warranty claim 
> situation. We’ve cleaned up all the DC-side wiring and still the Sunny Boy is 
> tripping with AFCI errors. We think it is either corroded traces in the 
> modules or perhaps bypass diode issues in the module j-boxes. More to come.
>  
> August
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt
> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 5:08 AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters
>  
> If you read some of the proposed changes for the 2017 NEC, it is looking life 
> there will be no problem replacing isolated inverters with non-isolated 
> versions. In fact the proposed wording seems to allow either USE, or PV wire 
> to be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going forward.
> It made me feel better about doing recent replacements.
> I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters and AFCI issues on older 
> systems, however.
> From: Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar <mailto:g...@syvsolar.com>
> Sent: ‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters
> 
> We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters when 
> they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to replace 
> with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could be 
> installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation purposes? 
> Not clear on the concept.
>  
>  
> Gary
>  
>  
> Gary Gordon
>  
>
>www.SYVSolar.com <http://www.syvsolar.com/>
>PO Box 688 
>Santa Ynez, CA  93460
>805 688-1213
>NABCEP Certified Installer
>CA Licensed Solar Contractor
>  
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

[Jerry Shafer]

In most cases the modules have the thick double insulated whips, now with
some of the older trinas we replaced the whips as they as field
serviceable, as I recall the sharps have not been a problem. there can be
an issue when we get to the old Jbox hard wire systems
Jerry

On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 1:33 AM, Howie Michaelson 
wrote:

> Jerry, what do you do about the module whips which are not double
> insulated?
>
> Howie Michaelson
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
>
> Sun Catcher
> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
> VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner
> 802-272-0004
>
> On Jul 22, 2016 12:20 AM, "Jerry Shafer"  wrote:
>
>> Wrenches
>> We have been replacing TL type inverters for years now, what we do is
>> bring them up to current code or standards which ever is greater, permitted
>> and all. DC wire must be correct or its replaced, not a problem there, now
>> there is a neutral wire. As long as everything is compliant l dont know of
>> an issue, what am l missing.
>> Jerry
>>
>> On Jul 21, 2016 3:43 PM, "Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar" <
>> g...@syvsolar.com> wrote:
>>
>>> We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters
>>> when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to
>>> replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could
>>> be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation
>>> purposes? Not clear on the concept.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gary Gordon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>[image: cid:image001.jpg@01D06621.23813A90]
>>>
>>>www.SYVSolar.com 
>>>
>>>PO Box 688
>>>
>>>Santa Ynez, CA  93460
>>>
>>>805 688-1213
>>>
>>>NABCEP Certified Installer
>>>
>>>CA Licensed Solar Contractor
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>
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>>>
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>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>
>>> Check out or update participant bios:
>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

[August Goers]

This topic came up on the list previously. Since isolated transformer based
inverters are going the way of the dodo, the only reasonable inverter
upgrade choice is to replace old inverters with new transformerless models.
As was previously pointed out here, these modern inverters have much more
robust ground fault and arc fault detection capabilities, so they’re safer
anyway. We just phase tape up the previously grounded white DC
conductor(s), make sure the positive and negatives on the DC side are
switched, and call it a day. I realize that some of the NEC technicalities
are being bent here, but this solution is the lesser of evils.



August





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Glenn Burt
*Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2016 5:08 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters



If you read some of the proposed changes for the 2017 NEC, it is looking
life there will be no problem replacing isolated inverters with
non-isolated versions. In fact the proposed wording seems to allow either
USE, or PV wire to be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going
forward.
It made me feel better about doing recent replacements.
I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters and AFCI issues on older
systems, however.
--

*From: *Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar <g...@syvsolar.com>
*Sent: *‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43
*To: *re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
*Subject: *[RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters
when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to
replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could
be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation
purposes? Not clear on the concept.





Gary





Gary Gordon



   [image: cid:image001.jpg@01D06621.23813A90]

   www.SYVSolar.com <http://www.syvsolar.com/>

   PO Box 688

   Santa Ynez, CA  93460

   805 688-1213

   NABCEP Certified Installer

   CA Licensed Solar Contractor
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

[Glenn Burt]

If you read some of the proposed changes for the 2017 NEC, it is looking life 
there will be no problem replacing isolated inverters with non-isolated 
versions. In fact the proposed wording seems to allow either USE, or PV wire to 
be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going forward.
It made me feel better about doing recent replacements.
I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters and AFCI issues on older systems, 
however.

-Original Message-
From: "Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar" <g...@syvsolar.com>
Sent: ‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43
To: "re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters when
they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to replace
with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could be
installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation
purposes? Not clear on the concept.

 

 

Gary

 

 

Gary Gordon

 

   cid:image001.jpg@01D06621.23813A90

<http://www.syvsolar.com/> www.SYVSolar.com

   PO Box 688 

   Santa Ynez, CA  93460

   805 688-1213

   NABCEP Certified Installer

   CA Licensed Solar Contractor

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

[Howie Michaelson]

Jerry, what do you do about the module whips which are not double insulated?

Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™

Sun Catcher
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner
802-272-0004

On Jul 22, 2016 12:20 AM, "Jerry Shafer"  wrote:

> Wrenches
> We have been replacing TL type inverters for years now, what we do is
> bring them up to current code or standards which ever is greater, permitted
> and all. DC wire must be correct or its replaced, not a problem there, now
> there is a neutral wire. As long as everything is compliant l dont know of
> an issue, what am l missing.
> Jerry
>
> On Jul 21, 2016 3:43 PM, "Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar" <
> g...@syvsolar.com> wrote:
>
>> We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters
>> when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to
>> replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could
>> be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation
>> purposes? Not clear on the concept.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gary Gordon
>>
>>
>>
>>[image: cid:image001.jpg@01D06621.23813A90]
>>
>>www.SYVSolar.com 
>>
>>PO Box 688
>>
>>Santa Ynez, CA  93460
>>
>>805 688-1213
>>
>>NABCEP Certified Installer
>>
>>CA Licensed Solar Contractor
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

[Jerry Shafer]

Wrenches
We have been replacing TL type inverters for years now, what we do is bring
them up to current code or standards which ever is greater, permitted and
all. DC wire must be correct or its replaced, not a problem there, now
there is a neutral wire. As long as everything is compliant l dont know of
an issue, what am l missing.
Jerry

On Jul 21, 2016 3:43 PM, "Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar" <
g...@syvsolar.com> wrote:

> We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters
> when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to
> replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could
> be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation
> purposes? Not clear on the concept.
>
>
>
>
>
> Gary
>
>
>
>
>
> Gary Gordon
>
>
>
>[image: cid:image001.jpg@01D06621.23813A90]
>
>www.SYVSolar.com 
>
>PO Box 688
>
>Santa Ynez, CA  93460
>
>805 688-1213
>
>NABCEP Certified Installer
>
>CA Licensed Solar Contractor
>
>
>
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[RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

[Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar]

We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters when
they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to replace
with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could be
installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation
purposes? Not clear on the concept.

 

 

Gary

 

 

Gary Gordon

 

   cid:image001.jpg@01D06621.23813A90

 www.SYVSolar.com

   PO Box 688 

   Santa Ynez, CA  93460

   805 688-1213

   NABCEP Certified Installer

   CA Licensed Solar Contractor

 

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