Re: [RE-wrenches] Spot welding PV's to rails for theft prevention: bad idea?
Jay, I am broadcasting from the Ozark mountains of MO. We have long been known as a prime pot growing mecca. Those guys were a relatively peacable and mellow lot. We are now the meth manufacturing capital of the US, as ranked by number of busts. These guys and their addicted customers are both violent and enterprising in their theivery. My apologies for getting off topic on the list but as things unravel our products will become increasingly targeted. Something we all will be faced with sooner or later. Nathan Jones On Sun Mar 6th, 2011 11:49 AM CST jay peltz wrote: >HI Nathan, > >I"ll have to try it myself, the cutting disks that is. > >But in the end I guess its what insurance is for. >On that note, has anyone had any requests or reduction in policy from an >insurance company about anti theft hardware? > >jay > >peltz power >On Mar 6, 2011, at 9:38 AM, Nathan Jones wrote: > >> Jay, >> You are so right but the tool of choice these days for the sophisticated >> thief is the cordless angle grinder and a stack of cutting discs from Harbor >> Freight. There has been a flurry of this tools use here of late. Deadbolts, >> padlocks, racks, even safes are dispatched in short order. There is simply >> no way to stop a determined thief. We can only make it difficult enough that >> the end no longer justifies the means but if they want it bad enough, it is >> just a matter of time. >> Nathan Jones >> Power Source Solar >> >> On Sun Mar 6th, 2011 9:45 AM CST jay peltz wrote: >> >>> HI guys, >>> >>> Hate to tell you but someone with a 24v cordless sawzall can have a rack >>> chopped up in minutes, regardless of the mounting hardware. >>> >>> jay >>> >>> peltz power >>> On Mar 5, 2011, at 7:59 AM, Bob-O Schultze wrote: >>> The sad truth is that if a determined, competent thief wants your stuff, it's likely gone. Fortunately, MOST thieves are neither. I use 1/4" stainless steel pop rivets in a situation like this. It takes a grinder to remove them and steal the PV. With a little luck someone will see the sparks from the grinding. Bob-O >>> >>> ___ >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Options & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Options & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >___ >List sponsored by Home Power magazine > >List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > >Options & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Spot welding PV's to rails for theft prevention: bad idea?
HI Nathan, I"ll have to try it myself, the cutting disks that is. But in the end I guess its what insurance is for. On that note, has anyone had any requests or reduction in policy from an insurance company about anti theft hardware? jay peltz power On Mar 6, 2011, at 9:38 AM, Nathan Jones wrote: > Jay, > You are so right but the tool of choice these days for the sophisticated > thief is the cordless angle grinder and a stack of cutting discs from Harbor > Freight. There has been a flurry of this tools use here of late. Deadbolts, > padlocks, racks, even safes are dispatched in short order. There is simply no > way to stop a determined thief. We can only make it difficult enough that the > end no longer justifies the means but if they want it bad enough, it is just > a matter of time. > Nathan Jones > Power Source Solar > > On Sun Mar 6th, 2011 9:45 AM CST jay peltz wrote: > >> HI guys, >> >> Hate to tell you but someone with a 24v cordless sawzall can have a rack >> chopped up in minutes, regardless of the mounting hardware. >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> On Mar 5, 2011, at 7:59 AM, Bob-O Schultze wrote: >> >>> The sad truth is that if a determined, competent thief wants your stuff, >>> it's likely gone. Fortunately, MOST thieves are neither. >>> I use 1/4" stainless steel pop rivets in a situation like this. It takes a >>> grinder to remove them and steal the PV. With a little luck someone will >>> see the sparks from the grinding. >>> Bob-O >>> >>> >> >> ___ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Options & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Spot welding PV's to rails for theft prevention: bad idea?
Jay, You are so right but the tool of choice these days for the sophisticated thief is the cordless angle grinder and a stack of cutting discs from Harbor Freight. There has been a flurry of this tools use here of late. Deadbolts, padlocks, racks, even safes are dispatched in short order. There is simply no way to stop a determined thief. We can only make it difficult enough that the end no longer justifies the means but if they want it bad enough, it is just a matter of time. Nathan Jones Power Source Solar On Sun Mar 6th, 2011 9:45 AM CST jay peltz wrote: >HI guys, > >Hate to tell you but someone with a 24v cordless sawzall can have a rack >chopped up in minutes, regardless of the mounting hardware. > >jay > >peltz power >On Mar 5, 2011, at 7:59 AM, Bob-O Schultze wrote: > >> The sad truth is that if a determined, competent thief wants your stuff, >> it's likely gone. Fortunately, MOST thieves are neither. >> I use 1/4" stainless steel pop rivets in a situation like this. It takes a >> grinder to remove them and steal the PV. With a little luck someone will see >> the sparks from the grinding. >> Bob-O >> >> > >___ >List sponsored by Home Power magazine > >List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > >Options & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Spot welding PV's to rails for theft prevention: bad idea?
HI guys, Hate to tell you but someone with a 24v cordless sawzall can have a rack chopped up in minutes, regardless of the mounting hardware. jay peltz power On Mar 5, 2011, at 7:59 AM, Bob-O Schultze wrote: > The sad truth is that if a determined, competent thief wants your stuff, it's > likely gone. Fortunately, MOST thieves are neither. > I use 1/4" stainless steel pop rivets in a situation like this. It takes a > grinder to remove them and steal the PV. With a little luck someone will see > the sparks from the grinding. > Bob-O > > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Spot welding PV's to rails for theft prevention: bad idea?
The sad truth is that if a determined, competent thief wants your stuff, it's likely gone. Fortunately, MOST thieves are neither. I use 1/4" stainless steel pop rivets in a situation like this. It takes a grinder to remove them and steal the PV. With a little luck someone will see the sparks from the grinding. Bob-O On Mar 4, 2011, at 4:46 PM, Nick Soleil wrote: The BP oil company installed a ton of solar arrays for cathodic protection in the desert near Bakerfield in the 80s and 90s. They used Arco and Kyocera modules at ~50 watts each. They had a terrible time with theft, so they began welding the modules to the racks and the racks to the steel structures. However, the thieves persisted, by cutting the steel substructures with torches to get the modules. Eventually, BP brought in the utility power. Too bad. The good thing was that I got to buy the remaining 600 used modules for a good price. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax: 707-769-9037___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Spot welding PV's to rails for theft prevention: bad idea?
The BP oil company installed a ton of solar arrays for cathodic protection in the desert near Bakerfield in the 80s and 90s. They used Arco and Kyocera modules at ~50 watts each. They had a terrible time with theft, so they began welding the modules to the racks and the racks to the steel structures. However, the thieves persisted, by cutting the steel substructures with torches to get the modules. Eventually, BP brought in the utility power. Too bad. The good thing was that I got to buy the remaining 600 used modules for a good price. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax:707-769-9037 From: Allan Sindelar To: RE-wrenches Sent: Fri, March 4, 2011 4:06:53 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Spot welding PV's to rails for theft prevention: bad idea? Mick, Direct Power did this some years ago on a piece of Interstate roadside art. I think it worked quite well to discourage theft. You might want to call DP&W for info; I'd talk with Jeff. Allan at Positive Energy On Mar 4, 2011 12:22 PM, "Mick Abraham" wrote: > Hello, we mounted some PV onesy modules as high as we could reach without a > man-lift, but an enterprising thief could reach just as high. The "side of > pole" mounts hold the bolt heads captive so I bought some aluminum > "breakaway" nuts. However the nuts have a big diameter which would not fit > inside the Kyocera PV frames. > > Has anyone tried spot welding the PV frames direct to the aluminum rails to > which they are mounted? Would this over stress the glass laminate or cause > other problems? I realize this would void the Kyo warranty but nothing voids > system performance like a stolen PV module. > > Happy Friday, > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Voice: 970-731-4675 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Spot welding PV's to rails for theft prevention: bad idea?
Mick, Direct Power did this some years ago on a piece of Interstate roadside art. I think it worked quite well to discourage theft. You might want to call DP&W for info; I'd talk with Jeff. Allan at Positive Energy On Mar 4, 2011 12:22 PM, "Mick Abraham" wrote: > Hello, we mounted some PV onesy modules as high as we could reach without a > man-lift, but an enterprising thief could reach just as high. The "side of > pole" mounts hold the bolt heads captive so I bought some aluminum > "breakaway" nuts. However the nuts have a big diameter which would not fit > inside the Kyocera PV frames. > > Has anyone tried spot welding the PV frames direct to the aluminum rails to > which they are mounted? Would this over stress the glass laminate or cause > other problems? I realize this would void the Kyo warranty but nothing voids > system performance like a stolen PV module. > > Happy Friday, > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Voice: 970-731-4675 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Spot welding PV's to rails for theft prevention: bad idea?
Mick, I partially belt sanded off one side of the "security" nut flange on the cone part just enough to make it fit on one install. They are still there. Be sure to use gloves that belt sander is rough on the fingers. I resorted to holding with a Vice grip wrench. Even then they flew quite a distance if they came loose. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc E - d...@solarwork.com V - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 web - www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" Do not ever believe anything, but seriously trust through action. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mick Abraham Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 12:22 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Spot welding PV's to rails for theft prevention: bad idea? Hello, we mounted some PV onesy modules as high as we could reach without a man-lift, but an enterprising thief could reach just as high. The "side of pole" mounts hold the bolt heads captive so I bought some aluminum "breakaway" nuts. However the nuts have a big diameter which would not fit inside the Kyocera PV frames. Has anyone tried spot welding the PV frames direct to the aluminum rails to which they are mounted? Would this over stress the glass laminate or cause other problems? I realize this would void the Kyo warranty but nothing voids system performance like a stolen PV module. Happy Friday, Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Voice: 970-731-4675 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Spot welding PV's to rails for theft prevention: bad idea?
From the bit of aluminum welding I've done (MIG not the preferred TIG) I'd say it would be pretty hard to do without damaging the laminate. I actually successfully welded attachments to salvage modules back in the 90s. Also the alloys are probably different between the module and rail, so even if you welded it without damage, the weld probably would just pop off when the industrious thief started twisting and pulling on it. I'd look at using a frame of angle iron over the module edges that captures the module. I've seen racks built this way, and then the 2 frames (upper and lower) can be welded together, or locked with a hasp and padlock) No warranty voided either. The breakaway nuts are a waste, we used them for a while, broke the "special tool" on a job where we needed to remove a module, and within seconds my very trusty old assistant Russ had the expensive security hardware off with a Leatherman, and a vice grips. R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Mar 4, 2011, at 12:22 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: > Hello, we mounted some PV onesy modules as high as we could reach without a > man-lift, but an enterprising thief could reach just as high. The "side of > pole" mounts hold the bolt heads captive so I bought some aluminum > "breakaway" nuts. However the nuts have a big diameter which would not fit > inside the Kyocera PV frames. > > Has anyone tried spot welding the PV frames direct to the aluminum rails to > which they are mounted? Would this over stress the glass laminate or cause > other problems? I realize this would void the Kyo warranty but nothing voids > system performance like a stolen PV module. > > Happy Friday, > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Voice: 970-731-4675 > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Spot welding PV's to rails for theft prevention: bad idea?
Mick Solar World welds their frame corners, but use a laser with high precision and very low heat. I have seen racks in Haiti welded instead of bolted to keep people from walking off with the entire rack. I would not recommend welding a module frame, Too risky and would probably void warranty. Of course you can not warranty a stolen module either! However welding a cross bar to the racking that locks the module in place may be a reasonable alternative because you could weld away from the frame. Use asbestos protection to keep harmful heat away from the module. That just might work, would be harder to replace, but harder to steal also...although some thief would still find a way around it! Now all we need is a way to protect against drunk hunters shooting holes in the modules for target practice! Bill On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 11:22 AM, Mick Abraham wrote: > Hello, we mounted some PV onesy modules as high as we could reach without a > man-lift, but an enterprising thief could reach just as high. The "side of > pole" mounts hold the bolt heads captive so I bought some aluminum > "breakaway" nuts. However the nuts have a big diameter which would not fit > inside the Kyocera PV frames. > > Has anyone tried spot welding the PV frames direct to the aluminum rails to > which they are mounted? Would this over stress the glass laminate or cause > other problems? I realize this would void the Kyo warranty but nothing voids > system performance like a stolen PV module. > > Happy Friday, > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Voice: 970-731-4675 > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Bill Hoffer PE NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC 2504 Columbia Ave NW East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941 suneng...@gmail.com (509)470-7762 Cell(509)679-6165 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Spot welding PV's to rails for theft prevention: bad idea?
Hello, we mounted some PV onesy modules as high as we could reach without a man-lift, but an enterprising thief could reach just as high. The "side of pole" mounts hold the bolt heads captive so I bought some aluminum "breakaway" nuts. However the nuts have a big diameter which would not fit inside the Kyocera PV frames. Has anyone tried spot welding the PV frames direct to the aluminum rails to which they are mounted? Would this over stress the glass laminate or cause other problems? I realize this would void the Kyo warranty but nothing voids system performance like a stolen PV module. Happy Friday, Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Voice: 970-731-4675 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
