Re: [RE-wrenches] Two NEC questions
Morning, The AFCI units are shipping now. There are a few AHJ that are working off 2011 code (including most of Alaska). The TL (240 VAC) with integrated AFCI should be shipping when the new -22 (3k - 5k) come. These are the units with the EPS module. Thanks SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Supervisor, Service Line 6020 West Oaks Blvd, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel: +1 916 625 0870 Fax: +1 916 624-2445 Service Line +1 877 697 6283 (Toll Free) Email: steve.jeffer...@sma-america.com www.SMA-America.com<http://www.sma-america.com/> This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 10:08 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Two NEC questions Wrenches, I wrote back to Bill with the person at SMA who gave the talk and it is possible that I may have been mistaken about the ship date for AFCI-enabled Sunny Boys. Transformerless Sunny Boy US-series units are on the way soon too and I may have gotten mixed up. To be sure, don't take my word for it and check in with your supplier. Anyway, I'm looking forward to trying the AFCI enabled inverters when we can get them and suspect that they will be industry standard well before CA adopts the 2011 NEC in 2014. Best, August ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Two NEC questions
How about off grid arc fault ?? It seems that I don't see much talk or interest in that. Thanks ! boB On 10/14/2012 9:44 AM, Bill Brooks wrote: August, Who at SMA said that they won't be shipping AFCI inverters? I know they have been manufacturing. I have two of the AFCI inverters in operation at my office and they are very impressive. Three months of operation since startup without a single nuisance trip and it trips every time I simulate a fault. I would press SMA on delivery since I believe they are available. It may be either an internal hold on the product or bad information. Eaton has released their AFCI component but it is not a listed component so it has to be incorporated into a listed product like a combiner box or inverter. Although the AFCI technology will have some issues in implementation, I believe that it is going to solve a lot of safety issues, particularly with residential systems. We have been seeing more and more series arc fault failures in the field, so the timing could not be better. Even if you are in a region that does not enforce the 2011 NEC yet, I would recommend seriously looking at products in this area. One word of caution. I believe AFCI products incorporated into inverters will be more successful in the short term than products that are independent of the inverter. The reason for this is simple. When the product developer has the defined noise signature of the inverter, they can build a product that accounts for the that noise signature (transistor switching). Without that key piece of data, there will be stand-alone AFCI products that have problems with particular inverters and other components (dc-dc converters). These interactions are difficult to predict without product by product testing. Over the next few years, products like the one from Eaton will create lists of inverters that they know work well with their products. Until you get some good data on that issue, be careful. Lastly, it is way cool to be able to walk up to a combiner box or plug connector and open it under load and see the inverter trip on the detected arc-fault. These products will become common retrofit items as modules, connectors, combiner boxes, and inverters have connection defects that start fires. Often, the only cost-effective way to fix these connection problems is with detection since replacing PV arrays and other products may be far more costly than installing an AFCI detector. Bill. *From:*re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *August Goers *Sent:* Sunday, October 14, 2012 9:11 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Two NEC questions Hi David and Rebecca - We're still in the 2008 code cycle here in California so AFCI hasn't become an issue yet. I just listened to a webinar by SMA last week and I believe that their AFCI Sunny Boys wont' be shipping for at least a couple of months. Rebecca, have you already installed this system? What type of inverter do you want to use? NEC 90.4 (Enforcement) states this: "This/Code/may require new products, constructions, or materials that may not yet be available at the time the/Code/is adopted. In such event, the authority having jurisdiction may permit the use of the products, constructions, or materials that comply with the most recent previous edition of this/Code/adopted by the jurisdiction." So, you might be able to convince the AHJ to enforce the 2008 NEC which doesn't require AFCI. Or, use microinverters or ACPV as David mentioned below. Good luck out there! -August *From:*re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of *David Brearley *Sent:* Saturday, October 13, 2012 9:02 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Two NEC questions RE Question #2: Article 100 defines a service as: *Service.* The conductors and equipment for delivering electric energy /from/ the serving utility to the wiring system of the premises served. (/emphasis added/) PV system wiring simply does not fit that definition. The PV system is not part of the serving utility. And inverters are not service equipment. You need to refers them to this definition in Article 705.2 (added in NEC 2011): *Power Production Equipment.* The generating source, and /all/ distribution equipment associated with it, that generates electricity from a source /other than/ a utility supplied service. (/emphasis added/) FWIW: Mike Holt has written for SP about the Code requirements for interconnecting PV systems, as well as some additional recommendations for making supply side connections: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP5_1_pg14_QA&search= RE Question #1: I had a local inspector a
Re: [RE-wrenches] Two NEC questions
Wrenches, I wrote back to Bill with the person at SMA who gave the talk and it is possible that I may have been mistaken about the ship date for AFCI-enabled Sunny Boys. Transformerless Sunny Boy US-series units are on the way soon too and I may have gotten mixed up. To be sure, don't take my word for it and check in with your supplier. Anyway, I'm looking forward to trying the AFCI enabled inverters when we can get them and suspect that they will be industry standard well before CA adopts the 2011 NEC in 2014. Best, August *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Bill Brooks *Sent:* Sunday, October 14, 2012 9:44 AM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Two NEC questions August, Who at SMA said that they won’t be shipping AFCI inverters? I know they have been manufacturing. I have two of the AFCI inverters in operation at my office and they are very impressive. Three months of operation since startup without a single nuisance trip and it trips every time I simulate a fault. I would press SMA on delivery since I believe they are available. It may be either an internal hold on the product or bad information. Eaton has released their AFCI component but it is not a listed component so it has to be incorporated into a listed product like a combiner box or inverter. Although the AFCI technology will have some issues in implementation, I believe that it is going to solve a lot of safety issues, particularly with residential systems. We have been seeing more and more series arc fault failures in the field, so the timing could not be better. Even if you are in a region that does not enforce the 2011 NEC yet, I would recommend seriously looking at products in this area. One word of caution. I believe AFCI products incorporated into inverters will be more successful in the short term than products that are independent of the inverter. The reason for this is simple. When the product developer has the defined noise signature of the inverter, they can build a product that accounts for the that noise signature (transistor switching). Without that key piece of data, there will be stand-alone AFCI products that have problems with particular inverters and other components (dc-dc converters). These interactions are difficult to predict without product by product testing. Over the next few years, products like the one from Eaton will create lists of inverters that they know work well with their products. Until you get some good data on that issue, be careful. Lastly, it is way cool to be able to walk up to a combiner box or plug connector and open it under load and see the inverter trip on the detected arc-fault. These products will become common retrofit items as modules, connectors, combiner boxes, and inverters have connection defects that start fires. Often, the only cost-effective way to fix these connection problems is with detection since replacing PV arrays and other products may be far more costly than installing an AFCI detector. Bill. *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [ mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *August Goers *Sent:* Sunday, October 14, 2012 9:11 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Two NEC questions Hi David and Rebecca - We're still in the 2008 code cycle here in California so AFCI hasn't become an issue yet. I just listened to a webinar by SMA last week and I believe that their AFCI Sunny Boys wont' be shipping for at least a couple of months. Rebecca, have you already installed this system? What type of inverter do you want to use? NEC 90.4 (Enforcement) states this: "This *Code* may require new products, constructions, or materials that may not yet be available at the time the *Code* is adopted. In such event, the authority having jurisdiction may permit the use of the products, constructions, or materials that comply with the most recent previous edition of this *Code* adopted by the jurisdiction." So, you might be able to convince the AHJ to enforce the 2008 NEC which doesn't require AFCI. Or, use microinverters or ACPV as David mentioned below. Good luck out there! -August *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *David Brearley *Sent:* Saturday, October 13, 2012 9:02 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Two NEC questions RE Question #2: Article 100 defines a service as: *Service.* The conductors and equipment for delivering electric energy *from * the serving utility to the wiring system of the premises served. (*emphasis added*) PV system wiring simply does not fit that definition. The PV system is not part of the serving utility. And inverters are not service equipment. You need to refers them to this definition in Article 705.2 (added
Re: [RE-wrenches] Two NEC questions
August, Who at SMA said that they won't be shipping AFCI inverters? I know they have been manufacturing. I have two of the AFCI inverters in operation at my office and they are very impressive. Three months of operation since startup without a single nuisance trip and it trips every time I simulate a fault. I would press SMA on delivery since I believe they are available. It may be either an internal hold on the product or bad information. Eaton has released their AFCI component but it is not a listed component so it has to be incorporated into a listed product like a combiner box or inverter. Although the AFCI technology will have some issues in implementation, I believe that it is going to solve a lot of safety issues, particularly with residential systems. We have been seeing more and more series arc fault failures in the field, so the timing could not be better. Even if you are in a region that does not enforce the 2011 NEC yet, I would recommend seriously looking at products in this area. One word of caution. I believe AFCI products incorporated into inverters will be more successful in the short term than products that are independent of the inverter. The reason for this is simple. When the product developer has the defined noise signature of the inverter, they can build a product that accounts for the that noise signature (transistor switching). Without that key piece of data, there will be stand-alone AFCI products that have problems with particular inverters and other components (dc-dc converters). These interactions are difficult to predict without product by product testing. Over the next few years, products like the one from Eaton will create lists of inverters that they know work well with their products. Until you get some good data on that issue, be careful. Lastly, it is way cool to be able to walk up to a combiner box or plug connector and open it under load and see the inverter trip on the detected arc-fault. These products will become common retrofit items as modules, connectors, combiner boxes, and inverters have connection defects that start fires. Often, the only cost-effective way to fix these connection problems is with detection since replacing PV arrays and other products may be far more costly than installing an AFCI detector. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 9:11 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Two NEC questions Hi David and Rebecca - We're still in the 2008 code cycle here in California so AFCI hasn't become an issue yet. I just listened to a webinar by SMA last week and I believe that their AFCI Sunny Boys wont' be shipping for at least a couple of months. Rebecca, have you already installed this system? What type of inverter do you want to use? NEC 90.4 (Enforcement) states this: "This Code may require new products, constructions, or materials that may not yet be available at the time the Code is adopted. In such event, the authority having jurisdiction may permit the use of the products, constructions, or materials that comply with the most recent previous edition of this Code adopted by the jurisdiction." So, you might be able to convince the AHJ to enforce the 2008 NEC which doesn't require AFCI. Or, use microinverters or ACPV as David mentioned below. Good luck out there! -August From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Brearley Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 9:02 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Two NEC questions RE Question #2: Article 100 defines a service as: Service. The conductors and equipment for delivering electric energy from the serving utility to the wiring system of the premises served. (emphasis added) PV system wiring simply does not fit that definition. The PV system is not part of the serving utility. And inverters are not service equipment. You need to refers them to this definition in Article 705.2 (added in NEC 2011): Power Production Equipment. The generating source, and all distribution equipment associated with it, that generates electricity from a source other than a utility supplied service. (emphasis added) FWIW: Mike Holt has written for SP about the Code requirements for interconnecting PV systems, as well as some additional recommendations for making supply side connections: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP5_1_pg14_QA <http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP5_1_pg14_QA&search=> &search= RE Question #1: I had a local inspector ask me about this in late-August & there were relatively few listed products at that time: * SMA America has dc AFCI in their standard SunnyBoy US-series inverters (SB 3000-US, SB 3800-US, SB 4000-US,
Re: [RE-wrenches] Two NEC questions
Hi David and Rebecca - We're still in the 2008 code cycle here in California so AFCI hasn't become an issue yet. I just listened to a webinar by SMA last week and I believe that their AFCI Sunny Boys wont' be shipping for at least a couple of months. Rebecca, have you already installed this system? What type of inverter do you want to use? NEC 90.4 (Enforcement) states this: "This *Code* may require new products, constructions, or materials that may not yet be available at the time the *Code* is adopted. In such event, the authority having jurisdiction may permit the use of the products, constructions, or materials that comply with the most recent previous edition of this *Code* adopted by the jurisdiction." So, you might be able to convince the AHJ to enforce the 2008 NEC which doesn't require AFCI. Or, use microinverters or ACPV as David mentioned below. Good luck out there! -August *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *David Brearley *Sent:* Saturday, October 13, 2012 9:02 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Two NEC questions RE Question #2: Article 100 defines a service as: *Service.* The conductors and equipment for delivering electric energy *from * the serving utility to the wiring system of the premises served. (*emphasis added*) PV system wiring simply does not fit that definition. The PV system is not part of the serving utility. And inverters are not service equipment. You need to refers them to this definition in Article 705.2 (added in NEC 2011): *Power Production Equipment.* The generating source, and *all* distribution equipment associated with it, that generates electricity from a source *other than* a utility supplied service. (*emphasis added*) FWIW: Mike Holt has written for SP about the Code requirements for interconnecting PV systems, as well as some additional recommendations for making supply side connections: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP5_1_pg14_QA&search= RE Question #1: I had a local inspector ask me about this in late-August & there were relatively few listed products at that time: - SMA America has dc AFCI in their standard SunnyBoy US-series inverters (SB 3000-US, SB 3800-US, SB 4000-US, SB 5000-US, SB 6000-US, SB7000-US, SB 8000-US): http://www.sma-america.com/en_US/news-information/current-news/news/news/1487.html - Microinverter systems (Enphase, Enecsys, etc.) typically do not operate above 80 Vdc and are therefore exempt from 690.11 - AC module systems (powered by SolarBridge, Exeltech, etc.) typically do not operate above 80 Vdc and are therefore exempt from 690.11 - SolarBOS reportedly has a dc AFDI and GFI combiner box: http://www.solarbos.com/news/solarbos-puts-out-the-fire-in-pv-systems (However, I don't see this product on their website under their regular lists of products.) - While module-level dc-to-dc converters—like those from SolarEdge and Tigo Energy—presumably have the ability to provide dc AFCI capabilities, last I checked it didn't look like any of them were formally listed to do so. I suspect that most manufacturers are trying to avoid spending additional money on testing until the market requires this. Have any wrenches here actually had an inspector required dc AFCI? Also, is the dc AFCI test standard actually finalized and adopted at this point or are companies testing to a draft standard? David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Oct 13, 2012, at 10:12 AM, Rebecca Lundberg wrote: Dear fellow wrenches, Does anyone have suggestions for the 'best' way to keep up with product availability for meeting 690.11 on DC AFCI? I understand that when this code section was written there was no available device, and know that at least several companies are working on devices. How will I know (before the AHJ knows :-) that residential-scale products are available for purchase, and at what point would you say now should be required over every other option? Second question: I have an inspector insisting that the solar PV system is the same as a utility service, and is requiring all of the required service code references to apply. Anybody have a concise reference that might convince him otherwise? This same inspector has decided that the electrical permit will have adders for each inverter as service equipment, and each module as an electrical device. It would sure be nice if there was more consistency...we're still in the early adopter phase here in Minnesota. Thanks in advance for your input. Keep Shining! Rebecca Lundberg NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ® Owner/CEO, Powerfully Green rebecca.lundb...@powerfullygreen.com 763-438-1976
Re: [RE-wrenches] Two NEC questions
Midnite Solar has some DC arc fault equipment both built into their charge controllers (for battery based systems) and their Combiner boxes. The nice thing about having AFCI at the combiner is that it actually protects the wiring from the array to the inverter, so if an arc is occurring in say the attic, it will interrupt the electricity at its source, not at the load. Ray Walters On 10/13/2012 9:12 AM, Rebecca Lundberg wrote: Dear fellow wrenches, Does anyone have suggestions for the 'best' way to keep up with product availability for meeting 690.11 on DC AFCI? I understand that when this code section was written there was no available device, and know that at least several companies are working on devices. How will I know (before the AHJ knows :-) that residential-scale products are available for purchase, and at what point would you say now should be required over every other option? Second question: I have an inspector insisting that the solar PV system is the same as a utility service, and is requiring all of the required service code references to apply. Anybody have a concise reference that might convince him otherwise? This same inspector has decided that the electrical permit will have adders for each inverter as service equipment, and each module as an electrical device. It would sure be nice if there was more consistency...we're still in the early adopter phase here in Minnesota. Thanks in advance for your input. Keep Shining! Rebecca Lundberg NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ® Owner/CEO, Powerfully Green rebecca.lundb...@powerfullygreen.com 763-438-1976 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Two NEC questions
Rebecca, First off, nice install on the four SiE pole mounts! Second, as long as we are talking strictly grid-tied systems, not AC coupled or battery backup, it seems like Solar should be viewed more like an appliance. It supplements the service at your house. That being said, you've got a tough battle ahead. Hopefully someone else on the list has a great way of calming this inspector down with some good old code lullibies. Good luck! Sometimes it feels like the Solar 'cops', I mean inspectors, are trying to justify their jobs. Alex Cozine NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer Journeyman Electrician EL01 www.brotherselectricsolar.com On Oct 13, 2012 8:13 AM, "Rebecca Lundberg" < rebecca.lundb...@powerfullygreen.com> wrote: > Dear fellow wrenches, > > Does anyone have suggestions for the 'best' way to keep up with product > availability for meeting 690.11 on DC AFCI? I understand that when this > code section was written there was no available device, and know that at > least several companies are working on devices. How will I know (before the > AHJ knows :-) that residential-scale products are available for purchase, > and at what point would you say now should be required over every other > option? > > Second question: I have an inspector insisting that the solar PV system is > the same as a utility service, and is requiring all of the required service > code references to apply. Anybody have a concise reference that might > convince him otherwise? This same inspector has decided that the electrical > permit will have adders for each inverter as service equipment, and each > module as an electrical device. It would sure be nice if there was more > consistency...we're still in the early adopter phase here in Minnesota. > > Thanks in advance for your input. > > Keep Shining! > Rebecca Lundberg > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ® > Owner/CEO, Powerfully Green > rebecca.lundb...@powerfullygreen.com > 763-438-1976 > > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Two NEC questions
You can see what products UL has listed (though not other NRTLs) at: www.ul.com Near the bottom of the page on the right hand side click on: Online Certifications Directory Into the UL Category Code box enter: QIDC (for inverters with integrated dc arc-fault) or QIDC2 (for dc arc-fault components) And hit search. Only SMA and Eaton presently. I imagine that as more products become available more press releases will follow as well. You can also download a copy of the UL Whitebook to cross check other standards with the NEC. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ R031508-59 IREC ISPQ Certified Affiliated Instructor/PV US-0132 PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Rebecca Lundberg < rebecca.lundb...@powerfullygreen.com> wrote: > Dear fellow wrenches, > > Does anyone have suggestions for the 'best' way to keep up with product > availability for meeting 690.11 on DC AFCI? I understand that when this > code section was written there was no available device, and know that at > least several companies are working on devices. How will I know (before the > AHJ knows :-) that residential-scale products are available for purchase, > and at what point would you say now should be required over every other > option? > > Second question: I have an inspector insisting that the solar PV system is > the same as a utility service, and is requiring all of the required service > code references to apply. Anybody have a concise reference that might > convince him otherwise? This same inspector has decided that the electrical > permit will have adders for each inverter as service equipment, and each > module as an electrical device. It would sure be nice if there was more > consistency...we're still in the early adopter phase here in Minnesota. > > Thanks in advance for your input. > > Keep Shining! > Rebecca Lundberg > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ® > Owner/CEO, Powerfully Green > rebecca.lundb...@powerfullygreen.com > 763-438-1976 > > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Two NEC questions
RE Question #2: Article 100 defines a service as: Service. The conductors and equipment for delivering electric energy from the serving utility to the wiring system of the premises served. (emphasis added) PV system wiring simply does not fit that definition. The PV system is not part of the serving utility. And inverters are not service equipment. You need to refers them to this definition in Article 705.2 (added in NEC 2011): Power Production Equipment. The generating source, and all distribution equipment associated with it, that generates electricity from a source other than a utility supplied service. (emphasis added) FWIW: Mike Holt has written for SP about the Code requirements for interconnecting PV systems, as well as some additional recommendations for making supply side connections: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP5_1_pg14_QA&search= RE Question #1: I had a local inspector ask me about this in late-August & there were relatively few listed products at that time: SMA America has dc AFCI in their standard SunnyBoy US-series inverters (SB 3000-US, SB 3800-US, SB 4000-US, SB 5000-US, SB 6000-US, SB7000-US, SB 8000-US): http://www.sma-america.com/en_US/news-information/current-news/news/news/1487.html Microinverter systems (Enphase, Enecsys, etc.) typically do not operate above 80 Vdc and are therefore exempt from 690.11 AC module systems (powered by SolarBridge, Exeltech, etc.) typically do not operate above 80 Vdc and are therefore exempt from 690.11 SolarBOS reportedly has a dc AFDI and GFI combiner box: http://www.solarbos.com/news/solarbos-puts-out-the-fire-in-pv-systems (However, I don't see this product on their website under their regular lists of products.) While module-level dc-to-dc converters—like those from SolarEdge and Tigo Energy—presumably have the ability to provide dc AFCI capabilities, last I checked it didn't look like any of them were formally listed to do so. I suspect that most manufacturers are trying to avoid spending additional money on testing until the market requires this. Have any wrenches here actually had an inspector required dc AFCI? Also, is the dc AFCI test standard actually finalized and adopted at this point or are companies testing to a draft standard? David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Oct 13, 2012, at 10:12 AM, Rebecca Lundberg wrote: > Dear fellow wrenches, > > Does anyone have suggestions for the 'best' way to keep up with product > availability for meeting 690.11 on DC AFCI? I understand that when this code > section was written there was no available device, and know that at least > several companies are working on devices. How will I know (before the AHJ > knows :-) that residential-scale products are available for purchase, and at > what point would you say now should be required over every other option? > > Second question: I have an inspector insisting that the solar PV system is > the same as a utility service, and is requiring all of the required service > code references to apply. Anybody have a concise reference that might > convince him otherwise? This same inspector has decided that the electrical > permit will have adders for each inverter as service equipment, and each > module as an electrical device. It would sure be nice if there was more > consistency...we're still in the early adopter phase here in Minnesota. > > Thanks in advance for your input. > > Keep Shining! > Rebecca Lundberg > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ® > Owner/CEO, Powerfully Green > rebecca.lundb...@powerfullygreen.com > 763-438-1976 > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Two NEC questions
Dear fellow wrenches, Does anyone have suggestions for the 'best' way to keep up with product availability for meeting 690.11 on DC AFCI? I understand that when this code section was written there was no available device, and know that at least several companies are working on devices. How will I know (before the AHJ knows :-) that residential-scale products are available for purchase, and at what point would you say now should be required over every other option? Second question: I have an inspector insisting that the solar PV system is the same as a utility service, and is requiring all of the required service code references to apply. Anybody have a concise reference that might convince him otherwise? This same inspector has decided that the electrical permit will have adders for each inverter as service equipment, and each module as an electrical device. It would sure be nice if there was more consistency...we're still in the early adopter phase here in Minnesota. Thanks in advance for your input. Keep Shining! Rebecca Lundberg NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ® Owner/CEO, Powerfully Green rebecca.lundb...@powerfullygreen.com 763-438-1976 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
